Just need a head check from the ful people at ls

[riobikini]

Sal,

 

What I said in my last post is still true of women having to do with this 'confirmation of feelings' thing.

 

But the problem is, the younger they are who try to use it, the more they screw it up for the rest of us.

 

(Smile)

 

The reason for that is because they have less experience and because they DEFINATELY CAN get caught up in its most commonly provocative and often deceiving flaw: the fact that it does have the ability to plump an ego.

 

The young or inexperienced get sucked in by this, -and it backfires, leaving them with none of what they wanted out of it in the first place.

 

In fact they may even confuse themselves, -not to mention make more of a mess out of the relationship.

 

If she's young and inexperienced with romantic relationships, her ego may feel the need to be fed by esteem-boosting exercises that build her 'femme fatale' side, which is a side that is continually developing and changing throughout the lifetime of most women.

 

 

It can turn so easily into this very silly, immature game that has no reason for being, except to plump the ego of a foolish child or someone acting like a foolish child.

 

These ARE things to consider, -you are the one there in the middle of it, experiencing the circumstances, emotions, and events.

 

Ultimately, you are really the only one who will decide if its truly 'fixable, worth waiting to see, or a waste of your life, -and your love.

 

Take care.

 

-Rio

[chocolate_boy]

After NC for a while and her contacting you first all of the time, you kind of 'earn it'. She was seeing you in a new light, not needy but strong and in charge. She probably kept wishing you'd call and got butterflies when you did. You asked her out for another day but she wanted to see you that night. What does that tell you? Awesome that you played it cool. I think that the space you took for yourself allowed her to process her thoughts and of course miss you. I also think that she wants to be with you again. I don't suggest having the talk Rio suggested, that's too much, too soon, it's too heavy.

 

When you see her have a good time. Laugh, joke, play around, talk about life, the stars, etc anything but 'us'. Make sure you make eye contact though, she'll be swooning. Use your eyes, your lips (not to kiss i mean), your touch, and see how it goes.

 

This is awesome. It's like you're almost there. I really do think it's going to happen for you guys.

 

Sorry to be the "downer" here, but I have been in this EXACT situation before, just recently, my ex dumped me, I went on NC after a week, she emailed me, wanted to "meet for coffee" we did, it was cool, then she started sms messaging me everyday again, I also "played it cool", we had a few more "lunch meetings", she had been seeing another guy but she then stopped seeing him, told me no one would compare to me...

 

She was also having the "conflicting feelings" told me her mind and heart were having a tug-of-war etc.

 

We went on an evening at an xmas fair together, had wine and dinner, held hands, started kissing etc. So like you say here "I thought it was gonna happen" so I had a lighter version of the talk Rio suggested, man did it back-fire, she apologised for "leading me on", saying she just felt a little lonely, but she didn't love me, she burst into tears, fled from me and jumped in the first cab leaving me on the street on my own. Then I got an sms calling me a "headf*ck" and we haven't spoken since.

 

In one way it was a REAL ending to it I suppose, and I am ok about it all now (been on NC for almost 2 months), but never assume "it's gonna happen" just cos a few signs are there, sorry to say but in my experience, and from what I've heard, very few relationships get a second chance that works, I've had about 9 serious/semi-serious relationships in my life and I've never had a second chance or given anybody one that's lasted more than a week or two.

It just rarely happens.

 

All the reasons she dumped you are still there, you are YOU, it's YOU she doesn't want to be with, don't dispespect yourself by trying to change into someone you think she would like.

 

Fact is 95% of relationships end, even 50% of marriages end, there's too many other people to be hung up on someone that doesn't want to be with you.

 

I'd also advise against Rio's advice (again ) don't do the talk, take it from me, if she wanted to talk and wanted you back, she'll make all the moves.

 

Make you the priority here, look after number one.

Good luck pal!

[chocolate_boy]

Also what she said about it being important that I try not to interpret her actions is bothering me alot. What does it mean when your ex gives you crazy mixed signals but then warns you against interpreting them? Other than that she's crazy (and french-canadian... )

 

salmagundi

 

Don't read into them too much, read my last post, my ex was the same, my one before that was the same too, actually I've had sex with most of my ex's in the month or two after we split...

 

People's emotions dont just turn off. My recent ex knew in her mind she didn't want to be with me, but her heart still held something for me. Fact is though if they've already made their mind up to the point where they have dumped you, you've gone past the mark. Sure she probably misses you in some way (she's only human) but not enough for her to want a relationship with you, hence you get the mixed signals. I've done it myself.

