Cheating. How would you handle this situation?

[S2B]

If she can’t make it to the bathroom on her own (and control herself) why isn’t she wearing an adult diaper?

does she shower herself? Can she still cook?

[Romans_2]

14 minutes ago, S2B said:

If she can’t make it to the bathroom on her own (and control herself) why isn’t she wearing an adult diaper?

does she shower herself? Can she still cook?

She often can't control her urination and thus always wears pads. I have suggested adult diapers or Depends etc., but I guess it's more embarassing to wear those than it is to have to change underwear multiple times per day. And she also often cannot feel the poop coming on. She does generally take care of these things herself, but since she cannot go down in the basement where our washer and dryer are (she can't do steps) I am the sole laundry washer. And then she will do the folding and putting away of the clothes, except for the ones that are hard for her to reach, such as towels that are up on a shelf. She showers herself, but has fallen in the shower while I was out doing chores and could not get up nor call because she couldn't get out of it. She could cook, but she won't stand long enough to do it. She tries to do everything seated in an office chair. More stuff I have tried multiple times encouraging her to do more of--the standing I mean, with not much response. It would definitely help her osteoporosis. I cook all the meals. Sometimes she will help with chopping and grating--that kind of stuff.

[BaileyB]

15 minutes ago, Romans_2 said:

Happy wife, happy life became my motto.

That motto does not hold true if your wife is a miserable and abusive. Quite literally, it does not matter what you do - she will not be happy. And, as you have learned, there is no peace or happiness to be found for you in this relationship. 
 

16 minutes ago, Romans_2 said:

RA can be very debilitating, but I think her biggest problem is her weight at around 300 pounds.

Indeed, many people with RA work for a living and lead a productive and happy life. Her “inability to care for herself” is not explained by the fact that she has an autoimmunine disease alone.

How exactly does any of this affect her ability to use a toilet?
 

20 minutes ago, Romans_2 said:

She believes or did for a long time that God told her he was going to heal her leg, so she never went and got it fixed.

Again, this is obviously illogical. I don’t know how you stay with a woman who chooses not to help herself and abuses you in her misery.

[Romans_2]

6 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

 

Indeed, many people with RA work for a living and lead a productive and happy life. Her “inability to care for herself” is not explained by the fact that she has an autoimmunine disease alone.

How exactly does any of this affect her ability to use a toilet?
 

I also know quite a few people with RA who accomplish a great deal. She can use a toilet, but frequently cannot control urine flow on the way to the bathroom, and also has lack of bowel movement control frequently. In all honesty, I believe that much of her trouble is due to both her weight, and unwillingness to do what it takes to get herself better. And, quite frankly I have many, many times encouraged her to take charge of herself and do as much for herself as she can--but--you know the whole, you can lead a horse to water, but can't make them drink thing.

[basil67]

10 minutes ago, Romans_2 said:

I cook all the meals. Sometimes she will help with chopping and grating--that kind of stuff.

You mentioned her weight being a problem...I'd sort of guessed that from what you wrote previously.

But if you're cooking, you have absolute control over her calorie intake.   Is she losing weight under your food prep?

[BaileyB]

8 minutes ago, Romans_2 said:

I have many, many times encouraged her to take charge of herself and do as much for herself as she can--but--you know the whole, you can lead a horse to water, but can't make them drink thing.

You can refuse to clean up after her though…

She can see a physician or a physiotherapist who specializes in the pelvic floor to improve her situation - but, I’m going to assume that you will say that she is unwilling to seek help… she would prefer to be incontinent and have you clean her soiled clothing and your home. 

Edited August 9 by BaileyB

[Romans_2]

Just now, BaileyB said:

You can refuse to clean up after her though…

She can see a physician or a physiotherapist who specializes in the pelvic floor - but, I’m going to assume that you will say that she is unwilling to seek help… she would prefer to be in continent and have you clean her soiled clothing and your home. 

I think I should refuse. I have done so before and then she's tried to put me on a major guilt trip over it. She has generally been unwilling to seek help. She did go to a doctor who specialized in bladder issues once, then didn't like his solution and didn't ever make another attempt. Every attempt she has made was because I was the one making the appointment. Apparently she has no desire to help herself. She won't even try kegel exercises. 

[Romans_2]

5 minutes ago, basil67 said:

You mentioned her weight being a problem...I'd sort of guessed that from what you wrote previously.

But if you're cooking, you have absolute control over her calorie intake.   Is she losing weight under your food prep?

