Why are women not attracted to me?

[flaxcapacitor]

OK... that's an attention-grabbing whiny title, but a geniune question. Without knowing much about me, why might a guy find that just nobody at all finds him appealing? Like I'm middle-aged and have never in my life had any women be interested in me.

I'm 42 and life is fairly good... I have my own business in a career I'm passionate about, as a professional artist, my own place and and active social life. I know asking a question like this is going to prompt people to say that I need to be happy being single before I think about relationships, that I need to focus on myself and there's more to life than just being in a relationship, that being in a relationship won't magically make me happy, or if I'm going around whining that women don't like me then that's not attractive... but I'm not. I keep these thoughts to myself and people who don't know me IRL in places like this. Also, I am happy, but at the same time, having neither intimacy, sex or love in my life, that's something that's missing in my life and I feel like I'm at least allowed to want it and want to know why I've been totally unable when it's such a normal part of the lives of the vast majority.

I know it seems super defensive and aggressive to start off by pre-empting and arguing against things people might say, but I've been trying to ask this question in a few different places for a little while and each time people say things like 'you need to go out and meet women' or 'you need to sort out your own life first' and then when I try and say I'm already doing this they just won't have it, don't like being disagreed with and the thread just becomes all about how guys like me whine about being single but refuse to take advice.

OK in terms of looks, I know I'm below average, different women will find different looking guys attractive but those who would find me physically attractive are rare and my personality just doesn't seem to make up for it. I'm very outgoing, honest and generous, a good listener and a confident  communicator (even if you can tell from all this that under it all I'm not that confident in myself) and according to my friends at least, very nice. I'm clean, groomed and fashion-forward. However I wouldn't say I was charismatic especially and while I have lots of creative outlets I wouldn't say I was particularly talented at anything, like i have friends who are musicians, actors, poets etc. I can play the piano but not well enough to have anyone listen to me play for enjoyment. Possibly I'm just a jack of all trades, master of none. I have a speech impediment which I feel doesn't help (mostly cause people assume there's something 'else' wrong with me I think, they did when I was at school anyway). I just seem to have zero sex appeal... I have plenty of female friends, including my best friend and one of my best friends from my school days but I'm not viewed as f**kable to put it bluntly.

It's always been this way for me, I didn't have my first kiss till I was 21, it was a girl I'd liked for a while and she knew I liked her... I'd tried to hide it but I guess not well enough and the fact I liked her had become a bit of a joke among our friendship group. Turns out she'd broken up with her boyfriend and wanted to make him jealous... she actually said she wanted to make sure we were somewhere he could see us when we kissed. Looking back I feel like the fact it was me of all people was supposed to be ultra-embarrasing for him. By the time I was 27 that kiss and another when I was 22 were still my only ever kisses... I'd been on a couple of dates too with a friend of a friend who apparently wanted to be set up with me based on a photo but she seemed off with me in person and then accused me of stalking her (I never did, I wasn't even in the city on the dates she claimed I was stood outside her work).

Then I got into a relationship with a girl I met online, there were red flags that I ignored just because it was a chance at something I had given up on by that point, she was from the USA, I'm in the UK and we chatted a little as friends but very quickly she wanted to visit me... then she wanted to date me... then her plan to study in the UK had fallen through and she wanted to visit anyway but would need money for flights and somewhere to stay. When we were together things started with a burst of passion and I lost my virginity to her the same day she arrived but quickly things deteriorated and she was living with me for six months. She would lie, cheat and steal, create drama, go missing, get the police involved, sulk, have angry outbursts and break things, make false accusations and drive my friends away and I had a nervous breakdown and lost a week and a half of my life to total amnesia (I mean total, like zero recollection of complete periods of the very recent past). Things only became worse when I repaid the 'favour' and visited her in the USA, from the moment I arrived I felt like she resented having me there, she could send me on errands and have me pick her up when she went out drinking and she made me sleep on the sofa, we broke up when I returned to the UK.

Then nothing at all, no dates, no kiss no flirting till I was 34, when I had a brief FWB thing with another online friend, but at least one who was nice and didn't live in a different country... but we only had sex a couple of times and she's married now. and since then... again,  nothing. I've been using on-line dating but in a decade of it I got maybe a handful of matches and a few dates and nothing came of any of it.