[chocolate_boy]

Sal,

 

What I said in my last post is still true of women having to do with this 'confirmation of feelings' thing.

 

But the problem is, the younger they are who try to use it, the more they screw it up for the rest of us.

 

(Smile)

 

The reason for that is because they have less experience and because they DEFINATELY CAN get caught up in its most commonly provocative and often deceiving flaw: the fact that it does have the ability to plump an ego.

 

The young or inexperienced get sucked in by this, -and it backfires, leaving them with none of what they wanted out of it in the first place.

 

In fact they may even confuse themselves, -not to mention make more of a mess out of the relationship.

 

If she's young and inexperienced with romantic relationships, her ego may feel the need to be fed by esteem-boosting exercises that build her 'femme fatale' side, which is a side that is continually developing and changing throughout the lifetime of most women.

 

 

It can turn so easily into this very silly, immature game that has no reason for being, except to plump the ego of a foolish child or someone acting like a foolish child.

 

These ARE things to consider, -you are the one there in the middle of it, experiencing the circumstances, emotions, and events.

 

Ultimately, you are really the only one who will decide if its truly 'fixable, worth waiting to see, or a waste of your life, -and your love.

 

Take care.

 

-Rio

 

This is spot on, my ex had always traditionally been with a guy for 6months to a year, then dumped them, and because of the way she does it (usually over telephone or email, and out of the blue!!) the guys become obsessive, calling, writing, knocking on her door, sending her flowers at work, 100 page emails etc.

 

When I was with her, the guy before me was doing all that, she she was showing me and all her workmates his emails etc. She had got a huge ego over it, and probably thinks every guy is gonna fall at her feet and all she has to do is snap her fingers and she can get them back anytime.

(being 21, thin and blonde also probably helps her!)

 

Hence the reason it often takes someone who respects themselves enough, or has enough experience to be the one who just says "ah f*ck you then" and cleans their hands of them.

 

Let me tell you a quick story....

 

A few years ago I broke up a relationship of a few years, and I got into a rebound very quickly (about 2 weeks later) with a 19 year old uni chick, she was absolutely STUNNING looking, a cheer-leader, really popular, one of the "it" girls.

 

Anyway, she'd always been like that, had guys crying over her, she'd get bored, dump them, and she has told me

"as harsh as it sounds, I always thought how pathetic they were when they did that".

 

She was a typical 19 year old, good looking chick who thought she could have any guy, had built up the "femme fatale" mind-set.

 

So anyway I got with her, but my feelings changed after a few months, it was a classic rebound, I thought my feelings for her were strong but turned out they weren't, so I dumped her.

 

Man it messed her up, she had never experienced it before, she was devistated, crying, had to go on anti-depressents, eventually she moved city cos it hurt her so much.

 

She is now one of my best friends in the world, this all happened about 4 years ago now, she tells me I'm the one that changed her, and since then she has never disprespected a guys feelings. She has been with her fiance now for 2 years (her longest, most serious relationship).

 

She still thanks me for being the one that broke her heart, cos til she felt it herself, she could never respect others enough not to do it to them.

[riobikini]

CB,

 

RE:

 

Rio: "Look each other in the eye and talk.

 

Truthfully, realistically, honestly, and openly.

 

Tell her how you feel you've grown and let her in on some of the mistakes you know you made, giving her the reasons why you think you made them in the first place.

 

Tell her that she has your heart and everything in you.

 

Remind her that you aren't the only man who ever wanted a woman so much he felt needy and weak, but also remind her that in weakness there is strength and if she chooses friendship and not partnership with you, that your heart can't take it and will have to walk.

 

Tell her that you've noted her mistakes as well.

 

Pause.

 

Look at her, and before she begins a protest, -tell her that you love her.

 

And keep breathing til her next words come.

 

You'll have your answer. "

 

 

ChocolateBoy: "So like you say here "I thought it was gonna happen" so I had a lighter version of the talk Rio suggested, man did it back-fire, she apologised for "leading me on", saying she just felt a little lonely, but she didn't love me, she burst into tears, fled from me and jumped in the first cab leaving me on the street on my own. Then I got an sms calling me a "headf*ck" and we haven't spoken since. "

 

 

 

The 'talk' I described in a former post to Sal, was not 'the TALK' that most couples have when they are considering marriage, moving in together, etc....i.e. the one where couples acknowledge their love for each other and just have to make sure before moving to the next step.

 

The 'talk' I was referring to is the one where many of us have just 'had it' with all the monkey business, and force him/her to lay all their cards on the table.

