Men need to stop being doormats

[Outcast]

Once again, becoming aggressive and bitter is not the opposite of being spineless. Being at peace with yourself and the world and knowing what you want and going for it is. That this person likes you doesn't necessarily mean she's in fine shape herself. She may have issues which drew you to her. There are heaps of relationships that chug along because two dysfunctional people found each other and met each other's needs.

[Woggle]

Once again, becoming aggressive and bitter is not the opposite of being spineless. Being at peace with yourself and the world and knowing what you want and going for it is. That this person likes you doesn't necessarily mean she's in fine shape herself. She may have issues which drew you to her. There are heaps of relationships that chug along because two dysfunctional people found each other and met each other's needs.

 

She is actually the most together woman I have ever known. She has this passion and zest for life and this romantic nature that just drives me wild.n She totally gets it about life and she has helped open up a side of me that was buried. I am actually a nicer person offline than I come across here but I do not bite my tongue. If I think it I will say it.

[lindya]

Also like I always tell other women around here if what I say does not apply to you I am not talking about you.

 

Woggle - I'm not black, but if I hear people making insulting or degrading generalisations about people who are then I get pissed off. I'm not French - but I get fed up with hearing my fellow countrymen slag off the French (and equally fed up hearing the French slagging us off in return!). I don't have to feel that a generalisation applies to me in order to be offended by it. It's just a (to me) natural reaction to ignorance and injustice.

 

Now I'm sure you know that a lot of s***ty things happen to women as well as to men. The fact is that there are some people out there who are lacking in humanity. Do those people give a damn when they stuff they pull is used to form insulting generalisations about their entire gender? Highly unlikely that they do. In fact they probably think it's funny.

 

The most likely scenario is that the group who will be most hurt and offended by the sort of generalisations you make is comprised by the very people who you claim shouldn't feel offended. People who try pretty hard to live their lives ethically - and don't appreciate the group they belong to (whether through gender, race or religion) being constantly under attack purely because of the actions of a few.

 

You've suggested in the past that your girlfriend isn't a great fan of women. It therefore stands to reason that she will actively enjoy hearing you diss women in general. What does that say? To me, it says she's had bad experiences involving other women....and that may well stem from bad judgement on her part when it came to making friends or picking the right work environment for her.

 

People get stuck if they fail to take personal responsibility for their experiences with other people and the feelings those experiences have left them with - or the way in which they have coloured (and perhaps warped) their outlook. That failure is signified by a person saying "Most men/women/blacks/whites/Christians/Muslims are crap, and I know this from personal experience..." instead of the more honest and mature "I've made mistakes about people in the past. Rather than continually blaming other people for the way I feel inside, I need to focus on exercising better judgement when it comes to relationships so that I minimise the chances of having further damaging ones."

 

You should also bear in mind, Woggle, that relationships based on mutual dislike of something (eg women) are often quite intense...but can lack the substance and positive edge of relationships that are based on shared passions and interests.

[Woggle]

Woggle - I'm not black, but if I hear people making insulting or degrading generalisations about people who are then I get pissed off. I'm not French - but I get fed up with hearing my fellow countrymen slag off the French (and equally fed up hearing the French slagging us off in return!). I don't have to feel that a generalisation applies to me in order to be offended by it. It's just a (to me) natural reaction to ignorance and injustice.

 

Now I'm sure you know that a lot of s***ty things happen to women as well as to men. The fact is that there are some people out there who are lacking in humanity. Do those people give a damn when they stuff they pull is used to form insulting generalisations about their entire gender? Highly unlikely that they do. In fact they probably think it's funny.

 

The most likely scenario is that the group who will be most hurt and offended by the sort of generalisations you make is comprised by the very people who you claim shouldn't feel offended. People who try pretty hard to live their lives ethically - and don't appreciate the group they belong to (whether through gender, race or religion) being constantly under attack purely because of the actions of a few.

 

You've suggested in the past that your girlfriend isn't a great fan of women. It therefore stands to reason that she will actively enjoy hearing you diss women in general. What does that say? To me, it says she's had bad experiences involving other women....and that may well stem from bad judgement on her part when it came to making friends or picking the right work environment for her.

 

People get stuck if they fail to take personal responsibility for their experiences with other people and the feelings those experiences have left them with - or the way in which they have coloured (and perhaps warped) their outlook. That failure is signified by a person saying "Most men/women/blacks/whites/Christians/Muslims are crap, and I know this from personal experience..." instead of the more honest and mature "I've made mistakes about people in the past. Rather than continually blaming other people for the way I feel inside, I need to focus on exercising better judgement when it comes to relationships so that I minimise the chances of having further damaging ones."