My life has changed many times, I've lived in different cities, different countries, followed different career paths, changed my style and appearance, been passionate about different things, found different creative outlets... I'm middle-aged now I guess, and being single that whole time has given me plenty of opportunity to focus on myself. I thought maybe by now I'd have become interesting given all these different experiences, but I don't really ever get a chance to tell people about them, people don't ever ask me much about my own life and I don't want to become one of those bores who just turns conversation to himself at every opportunity.

So I don't really know why. I'm not looking for people to give super-personalised advice cos I know you don't know me and can't but just looking to understand why a guy such as myself might have such a difficult time even getting past the first hurdle and having a woman want to get to know me better.

TLDR; sorry about the wall of text, basically I've never had a woman be genuiely, sexually, into me and don't get female attention. I have good attributes and bad attributes, I'm not overwhelmingly bad and not claiming to be the ugliest, dullest guy who ever existed but also I'm not some guy who thinks he's God's gift to women... just pretty average in most regards.

Edited December 9, 2024 by flaxcapacitor

[smackie9]

Sorry but we can't answer that...but you could ask your closest female friends to help you out because they know you best or hire a dating coach to give you some tips. 

[Els]

Are you waiting for women to initiate, and then assuming nobody is interested because they're not initiating? How often do you make the first move? I'm asking this because all of your "examples" describe the woman initiating, and initiating quite aggressively in fact. I get that it's 2024, but as a hetero dude you are still generally less likely to be asked out, so if you want dates you'll have to do it.

As for your appearance, why would you describe yourself as "below average"? Is it something that you really can't change like height, or is it something that you can actually change but don't want to?

[Gebidozo]

What Els says above. The answer is fairly obvious. You were actually hiding your feelings from that first girl you kissed. The girl you lost your virginity to also initiated everything. Now, I’m all for dispensing with patriarchal gender roles, but men are just more likely to initiate, and women are more likely to respond. As a rule, women don’t like (or rather don’t notice) men who hide their feelings and are afraid to initiate stuff. Being completely open, sincere about your feelings, and actively pursuing women you like are just the basic prerequisites for potential success.

[flaxcapacitor]

3 hours ago, smackie9 said:

Sorry but we can't answer that...but you could ask your closest female friends to help you out because they know you best or hire a dating coach to give you some tips. 

Maybe, though like I say I am a bit wary of bringing this sort of stuff up with IRL people... don't want people thinking of me as some sort of whiny single pringle... or worse. We do talk about these things, same as her own dating issues but I try to pick my moments. Often when I'm with friends my problems are the last thing I want to focus on so I guess there's that too. So we haven't gone into any real depth, but it's something she's aware of.

3 hours ago, Els said:

Are you waiting for women to initiate, and then assuming nobody is interested because they're not initiating? How often do you make the first move? I'm asking this because all of your "examples" describe the woman initiating, and initiating quite aggressively in fact. I get that it's 2024, but as a hetero dude you are still generally less likely to be asked out, so if you want dates you'll have to do it.

As for your appearance, why would you describe yourself as "below average"? Is it something that you really can't change like height, or is it something that you can actually change but don't want to?

Well I wouldn't have thought being below average would be a huge issue but I'm not claiming that based on how I look, women 'should' fancy me. Just wanted to be realistic about things and when I'm trying to come up with reasons why women might like me, the way I look won't be one of them. It's things I can't really change, my big nose, my underbite and deep set eyes. I have been really overweight at times in the past, though I'm doing better now but my body is a bit of an unattractive shape... I can never seem to reach a point where I'm not 'fat'. Like when I was at university I went through a spell for about a year of being really health and fitness conscious, spending an hour a day in the gym and planning and cooking healthy meals. I lost weight and that was good, but only to a certain point then I couldn't lose any more no matter what I did despite still having moobs and being classed as obese by doctors.

I have quite bad 'resting b***ch face' which I think is probably my ugliest feature... because people make assumptions about your character based on it.

3 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

What Els says above. The answer is fairly obvious. You were actually hiding your feelings from that first girl you kissed. The girl you lost your virginity to also initiated everything. Now, I’m all for dispensing with patriarchal gender roles, but men are just more likely to initiate, and women are more likely to respond. As a rule, women don’t like (or rather don’t notice) men who hide their feelings and are afraid to initiate stuff. Being completely open, sincere about your feelings, and actively pursuing women you like are just the basic prerequisites for potential success.

