Eternal Security

[grace2005]

To the evangelical community out there. I'd like to get your thoughts on the doctrine of eternal security. That is the doctrine of once saved always saved. It means that the gift of eternal life once received is forever posessed and cannot be lost. Charles Stanley defines eternal security this way.

 

I do believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. I also believe Christ keeps those He has saved. Hence once saved always saved. Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith.

[Moose]

This is the way I look at it;

 

Once I put my faith in God, and asked Jesus into my heart.....I literally became a child of God.

 

There is one sure thing in my life. I have had 6 kids, all of them are mine, and forever will be. Nothing in this world, or anywhere else can change this.

 

The same senario applies here.....

[Admiral Thrawn]

The doctrine of Eternal security is a lie.

 

If you habitually choose to sin (Galatians 5-6), or if you decide that you are going to be a legalist and follow the law to be saved - you are out.

 

However, if you are struggling with a sin, or issue, and are taking it to the Lord in prayer to seek victory over it, then you are still in.

 

Chances are, if you choose to go into sin, or go back into 'works for salvation', that you did not have a strong conversion experience in the first place. Jesus made parables about the seed-sower, and depending on which type of ground the seeds fell, determined whether the 'seed' would stick, get caught up in brushes, or be a fruitful tree.

 

The real question, is how does the seed-sower parable relate to you?

 

Are you a fruitful tree, are you caught in the cares of the world, or did the word really come into your heart? In that sence, the doctrine of eternal security could make sence, because if the conversion experience was authentic - then it is going to stick.

[grace2005]

Eternal security is the very promise of the gospel itself. All who believe in Jesus have eternal life. It is a life that is truly eternal and the reason it is eternal is because the cause of death (sin) has been eradicated once & for all at the cross. Jesus' death on the cross took away the cause of death. He had to deal eternally with what caused death in order to give us a life that is eternal.

 

Had Jesus died only for some sins and not ALL sins then had He given us life we would have died again spiritually the next time we sinned. But there's no sin that can cause a born again believer to die spiritually again because all sins that could have caused that to happen were taken away at the cross.

[grace2005]

I just wanted to add that the cross is like the vaccine that takes away the cause of a disease. The human disease is spiritual death. The cross is the vaccine & the resurrected life of Christ Jesus is the cure for death. So salvation is life. We come to Jesus to get the cure for our condition of death & that cure is His resurrected life. We have the cure & the vaccine that will keep us from dying again.

 

Salvation is the great exchanged life.

[grace2005]

The doctrine of Eternal security is a lie.

 

If you habitually choose to sin (Galatians 5-6), or if you decide that you are going to be a legalist and follow the law to be saved - you are out.

 

However, if you are struggling with a sin, or issue, and are taking it to the Lord in prayer to seek victory over it, then you are still in.

 

Chances are, if you choose to go into sin, or go back into 'works for salvation', that you did not have a strong conversion experience in the first place. Jesus made parables about the seed-sower, and depending on which type of ground the seeds fell, determined whether the 'seed' would stick, get caught up in brushes, or be a fruitful tree.

 

The real question, is how does the seed-sower parable relate to you?

 

Are you a fruitful tree, are you caught in the cares of the world, or did the word really

come into your heart? In that sence, the doctrine of eternal security could make sence, because if the conversion experience was authentic - then it is going to stick.

 

 

I do believe it is possible for a saved person to fall into sin & get trapped in habitual sin. I don't believe a person who is truly saved will deny his sin or justify or promote or encourage or defend sin. A saved person may go ahead and continue in that sin but he will always be in agreement with God that what he's doing is wrong. But walking in the Spirit is a moment by moment decision even though our salvation is a once & for all deal.

 

As an example I believe a saved person could have sex before marriage (fornication) but I don't believe a saved person will deny that what he's doing is sin. The Holy Spirit lives in him and the bible calls him the spirit of truth. The spirit of truth says fornication is sin. The holy spirit ministers to our human spirit if he lives in us. They are connected. There's no way to continue in sin without internal conflict between the spirit & the flesh.

 

As born again believers we may never live up to truth but we won't deny the truth. So if a person claims to be born again but he's justifying his sin then he better take a look if he really was saved in the first place.