She told me that she weighed herself today and was down 10-15 pounds from what she weighed a month and a half ago. I'm not making nor buying goodies and trying to cook more nutritious meals. I personally have to adhere to the Mediterranean diet or something close because I am pre-diabetic, so I prepare a lot of things with veggies and low carbs. I'm distrustful of her weight loss claim though.

[BaileyB]

6 minutes ago, Romans_2 said:

I have done so before and then she's tried to put me on a major guilt trip over it.

It sounds like she was successful because you continue to do it.

Perhaps, if you refused to do it and/or left the home/separated, that would be the “encouragement” that she needs to get herself on a better, healthier and more independent path…

Given her health issues, mobility issues, and incontinence, have you considered  assistive living or a nursing/care home? 

Edited August 9 by BaileyB

[Gebidozo]

7 hours ago, Romans_2 said:

So still the story is the same--I can't hurt someone even if it would make things better for me. 

You are hurting your wife now. You’re having a prolonged affair with another woman that you profess to love.

You’ve been hurting her ever since you married her without really loving her.

By staying with your wife and thus depriving her of the chance to find happiness with another man, someone who’d love her, you are hurting her much more permanently than if you divorce her.

Don’t you think that an incurable, lethal chronic disease is worse than a terribly painful surgery that gets rid of it?

I’m not saying that you’re a bad guy, not at all. But in matters of love, that’s how it is. Good people can hurt others just as much as bad people. 

 

[basil67]

Let's roll this back: You don't like your wife and you're there from a sense of duty.  She refuses to help herself and sends you on a guilt trip if you try and make changes.  

This is really more of the same inertia which has plagued you for all these years - being in a bad situation and choosing to tolerate it rather than doing being proactive.   You may have been spineless in the past, but how about finding that spine now!   So choose to use it

Tell her you're tired of washing all the underwear and it's continence underwear or care facility.  If she won't see the right doctors to manage her health, it's a care facility.  If she puts you on a guilt trip, walk out the door without a word and go out for a few hours.  If she keeps it up, it's care facility.   

Either way, it will improve your life.   A) she gets her act together and both your lives improve   B) she goes into a care facility and you can be with your affair partner.  Given how toxic your home situation sounds (you cheating and your wife's rude behaivour), I think that B is the best option.  But A is still better than what you've got going on now

Edited August 9 by basil67

[Gebidozo]

7 hours ago, Romans_2 said:

In addition to not wanting to hurt Jack she doesn't want to be divorced a third time.

That’s a strange reasoning. It’s like saying you don’t want a third heart surgery. The problem is heart attacks and whatever causes them, not surgery.

 

7 hours ago, Romans_2 said:

It's complicated further by the fact that she and I are both Christian ( bad Christians right now) and the Bible only gives adultery as the reason for divorce

Though I’m Christian myself, I could never understand Christians who justify committing a bigger sin with their desire not to commit a lesser one. Surely divorce is preferable to the adultery you guys have been living in for ten years?

 

[basil67]

10 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Either way, it will improve your life.   A) she gets her act together and both your lives improve   B) she goes into a care facility and you can be with your affair partner.  Given how toxic your home situation sounds (you cheating and your wife's rude behaivour), I think that B is the best option.  But A is still better than what you've got going on now

Ah, I just read that your AP doesn't want to divorce her husband.  Apparently things aren't so bad on her end....and being with him out of guilt is still preferable to being with you

[S2B]

At the bare minimum why haven’t you required her to wear depends so you don’t have soiled underwear to wash?

if she won’t participate by making it easier to look out after her then make it clear you will leave within a week. She will need to make arrangements for her own care.

the other woman likes being married AND having a boyfriend (the ego feed). As much as you like this you may not be able to get her to leave her marriage.

 

[Romans_2]

2 hours ago, S2B said:

if she won’t participate by making it easier to look out after her then make it clear you will leave within a week. She will need to make arrangements for her own care.

the other woman likes being married AND having a boyfriend (the ego feed). As much as you like this you may not be able to get her to leave her marriage.

 

This is what I've never understood in these situations as why the man who in my case paid for the house has to be the one to leave it? I know that it's the threat of it that may cause her to shape up, or may not.
If I divorce my wife, I'm not going to ask Barb to leave her marriage. If she makes that choice, it will be hers alone. I have never put any pressure on Barb to do so.

[Romans_2]

3 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

Though I’m Christian myself, I could never understand Christians who justify committing a bigger sin with their desire not to commit a lesser one. Surely divorce is preferable to the adultery you guys have been living in for ten years?