I haven't made the first move in a while... I did a bit in my twenties when I was more confident. I wasn't very good at it though, I couldn't really sell myself to a woman I was interested in. When I was in high school I wouldn't have dared approach a girl I liked, but people's impressions of me back then were a lot more harsh, I got made fun of any time people suspected or picked up on me having a crush and usually the girl would be mortified. Now though... I would like to make the first move but I don't want to do anything unless I can see that she might at the very least, not be made uncomfortable by me asking. I guess through having more female friends than the average straight guy I see what it's like from women's perspective... not being able to go anywhere without being pestered by men, meeting a guy and liking him platonically but then it turns out he has an ulterior motive. I guess I don't expect to be given the benefit of the doubt that I'm not just another guy who will say anything to get laid. I feel that I can tell when attention I'm getting from a woman is nothing more than platonic or professional.

[basil67]

24 minutes ago, flaxcapacitor said:

It's things I can't really change, my big nose, my underbite and deep set eyes. I have been really overweight at times in the past, though I'm doing better now but my body is a bit of an unattractive shape... I can never seem to reach a point where I'm not 'fat'. 

If you think this is part of the problem there are options to be explored.   

Unless your nose is extraordinarily large, it's unlikely to be an issue, and the same with your eyes.  But have you spoken to an orthodontist about your underbite?   It sounds like you're not obese anymore, but is surgery or lipo an option for your body?   

Also, talk with your hairdresser to make sure your hairstyle is current, and remember to use styling product

[Ami1uwant]

You said you moved a lot?  Why? Were you hired for a job or did you just go?  Maybe you are using the constant moving as a reason to not invest in trying to have a relationship

 

have you had female friends during your adult life?

[Els]

3 hours ago, flaxcapacitor said:

I lost weight and that was good, but only to a certain point then I couldn't lose any more no matter what I did despite still having moobs and being classed as obese by doctors.

If you're medically classified as obese despite all that, could be worth getting checked (bloodwork etc) to see if everything's alright? For reasons other than dating, too.

As for the rest of your post... There's a huge difference between "pestering" a woman and asking her out politely while respecting her consent. Personally, when I was single I had no issue with a male friend asking me out as long as he respected a "no" and didn't keep pushing.

Honestly, I don't think you can even say that "women aren't interested in you" if you haven't once asked a woman out in nearly 2 decades. Most men just don't get asked out by women often, period. Not even the moderately successful and attractive ones. I think many hetero guys tend to learn fairly early in life that it's up to them to ask if they want to date.

[Gebidozo]

4 hours ago, flaxcapacitor said:

I would like to make the first move but I don't want to do anything unless I can see that she might at the very least, not be made uncomfortable by me asking.

But you won’t be able to know that until you do ask her.

There is no way around it, man. You like a woman, you ask her out, or show her your interest in her in some other way. If she feels uncomfortable, she’ll tell you, and you’ll back off, that’s all. But I doubt anyone will feel really uncomfortable if you ask nicely, politely, and accept a possible “no” for an answer.

 

4 hours ago, flaxcapacitor said:

I guess through having more female friends than the average straight guy I see what it's like from women's perspective... not being able to go anywhere without being pestered by men, meeting a guy and liking him platonically but then it turns out he has an ulterior motive.

There is a huge difference between pestering a woman and expressing your romantic feelings for her. Pestering means trying even though the woman clearly said “no”. There is absolutely nothing wrong with declaring your romantic intentions to a woman you like. On the contrary, not doing that would be having ulterior motives. 
 

 

[flaxcapacitor]

On 12/9/2024 at 8:13 PM, basil67 said:

If you think this is part of the problem there are options to be explored.   

Unless your nose is extraordinarily large, it's unlikely to be an issue, and the same with your eyes.  But have you spoken to an orthodontist about your underbite?   It sounds like you're not obese anymore, but is surgery or lipo an option for your body?   

Also, talk with your hairdresser to make sure your hairstyle is current, and remember to use styling product

My dentist seems to think my underbite is a good thing... 'strong jaw' they say. This may be the case but I think it makes me look a bit like a knuckle-dragger. I think I still am obese but I've lost over a stone in a month. I'm certainly nowhere near obese enough that I could ask for a medical intervention. Haven't been to my hairdresser for quite a while, I keep changing my mind over what I'd ask her for.