[Nicholas]

I've met a lot of horrible people who believe that they are saved by virtue of their professed belief in Christ.

 

If all the people who think they are gauranteed a spot in heaven actually are, I suddenly feel a lot better about the uncertain destination of my own soul. The last thing I'd want to do is spend eternity with them.

 

I like Jon Stewart's take on it:

 

Faith with works : Good

Faith without works : Dead

Works without Faith : Still pretty Good

 

The afterlife is not a part of my faith experience. I often feel like heaven is a kids thing. But, if there is an afterlife, I feel like people will go who deserve to go, regardless of their belief in Jesus.

 

I know there's that whole 'with me or against me' quote, but I think you can be a Christian without professing a membership in a Christian church, and I am certain you can be very unchristian while being the President of Christ's fan club.

[Admiral Thrawn]

I do believe it is possible for a saved person to fall into sin & get trapped in habitual sin. I don't believe a person who is truly saved will deny his sin or justify or promote or encourage or defend sin. A saved person may go ahead and continue in that sin but he will always be in agreement with God that what he's doing is wrong. But walking in the Spirit is a moment by moment decision even though our salvation is a once & for all deal.

 

That is right. Of course, the saved person will be truely unhappy with this sin, and wish to break out of it, and is at least prayerfully availing himself to do so. However, in accordance with Galatians 5, is an example of a list of types of sin, that if practised, will result in eternal damnation regardless of profession. Sin, is in itself a lie, when it is practised once, it is usually the beginning of a destructive habit. Sure, the premised lie is - only just once, but the end result is bondage. Having a 'pet sin' will result in damnation.

 

However, if you are confessing your sins, want to forsake them, and are trusting God to overcome them, then you are really 'struggling with sin', which wont effect standing of salvation, because God will help people overcome sin.

 

As an example I believe a saved person could have sex before marriage (fornication) but I don't believe a saved person will deny that what he's doing is sin. The Holy Spirit lives in him and the bible calls him the spirit of truth. The spirit of truth says fornication is sin. The holy spirit ministers to our human spirit if he lives in us. They are connected. There's no way to continue in sin without internal conflict between the spirit & the flesh.

 

As with any sin, proper confession and reprentance is still requisite.

The Bible does not teach sinless perfection, but that sins could be purged and the sinning Christian can be forgiven and cleansed, unless it is a Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

[Nicholas]

The funniest thing about all this discussion is that nobody knows.

 

You may be certain, but you can't possibly know. It's not faith if you know. No one knows. It's all guesswork, but because it's religious, we convince ourselves that we know.

 

But we don't know. We just (try to) make the best of the knowledge we have.

[quankanne]

That is the doctrine of once saved always saved. It means that the gift of eternal life once received is forever posessed and cannot be lost. Charles Stanley defines eternal security this way. I do believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

 

theoretically, yes, this equation makes sense. The reality of it, however, is that every waking, breathing moment we are alive we make the decision to accept or reject Christ. My husband telling me he was confirmed in the Episcopalian church, and therefore "saved" has me questioning his theory of salvation when he doesn't follow Christ otherwise. Does he profess by mouth alone, or with his heart too? Only God knows, so I just do my best to open his mind by catechizing him, by sharing my thoughts with him about having to walk the walk of Christ to fully live out our salvation.

 

I asked one of the priests about this theory of "once saved, always saved," and he pretty much described it as a three-part process: you accept Christ as your savior by that initial profession of belief (past), yet you continually profess your salvation by living as Christ tells us to live and through the Eucharist (present); you hope to be saved in that you strive to keep centered in God (future). Pretty much, as spiritually creatures, we are a work in progress. In fully claiming our salvation, we've got to say yes to Christ every day if we want to fully live that salvation experience.

 

methinks that by parroting a salvation prayer without understanding that the relationship with Christ is a two-way street or telling people "all you've got to do is say you believe and you're covered" is like putting a bandaid on a serious gut wound. Only serious, committed care and aid will keep the patient from dying.