 

You should also bear in mind, Woggle, that relationships based on mutual dislike of something (eg women) are often quite intense...but can lack the substance and positive edge of relationships that are based on shared passions and interests.

 

And you don't think men mind the constant male bashing in our society? Everyday I hear my female coworkers during their malebashing sessions but I tune it out. I don't even care anymore because they are all miserable. I honest to god do not hate women. Anybody that shows me decency and respect as a human being will get it in return no matter what gender they are. I have even helped women as well. I give what I get in return but quite honestly I have developed a mistrust towards women and I think it is somewhat well founded because honestly the mentality of many women just disgusts me. In no way am I accusing you of being this way but it does exist.

 

As for my girlfriend she doesn't hate women but she understands where I am coming from because she is ashamed of the behavior of many other women. Most of her friends are male. Our relationships is not based on hating women. In fact it rarely comes up. Our best moments are sharing stories of our travels and showing various things we have collected during thos travels to each other. We both have been a lot of places.

[loony]

lindya, that was an awesome post. Good to have someone so eloquent here to defend the truth.

[Woggle]

Why are women so threatened by me telling men to repsect themselves and grow a spine?

[loony]

I honest to god do not hate women. Anybody that shows me decency and respect as a human being will get it in return no matter what gender they are. I have even helped women as well.

Yeah, and I even have Jews among my friends...

 

As for my girlfriend she doesn't hate women but she understands where I am coming from because she is ashamed of the behavior of many other women. Most of her friends are male. Our relationships is not based on hating women. In fact it rarely comes up. Our best moments are sharing stories of our travels and showing various things we have collected during thos travels to each other. We both have been a lot of places.

I woman who has mostly male friends doesn't really have friends. They are just swarming around her, because she's a woman and probably attractive. If you can't relate to anybody of the same gender than I see it as a failing in your social interactions. Any woman can have male friends, most of the time it's enough to snip with the finger. Who are you going to delude with this claim?

[Woggle]

Yeah, and I even have Jews among my friends...

 

 

I woman who has mostly male friends doesn't really have friends. They are just swarming around her, because she's a woman and probably attractive. If you can't relate to anybody of the same gender than I see it as a failing in your social interactions. Any woman can have male friends, most of the time it's enough to snip with the finger. Who are you going to delude with this claim?

 

So men and women can't be friends? Maybe she has interests that are mostly in male dominated areas. The point is that she relates well to men and that is a good sign to me. She sees us as people and not the enemy.

[Outcast]

Why are women so threatened by me telling men to repsect themselves and grow a spine?

 

1. Nobody's threatened. The word is 'offended.'

2. That's not what you're telling men to do. You're telling them to distrust all women, expect only the worst of women, and act aggressively and unpleasantly. Which is not, for the umpteenth time, the same thing as 'growing a spine'. AND you preface your 'advice' with a long, bogus tale about how 'society has emasculated men' which is utter inanity.

 

So drop the disingenuousness. It's really annoying.

[lindya]

Why are women so threatened by me telling men to repsect themselves and grow a spine?

 

What you're saying is pretty much insulting to all rational, well-balanced men and women. If you walked up to most guys I know and told them that they needed to respect themselves and grow a spine, you'd get very short shrift from them. They already respect themselves, they already have plenty of spine...and they don't lessons from Woggle in how to be a man any more than I need lessons from Woggle in how to conduct a debate.

 

I have no idea who all these spineless men you talk of are, but I'm glad not to count them amongst my acquaintances. Now and again I've encountered men who seemed like the type you're talking about - but they generally hadn't had much in the way of dealings with women (female relatives they were close to, female friends etc) which may have explained some of the difficulties they had in conducting relationships with them. Encouraging such men to develop deeper resentment against the female of the species does them no favours. It might feel cosy and collusive...but when you encourage a male friend to blame women for all his ills, then you encourage him to continue, throughout his life, to deny all the personal issues and flaws that - left unaddressed - will prevent him from ever blossoming into real, fully fledged adult man.

[Woggle]

Again if my mentality is so bad for men how come it has done nothing but good in my own life?

[lindya]

Again if my mentality is so bad for men how come it has done nothing but good in my own life?

 

You're just a glutton for punishment, aren't you?!

 

Here...

 

Everyday I hear my female coworkers during their malebashing sessions but I tune it out.

 

Now, if you are surrounded by male-bashing women at work then you are entitled to address it in pretty clear and assertive terms. Indeed, I would say you have an obligation to. Why are you coming here and ranting at us when you should be addressing this behaviour with the very people who are guilty of it?