I think it's part of a larger problem, not like I'm saying I'm the ugliest guy you'll ever see, but in terms of things that might give me sex appeal, there isn't anything there. I'm not especially attractive, not very charismatic and not very talented. I have other good attributes but not 'sexy' ones.

On 12/9/2024 at 9:21 PM, Ami1uwant said:

You said you moved a lot?  Why? Were you hired for a job or did you just go?  Maybe you are using the constant moving as a reason to not invest in trying to have a relationship

have you had female friends during your adult life?

Well one of those moves for for a relationship and another one was the end of that same relationship. One was for university, other than that I've moved for work... but I've lived in the same place for almost 9 years now.

Yes, my best friend where I am now is female, but I'd say my group of closest friends, people I might hang out with just for the sake of hanging out are about 50/50

On 12/9/2024 at 10:44 PM, Els said:

If you're medically classified as obese despite all that, could be worth getting checked (bloodwork etc) to see if everything's alright? For reasons other than dating, too.

As for the rest of your post... There's a huge difference between "pestering" a woman and asking her out politely while respecting her consent. Personally, when I was single I had no issue with a male friend asking me out as long as he respected a "no" and didn't keep pushing.

Honestly, I don't think you can even say that "women aren't interested in you" if you haven't once asked a woman out in nearly 2 decades. Most men just don't get asked out by women often, period. Not even the moderately successful and attractive ones. I think many hetero guys tend to learn fairly early in life that it's up to them to ask if they want to date.

I have been in regular contact with my GP and had a check-up recently due to new medication... he didn't see any issues and I have lost weight since then too. A couple of years ago I did have doctors telling me at every opportunity to lose weight but they seem less concerned now, though I am still classed as obese.

On 12/10/2024 at 12:19 AM, Gebidozo said:

But you won’t be able to know that until you do ask her.

There is no way around it, man. You like a woman, you ask her out, or show her your interest in her in some other way. If she feels uncomfortable, she’ll tell you, and you’ll back off, that’s all. But I doubt anyone will feel really uncomfortable if you ask nicely, politely, and accept a possible “no” for an answer.

There is a huge difference between pestering a woman and expressing your romantic feelings for her. Pestering means trying even though the woman clearly said “no”. There is absolutely nothing wrong with declaring your romantic intentions to a woman you like. On the contrary, not doing that would be having ulterior motives.

I guess I just never learned how. Like I mentioned before, when I was at school, if people suspected in any way that I had a crush on a girl, that would be a social disaster for her. I might have tried to leave this behind when I went to university but I clearly wasn't very good at flirting and or asking women out. Responses were either disgust, amusement or pity. Guys around me always seemed confident that the girl they were about to approach wanted to be approached and with all the problems I knew women had with unwanted attention from the wrong sort of guys I felt that approaching a woman without her first giving a sign that I was the right sort of guy, that she might at least be weighing me up romantically just made me part of the problem. I assumed that these confident guys had either noticed this sign, or they were just being arrogant hence getting knocked back, but I've never had a huge amount of 'masculine' friends... my guy friends tend to be quite introverted and even looking over them now, those who I'm closest to have mostly never had a girlfriend so maybe I just didn't have people to learn from.

I don't really know how to break this behaviour... maybe the negative reactions I got when I was younger were even because I didn't ask her as if I expected her to say 'sure why not' so it's a vicious cycle. Either way I've never had a sign from any girl that she might be interested

Edited December 11, 2024 by flaxcapacitor

[Els]

Do you feel like the queer community might be something that you are interested in exploring - e.g. dating nonbinary people, etc? Generally speaking, gender roles are largely nonexistent in such communities, so you wouldn't be expected to make the first move. Of course, you should only do this if you think you could genuinely be interested in it, not just because you don't want to ask people out. I'm just putting it out there because lots of people just "assume" that they must be heterosexual without giving it much thought, but in reality many people are somewhere in the middle of the sexuality spectrum, just closer to one end or the other.

If you're sure you only want to date cishet women, then I'm afraid you will have to learn how to ask women out, there's no other way around it. Perhaps see if you can get a relationships counselor - not one of the "dating coach/PUA" pretenders you see on youtube, but actual professional therapists who specialize in interpersonal relationships. They might be able to help you plan your next steps.