[Admiral Thrawn]

That is the doctrine of once saved always saved. It means that the gift of eternal life once received is forever posessed and cannot be lost. Charles Stanley defines eternal security this way. I do believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

 

theoretically, yes, this equation makes sense. The reality of it, however, is that every waking, breathing moment we are alive we make the decision to accept or reject Christ.

 

Even when you are deciding what clothes to put on, or what food to eat for breakfast, brushing your teeth? You said 'every waking, breathing moment'. That does not sound tenable.

 

My husband telling me he was confirmed in the Episcopalian church, and therefore "saved" has me questioning his theory of salvation when he doesn't follow Christ otherwise.

 

Except a man be born-again he will not enter into the Kingdom of God.

You actually have to be re-born spiritually, not some mental assent or verbal profession. If there is no genuine spiritual rebirth to start with, there was never any salvation. People may be 'lost' in that type of church since it does not teach the true fundamental doctrines - that salvation is objectivelly based on the Finished Work of Jesus Christ on Calvary, and NOTHING added to that - no Eucharist, no 'good-work brownie points, etc...'.

 

I asked one of the priests about this theory of "once saved, always saved," and he pretty much described it as a three-part process: you accept Christ as your savior by that initial profession of belief (past), yet you continually profess your salvation by living as Christ tells us to live and through the Eucharist (present); you hope to be saved in that you strive to keep centered in God (future). Pretty much, as spiritually creatures, we are a work in progress. In fully claiming our salvation, we've got to say yes to Christ every day if we want to fully live that salvation experience.

 

That is not what the Bible says. You need to go to a church that does not make up false rules or doctrines, and that believes in the true word of God.

That's the problem.

 

methinks that by parroting a salvation prayer without understanding that the relationship with Christ is a two-way street or telling people "all you've got to do is say you believe and you're covered" is like putting a bandaid on a serious gut wound. Only serious, committed care and aid will keep the patient from dying.

 

Right, sometimes you dont have to say a salvation prayer to be saved. It is more like you are establishing a 'connection' with God, and are beginning to understand what the Bible is talking about and how it relates to Jesus Christ.

Sometimes, it is very gradual, you grow into it, rather than some instant magical experience.

[bluetuesday]

once saved, always saved? no, i don't believe so. if you're a biblical literalist the evidence is contradictory. but surely the metaphor about adam and eve tells us it's perfectly possible to fall out of god's favour.

 

now if grace is a free gift, it's a free gift. its very definition means you can't earn it. and presumably one of the ways in which you can't earn it is by believing in god.

 

so grace though belief in christ is a bit of a dud present. it's the religious equivalent of your boyfriend giving you £80 for christmas to pay for the skirt you already bought yourself.

 

i think god, if he exists, would be way cooler than this.

[Outcast]

"Free gift" is redundant.

[Nicholas]

if you're a biblical literalist the evidence is contradictory. but surely the metaphor about adam and eve tells us it's perfectly possible to fall out of god's favour.

What metaphor????

 

You need to go to a church that does not make up false rules or doctrines, and that believes in the true word of God. That's the problem.

 

Couldn't agree more.

[quankanne]

Right, sometimes you dont have to say a salvation prayer to be saved. It is more like you are establishing a 'connection' with God, and are beginning to understand what the Bible is talking about and how it relates to Jesus Christ. Sometimes, it is very gradual, you grow into it, rather than some instant magical experience.

 

exactly precisely! I get the impression that people often think by saying the magic words, they're covered. There is no epiphany, no conversion of heart involved OR needed. My BiL, bless his heart, was saved in the parking lot of the Dairy Queen he owns. The preacher from the family church had been getting on to him about the need to profess salvation, that it was imperative, so he did. With the collary that he wasn't going to change his lifestyle; he wasn't giving up his ways just because he proclaimed salvation. What worries me is that the pastor (and oftentimes a lot of these Bible Belt door bangers) did not follow through on the explanation that conversion must be whole, so people think they're covered by reciting that salvation prayer. Just like any other interpersonal relationship, the one with Jesus/God must be maintained in order for it to live. As you point out, sometimes it takes time!

 

Even when you are deciding what clothes to put on, or what food to eat for breakfast, brushing your teeth? You said 'every waking, breathing moment'. That does not sound tenable.

