Husband with history of large debt wants to take a pay cut

[Worried32]

My husband and i have had issues with finances our whole relationship due to his debt and financial recklessness. I paud the deposit for our house, put money towards our wedding, paid for our honeymoon and now a new car on my own. We have had many conversations and he is aware he has a problem and is embarrased. We also now have a four month old daughter. I knew what he was like before we got married etc but since being married he has paid off all his debt and i convinced him to start a small savings account, however he could be saving much more now he has no debt. This year he got higher duties in his role at work meaning more money. He doesnt like this role as it isnt rewarding and wants to go back to his substantive role, which he also doesnt like, for less money and flexibility. Im perplexed as this is the first time in his adult life he has the chance to get himself and us ahead financially. He is also considering a career change altogether for even less money again but getting a second job so we can just make ends meet. Am i wrong for feeling like he is incredibly selfish? I get he needs to like his job but he is not bullied, stressed, overworked. It just isnt fulfilling to him. I said if ge wants to take paycuts ill support it but as long as he can save 20% of his income whatever his wage and make sacrifices elsewhere like spending money. Am i being reasonable? Im sick of my savings i work hard for on less money than him supporting us. 

Edited October 17 by Worried32
Typo

[Acacia98]

1 hour ago, Worried32 said:

We have had many conversations and he is aware he has a problem and is embarrased.

(...)Am i wrong for feeling like he isincredibly selfish? I get he needs to like his job but he is not bullied, stressed, overworked. It just isnt fulfilling to him. I said if ge wants to take paycuts ill support it but as long as he can save 20% of his income whatever his wage and make sacrifices elsewhere like spending money. Am i being reasonable? Im sick of my savings i work hard for on less money than him supporting us. 

Based on what you've written here, I think he does sound selfish.

And the fact that he feels embarrassed doesn't necessarily mean anything. The world is full of people who are embarrassed by their weaknesses and when it comes right down to it, will still give in to those weaknesses because they derive enjoyment from doing so.

[Gaeta]

He did what most financially reckless people wouldn't be able to do - paid off all of his debts and got into building savings. I think if you tight the rope around his neck a little tighter he might fall back in his old habits. It's like you don't appreciate what he's accomplished there you go pushing for more. You can't push him into a job he will hate to get ahead,  you don't get to decide for him what should and should not stress him. He will accumulate resentment and that will jeopardize your marriage. If he says his job stresses him then believe him. If putting aside 20% of his income means he will have no money left to step out of the house once in a while then no, it's not reasonable. 

You said you knew what he was like, you accepted to pay the whole wedding and honeymoon and car. It's too late to resent him now. You accept him as he is, with his strength and weaknesses. You will be the primary breadwinner, you knew that. When he finds a job he likes, who knows, he may make it a big success. 

[BaileyB]

I understand your concern, the most common reason why couples divorce is due to conflict over money. The financial stability of my family - including my own financial stability as I am responsible for his debts as his spouse - is important to me. 

I would want to understand his plan. If he takes another job, what will be the decrease in pay? How will this impact his ability to continue saving? Is there a pension at the new job? Is there a way that “you” as a family could cut spending? If he takes a second job to make up the difference, how is that going to affect his health and the time he has for his family? 

if he has a plan and it’s acceptable to me, I say follow your heart. Otherwise, there is more discussion to be had…

[Worried32]

1 hour ago, Gaeta said:

He did what most financially reckless people wouldn't be able to do - paid off all of his debts and got into building savings. I think if you tight the rope around his neck a little tighter he might fall back in his old habits. It's like you don't appreciate what he's accomplished there you go pushing for more. You can't push him into a job he will hate to get ahead,  you don't get to decide for him what should and should not stress him. He will accumulate resentment and that will jeopardize your marriage. If he says his job stresses him then believe him. If putting aside 20% of his income means he will have no money left to step out of the house once in a while then no, it's not reasonable. 

You said you knew what he was like, you accepted to pay the whole wedding and honeymoon and car. It's too late to resent him now. You accept him as he is, with his strength and weaknesses. You will be the primary breadwinner, you knew that. When he finds a job he likes, who knows, he may make it a big success. 