[Gebidozo]

5 hours ago, flaxcapacitor said:

Either way I've never had a sign from any girl that she might be interested

You’re unlikely to get such a sign because you don’t want to give her such a sign first. Women mostly respond to romantic attention from men. You aren’t giving them this attention, so you can’t really expect them to notice you.

[Ami1uwant]

7 hours ago, flaxcapacitor said:

My dentist seems to think my underbite is a good thing... 'strong jaw' they say. This may be the case but I think it makes me look a bit like a knuckle-dragger. I think I still am obese but I've lost over a stone in a month. I'm certainly nowhere near obese enough that I could ask for a medical intervention. Haven't been to my hairdresser for quite a while, I keep changing my mind over what I'd ask her for.

I think it's part of a larger problem, not like I'm saying I'm the ugliest guy you'll ever see, but in terms of things that might give me sex appeal, there isn't anything there. I'm not especially attractive, not very charismatic and not very talented. I have other good attributes but not 'sexy' ones.

Well one of those moves for for a relationship and another one was the end of that same relationship. One was for university, other than that I've moved for work... but I've lived in the same place for almost 9 years now.

Yes, my best friend where I am now is female, but I'd say my group of closest friends, people I might hang out with just for the sake of hanging out are about 50/50

I have been in regular contact with my GP and had a check-up recently due to new medication... he didn't see any issues and I have lost weight since then too. A couple of years ago I did have doctors telling me at every opportunity to lose weight but they seem less concerned now, though I am still classed as obese.

I guess I just never learned how. Like I mentioned before, when I was at school, if people suspected in any way that I had a crush on a girl, that would be a social disaster for her. I might have tried to leave this behind when I went to university but I clearly wasn't very good at flirting and or asking women out. Responses were either disgust, amusement or pity. Guys around me always seemed confident that the girl they were about to approach wanted to be approached and with all the problems I knew women had with unwanted attention from the wrong sort of guys I felt that approaching a woman without her first giving a sign that I was the right sort of guy, that she might at least be weighing me up romantically just made me part of the problem. I assumed that these confident guys had either noticed this sign, or they were just being arrogant hence getting knocked back, but I've never had a huge amount of 'masculine' friends... my guy friends tend to be quite introverted and even looking over them now, those who I'm closest to have mostly never had a girlfriend so maybe I just didn't have people to learn from.

I don't really know how to break this behaviour... maybe the negative reactions I got when I was younger were even because I didn't ask her as if I expected her to say 'sure why not' so it's a vicious cycle. Either way I've never had a sign from any girl that she might be interested

 

if you have female friends, have thyou talked to them. I understand you might not want to bring this up with one you are really interested in.

 

they see your personality and can see your body vibe and what you might be doing wrong.

[Lotsgoingon]

If you are open, go to therapy. Find an excellent therapist, mediocre ones don't help.

And might be a good idea to find an excellent therapist who is a woman. 

You might just need to fix a few habits in the way you communicate.

My bet: I'm guessing that you have trouble making male friends as well. So you can learn some communication and social skills and you will find men interested in you for friendship and women interested in friendship and romance. 

Go to any mall, go to any amusement park, tourist attraction, anywhere and you will see all varieties of imperfectly looking men who have women partners. 

 

[FredEire]

I have a friend who sounds quite similar to you. He's 30, actually a relatively good looking guy, in good shape etc, but has always struggled with women badly and to the best of my knowledge is still a virgin. He hasn't really got his career together and is a bit flaky in terms of what he wants to do with his life, but that describes a lot of other people I know of the same age who don't even remotely struggle with women, so I wouldn't view it as his main issue although it's obviously something he could improve.

The main struggle as I've always seen it for him is firstly lack of initiation, as others have mentioned here. If you're standing around waiting for it to happen, it's probably not going to. Women even when interested are probably at most going to look for an excuse to start a conversation with you, if you don't pick things up and progress things from there the conversation will almost always tail off and they'll assume you're not interested or not willing to engage.

The other issue I've seen when he talks to women is that his energy is really dry and formal. Just very basic small talk about very regular stuff without any real fun or playfulness to it. So in terms of practical stuff that could be something you could work with, having a more playful demeanour. Any guy I've known who does well with women and wasn't particularly blessed with good looks usually compensated for it by being very easy-going and likeable and disarming in the sense that they made everyone around them at ease and comfortable and lifted their mood.