 

Well, when you put it that way, you're absolutely right.

[basil67]

1 hour ago, Romans_2 said:

This is what I've never understood in these situations as why the man who in my case paid for the house has to be the one to leave it? I know that it's the threat of it that may cause her to shape up, or may not.
 

Speak to a lawyer about this.   I know of splits where both stayed in the house during the divorce process....but rules can vary across different jurisdictions

Edited August 9 by basil67

[FredEire]

Reading more about this situation, I think you would be better off leaving this marriage no matter what. If Barb doesn't leave her husband you'd honestly be better off alone than sticking it out with this. You are meant to be this woman's loving husband not her carer, it sounds horrible and very bad for both of you.

If you are out of the marriage and it doesn't work out with Barb you could meet someone else you love more who is more suitable, or at the very least if you didn't end up meeting anyone you can focus on improving yourself and enjoying your life and you'll know that at the very least you did the right thing.

As I said before we only have one life, it comes down to that. We can't live in the fear of not hurting someone, while in the process only hurting them and yourself more.

Edited August 9 by FredEire

[Romans_2]

29 minutes ago, FredEire said:

Reading more about this situation, I think you would be better off leaving this marriage no matter what. If Barb doesn't leave her husband you'd honestly be better off alone than sticking it out with this. You are meant to be this woman's loving husband not her carer, it sounds horrible and very bad for both of you.

If you are out of the marriage and it doesn't work out with Barb you could meet someone else you love more who is more suitable, or at the very least if you didn't end up meeting anyone you can focus on improving yourself and enjoying your life and you'll know that at the very least you did the right thing.

As I said before we only have one life, it comes down to that. We can't live in the fear of not hurting someone, while in the process only hurting them and yourself more.

It's funny because in an original post like this, with as much back story as it has, it's only possible to give some kind of caricature of what has and is happening. In some ways I have portrayed my wife as being a total narcissist, which isn't true. She is definitely self-centered to a large degree, but can sometimes be kind, funny, helpful, even loving. It's that contradiction in character that makes me want to stick with it and keep giving encouragement to perhaps help her overcome her own inner demons. And those moments of kindness and real humanity she displays are what makes me feel guilty for considering divorce. Yet I do believe your advice and the advice of others to do this is most likely appropriate.
But, you know, I can't explain all that in an OP and expect someone to read it. The complete story would probably be novel length.

[heartwhole2]

1 hour ago, Romans_2 said:

It's funny because in an original post like this, with as much back story as it has, it's only possible to give some kind of caricature of what has and is happening. In some ways I have portrayed my wife as being a total narcissist, which isn't true. She is definitely self-centered to a large degree, but can sometimes be kind, funny, helpful, even loving. It's that contradiction in character that makes me want to stick with it and keep giving encouragement to perhaps help her overcome her own inner demons. And those moments of kindness and real humanity she displays are what makes me feel guilty for considering divorce. Yet I do believe your advice and the advice of others to do this is most likely appropriate.
But, you know, I can't explain all that in an OP and expect someone to read it. The complete story would probably be novel length.

That's certainly the case; I've experienced it myself. 

I think what your first few posts revealed was that you are burying the lede. You are very focused on small moments with your wife as a possible justification for your actions, when in fact it's the general helplessness of the situation that is hard to bear. Anyone would be overwhelmed with caretaking in this situation, and you and your wife both need to face the realities of her needs and figure out what is best for her. 

 

9 hours ago, Romans_2 said:

This is what I've never understood in these situations as why the man who in my case paid for the house has to be the one to leave it? I know that it's the threat of it that may cause her to shape up, or may not.
If I divorce my wife, I'm not going to ask Barb to leave her marriage. If she makes that choice, it will be hers alone. I have never put any pressure on Barb to do so.

Just like with the reasons why you and Barb won't divorce, this a pretty specious argument for refusing to leave an unhappy situation. The law certainly doesn't recognize it as your house alone, and remaining as a caretaker simply because you earned the paycheck that paid for the house just sounds like an excuse. There are many unfair things about this situation, but the fact that you chose to the breadwinner in your family structure is not one of them. And as you know when you're not grasping at straws, this situation is just as unfair to your wife, and even more so, as she is the one whose body has failed her.

At this juncture, I would recommend that you see a therapist. You can start brainstorming ways to make the situation more tenable, and you can work on yourself so that you will be in a better headspace to take decisive action. 