 

If a person is 'stuck' in a confusing relationship, is feeling tremendously jerked around, and truly wants answers about the feelings of a partner towards him/her, -the 'talk' I describe is the way to go.

 

It forces an answer.

 

It ends the emotional rollercoaster between you.

 

It calls for your partner to 'fess up and 'face up' to all the nonsense and calls it what it is: foolish, childish behavior that you can do without.

 

It demands that you act as an adult and that BOTH of you you speak your mind AND your heart, once and for all.

 

It's a drastic measure to use in determining whether you have something worth even being called a relationship, at all, -and word of caution- it may not give you the answers you're hoping for, but I truly believe that, when a partner keeps you miserably dangling for wa-a-a-y-y too long, you just have to call for the cards in order to get the quality and peace -back into your life.

 

And, perhaps, closure.

 

In this conversation, you must realize you may 'lose', i.e. you may bare your feelings to him/her and get to finally hear what their feelings are, -so be prepared to walk away if the replies aren't in favor of working on the relationship.

 

On the other hand, if you both are in agreement, it could be a new beginning, a new level of understanding, and give you reason to stick together, as friends, -or as life-partners, -just be sure you only choose the one you know you can truly handle.

 

No matter what, it will somehow 'cleanse' the relationship of especially, perhaps, long-standing misunderstandings, and pave the way to more mature healthy personal growth that you can be proud of yourself for doing, -whether you walk, or stay.

 

CB, I just felt like I needed to clear up the issue about the 'talk' before it gets too out of hand.

 

(Smile)

 

Take care.

 

-Rio

[salmagundi]

Wow, thanks for all the responses...

 

So heres what's happening now. Last night I went with some friends to a show. She was there (the whole uni fine arts crowd was there...). We talked a bit through the evening, but there were lots of people to see and I just let things go and did my own thing. My friend Marie has a friend over from France who has decided to do a six month university exchange here in Québec. I actually talked to her quite a bit throughout the night and got along really well. Didnt take my mind off Virginie but it was still nice. Towards the end of the night Virginie sought me out and we talked about us a bit. She apologized for being weird the night before. I told her that actually, aside from the kiss and ensuing wierdness, that I thought that was one of thebest nights we had spent together in a long time, in terms of really opening up and communicating goes. We talked about our 'ambiguity' and I said basically that what I was after from her (us) was either "ouverture" (opening?) or "fermeture" (closure); that friendship just honestly wasnt an option at this point and that also, even if I can be patient as a stone when I want to be, I couldnt have this situation between "s'eternise" (go on forever). I said that as far as all this goes, only one of us had to decide that it was 'fermeture' but any kind of rapprochement had to come from both of us. Which was my way of saying, "take your time figuring out this dichotomy in your head, but when I decide I'm done...I'm done, so dont take too long." What else can I say?

 

She agreed with everything. When her friends offered her a ride home she declined and I offered to walk her. This show we were at is an annual show and it was our first real date this time last year. I walked her home then too. Anyway, it was a great walk...we talked and laughed and threw snowballs at each other and I got unceremoniously dumped in a snowbank adn ...well yeah. We got to her place she invited me in and we lay on her bed and...very slowly...kissed.

 

We would surely have gone all the way but I thought that would be a bad idea so we left our clothes on and a while later I went home. And thats where we are. I'll call her today, but not see her. I just want to kinda make sure that last night wasnt a meaningless impulse, but I dont think so.

 

Anyway, I appreciate all your insight. JeyDey I liked your perspective and thanks for the long post. Rio, thanks always (by the way, shes 28, so shes not ...well...that young. So I hope this isnt all an ego boosting exercise. But thanks for all the female insight.)

 

And CB thanks for the head check from the male perspective. I'll be careful.

 

So we'll see what happens next, I guess.

 

salmagundi

[riobikini]

Sal,

 

RE:

 

Sal: " We got to her place she invited me in and we lay on her bed and...very slowly...kissed.

 

We would surely have gone all the way but I thought that would be a bad idea so we left our clothes on and a while later I went home. "

 

You just earned HIGH MARKS with this!

 

And the snowball fight was priceless!

 

(Smile)

 

-Rio

 

" I do not know what tomorrow brings, but this memory of today is enough."

[salmagundi]

Hey Rio and everyone else,

 

So now that we have reestablished something between us...we're physical again, we're not just friends and we're no longer "broken up" what are we exactly?