If you think about the kind of woman you'd like to meet, putting superficial stuff aside, I think most single guys would describe someone like this. Someone playful and joyful who brings fun and adventure into their life, without that adventure being weighed down by stressful drama.

Maybe just some food for thought. When I look at my friend I see a pretty regular, likeable, presentable guy on paper, absolutely nothing "wrong" with him. But what he's offering a woman is, well, just a bit boring and milk toast. You maybe need to connect with that part of yourself that's a little bit more playful, a little bit more weird and unusual even, and try to engage more with those around you (not just woman) coming from that place.

Also as others have said it's not rocket science but if you sense a woman is interested just go for it, and if you get rejected it's far from the end of the world. In fact you've chipped away at your reservations and sense of embarrassment making it easier the next time.

Edited December 11, 2024 by FredEire

[Gebidozo]

1 hour ago, FredEire said:

Any guy I've known who does well with women and wasn't particularly blessed with good looks usually compensated for it by being very easy-going and likeable and disarming in the sense that they made everyone around them at ease and comfortable and lifted their mood.

Absolutely true. I’ve always been curious why the women I’ve been with liked me, so I always asked them. “Cute”, “funny”, “make me smile” were common replies. “Good looking” was never mentioned.

Even legitimately good-looking guys usually have success with women not just because of their looks, but because the way those looks convey their charisma, strength of character, talent, intellect, and other attractive traits. Women would rarely seriously date a guy with the face of an Apollo, the muscles of a Samson, the brains of a wasp, and the charm of paint slowly peeling off the wall.

[FredEire]

9 minutes ago, Gebidozo said:

Absolutely true. I’ve always been curious why the women I’ve been with liked me, so I always asked them. “Cute”, “funny”, “make me smile” were common replies. “Good looking” was never mentioned.

Even legitimately good-looking guys usually have success with women not just because of their looks, but because the way those looks convey their charisma, strength of character, talent, intellect, and other attractive traits. Women would rarely seriously date a guy with the face of an Apollo, the muscles of a Samson, the brains of a wasp, and the charm of paint slowly peeling off the wall.

Yep, I've known a couple of male models too that were pretty awful with women. They got plenty of initial interest, sure, but it's not much use if you're not offering much beyond that.

I think you're an unremarkable or even unattractive looking guy you have to work much harder to make connections, that's just the reality. But on the flipside a lot of men who think they'd automatically have a crowd of women after them if they were chiselled and handsome are barking up the wrong tree.

Dating contexts matter as well. If you're a guy looking to meet a girl at a bar on the weekend the loudest guy in the room usually comes out on top. One on one dates are much different. Being a little bit quieter myself I always found the second setting brought a lot more success in dating than the first. I think a lot of guys also try and meet girls in the wrong setting that just isn't suited to their personality.

Edited December 12, 2024 by FredEire

[Trail Blazer]

On 12/12/2024 at 11:19 AM, Gebidozo said:

Absolutely true. I’ve always been curious why the women I’ve been with liked me, so I always asked them. “Cute”, “funny”, “make me smile” were common replies. “Good looking” was never mentioned.

Even legitimately good-looking guys usually have success with women not just because of their looks, but because the way those looks convey their charisma, strength of character, talent, intellect, and other attractive traits. Women would rarely seriously date a guy with the face of an Apollo, the muscles of a Samson, the brains of a wasp, and the charm of paint slowly peeling off the wall.

They say that it takes good looks to attract a woman and a good character to keep a woman.

[Trail Blazer]

On 12/12/2024 at 11:29 AM, FredEire said:

Yep, I've known a couple of male models too that were pretty awful with women. They got plenty of initial interest, sure, but it's not much use if you're not offering much beyond that.

I think you're an unremarkable or even unattractive looking guy you have to work much harder to make connections, that's just the reality. But on the flipside a lot of men who think they'd automatically have a crowd of women after them if they were chiselled and handsome are barking up the wrong tree.

Dating contexts matter as well. If you're a guy looking to meet a girl at a bar on the weekend the loudest guy in the room usually comes out on top. One on one dates are much different. Being a little bit quieter myself I always found the second setting brought a lot more success in dating than the first. I think a lot of guys also try and meet girls in the wrong setting that just isn't suited to their personality.