I understand your point over view. He only paid off the debt due to me encouraging him to pay it etc. if he is left to his own devices he is reckless and never would have paid it off. I recognise his achievement. I do wonder why he’d pass any opportunity for more money for something else he doesn’t like either. He isn’t stressed he doesn’t feel it’s rewarding. It has more flexible hours for him to be with his daughter. But he’s contemplating throwing that away to take a $1400 paycut a month where he’d have to work two jobs to make ends meet, lose time with his daughter, means I’d basically be parenting like a single mother as he’d never be home where he’d also have no spending money. I said I’ll support whatever he wants as long as he can save a bit more cash. He earns $6200 a month currently and saves $400. I don’t think I’m being unreasonable as my savings is completely depleted and he has $1000. I don’t believe he has the luxury of taking massive pay cuts for a job that is perfectly good just not rewarding when he now has a family to think of. I won’t be able to save like I used to as I’m on parental leave then hoping to work part time. His decision means we may not be able to afford for me to work part time and for our second child for me to not have much time off work. I straight out said as long as he can still save I’ll support it and that it has to be his decision and I’m not influencing him in any way or have any opinion as if the family doesn’t suffer then I don’t mind because I am not going to have him stay in the higher paying job for me. If he does it’s his decision but I’m always being realistic and telling him how much harder it will be for us. He has no concept of how expensive kids are when older and with two. 

Edited October 17 by Worried32

[Leihla_B]

Some ideas: Try coming up with a financial goal together, and negotiate giving him something he wants today in exchange for staying in his current job just long enough for you both reach that goal. Whatever he wants to do after that is something you can accept.

It also might help to find a good financial planner who can advise the two of you and help to make your savings and retirement plans work better to earn you more money. Husband might be more receptive to outside input rather than viewing you as his jailer?

Edited October 17 by Leihla_B

[Leihla_B]

Consider the 3 account method: His, Hers, and Ours. The Ours account is for all shared expenses, savings and investments. Each contributes to the Ours account according to a percentage based on earnings, so the higher earner pays more to the fund. Once that account is satisfied each month, each earner keeps the remainder of their earnings in their own account. This is money that can be spent or saved without permission from the other.

Read up on this, as most money experts advise this method to avoid fights over finances. Both partners negotiate the Ours account as both pay the bills together each month. You can build your shared savings goals into the Ours account, and you can roll those over into investments regularly. Consider using a financial planner.

[BaileyB]

^^^ This is the strategy that we use in our house. We have a budget and a plan for shared/household expenses. But we both have our own spending money as well. 

As you are expecting another child, you need to be working together to create a plan for your family - one that you can both feel good about. 

Edited October 17 by BaileyB

[Worried32]

29 minutes ago, Leihla_B said:

Consider the 3 account method: His, Hers, and Ours. The Ours account is for all shared expenses, savings and investments. Each contributes to the Ours account according to a percentage based on earnings, so the higher earner pays more to the fund. Once that account is satisfied each month, each earner keeps the remainder of their earnings in their own account. This is money that can be spent or saved without permission from the other.

Read up on this, as most money experts advise this method to avoid fights over finances. Both partners negotiate the Ours account as both pay the bills together each month. You can build your shared savings goals into the Ours account, and you can roll those over into investments regularly. Consider using a financial planner.