 

What I mean is, is the fact that we're kissing and etc. mean that we have reestablished 'the relationship'? Or should I approach this as though we are simply dating all over again and just play it by ear? Should I avoid trying to 'define' what we are or is this exactly what I should do to prevent things from being ambiguous? You see, we got back together physically but at no time said 'ok we're boyfriend girlfriend again' or anything like that. We just kissed...

 

I guess what is in the back of my mindis CB's posts about this being just about her being lonely and looking for some ex-sex tobridge the gap...and that this will just be over again soon enough.

 

So...do I just play along and see where it goes as though we are just dating..or do we need to actually 'talk' about what it is we are (a couple again?) and what it is we are doing?

 

Thanks for telling me what you all think,

 

salmagundi

[riobikini]

Sal,

 

RE:

 

Sal: Hey Rio and everyone else,

 

So now that we have reestablished something between us...we're physical again, we're not just friends and we're no longer "broken up" what are we exactly?

 

What I mean is, is the fact that we're kissing and etc. mean that we have reestablished 'the relationship'? Or should I approach this as though we are simply dating all over again and just play it by ear? Should I avoid trying to 'define' what we are or is this exactly what I should do to prevent things from being ambiguous? You see, we got back together physically but at no time said 'ok we're boyfriend girlfriend again' or anything like that. We just kissed...

 

 

 

"..what are we exactly?"

 

New.

 

You are new.

 

You are just meeting and getting to know each other for the first time.

 

At least, its the frame of mind you should be coming from.

 

I know -you know, she knows- that you do have a history together, but for now, it should be logged away to the back of your mind and only pulled out for your reference when necessary, and only when you are alone, -but not with her.

 

Right now, you are starting something that didn't exist before because you have removed yourself from old patterns of behavior.

 

THIS is the part where you remove yourself from old ways of thinking.

 

Your mind and your body must both agree and, -even if you wind up having to bail from the relationship, you will find the intellectual basis of this exercise both reasonable and valuable. It will stay with you -and I promise- you will use it to work through other relationships of nearly any type the rest of your life.

 

Point: If someone is hell-bent on a goal, they must be equally as prepared to go through the rigors of the drills to achieve it.

 

And that takes discipline.

 

Changing your thinking is more difficult than changing your behavior.

 

We've actually put much of the cart in front of the horse here, with this business of your Virginie.

 

But the thing that makes that OK is the fact you did recognize some critical areas you knew needed change and truly 'fessed up to it and began the changes before this event, even knowing you still didn't have Virginie.

 

Which is probably some of the reason you are where you are right now, seeing her again, -and her seeing you in a new light.

 

You committed to those changes whether you were going to have her or not, for your own benefit, -and not necessarily for hers.

 

That was good news.

 

And a significant bit of progress.

 

Now, instead of dealing with how you think about yourself, you are dealing with how you think concerning Virginie.

 

There is no 'us', yet, concerning the two of you as a couple at this new crossroads...you must look at it as if you are only in the beginning stages of forming something.

 

And that 'something' is still, as yet, undetermined, although, you know what you hope for.

 

This is a new path.

 

Think: "You haven't been here before."

 

Because you really haven't been here before, -you've never looked at things in just this way.

 

So in answer to your question about the kiss.

 

It was a kiss.

 

The same kind of kiss you would have shared if it had been the first time you had walked her home.

 

And the snowball fight was the first fun you had together.

 

And the the next time you see her will only be your second 'date'.

 

So far, Sal, you have turned this around yourself, but there is only one thing I see that keeps consistently popping up and could be a cause for breakdown: the rush to see results.

 

Work on that.

 

Rushing results has the power to kill the progress.

 

And work on the anxiety that comes from wanting the results right away, as well.

 

Patience is a virtue, so says Muhammad, Christ, and Buddha, -but did they ever meet your Virginie?

 

(Smile)

 

Take care.

 

-Rio

[Jey Dey Dey]

This is awesome. Just breathe, don't dissect things, don't rush conversations/talks for feelings both are not sure of. Forget what you had. You don't want to go back to what you had. It's like your starting from scratch. This is the time where you apply what you learned while you were apart. Don't go back to old behaviors. It is what it is, that's all, don't look for titles.

[chocolate_boy]

Must say, I completely disagree Rio

 

As you already know S, I have been in this situation before, you ARE still broken up, and it worries me that you appear to be falling way back into her again, trust me there's nothing worse than doing that when nothing might happen.

 

I've been on both sides of this, when I broke up with my fiance a few years ago we continued to sleep together and date for a few months, but in my heart I didn't want her back, so this delayed her healing and was really selfish of me.

