Omnipotence.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Submitting this article on wikipedia for comment:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox

[Chris777]

I had originally planned on posting the following reply into another thread, but knowing how threads can sometimes be deleted from going off topic, I figured you probably wouldnt mind if I dropped it here.

(let me know if its a problem, and I will start a new thread.

as for the omnipotents philosophy question, I will have to touch on it later .

 

 

Of course. However, the example here is based on a hypothetical world, if Adam, to this very day, as well as all his offspring, choose not to eat the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden, and it remained, to this very day, there, with nobody touching the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In this hypothetical reconstruction - the commandment to be 'fruitful and multiply' is still going to be there.

 

While we would have been perfect in this reconstruction, and there would not have been a Great Flood, which created all the Oceans - eventually, the whole planet would be full of immortal humans. This would mean, either God would have to cancel the commandment to be fruitful and multiply, which He wont do, because God never changes His commands - or He would have to accomidate it somehow, by either making the world larger, or terraforming or creating other planets around.

 

A quick responce in order not to further go off into yet another tangent.

I personally think it is foolishness to hypothesize situations like that, since the sheer volume of changes inherent to that situation are so profound that it is incomprehensible to our minds to try to conceptualize it. Along with the fact the bible warns of fables and such. Which is why I find things such as "christian fiction" extremely dangerous, particularly the damnable "left behind series" that seeks to add so much to scripture that is just flat out fantasy, leading many weak in the faith into just flat out fantasy, when compared to the light of scripture.

Like Star Wars, I was at one point a big fan, Until I began to research writing a fictionam myth myself, and ended up realizing the bible was distinctive from all other religions, that had ever been or will be, and realized that the truth of the bible had enough competition, without me adding my own ficticious and vain imaginings to the massive amount of pure lies out there. Think about it, in essence any work of fiction is a lie. And how many people do you run into daily that think that the Bible is just another myth? I know I did, I used to come into chatrooms, back before I believed the Bible, in my ignorance of what it actually said (like others that shall remain nameless ) and spout off all sorts of dounting falacies, that were all suppositions and hear say.

when I researched things myself, Initialy I believed as many people do that all "religions" had components of truth, and that we as humanity had to "weed out" the lies, in order to composit the truth. But then the more I read of all the other "beliefs" I noticed too many Diametrically opposed components in them all, and all during this the Bible was quietly un assumingly sitting in the background drawing closer to me. The more I read of it, the more Christ drew me in.

Particularly when compared to the so called "hero archtypes" put forward, by Joseph Campbell, and Carl Jung.

Quite honestly Jesus, at least on the surface, has the appearance of being a less than appealing "hero".Especially when compared to Moses, who was just a mere Prophet. Unfortunately (or fortunately for those who do in fact believe) the deeper one reads, they hopefully will realize who he in fact truely is. God is not mocked, and the bible is DEADLY serious when it states "The FEAR of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge".

I find it crushingly heartbreaking that they dont recognize him, Especially knowing what his rejection will ultimately bring. However I have Hope In that I was once Just as hopelessly, and desperately decieved, If not more so than many people I meet.

I had a discussion with a friend about how Nothing in the Christmas holiday has anything to do with scripture, and how santa, the tree, yule \, misletoe etc ,are all pagan worship creeping in. He mentioned it was like Bathsheba and Solomans other wives worshiping their false Idols, and him allowing it, leading to the fall of his kingdom. His wife discussed it with a friend of hers, and was told that everything in our homes was pagan derived, And you know what I agree. However

I also realize that unless I became like the Amish, who by being total isolationist, are disobeying the Great commision, that I can Do nothing to eliminate the idolatry. But notice how Jesus, blatantly said little about the idolatry, that He was surrounded by in a Roman world.

I suspect he realized that it was all transient, and other than direct opposition to God, tolerated it. Case in point, the rightous anger he displayed at his fathers house being perverted into a den of theves.

 

Because the Jews were crazy, and they crucified their Messiah, and choose Cesar as King rather than acknowledge Him as King. If they accepted Him as King, perhaps things would have been different. Their reaction to Jesus was known in advance by God, and even written in prophecy in the Bible.

I wouldnt call then crazy, They were, and are still decieved. Just as those who reject, Christ are, and unfortunately Many, who claimed to be christians that we are in fact having to deal with the reprocussions of in these threads, in the fact that their fruit has clearly revealed that they were infact the children of the devil.

Case in point, The so called Rapture and the pride that many "alledged" Christians have about the Jews being decieved at the 1st coming of Christ. What makes us assume we are any less succeptable to being decieved than the Jews were at christ 1st coming. Scripturally I dont see it remotely occuring like they "frame it up" to be like, if you take away their preconceptions, based on all these false teachers, and base events on the scripture, it paints a far different picture. Look at Bush many follow him as a "Christian", but if he were truely following Christ, instead of trying to please men Why did he not turn the other cheek, after 911, not to mention him calling mohammed a "prophet" and the Koran a "holy book" which clearly they are not, if one believes the biblical account, and unfortunately the warnings given about adding to or diminishing from scripture.