Thank you for the advice. I have done something similar and we have a joint account for bills, separate accounts for savings, and a percentage of our money to spend guilt free on what we want. It was a battle to get him to agree to this. I don’t mean to sound arrogant but it has been because of me trying to encourage him, teach him to manage his money that he is even debt free. All while me investing 100k into the relationship for a wedding, house, car etc where I saved si he could focus on his debt. Once he was debt free I encouraged him to save money and convinced him to save the bare minimum (it was a start). He resists saving and wants it more in the joint account for bills. I get that logic but the account has more than enough to cover bills, we also have a separate account for child related expenses which I mainly contribute to. I know what he is like and the more that is in the joint, the more he spends on unnecessary purchases. We really don’t go without and the belt could be tighten a bit. So I’m trying to suggest he saves a bit more as my savings cannot keep funding us. The problem is he loves having these new things like a car, wants a new house but how does he expect to get them if he wants a paycut and won’t budget more to savings. It’s almost like he’s relying on me to bail us out etc (I’m not even saying he consciously does it). I don’t exaggerate when I say he has absolutely no concept of money, saving etc. he is always happy to take out loans, pay them off slowly etc. I find it hard as I’m not a bad person. I just want financial security and to be able to give our children a good life. I don’t expect to be rich. I guess I figured just this once he could suck it up to help his family out. If he was under complete stress at work it’d be different. But the higher paying job actually allows him more flexibility with his hours and gets more time with his daughter than the lower paying one. I do recognise I can’t tell him what to do and his happiness is important however he can’t drag me into his financial problems when I’ve done nothing but the right thing. I really don’t know what to do 

Edited October 17 by Worried32

[Leihla_B]

3 minutes ago, Worried32 said:

I do recognise I can’t tell him what to do and his happiness is important however he can’t drag me into his financial problems when I’ve done nothing but the right thing. I really don’t know what to do 

Visit a financial planner with him. You can ask questions to the planner in front of him, and the advice can come from an external party. Then you're not the bad guy, and he has a better chance of learning the importance of the things that matter to you.

[Worried32]

43 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

^^^ This is the strategy that we use in our house. We have a budget and a plan for shared/household expenses. But we both have our own spending money as well. 

As you are expecting another child, you need to be working together to create a plan for your family - one that you can both feel good about. 

Thank you for the advice. I am trying to create a life together we both feel good about. All I’ve asked is if he can save a bit more. He currently earns $6200 a month and saves $400 a month. I can’t keep funding us as I’m going back to work part time after parental leave. I might even have to go back full time if he takes the large pay cut. His decisions to affect me. I’ve stood by him through it all and gently encouraged him to manage his money better. He contributed nothing to our wedding, I bough my own wedding ring, just bought a family car. He talks about wanting a bigger house yet wants to take a pay cut. I guess I feel can he not start helping me out a bit too?iM very aware I cannot hold the money I’ve spent against him as I have been willing to spend it. Now my savings is disappearing, I won’t save as much due to having a child, I’m just asking him to try save a bit more regardless of what job he chooses. I don’t think I’m being unreasonable but maybe I’m wrong. He completely shuts down when I try talk about money and will not have an open conversation so it’s very hard. I get knots in my stomach every time I want to discuss it. Then the rest of the day and the next day he is down and off because he feels bad. It’s quite stressful for me. But I do love him. I want to have these conversations and I’m willing to compromise etc. I’m not asking him to put half his pay in savings. 

Edited October 17 by Worried32

[basil67]

Kindly, you married a man who you know was financially reckless and lazy.  The fact that you got him out of this financial mess doesn't mean he's going to see the light and stop being financially reckless and lazy.  This is who he is, and his behaviour is not going to change.   Your very first post about him lying to you about spending the money on an engagement ring was a prediction of things to come.

I agree that you are, and always will be, the primary earner.  While it would be wonderful for you to work part time and spend more time with your child, it's too risky because he can't be trusted to earn what he needs to.

I really wish you'd walked away from him when you wrote about the engagement ring debacle.  It was undoubtedly a prediction of things to come.

[Worried32]

3 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Kindly, you married a man who you know was financially reckless and lazy.  The fact that you got him out of this financial mess doesn't mean he's going to see the light and stop being financially reckless and lazy.  This is who he is, and his behaviour is not going to change.   Your very first post about him lying to you about spending the money on an engagement ring was a prediction of things to come.

I agree that you are, and always will be, the primary earner.  While it would be wonderful for you to work part time and spend more time with your child, it's too risky because he can't be trusted to earn what he needs to.

I really wish you'd walked away from him when you wrote about the engagement ring debacle.  It was undoubtedly a prediction of things to come.

