How to handle marriage delay?

[basil67]

9 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

Well, she just told me today again that she does. I see no reason not to trust her. She says she wants to get married and have children in the future, but not just now. There is no reason to suspect her of lying.. 

How did this resurface for another discussion?  Please tell me that you weren't the one who started it

[Gebidozo]

7 hours ago, Gaeta said:

No one tells you to let go of the relationship. We're telling you if you want marriage & kids you will be disappointed.

I can’t say that I want marriage and kids. I just think it would be a good thing. What if 15 years pass and she suddenly realizes she wants kids very much? It would be biologically too late for her. She might end up regretting her hesitations and inability to overcome her fears.

 

7 hours ago, Gaeta said:

About her words, you are focusing on certain words and not on certain other words & actions like cancelling, delaying, shoveling forward the timeline in terms of years. 

 

Well, concerning kids I was the one who shoveled the timeline forward. At first I thought it would be good to have kids by now (i.e. after having been together for 2 years). But now that this time has actually come, I realize I’m not ready. I’m learning a lot of stuff about love and relationships and commitments and my views about those are being challenged and change, sometimes quite radically. I want to make absolutely sure our relationship is working really well before deciding to have kids.

[basil67]

11 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

I can’t say that I want marriage and kids. I just think it would be a good thing. What if 15 years pass and she suddenly realizes she wants kids very much? It would be biologically too late for her. She might end up regretting her hesitations and inability to overcome her fears.

Kindly, you've been coming across as very pushy throughout this, and now it appears that you're making the decision about children based on what you think is best for her.  It's not OK to encourage someone to have children because you worry they they may regret it.   Her decisions (and the resulting outcomes) are on her to figure out.   Stop infantalising her!

 If you don't particularly want kids and she doesn't particularly want them either, just accept it.    

Edited September 25 by basil67

[Gebidozo]

9 minutes ago, basil67 said:

How did this resurface for another discussion?  Please tell me that you weren't the one who started it

There was no discussion. It went like this:

Me: Look, about me getting upset over the delay, it’s not the delay I’m upset about, it’s that you agreed to that date while actually not being ready. So please, from now on, if we ever discuss it, tell me honestly how you feel about it, even if you never want to get married.

She: That cannot be. I do want to marry you. And I’m sorry, I thought I’d be ready by that date. I knew you wanted it to be this soon, and I wanted to make you happy. But I’m not ready yet. Everything went too fast. Actually, our engagement happened too fast, too.

Me: I’m sorry I pressured you with the engagement. Do you want to… disengage?

She: No. A year has passed and now I’m feeling really good with the engagement.

Me: You mean if it were up to you, we’d only get engaged now, not a year ago?

She: Exactly.

Me: I’m so sorry. It was selfish and insensitive of me to push you like that.

She: That’s okay. You’re too fast, I’m too slow. We can try and meet in the middle.

 

 

[Gebidozo]

2 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Kindly, you've been coming across as very pushy throughout this, and now it appears that you're making the decision about children based on what you think is best for her.  It's not OK to encourage someone to have children because you worry they they may regret it.   Her decisions (and the resulting outcomes) are on her to figure out.   Stop infantalising her!

I knew you would say that… Of course you’re right. I saw it the moment I re-read what I wrote😳

 

 

[basil67]

44 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

She: That’s okay. You’re too fast, I’m too slow. We can try and meet in the middle.

Marriage should be when you're both properly ready for it.  Her trying to compromise her timing isn't really a good thing.  

 

[Gebidozo]

9 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Marriage should be when you're both properly ready for it.  Her trying to compromise her timing isn't really a good thing.  

 

Yes. I won’t be trying to suggest dates anymore, will just ask her in about a year where she stands, and make sure she is really ready and not just trying to do it to please me.

[basil67]

53 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

Yes. I won’t be trying to suggest dates anymore, will just ask her in about a year where she stands, and make sure she is really ready and not just trying to do it to please me.