[FredEire]

1 hour ago, Romans_2 said:

It's funny because in an original post like this, with as much back story as it has, it's only possible to give some kind of caricature of what has and is happening. In some ways I have portrayed my wife as being a total narcissist, which isn't true. She is definitely self-centered to a large degree, but can sometimes be kind, funny, helpful, even loving. It's that contradiction in character that makes me want to stick with it and keep giving encouragement to perhaps help her overcome her own inner demons. And those moments of kindness and real humanity she displays are what makes me feel guilty for considering divorce. Yet I do believe your advice and the advice of others to do this is most likely appropriate.
But, you know, I can't explain all that in an OP and expect someone to read it. The complete story would probably be novel length.

None of what you said there is unusual. I believe 99% of people have some really great qualities to them in their relationships and this is what keeps people with them.

My ex for example could be kind, empathetic and loving. She was an extremely good listener and she gave great advice when it came to sharing my personal problems around friends, family, job etc. Unfortunately she was also manipulative and extremely jealous.

Yes there may be a few genuine psychopaths out there but the vast majority of people are not 100% "toxic". Unfortunately those good qualities can't really make up for the other stuff that leaves you profoundly miserable, it isn't worth it.

Bottom line you've been having an affair and you're fantasising about running away with Barb, it isn't working and it sounds like it hasn't worked for a long time, just because your wife has a few qualities that you appreciate doesn't change this fact. 

[mark clemson]

I get the sense you are as much a caretaker to this woman as anything else. To my mind, any "harm" you are doing by meeting your needs via an affair needs to be balanced against the impact on her of you divorcing her. Would she struggle more and perhaps eventually literally die via self-neglect/her medical issues? Perhaps this is part of why you are choosing not to leave - unlike many men, you can't sit right with "abandoning" her due to all her problems. So you are choosing to stay. 

If this is the case, I'm not sure it makes sense to claim in the larger picture that you're doing her harm via an affair. Perhaps the "harm" and help balance out vs what would likely happen if you left.

If you are asking what others would do in your situation - quite honestly I don't think I could bring myself to be intimate with the woman you describe. IF I felt too guilty to simply leave/divorce, I suppose I might end up doing something similar to what you seem to be doing .

[Romans_2]

48 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

I get the sense you are as much a caretaker to this woman as anything else. To my mind, any "harm" you are doing by meeting your needs via an affair needs to be balanced against the impact on her of you divorcing her. Would she struggle more and perhaps eventually literally die via self-neglect/her medical issues? Perhaps this is part of why you are choosing not to leave - unlike many men, you can't sit right with "abandoning" her due to all her problems. So you are choosing to stay. 

 

Yes. You have hit the nail on the head as far as the way I see things.

[S2B]

You can help all you want - but if she isn’t helping herself first - it’s a lost cause.

start making her do more by you doing less.

and get honest with her by letting her know you’ve considered exiting the marriage.

[heartwhole2]

Now that we've heard more of your story, I do understand why you have unmet needs. The tricky thing is that we don't know if your wife is aware and OK with you stepping outside of the marriage on some level, and it's really not fair to take away someone's autonomy based on a hunch or a wish. But it's also not fair for you to be stuck in a caretaking role without your needs met. Unfortunately, life isn't always fair, and all you can do is be honest, with yourself to start, and take it from there. I do think you've fixated on minor things having to do with religion and interactions with your wife to justify your actions, rather than just saying, "I don't want to get a divorce, but I have needs too, so I'm going to deceive to get them met."  So you and Barb are pretending that of course you would leave your spouses for each other, except oh darn, forces beyond your control . . . But then you would be the guy who left a sick and loyal wife, and you would have to deal with the anger and disappointment of your children and community. And Barb clearly has her own reasons for staying too. 

It's possible that your wife would take charge of her own health if she knew all the facts, and that you two could have a better marriage, or she could manage her life without you. You've taken the path of least resistance, which seems to suit your personality. It's helpful to own that, rather than blaming it on external factors. There could have been, or still could be, a path in which you are honest and do not deceive anyone and still get your needs met. You have heretofore chosen not to find out if that can happen. Now what you fear may happen as well . . . things falling apart, you being alone and Barb being less interested when you are more available, everyone blaming you and pitying your wife, etc. I think these possible outcomes are influenced by how honest and healthy you are. Now you're already quite far down the dishonest path, and therefore there may be no coming back from this. 

Again, my advice is to get healthy, get into therapy, own your choices, and then figure out how to make your home life as healthy as possible.