I do get that and I married him knowing what he was like. I guess I figured once he had paid his debt which he did things would be better. It’s so hard as he knows what he is like and suffers a lot of shame. I believe he has a genuine problem with money. If I ever did leave him over money he’d be devastated and kicking himself. Just not enough to change I guess 

[basil67]

47 minutes ago, Worried32 said:

I do get that and I married him knowing what he was like. I guess I figured once he had paid his debt which he did things would be better. It’s so hard as he knows what he is like and suffers a lot of shame. I believe he has a genuine problem with money. If I ever did leave him over money he’d be devastated and kicking himself. Just not enough to change I guess 

Indeed.  And it seems he's got the double whammy of bad financial management and poor work ethic.   Financial counselling could help his money management, but I'm not sure what can be done about his poor work ethic.   What's he like around the house?   Does he happily clean and cook?  Is he a capable father who can manage baths, nappies and washing?

Edited October 17 by basil67

[Gaeta]

3 hours ago, Worried32 said:

and for our second child

Are you pregnant of your 2nd child?

[MsJayne]

16 hours ago, Worried32 said:

I paud the deposit for our house, put money towards our wedding, paid for our honeymoon and now a new car on my own.

And now he's planning to downgrade his income and make your load even heavier. I'm guessing there's more going on with him than just immaturity and selfishness, sounds like he wasn't ready for commitment and family and secretly resents the responsibility. Feeling that you need to control his spending is a serious problem which will likely lead to divorce down the track, because controlling behaviour is relationship kryptonite. Maybe have a discussion with him about values and commitment to family as this might be the root cause, rather than the reckless spending. 

[BaileyB]

2 hours ago, Worried32 said:

I guess I figured once he had paid his debt which he did things would be better.

I don’t personally believe that people change their personality and their relationship with money all that much. Perhaps there are some who have a big scare (ie bankruptcy) and this changes their  relationship with money. And I’m sure that there are small changes - people may save more money as they get older, etc… But, I think spenders will always be spenders and savers will always be savers. I don’t know that a spender will ever truly become a saver at heart. 

I think you married him thinking that you could coach him to be better and he would want to improve because he has seen the light/the error of his ways. I don’t believe that has happened.

You’ve been a good partner - you’ve gone above and beyond your share of the expenses. I would encourage you to have better boundaries in the future - I wouldn’t be paying for things at the expense of my own savings and giving him a break because he manages his money poorly and he needs to pay down his debt. That’s all well and good, but if it becomes a long term pattern it becomes a problem…

Edited October 17 by BaileyB

[Worried32]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

Indeed.  And it seems he's got the double whammy of bad financial management and poor work ethic.   Financial counselling could help his money management, but I'm not sure what can be done about his poor work ethic.   What's he like around the house?   Does he happily clean and cook?  Is he a capable father who can manage baths, nappies and washing?

Yes he is a very good father and great around the house. He’s a fantastic person who has a problem with money. I wouldn’t say his work ethic is bad as such. He works hard at what he does. Just isn’t willing to see this higher paying job out until another opportunity arises. I used to work in emergency services that was extremely high pressure and I left due to its effect on my mental health. I went to work every day sick with nerves. I understand what it’s like to not enjoy your job and i think he is allowed to have his feelings. I guess I feel there’s a difference between not like your job because it’s not rewarding and because of stress. His job has a huge amount of positives and I wish he could stick with it until another opportunity did arise or until we saved some cash so he can take a paycut. 

[Worried32]

1 hour ago, Gaeta said:

Are you pregnant of your 2nd child?

No I worded that poorly. We would like one in the future. If we can afford it…..

[Worried32]

35 minutes ago, MsJayne said:

And now he's planning to downgrade his income and make your load even heavier. I'm guessing there's more going on with him than just immaturity and selfishness, sounds like he wasn't ready for commitment and family and secretly resents the responsibility. Feeling that you need to control his spending is a serious problem which will likely lead to divorce down the track, because controlling behaviour is relationship kryptonite. Maybe have a discussion with him about values and commitment to family as this might be the root cause, rather than the reckless spending. 