How about you wait for her to initiate telling you that she’s ready?  Then you’ll know for sure that she’s doing it because it’s what she wants

[Gebidozo]

25 minutes ago, basil67 said:

How about you wait for her to initiate telling you that she’s ready?  Then you’ll know for sure that she’s doing it because it’s what she wants

Yes, I probably should do that. It’s going to be hard.  It’s just something so atypical of me. I’m so used to initiating and controlling everything. 

This thread caused me to have some unpleasant revelations about myself.

I know I used to be like this evil dictator, crushing everything in his path to get what he wants. And then, of course, even when I got what I wanted, I lost it eventually. Just as a dictator cannot force people to love him, he can only force them to pretend.

I thought I’ve left this tyrannical mindset in the past. But in reality, I just became a benevolent dictator. I don’t behead people anymore, but I still tell them what to think.

Old habits die hard… I really need to get this poison out of my system.

 

[SurfCity]

6 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

She never wanted kids before. This is the first time that the has begun to think about having kids.

It feels like you're pressuring her into having kids and I don't understand why because IIRC you already have kids. If she's never wanted kids and is only considering it because you want them, you shouldn't push her to have kids with you because she might hate motherhood and resent you for pushing her into it. That could cause the relationship to fail. 

[Gebidozo]

26 minutes ago, SurfCity said:

It feels like you're pressuring her into having kids and I don't understand why because IIRC you already have kids. If she's never wanted kids and is only considering it because you want them, you shouldn't push her to have kids with you because she might hate motherhood and resent you for pushing her into it. That could cause the relationship to fail. 

Yes, I have a son, but his mother and I divorced shortly after he was born, and they went to another country. I see him very rarely.

I understand now that a I’ve made a mistake trying to decide what I thought was best for my fiancée.

She needs to decide herself whether she wants kids or not, without me pressuring her.

[ExpatInItaly]

6 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

What if 15 years pass and she suddenly realizes she wants kids very much? It would be biologically too late for her. She might end up regretting her hesitations and inability to overcome her fears.

Not your problem, quite simply. Other people's choices are their beds to lie in, not yours to try to coerce and control. 

Stop all talk of marriage and kids. She has now been clear she is not ready. If she someday changes her mind, she will let you know.

[Els]

On 9/25/2024 at 3:30 AM, Gebidozo said:

How should I behave to make sure that if she marries me she does it because she truly wants it, and not because she wants to please me?

By genuinely accepting that you cannot control this.

With all due respect, you are still trying to control this process even though you say you aren't. For instance, you are asking "how you can behave to accelerate this". IMO that's not the right question to ask - there's no point in accelerating something that the other person doesn't necessarily want.

I think the main question you should be asking right now is whether the two of you are compatible or not, both in terms of your life goals as well as your relationship dynamic. The dynamic between a pushy person with controlling tendencies and a people-pleaser can fall into dangerous territory very quickly, even if you both are doing your best to change. It's not impossible to avoid that territory, but it takes continuous concerted effort and even then it might not work. IMO you would have a healthier relationship with a person who is assertive about their boundaries, because they can push back when you go out of line, rather than enabling your behaviour.

As for her answer re: kids, that's as lukewarm a perspective as I've ever heard, lol. Especially considering that the only time you had kids, you up and left half a year after their birth, have you ever considered that maybe you (and her) just aren't meant to be parents? If she's lukewarm about it you might end up shouldering the bulk of the parenting, and history hasn't shown that you would be able to handle that. In this case, it sounds selfish to bring a child into such a situation even if she technically agrees to it.

 

[basil67]

20 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

But in reality, I just became a benevolent dictator.

"Benevolent dictator" is a contradiction in terms.   If you were truly benevolent, you wouldn't be here asking how to behave in a manner which will persuade her to marry you sooner.   I would say that your approach is slyly manipulative rather than benevolent.  

Also, given your past of multiple quick marriages and then leaving just as quick, I'm not convinced that you know the difference between long term love and infatuation. 