 

This is actually more common than you may think, but it is often part of the break-up process, a lot of couples have a month or two of this after a relationship, but as I said, don't assume she wants you back, she obviously is still attracted to you, but that doesn't mean she wants to try again.

 

There is no way you can act like this is a new relationship, it's not, unless you have had a few years apart and dated other people etc. it could just be the final dying stages of an expired relationship. Infact I have had some of the nicest most romantic times with girls in the weeks after we've broken up, my recent ex and I, a week after we split, were in the mountains late at night in late september, her lying on me watching the stars together and telling me she wished this night could last forever! She didn't think we could and she still ended it.

 

If you can just forget all the past and pretend you've just met her etc. (which i believe is impossible) then why not just save the likely heartache and date someone new?

 

I know, I know, you love her, but if she dumped you, unless she is missing you so bad and telling you she made the worst mistake ever and loves you, then I think you're leaving yourself open to some HUGE hurt and heartache here dude..

 

I only say it as I have been in this exact situation, and thought and tried all the things you are saying, but in my experience, it's always ended in tears.

 

Be very cautious, and please stop getting your hopes up so much. Just chill, see her if you believe you are strong enough for it not to bother you if she changes her mind or starts dating someone else while you are still in touch (yep I've had that too ! ).

 

You want my advice? Make YOU the priority here and let her make all the moves.

 

My experience has now taught me, the next time a girl says she doesn't want to be with me, Ill help her pack her bag right there and then, I seriously don't believe anything you can do or say can change their mind, they need to to do it all on their own. Best thing you can do is back right off, act like it's over, start moving on, let her do all the work if she wants you back, cos she will if she has any desire for you still.

[riobikini]

CB,

 

Since your 'other' side of the coin is very valuable for Sal, I will wait until he reads your post in order to reply.

 

We both have strong, but seemingly opposing points, I guess, due to individual interpretation of the advice being given, -and they are both worth the consideration.

 

(Smile)

 

Take Care

 

-Rio

[skeptik224]

After reading the posts from the weekend, my input may be kind of straggled. I was going to comment on posts frombefore - whether she is playing a game or not, but it seems irrevelant now. (I really don't think she is though intentionally) I think she's very confused. Man, Sal...our situations are so similar it's scary. (although now, I'm not talking to her) Anyway, I agree with Rio (as usual) You need to change your thinking. Do not force any definition of your relationship. That's what gets you in trouble. You don't need a label. You know she's interested in you....and you are interested in her. You don't need any words of exclusivity. That was your first date. You need to take baby steps and just let things go. You've been thinking about yourself and what you need and have made HUGE steps within yourself to get to that point. You need to continue on that path. Do not crown her...do not look for clarity between the 2 of you. I imagine this back/forth thing will go for some time. You will slowly get the answers you need as far as the relationship goes. I wouldn't necessarily call her to see if the other night had any effect. Please, Sal..please take it slow. I only wish I had. If I get that opportunity again, turtles will be moving faster than I. (although not sure if I even want to still be with her - but that's a whole other story) I'm very, very happy for you Sal...your growth is so apparent throughout your threads...keep on that same path.

[salmagundi]

hey Rio, j-d and CB,

 

you guys capture pretty well my dilemma. Of course if I'm going to continue with this then i will have to go slow and not try and define things.

 

Nothing new has happened as I took sunday for myself and hung out with some friends. I called her in the afternoon just to see how she was doing. We talked briefly and arranged to meet tonight at the university to see a film thats playing there tonight. So far so good. No indication that she's having any second thoughts about saturday. Me either, although...

 

Hmmm...

 

OK, I'm gonna give you a Loveshack exclusive. I havent talked to anyone about this. Mainly because...I'm too confused.

 

I love virginie. she's beautiful and we are very much alike and I would like very much that we find ourselves in some kind of meaningful and deep relationship.

 

But the girl from Strasbourg that I was talking about yesterday, the one that I was talking too saturday night? That was the third time I've seen her. The first was at Marie's house and the second was at university...because her locker is right next to mine (I had to show her how to use a combination lock to get into it...they dont have lockers in France apparently). We...uhh...definitely have chemistry. No matter what happens with Virginie I want to get to know this woman as a friend.

 

My dilemma? Now that I'm, if not over Virginie obviously, but am in a place where I could be over her, thats when I meet someone else that I'm interested in and thats when me and Virg finally start getting back together and I'm agonizing over whether I'm making the right choice. Like CB says, her behaviour could be just normal postbreakup behaviour and she could leave me high and dry in a month or two. And...our relationship has never lacked for violent passion, even when its gone tits up...but at times it has really sucked. I mean she has been really difficult to deal with. So that makes me think that if...oh jeezus I dont know what I'm trying to say.