I genuinely don’t believe he wasn’t ready for commitment. Part of me feels sad for him because he is a great person who loves me dearly but unfortunately has a serious problem with money. I loved him enough to support him through that. I don’t try control his money I am aware of the consequences of that. I always gently speak to him about it and put ideas to him and ask him to just try something and if it doesn’t work we can re evaluate. He actually said himself once that it’s good how I set up joint accounts as it stops him spending and that I’m not controlling that it just makes him accountable 

[Worried32]

45 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I don’t personally believe that people change their personality and their relationship with money all that much. Perhaps there are some who have a big scare (ie bankruptcy) and this changes their  relationship with money. And I’m sure that there are small changes - people may save more money as they get older, etc… But, I think spenders will always be spenders and savers will always be savers. I don’t know that a spender will ever truly become a saver at heart. 

I think you married him thinking that you could coach him to be better and he would want to improve because he has seen the light/the error of his ways. I don’t believe that has happened.

You’ve been a good partner - you’ve gone above and beyond your share of the expenses. I would encourage you to have better boundaries in the future - I wouldn’t be paying for things at the expense of my own savings and giving him a break because he manages his money poorly and he needs to pay down his debt. That’s all well and good, but if it becomes a long term pattern it becomes a problem…

You have some good points and I do agree. I was naive thinking he would change. I think he is the type of person who needed to be with someone who can mange money or he would have nothing. I didn’t want to by the car right now I wanted to wait until he could contribute some savings but one of our cars needed costly repairs that wasn’t worth fixing. I do realise I need to stop funding everything. I have said to him that if it’s ok with him I’m going to just focus on building them back up now if he would mind trying to save a bit more which he agreed. It’s just always me who has to ask and it makes me feel like the bad guy or controlling.  I refuse to make anymore big purchases. I’ve told him I’m not committing to a bigger house that we’d like if he takes a paycut and doesn’t save. I’m not trying to make him feel guilty but just stating a fact. If he wants these things he has to work for it. 

Edited October 17 by Worried32

[basil67]

36 minutes ago, Worried32 said:

Yes he is a very good father and great around the house. He’s a fantastic person who has a problem with money. I wouldn’t say his work ethic is bad as such. He works hard at what he does. Just isn’t willing to see this higher paying job out until another opportunity arises. I used to work in emergency services that was extremely high pressure and I left due to its effect on my mental health. I went to work every day sick with nerves. I understand what it’s like to not enjoy your job and i think he is allowed to have his feelings. I guess I feel there’s a difference between not like your job because it’s not rewarding and because of stress. His job has a huge amount of positives and I wish he could stick with it until another opportunity did arise or until we saved some cash so he can take a paycut. 

OK 'poor work ethic' was a bad choice of words.  I too know what it's like to have a stressful job which is taking a toll.  But any person with responsibilities knows that you need to get a new job with similar pay before you leave the old job.   Instead of 'wishing' he could stick with it, I'd be much more firm and tell him that the two of you simply cannot afford for him to do this.  If need be, remind him how all your finances were used up getting him out of debt.  Yes, it may bring shame, but it's also reality.

I'm glad to hear that he's a good father and great around the house.  Because I think that long term, you're going to be primary income earner and financial controller and he will be the parttime worker who's also doing the lion's share of housework.  If you were to go part time raising the kids, you simply wouldn't be able to trust him to support the family. 

 

[BaileyB]

18 minutes ago, basil67 said:

any person with responsibilities knows that you need to get a new job with similar pay before you leave the old job.

This. Also - taking a job that pays less and taking a second job that will exhaust him and take more time away from his family and his own free time is probably not a good plan. There may be some exceptions - if he is able to reduce hours and work a side job from home that is a passion and pays well… maybe. But, if he’s planning to work a full week for less money AND take on a second job to try and make up the difference - that’s a bad plan. For him. For your family. If he wants to leave his current job, I would encourage him to keep looking for something different that has a similar salary. 

You may also need to adjust your expectations. While it’s nice to have a second child and work part-time/stay at home, a lot of families can’t afford this anymore. As you’ve already done, the new house may be a few more years away if he takes a pay cut… I would present the options and let him think about what he thinks is the best decision for himself and for your family. I would try to be kind - I want you to find a job that is what you want… but we also have financial responsibilities. How can we work together to make this work? 