If it weren't for dating apps I'd probably be still single since my divorce seven years ago!  I would have had no luck meeting women in conventional settings.  

I don't have a lot of good advice for OP because I am lucky enough to have found my person and things are as good as they could ever be.

Good luck, OP.  It's a harsh world out there and the dating game can be pretty awful.  In any case, I wish you all the best, but try not to get too down on yourself if you don't have much luck.

[Gebidozo]

21 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

They say that it takes good looks to attract a woman and a good character to keep a woman.

Totally agree about the good character part. As for good looks to attract, I think average looks suffice if you have personality, charisma, charm, those kind of things. The four greatest womanizers I know personally are all short and unremarkably looking. Two are just average, the other two borderline ugly. Both have a lot of personal magnetism, passion, and are very good at what they do. Women don’t seem to mind their physical shortcomings.

[BreakOnThrough]

Pay for some companionship, get your confidence up, go from there.

[flaxcapacitor]

On 12/11/2024 at 11:03 PM, FredEire said:

The other issue I've seen when he talks to women is that his energy is really dry and formal. Just very basic small talk about very regular stuff without any real fun or playfulness to it. So in terms of practical stuff that could be something you could work with, having a more playful demeanour. Any guy I've known who does well with women and wasn't particularly blessed with good looks usually compensated for it by being very easy-going and likeable and disarming in the sense that they made everyone around them at ease and comfortable and lifted their mood.

I wonder if he's trying his best to not give off any signs of attraction.

When you can't really see anything attractive about yourself (personality or appearance) then the fear isn't so much that you'll get rejected, but that you asking her out is the worst thing a woman could imagine happening to her... ridiculous to imagine a woman seeing being a victim of a violent crime as preferable to being approached by an ugly and boring guy but that's because we're adults now and this sort of thing goes back to adolescence.

Sometimes I think it's easy for the bully to move on an mature as an adult than for the bullied... some bullies never even know they were bullies while those who endured constant humiliation and social rejection just because of who they were, what they looked like etc find it really difficult to totally let go of the fear that deep down people really haven't matured and you'd get the same sort of treatment as an adult as when you were a teenager. I mean I say teenager but more like 21-22 before you and your peers have matured past that sort of behaviour.

[FredEire]

On 1/16/2025 at 1:39 PM, flaxcapacitor said:

I wonder if he's trying his best to not give off any signs of attraction.

When you can't really see anything attractive about yourself (personality or appearance) then the fear isn't so much that you'll get rejected, but that you asking her out is the worst thing a woman could imagine happening to her... ridiculous to imagine a woman seeing being a victim of a violent crime as preferable to being approached by an ugly and boring guy but that's because we're adults now and this sort of thing goes back to adolescence.

Sometimes I think it's easy for the bully to move on an mature as an adult than for the bullied... some bullies never even know they were bullies while those who endured constant humiliation and social rejection just because of who they were, what they looked like etc find it really difficult to totally let go of the fear that deep down people really haven't matured and you'd get the same sort of treatment as an adult as when you were a teenager. I mean I say teenager but more like 21-22 before you and your peers have matured past that sort of behaviour.

Indeed. I think it's becoming more and more a problem in today's society. I was watching an episode of First Dates the other day (which is always at least a little scripted, I know), and a guy on the show professed he was terrified that his date would lose interest in him because he had accidentally spilled a few drops of a pint on himself at the beginning and it would "give her the ick". He was a pretty attractive, young guy, not somebody to look at you'd think would have such insecurities, but it sounds like he'd had such experiences before.

Such a tiny human mistake shouldn't be something to stress over. But instead of considering she might find it goofy and cute he thought that she probably had impossibly high standards and he might have messed it up.

It's this message that gets pushed that if you make one false move you're going to get brutally rejected. The good news I think is that even if you'll come across a few women like this plenty of them are still decent people who want to meet a decent guy and connect with him. It's that societal fear that can hold men back, especially young men.

So it's increasingly harder to meet a potential partner, I think that's fair to say. But the real challenge is freeing your mind enough to think, as you say yourself, I am worth it and I'm going to meet someone I can love who loves me and I have a healthy relationship with. If someone treats like like something nasty on their shoe that's entirely on them, it shouldn't say anything about who you are or your quality as a person.

Edited January 21 by FredEire