 

I'm confused. If this were to work out wonderfully between me and Virginie thhan great, thats what I want. But if it doesnt, if we end up back at square one than I know I will regret not just getting out now. If she doesnt REALLY want to be with me I know she should just leave me now so that I can find someone else. Perhaps that is why a part of me is impatient to know what she REALLY wants so I can know I am not wasting my time when I have other options.

 

Add to that a certain worry that we got together saturday night precisely because Virginie saw me getting along with this other girl. Maybe it was her territorial impulse/jealousy that compelled her to come back to me that night.

 

After all these weeks of agonizing about Virginie I know this sudden ambivalence must sound really stupid. But I honestly am confused. My heart wants Virginie. My head knows that she could be bad for me and thinks maybe seeing if this other girl really is interested in me could be a good idea. Some people tell me love should be hard because anything easily won is not worth having. Others say that falling in love should feel like the easiest thing in the world or its not the real thing.

 

this is all clear as mud, I imagine.

 

take care all,

 

salmagundi

[skeptik224]

This is similar to what Caliguy went through. When they come back around, we don't necessarily want them.

[salmagundi]

Hey skeptic, I was wondering where you were. Your advice about going slow is spot on. So far I havent put her back on her pedestal or anything. Even the phone was just a "hi, just calling to see how you are doing..." Nothing specific, just the sort of call I would have made if saturday night really WAS the first time we had gotten more physical.

 

As to my last post, don't think too much of it. If anything I think I am just trying to convince myself that I dont want Virginie THAT much just to protect my own heart. And as a way of maintaining a certain aloofness...right now thinking about other women while me and her are still, after all, not 100% back together or 'defined' does help me to keep perspective and keep a realistic attitude about things. I do want me a her to work out, i just am afraid to put myself out there again only to get burned again.

 

Thanks again. I take it, Skeptic, that there hasnt been any progress with your ex? I havent seen you post on it in a while...

 

salmagundi

[skeptik224]

I didn't look at it in that way...good point. I totally understand about not putting yourself totally out there - protecting you is most important. As far as things on my end...nothing has changed. It's been 1 week since our last e-mail. It's not very hard right now for me not to contact her. It's the 2 week mark that will kick my ass seeing as that's the longest we've ever gone without talking. I vowed to myself that I'm not going to reach out to her first. I did that this last time, and it hurt that she was so cold and in short, blew me off. I often find myself wondering if I even want her back or the relationship. It fluctuates depending on my mood. Don't get me wrong...if she were to get in touch with me and want to talk about working it out. I'd be open for discussion. However, I refuse to contact her. Call it playing games but first time shame on you, second time shame on me. (Shame on her for blowing me off last week via e-mail - shame on me if I reach out again) I'm still sad and think about her a lot, but I find myself thinking differently at times. Instead of "she won't ever want me back" I try to think "If she comes back, I might not take her." I'm trying to put the control back in my brain. I overanalyze everything to death, and all it did was hurt me. We've been on this emotional roller coaster for way too long, and it's time I got off the ride. She knows I love her. She knows she the love of my life. She knows - as of last month - what I want from her - to get to know her again as she gets to know herself. She's choosing not to let me in. This party stage will end for her...these people she's dating can't compare to me and what I have to offer. Her friends - some of them - are bar friends for the most part. In time, things will wear off. I hope that she takes time to reflect on things and figure herself out before she looses the best thing...me. Thanks for asking.

[riobikini]

Sal,

 

RE:

 

Sal: " I'm confused. If this were to work out wonderfully between me and Virginie than great, that's what I want. But if it doesn't, if we end up back at square one than I know I will regret not just getting out now. If she doesn't REALLY want to be with me I know she should just leave me now so that I can find someone else. Perhaps that is why a part of me is impatient to know what she REALLY wants so I can know I am not wasting my time when I have other options."

 

 

I know just what you mean by keeping you're 'options' open.

 

I know it sounds like you are somehow 'de-valuing' the relationship with Virginie, -but I have had those same thoughts when I could see and feel things breaking down with my ex.

 

I have never had any problem attracting people of the opposite sex (and some of the same sex, too -but that's another story -Smile), but I do understand what you're saying about not wanting to waste your time with someone who may wind up not being a part of your life, after all, and missing out on other possible connections.

 

Dozens of times, while my ex was away, (doing whatever, and often), I felt unacknowledged and almost abandoned by him.