 

it does if you're looking at it from a contemplative viewpoint. That you give yourself up to God every moment of every day, from what you say to how you respond to others to how you carry yourself. Even as you do those mundane things, there is a sense of awareness of Him … otherwise, it's like putting God away safely on a shelf, only to be looked at or taken down when you think about it from time to time.

 

that salvation is objectivelly based on the Finished Work of Jesus Christ on Calvary, and NOTHING added to that - no Eucharist

 

:eek:

 

I'm waiting for a thunderbolt to strike where you sit. I fully believe that Christ is present in the Eucharist, and that partaking in the Eucharist is to be in full communion with him. That every time you receive the Body and Blood of Christ, you're saying yes to him and to the salvation he offers.

 

You need to go to a church that does not make up false rules or doctrines, and that believes in the true word of God. That's the problem.

 

I follow a belief system that preaches the truth of Christ in all its fullness, not just the pick and choose variety that Protestant churches offer.

[grace2005]

Nobody said that a person is saved by reciting a prayer. I agree that saying a prayer won't save. I believe we are saved by faith & faith alone in Christ & His death, burial, & resurrection alone. Faith acknowledges the need for a Savior and that I cannot save myself by anything I do.

[bluetuesday]

"Free gift" is redundant.

 

my goodness. blatant tautology, and me a wordsmith. i'll be flogging myself later if it's any consolation.

 

i know a joke about that, which is deliciously funny if you're either english or clever.

 

Q. who was the leader of the pedants' revolt?

 

A. which tyler.

[loony]

i know a joke about that, which is deliciously funny if you're either english or clever.

 

Q. who was the leader of the pedant's revolt?

 

A. which tyler.

I will excuse myself now with the fact that I am not English. Hope the rest has a good excuse as well.

[grace2005]

Works without faith will not save. All our works & righteousness is filthy rags according to Isaiah 64:6

 

Romans 4:5 "to him who does NOT work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"

 

Romans 11:29 for the gifts and callings of God are without repentance.

 

The only righteousness that anyone will stand in before a holy God is imputed righteousness of His Son. Imputed means it's accredited to the sinner. Any other kind of righteousness is filthy rags and will not pass the test.

 

Attempting to work for salvation is like trying to clean a car off with a greasy rag. Even praying a prayer is a work which cannot save anybody. We must be born again (john 3:3). Jesus completed the work & fulfilled the requirements of the law.

 

Being born again involves not a change in behavior but a change in identity and circumsized heart. Although a change in behavior may be the result of it. Man's spiritual condition is not just how bad he's behaving but how dead & deceitfully wicked his heart is. The heart must be changed first.

[Yamaha]

I don't believe in one saved always saved. If God gives us free will and at some point I change my mind and do not want to accept salvation then I have that right to do so. By saying "one saved always saved " you are saying that God will not let me go even if I decide I don't want him. I think God lets us make our choices and that statement is not a choice.

[Admiral Thrawn]

now if grace is a free gift, it's a free gift. its very definition means you can't earn it. and presumably one of the ways in which you can't earn it is by believing in god.

 

so grace though belief in christ is a bit of a dud present. it's the religious equivalent of your boyfriend giving you £80 for christmas to pay for the skirt you already bought yourself.

 

i think god, if he exists, would be way cooler than this.

 

It's something that is not earned, but it still has to be accepted. You can not accept something you know nothing about.

 

Grace is anologous to the following: If I'm convicted of a crime, and the judge were to give me an absolute pardon, and I feel that I earned it and presumptiously tell the judge that I do not deserve to have been convicted in the first place, and challenge him to lay the law down on me and he lays it down and I get the worst possible sentence -- then you can start seeing a contrast of concept.

 

It is even more than that. Once Christ is accepted, something has to change inside, you are actually justified, you are not the same person. Something supernatural has to happen - this is not just something in the head or an emotional experience. There is a new Spirit living inside - the Holy Spirit, its witness of being inside of you is evidence you are saved.

 

So, it's not an abstract conceptual grace like you are making it up to be.

It just means salvation is accessible by faith, and that it is impossible to earn.

[Nicholas]

You can not accept something you know nothing about.

 

So those who don't know Jesus are damned to hellfire then? Way to get the message.