Unfortunately, it sounds like you have developed a pattern where you are the manager and you are telling him what he needs to do (as it relates to finances). Over time, this tends to breed resentment - on both ends. I know that he shuts down when you try to talk money, but I have to say… I would too, you seem pretty intense about this discussion. I do understand why - negotiating finances in a marriage and dealing with the financial reality of the day is stressful… I would say, think about what you need to be able to stay in this marriage and let him come up a plan to meet his end of the deal. If he doesn’t, maybe you have some thinking to do… 

ETA - I would give in the way that basil suggests, you work and he takes more responsibilities around the home/with the kids. Although, I’m not sure that’s what you really want. But, you’ve got to stop paying for the big/joint purchases. If he can’t pay his share, it doesn’t happen. That would be my new rule.

 

Edited October 18 by BaileyB

[Worried32]

32 minutes ago, basil67 said:

OK 'poor work ethic' was a bad choice of words.  I too know what it's like to have a stressful job which is taking a toll.  But any person with responsibilities knows that you need to get a new job with similar pay before you leave the old job.   Instead of 'wishing' he could stick with it, I'd be much more firm and tell him that the two of you simply cannot afford for him to do this.  If need be, remind him how all your finances were used up getting him out of debt.  Yes, it may bring shame, but it's also reality.

I'm glad to hear that he's a good father and great around the house.  Because I think that long term, you're going to be primary income earner and financial controller and he will be the parttime worker who's also doing the lion's share of housework.  If you were to go part time raising the kids, you simply wouldn't be able to trust him to support the family. 

 

I appreciate that advice. I always end up feeling bad for him and try my best to be fair. I want to be firm with him about taking a pay cut but haven’t wanted to make him feel forced to do it if that makes sense and end up resenting me. I try to make him aware of the realities of life if he does as I refuse to fund anymore major expenses. Maybe a way I could approach it is if he sticks with this job until another similar opportunity arises or until he has some savings where he can afford a pay cut? 

[Worried32]

29 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

This. Also - taking a job that pays less and taking a second job that will exhaust him and take more time away from his family and his own free time is probably not a good plan. There may be some exceptions - if he is able to reduce hours and work a side job from home that is a passion and pays well… maybe. But, if he’s planning to work a full week for less money AND take on a second job to try and make up the difference - that’s a bad plan. For him. For your family. If he wants to leave his current job, I would encourage him to keep looking for something different that has a similar salary. 

You may also need to adjust your expectations. While it’s nice to have a second child and work part-time/stay at home, a lot of families can’t afford this anymore. As you’ve already done, the new house may be a few more years away if he takes a pay cut… I would present the options and let him think about what he thinks is the best decision for himself and for your family. I would try to be kind - I want you to find a job that is what you want… but we also have financial responsibilities. How can we work together to make this work? 

Unfortunately, it sounds like you have developed a pattern where you are the manager and you are telling him what he needs to do (as it relates to finances). Over time, this tends to breed resentment - on both ends. I know that he shuts down when you try to talk money, but I have to say… I would too, you seem pretty intense about this discussion. I do understand why - negotiating finances in a marriage and dealing with the financial reality of the day is stressful… I would say, think about what you need to be able to stay in this marriage and let him come up a plan to meet his end of the deal. If he doesn’t, maybe you have some thinking to do… 

ETA - I would give in the way that basil suggests, you work and he takes more responsibilities around the home/with the kids. Although, I’m not sure that’s what you really want. But, you’ve got to stop paying for the big/joint purchases. If he can’t pay his share, it doesn’t happen. That would be my new rule.

 

Thank you. That’s helpful and I agree. Only thing I find is that I get why he shuts down, and it’s because he is embarrassed. I have enough empathy to understand that. I genuinely am not intense with him. I am very gentle considering and when I do propose ideas to him I will say things such as can we just try it, if it doesn’t work we can re evaluate, what are your thoughts etc. I still feel however it will lead to resentment no matter how good I am about it and I care enough about him to not want resentment building on either side. I’m not sure how to overcome this. If anyone spoke to him he would be the first to say he needs to be better. 

Edited October 18 by Worried32