[loony]

Again if my mentality is so bad for men how come it has done nothing but good in my own life?

You can still somehow do well in certain areas of your life, like job or hobbies, but if you possess low emotional intelligence you won't do well in the social areas, like relationships or friendships. And who says your girlfriend is the best? It's only you and I wouldn't trust you to recognize a good woman even if she was standing in front of you. In fact, you have insulted and argued with some pretty nice ones here on LS, so whatever you say about your relationship I take with a grain of salt.

[Woggle]

You can still somehow do well in certain areas of your life, like job or hobbies, but if you possess low emotional intelligence you won't do well in the social areas, like relationships or friendships. And who says your girlfriend is the best? It's only you and I wouldn't trust you to recognize a good woman even if she was standing in front of you. In fact, you have insulted and argued with some pretty nice ones here on LS, so whatever you say about your relationship I take with a grain of salt.

 

She is the best for me. I get hot just looking at her so that is how much I am love with her. I also have plenty of close friends. I am a very happy person and I have not inulted anybody personally here.

[lindya]

She is the best for me. I get hot just looking at her so that is how much I am love with her. I also have plenty of close friends. I am a very happy person and I have not inulted anybody personally here.

 

Shall we agree to just let this one lie, Woggle? I can see it going on forever....

[Mz. Pixie]

Again if my mentality is so bad for men how come it has done nothing but good in my own life?

 

Well, you're young yet, Grasshopper and still have plenty of time left. I also wouldn't call one failed marriage and a bitter attitude towards women "nothing but good" in your life.

 

Is it me or is the Woggle's the expert and his girlfriend is the only wonderful woman in the world act getting kind of old??

 

Alpha, I can't say for sure whether or not we really have it better. Sometimes I long for the time myself when women didn't have to work and everything was so Mayberry but in reality, alot of women and children probably suffered. In a perfect world we would have had it that way, and men and women both would do what it took to take care of their families, stay married, stay drug and alcohol free etc but we don't live in a perfect world.

 

Nicholas, no education is not the only reason to get out of domestic violence and I don't believe I said that. It's just a fact that as women have entered the work force, and more of them have received quality educations that they have left husbands that they might have stayed with otherwise. True, some of them left and worked two or three jobs to make it in the past I'm sure but I would think it was a more rare instance than it is now.

[Outcast]

I get hot just looking at her so that is how much I am love with her

 

Um. That's called 'lust' which is quite different from 'love'. By this criterion, most men are 'in love' with half the female population.

[Nicholas]

Once again, becoming aggressive and bitter is not the opposite of being spineless.

 

In practice, it seems to be.

 

This is the trend I notice:

 

(1) Man completely lacks confidence, tries to take on too much in every relationship, views himself as really nice but is actually just obnoxious.

 

(2) Women is annoyed by obnoxiousness, so much so that it overshadows any genuine niceness.

 

(3) Woman leaves.

 

(4) Man gets really upset at womankind, because he thinks it's the niceness that upset the woman, when really it was the complete lack of self-respect.

 

(5) Man reads alphamale/Tom Lykas/Dave D'Angelo/Any other snake oil "how to get pussy" merchant, and resolves to start mistreating women.

 

(6) His self-confidence is boosted because of the money/time he forked over in "growing a backbone", women are attracted to that. Meanwhile, he's also treating them like ****, dashing his chances of attracting a mature woman.

 

Regardless, I can understand how Woggle would be upset with all of us telling him how much he doesn't really love his SO. That must be frustrating, though it was a flood gate that he opened himself. I like the idea of "letting it lie".

[Woggle]

Um. That's called 'lust' which is quite different from 'love'. By this criterion, most men are 'in love' with half the female population.

 

I am also atracted to her mind and everything about her. You don't know either one of us so don't be so quick to judge.

 

I didn't treat this woman like shyt. Actually she is the first woman that seems to genuinely appreciate my nice side.

[Woggle]

Well, you're young yet, Grasshopper and still have plenty of time left. I also wouldn't call one failed marriage and a bitter attitude towards women "nothing but good" in your life.

 

.

 

The good happened after the failed marriage.

[Outcast]

Actually she is the first woman that seems to genuinely appreciate my nice side.

 

Thank you. This goes to prove my contention that people must find partners who appreciate them for what they are. All the artifice, games, and pretence is nothing but foolishness. What you have to do when you find someone who doesn't appreciate you for who you are is move on. Not try to persuade them you're wonderful. Not think it was your 'niceness' that put them off. Simply move on and find the person who does appreciate you. The rest is pointless.