 

I had loads of really nice people who wanted to get to know me, but I turned them down because of the jerk I was with, thinking that he had his sh*t together and really did care about me.

 

Now I think, "What a waste!"

 

I invested too much time with my heart and emotions with this person and now he's gone.

 

I realize I let those emotions form too soon, in my case, though.

 

It was just that he seemed so sincere with his words.

 

At least, the few words that he did manage to speak to me, and I held onto them and built something out of them that didn't really reflect anything he was truly feeling.

 

Which was simply lust.

 

So, Sal, -as shocking as your statement may be to some, I do understand.

 

Keep the options open, my friend, -you cannot be a fair guide to yourself without them.

 

Take care.

 

-Rio

[salmagundi]

Hey everyone,

 

Thanks again for all the help...I need it...I realize that this kind of situation is something I've never dealt with before and therefore dont really know how to deal with now. But here's whats happening now and what its making me think (thinking is, however, something I should try and do less of)

 

We met up last night to see a film. We talked a little bit before, we had a good time. I was cool and laid back and we got along well. Saturday night is in the back of my mind, as was wondering what she thought of it and where she thought we were now...but anyway, didnt bring it up.

 

After the film I was thinking she might ask me walk her home, which could mean...well...anything (sorry, I'mhorny as hell right now). But instead she offered to walk ME home. This is Virginie-speak for "the night is now over and you arent getting any" because if I was we would go to her place as she lives alone. I have three roomates and next to zero privacy.

 

So I'm a little shut down, but I dont let on, I'm just like "oh..alright" so we walk home and make small talk. Joke a bit but nothing else. At my door she hugs me really tight for a several minutes. This interminable hug thing is indecipherable to me. I dont know if its meaning is erotic, amoureuse or just 'love you like a friend'. Anyway, weface each other, still in each others arms and I kiss her forehead, then her cheek and then her lips...but....no, she doesnt return it. She doesnt pull away either but just looks at me.

 

Now, all I was going for was a goodnight kiss. I figured that after rolling around on her bed two nights before that I was in at least that far...but no.

 

So to recap. Friday she kisses me but when I kiss her back...its not on, I'm denied. Saturday night she takes me home and we're all over each other like dogs in heat. Two nights later a goodnight kiss...is not on. I don't know what to think. I dont want to put pressure on her but... I don't know if I like this ambiguity...much less not knowing when I can and cant be the least bit physical with her. Does this sound right from a reconciliation point of view or is she playing me hot and cold still?

 

So where am I now? We parted without making any plans, just "see you soon". Left on my own I would say I will not call her and let her call me, since she seems to be wanting to call the shots anyway. But part of me wants to say to her "listen, we are everybit as ambiguous today as 3 months ago when we first started breaking up. So whats changed that we should still be seeing each other as opposed to just calling it over and moving on?" I know this makes me sound impatient and I know you Rio, would probably counsel me against pushing like this. But this is a little confusing, isnt it?

 

At any rate, I think I've decided that I'm still too available to her. It pisses me off a bit thinking that I'm always going to be here waiting for her while she flutters in and out around me, without ever quite landing. I think I want to ask the girl from France out for maybe just a coffee. I dont think I care if Virginie finds out.

 

Its so hard, at least for me in this situation when to call it quits and move on...How to decide that she's just playing with me or she just needs patience...

 

At least my life is a challenge...I'm definitely not bored.

 

Thanks for any words of wisdom to keep me on the right track with this...

 

salmagundi

[skeptik224]

You and Virginie were at the EXACT same point my ex and I were at about a month ago. Short recap - we e-mailed all day...I told her I didn't want to be just friends. I wasn't ready. She understood. Then the seriousness of the e-mails changed to flirting. She came by that night to get some stuff and we ended up kissing. She made comments on how well I know her and how good I am. Anyway, we never talked about that e-mail. We did the e-mail/text thing once a week for 2 weeks. I've finally come to the realization that I need to let go of her in my heart. It's the HARDEST thing I've ever had to do. This break-up - by far - is my hardest. Bottom line is that my ex is scared. (or at least was) She's scared of me and everything that I am. I wouldn't push the issue, Sal. Take it for what it's worth...it was a date...she's going to do this back/forth thing until either you're ok with it or you've decided to move on within your heart. Trust that if it's meant to be, it'll be. (as hard as that is and as crappy as that sounds) She knows you are a great catch, and sometimes the greatest catches are the ones that get the ****-end of the deal. I'd say you need to back off. If she goes to kiss you the next time, why don't you back away or not return it? There's no reason you shouldn't ask this other girl out. Virginie is playing games although I don't think she's doing it intentionally. I think she's seriously confused. She needs to realize that you won't wait around forever. Att imes I wish I was in your position, but you're right, you are no further along than you were 3 months ago when the break up happened.