 

 

[Gebidozo]

25 minutes ago, Els said:

With all due respect, you are still trying to control this process even though you say you aren't. For instance, you are asking "how you can behave to accelerate this". IMO that's not the right question to ask - there's no point in accelerating something that the other person doesn't necessarily want.

I realize that now, but it’s hard for me to adjust to this new way of thinking. When I was younger, I was just getting or trying to get what I wanted. And the funny thing is, in many cases it turned out to be something I didn’t even truly want, but just something I felt I needed at the time to make me feel better. So I forced stuff to happen that I thought was good but actually ruined things. I’d never listen to people who told me to slow down, think, etc.

I definitely don’t want to be that person anymore. I’ve made progress in recent years, but apparently I’m not there yet.

 

31 minutes ago, Els said:

As for her answer re: kids, that's as lukewarm a perspective as I've ever heard, lol. Especially considering that the only time you had kids, you up and left half a year after their birth, have you ever considered that maybe you (and her) just aren't meant to be parents? If she's lukewarm about it you might end up shouldering the bulk of the parenting, and history hasn't shown that you would be able to handle that. In this case, it sounds selfish to bring a child into such a situation even if she technically agrees to it.

Well, that was 16 years ago so I’d like to think that I’ve changed now. At any rate, there is no way I’d leave, the circumstances are totally different.

[Els]

It's good that you're doing all that introspection. I just want to reiterate that pushing a lukewarm person into having kids is bad for the kids, in addition to being bad for your relationship. 

Have you considered enlisting a therapist to help with your journey of change? They could help point out controlling behavioural and mental patterns so that you are aware of them.

 

[Gebidozo]

34 minutes ago, Els said:

I think the main question you should be asking right now is whether the two of you are compatible or not, both in terms of your life goals as well as your relationship dynamic. The dynamic between a pushy person with controlling tendencies and a people-pleaser can fall into dangerous territory very quickly, even if you both are doing your best to change. It's not impossible to avoid that territory, but it takes continuous concerted effort and even then it might not work. IMO you would have a healthier relationship with a person who is assertive about their boundaries, because they can push back when you go out of line, rather than enabling your behaviour.

This is a question I was asking myself a year ago, and I came to the conclusion that I needed to reduce my level of pushiness and controlling tendencies first. I had serious anxiety issues and was basically a mess. I’m much better now, and I’m optimistic because some important things that seemed unsolvable back then have been actually solved now.

She is not a eager to please to the extent of doing something that she really doesn’t want. At worst, she would do things she does want earlier than she’d like to, but not things she wouldn’t do at all. In that respect, she can be very adamant and she has stood up to me very firmly on more than one occasion.

[Gebidozo]

20 minutes ago, basil67 said:

"Benevolent dictator" is a contradiction in terms.

Not really, it’s a historical term for absolute rulers who were nevertheless considered good. Ashoka, Marcus Aurelius, Louis the Pious, Atatürk, Lee Kwan Yew, that kind of thing.

But anyway, that was a bitter metaphor and obviously I don’t want to be any kind of a dictator and obviously you’re right that I’m still looking for some ways to push what I want in the dark recesses of my mind.

 

28 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Also, given your past of multiple quick marriages and then leaving just as quick, I'm not convinced that you know the difference between long term love and infatuation. 

Well, the last time I left was 15 years ago, afterwards I had two long-term relationships but it was the ladies who ended them. I was rather having the opposite problem, inability to end things when they were getting clearly insufferable.

That doesn’t mean that what you say about my infatuation tendencies is untrue. Unfortunately, it’s accurate in the sense that I tend to make very big decisions extremely quickly. 

 

[Gebidozo]

21 minutes ago, Els said:

Have you considered enlisting a therapist to help with your journey of change? They could help point out controlling behavioural and mental patterns so that you are aware of them.

I did that a year ago. It was much worse back then. He said I was on the right track now, but some things are just hard to get accustomed to. Like this thing with kids, the biggest revelation I got from this thread is that I’m not supposed to push her even gently, but wait till she is ready or accept that she never will be.