 

What about Ghandi? He tried to be a Christian, but the Christians wouldn't let him. He went on to be one of the greatest Christians ever, without ever submitting to Christianity. If you get to go to heaven, but Ghandi doesn't, then that speaks a lot about the nature of your God.

 

I have a hard time believing God created us to test whether or not we'll submit to one of his religions, hoping desperately (with our mortal soul on the line) that we chose the correct one.

 

Works without faith will not save.

 

Good Works, with or without the decoration of faith, save people here on Earth. They help bring about the Kingdom of God without waiting until we die.

 

This has infinite utility compared with the abstract salvation that fundamentalists guarantee themselves.

 

So "circumsize your heart," all you'd like, but I tend to focus on the value of works, because it actually exists and does good here on Earth now, whereas the doctrine of an afterlife is at best wishful thinking.

 

I tend to think there's more heart in that than in modern fundamentalism.

[grace2005]

Your eternal destiny is determined by your answer to these questions: "what do you think about Jesus?" What do you think about Jesus & His sacrifical death, burial & resurrection? What are you trusting in for your salvation? your works? or Jesus' completed work at the cross & resurrection??

[Nicholas]

Your eternal destiny is determined by your answer to these questions: "what do you think about Jesus?" What do you think about Jesus & His sacrifical death, burial & resurrection? What are you trusting in for your salvation? your works? or Jesus' completed work at the cross & resurrection??

You forgot to mention that your answers to these questions cannot exceed five hundred (500) words, and that you must use a number-two pencil.

[Admiral Thrawn]

You can not accept something you know nothing about.

 

So those who don't know Jesus are damned to hellfire then? Way to get the message.

 

And because of gravity we all have to stay down. The only way to defeat gravity in physics, is to follow laws of flight, if you do it any other way, you'll come back down. Yet, do we hear physics protesting or rolling their eyes that this is the way reality is?

 

What about Ghandi? He tried to be a Christian, but the Christians wouldn't let him. He went on to be one of the greatest Christians ever, without ever submitting to Christianity. If you get to go to heaven, but Ghandi doesn't, then that speaks a lot about the nature of your God.

 

Ghandi is not perfect enough to meet God's standard, only Jesus was that perfect. The Bible teaches that no person living from Adam to now, except Jesus, was ever perfect enough to make it. It is not about 'trying' to be a Christian, because if you are 'trying' then you are probably not saved and relying on works.

 

I have a hard time believing God created us to test whether or not we'll submit to one of his religions, hoping desperately (with our mortal soul on the line) that we chose the correct one.

 

Religions depend on works to try and be good enough to merit something.

You are not just choosing another merit based work system - the point of the Gospel is Good-News, or liberation. You can come as you are, and be justified. We are talking about a personal relationship with God, not a religion, in the formal sence of the word.

 

 

Works without faith will not save.

 

Good Works, with or without the decoration of faith, save people here on Earth. They help bring about the Kingdom of God without waiting until we die.

 

This has infinite utility compared with the abstract salvation that fundamentalists guarantee themselves.

 

So "circumsize your heart," all you'd like, but I tend to focus on the value of works, because it actually exists and does good here on Earth now, whereas the doctrine of an afterlife is at best wishful thinking.

 

I tend to think there's more heart in that than in modern fundamentalism.

 

Good works are cool and encouraged in the Bible. However, nobody is good enough to meet God's standard. Good works in the context of obedience to God is proper. Good works, with disobedience, well, is improper. As long as you dont have a false sence of hope or security of salvation, good-works should and always be done. What goes around comes around. To be happy, you have to make other people happy, and we will have a happier world.

 

Saul, a former King of Israel is a classic example of works gone awry. He failed to obey God, and did things that he thought was good and right. But he lost his king status for failing to obey God's commands completely, and choosing what he wanted to obey, or what he thought was good.

 

Everybody, even if they have done all the good things in the world like Ghandi, probably has a secret vice or some type of sin. You wouldn't know i history if he molested an 8 year old girl, or whatever...but it is possible. Would all the good that he has done, perhaps justify a potential hidden sin like that, or perhaps another sin? There is nobody that is perfect. Our sinful natures will not allow perfection.