[CaliGuy]

Good advice, Skeptik.

 

I went through something similar with my ex. In the end, I was the one who really didn't change. I wanted something she wasn't ready for with me. Had I just backed off and given her the space she needed I imagine things would have turned out differently. I never let her just be herself. I tried to change her and I wasn't secure in myself.

 

Now that I am, I can see why things happened this way.

 

Be secure in who you are. Let her come to you. I do recommend you go on a date with this other girl. You don't want to play games, this Virgine does. Let her know that you're not going to play.

 

It's fair to you and it would be her loss if she doesn't come around. But if you continue to nibble at every bite she gives you, you'll be in limbo forever.

[riobikini]

Sal,

 

RE:

 

Sal: "....part of me wants to say to her "listen, we are every bit as ambiguous today as 3 months ago when we first started breaking up. So whats changed that we should still be seeing each other as opposed to just calling it over and moving on?" I know this makes me sound impatient and I know you Rio, would probably counsel me against pushing like this. But this is a little confusing, isn't it? "

 

I do suggest you go on with your day-to-day plans.

 

The emphasis is on, a) NOT expecting Virginie to do ANYTHING, b) accepting the distance between you (which has, by the way, already defined you as 'single' and 'non-committed', in answer to your earlier question), and c) -live in the MOMENT.

 

If you aren't expecting Virginie to do anything, you are free to 'unfocus' on her behavior and pay more attention to how your own life is going without her.

 

By accepting the facts as they are, -unresolved but still curious- in regards to the definition of your relationship with her at this point, -you are obviously 'unspoken for', which makes you a healthy, good-looking, attractive male who has the right to make good use of any other 'options' that come wafting by.

 

By living in the moment, you are allowing the opportunity for the fun to re-ignite in your life again.

 

Sal, -the whole purpose of life is to live it.

 

NOTE: After reading over your posts again, I actually think you have come farther with the discovery of who you are apart from Virginie than you realize. Some major thought processing has obviously, been silently occurring in the background of your mind. And I suspect that, over the next few weeks, these changes in how you think are just going to grow and strengthen you enough that you 'take back your life' again, -with or without Virginie.

 

I think it's going to be 'all about Sal'.

 

I also think it's about damn time.

 

(Smile)

 

Take care.

 

-Rio

[riobikini]

Oh, almost forgot...I know others are going to think this is 'bad' advice, but, -about the being 'horny' thing...

 

Sal, the way I see it, to hell with what others say, -and Katie-bar-the-door-

 

GO GET YOU SOME!!!!

 

-Rio

[chocolate_boy]

Oh, almost forgot...I know others are going to think this is 'bad' advice, but, -about the being 'horny' thing...

 

Sal, the way I see it, to hell with what others say, -and Katie-bar-the-door-

 

GO GET YOU SOME!!!!

 

-Rio

 

Yeah sure with other girls, but don't lead them on too much, take it easy and relax off all relationships for a while.

 

Best advice is just to have yourself some fun and do what YOU want to do.

[riobikini]

CB,

 

Ditto!

 

It's nice to see that we are both in agreement on this one.

 

i.e. "with other girls" and "relax off all relationships for a while. "

 

Meaning NOT with Virginie...and don't go forming other serious connections, right now.

 

Keep it 'light'.

 

And take care of the 'needs' in an 'out-of-sight' fashion, -er, don't go public with it.

 

Also, make sure, the person you're taking care of the 'needs' with, knows that's all it is, -don't mislead anyone, and the more brief you make that kind of contact, the better....there'll be less risk of attachment.

 

The world we live in doesn't like to admit this is normal behavior based on ourselves, as individuals, and that some of us, both male and female, are going to take this route.

 

The decision is a very personal one, and should not be blasted simply because it's wrong for someone else.

 

Human beings are meant to love in many different ways, and seeking the warmth and comfort of another, even though there are no deeper feelings attached, is just one of our, perhaps, most intensely driven functions.

 

Reacting on them to settle a 'needs deficit' is natural response; reacting on them with a clear-cut goal in mind is just wise.

 

If you choose it, know that emotions are often very closely behind, waiting for opportunity to emerge, so be careful in how you handle it.

 

Again, keep it brief, private, and 'needs-based' only.

 

And enjoy it.

 

(Smile)

 

-Rio