 

Would you, in effect, thing if the Jews response was correct, that a hypothetical reconstruct, like the one with Adam, would result in a different hypothetical world. The hypothetical world, was Jesus Kingdom would have been established 2000 years ago on earth because the Jews would accept Him as King. Cesar may have him executed as being a political rival, and Jesus would have died for the sins of everyone in that manner. When He rose from the dead, then He would establish His Kingdom with the Jews, and eventually the world (likely simultatnously)

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no because God knew we would fall before he created us

I did however hear a pastor state he believed that we were currently living in the kingdom now, and that it was established at his 1st coming ,but I dont know If i would say that I would follow that in that their are several verses that dont line up with that either.

I personally think it will be like it was during his 1st coming, where few if any remotely had a clue what was actually happening until well after it happened.

 

Other hypothetical reconstructs is - suppose the Jews, when they were in the wilderness - never complainted, completely trusted God and Moses. Well, they would have saved 40 years in the wilderness and would have been in the land of Canaan much sooner, right? So, the same thing has happened with the Kingdom, like what happened with Canaan, because of the actions of the Jews, and now we all have to suffer because of it.

Yeah but that is like blaming Adam and Eve for our own personal sin,

Adam, by listening to his decieved wife may have brought sin into the world, and "infecting" all creation. but are we not still guilty of the sins we personally comitt? We can Try and be angry at them , but We

are still sinners independent of their actions. Much of the blame is an attempt to throw the responcibility of our own personal decision to sin, and doubt God , onto someone else. (It was the woman you gave me father) Adam willingly sinned, while Eve was Decieved into it.

so many are blind to that. But of course they are also blind to the fact that men are responcible for their wives and family. Superficially the women are angered, at the assumed subservience, and lack of authority, yet they are not going to be judged to the same standard

as we as men, and teachers are.

In conclusion, the foreshadowed rejection of Jesus by the Jews, set everything back for over 2000 years. Right now, Israel is now a nation again, so the prophetic time-line is now re-established.

I wouldn't say that, I would say it has always been established by the father. Think about it, in our infintesimally short lifespans, it is extremely difficult to preach the gospel to all nations, the amount of time (so far) has been a blessing from God to reach the lost, before the End does come. I don't know when You first believed, But I was 25 before I relented to Gods wisdom, that I could not save myself, and that i had been decieved my whole life up to that point. I still find myself slipping into the false evolutionary/reincarnation inspired "reward" system of thought, about deserving, or being fit for heaven.

Buddism is far more ingrained into peoples thought systems than most choose to believe. the whole reincarnation/adaptation/growth/evolution/fitness is all satanic.

By definition Satan is the adversary to God. therefore anything opposing God, is in essence satanic, We cant serve 2 masters.

May go against logic, but logic in of itself a philosophy(religion)

 

As for the hypothetical reconstructs, I guess, that was for the purpose of illustration by contrasting a 'negative' to establish a 'positive' truth.

Thats fine for those who are strong enough to recognize the truth , but we are dealing with babes in here, and it only serves to further confuse them

[Admiral Thrawn]

Chris777, I have read through your post and have noted your comments.

Thank-you for your input. So, what do you think of the omnipotence paradox?

[Nicholas]

The article is very well-written, though it's difficult to conform to Wikipedia's POV standards in something so subjective.

 

Which parts in particular did you write?

 

The omnipotence paradox was phrased to me as : "If God is all powerful, can he microwave a taco so hot that he cannot eat it?"--the answer, of course, being that yes, being all powerful, he can, he'll just, being infinitely wise, wait for it to cool.

[Admiral Thrawn]

The article is very well-written, though it's difficult to conform to Wikipedia's POV standards in something so subjective.

 

Which parts in particular did you write?

 

The omnipotence paradox was phrased to me as : "If God is all powerful, can he microwave a taco so hot that he cannot eat it?"--the answer, of course, being that yes, being all powerful, he can, he'll just, being infinitely wise, wait for it to cool.

 

I did not write the article, I just noticed it today on wikipedia. I thought it would be an excellent point to start a discussion on the concept of omnipotence. It was a nice read-through.

 

Yeah, that make sence what you are saying. It would not be intelligent for an omnitent being to create a stone that it could not lift, so in a sence, these hypothetical logical challenges are irrelevant. Interesting, that idea was not in the article.

[Nicholas]

Oh, it makes sense now when I read it--but when you said you were "submitting" the article, I thought you meant you submit your revisions to Wikipedia.

 

I think the various sides of the argument were well-covered in the article, almost too much so.

 

It's a silly debate because it assumes the prerogative of the omnipotent is to entertain us.

 

It's a clear-cut defiance of binary logic. The question has nothing to do with God, really. When you boil all that stuff out, what remains is--Is it possible for the all-powerful to be powerless; and, either way, isn't that a limitation on its power?