Clueless?

[Kisu]

I confessed by letter to my best male friend almost a month and a half ago that I had romantic feelings for him, he replied with a two page letter detailing how he felt the same all along but was afraid to wreck the relationship we had, and had never felt his way before. We agreed that there was something special, and we were both ready to be more than friends. It was a hard step, because we are both somewhat shy...

 

Having the ‘green light’ I’ve tried to get the ball rolling by giving occasional hugs when I saw him, linking into his arm when we walk sometimes, initiating cuddle time or starting wrestling matches when we’re on the couch, I even gave him a small gift at x mas. It all felt right. Friends call us boyfriend and girlfriend, and I refer to him sometimes as my boyfriend – but recently I often wonder if that’s what we are because…

 

Since the confessions we really have done nothing exclusively alone together… we have gone out for weekends or evenings with friends, and had maybe an hour alone in total, but no ‘quality time’ alone for the two of us. I guess I was expecting him to loosen up and ask me out, or something, after my letter. Once when we were talking online he randomly typed, “I guess I could take you skiing sometime…” but there was never any follow up despite the fact I told him (more than once) that I’d love to do that.

 

The thing that concerns me most is that while he usually responds to things I initiate (if I hug him he’ll hug back, etc…), he rarely, if ever, does any of the initiating himself. He very rarely shows any affection on his own, I almost always have to start it. I know he doesn’t really like pda’s, so I respect that, but even when we’re in more private places he won’t make any moves unless I start.

 

I’m confused because I feel both that he may be clueless about what to do around a girl he likes (as he has never had a girlfriend or even close female friend before me), but I also feel he may not be as interested as he said he was in his letter. I’ve always thought that if a guy really liked you, he’d show some initiative… maybe he's shyer than I thought? I don't know anymore...

 

It’s clear we need to talk, but what should I say to him and in what tone?

[Defcon]

You have tried, thats all you can do. Try backing off a little bit for a couple days. Put the ball in his court, if he dosen't "pursue" a more intimate relationship, he probly wont.

[cygny]

maybe he is what is known as a 'feminine-energy' guy and would welcome you taking the lead and asking him out, doing the things a guy normally would do...while he takes the passive/responsive role...he did respond well to your letter, so that's a clue that this may be the case...so if you are comfortable with that...just go ahead and take the lead (male role) and also means you do the paying...see if he likes that...

[Outcast]

Why not try this amazing thing called 'talking'? (Sorry for the sarcasm but the other answers are bugging me). Say to him that you thought your relationship would change after your exchange of letters and ask him what he's thinking.

[barfool]

I agree with Outcast. It's always best to be honest and upfront, especially in relationships. You've got the hard part of the confession out of the way. Now build on it by talking in person about what it is that you and he want.

[SuperFantastico]

Why not try this amazing thing called 'talking'?

 

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

 

I feel both that he may be clueless about what to do around a girl he likes (as he has never had a girlfriend or even close female friend before me)

BINGO!

 

hes shy and hasnt had a girlfriend before. I think you might have to pickup the ball and maybe kiss him or something. I use to be very shy like this too.

 

........and i did the letter thing......

[Kisu]

Thanks for all the replies!

 

You have tried, thats all you can do. Try backing off a little bit for a couple days. Put the ball in his court, if he dosen't "pursue" a more intimate relationship, he probly wont.

That's the way I've always thought... but with shy guys I think it just makes it worse? Then again... though I'm quite shy myself I've overcome some of it because I wanted a deeper relationship with him that badly.

I'm so confused...

 

 

Say to him that you thought your relationship would change after your exchange of letters and ask him what he's thinking.

Now build on it by talking in person about what it is that you and he want.

I think I know what I'm going to say now... but getting him alone and somewhere comfortable where I have his undevided attention, wow, that's going to be tough.

 

 

hes shy and hasnt had a girlfriend before. I think you might have to pickup the ball and maybe kiss him or something. I use to be very shy like this too.

Some of my other male friends keep telling me this (ie. kiss him, even if he turns beet red and/or faints -- and I could see that happening...).

If our talk goes well, I probably will kiss him.

Though the question that grates my mind is, how many times am I going to have to pick up the ball before he can throw it back?

 

 

maybe he is what is known as a 'feminine-energy' guy and would welcome you taking the lead and asking him out, doing the things a guy normally would do...while he takes the passive/responsive role...

Interesting thought. Though I kinda hope that isn't the case. I don't mind making a few first steps to get things going, but I'd really prefer it if he took the 'lead', or met me half way at least.

[SuperFantastico]

You'll only have to kiss him once. Its a mental barrier thing. He should be good after this. Sometimes people build the little things into a huge deal, thus screwing themselves up(er i mean a kiss and such. I did this)

[Kisu]

Ok, well I have a feeling this is over before it even started…

 

I waited for exam week to be over (everyone including myself, have been running around stressed and busy and tired and whatnot), and then I sought him out on instant message, which (both being computer geeks) has always been our main way of contacting each other. We have some free time now between semesters and I wanted to arrange a day when we could just hang out and do something alone together for once (and most importantly, talk about what's going on between us now!).

 

The times I did find him online, his replying was very slow or not at all, as after we exchanged hellos he immediately started playing a full screen game, which covers the chat program. Obviously the game was more important... he just didn't care to talk at all... Last time this happened, I got fed up and just left a message saying – when you’re not busy, call me and let’s do something together. I realise now, that was probably futile…

 

More and more I feel like he's doing that “get rid of her by ignoring her and disappearing” thing. I had a guy play that game with me before and I’m always looking out for it now…

I’d rather he just tell it to my face if he’s not interested but it’s getting harder and harder for me to talk to him anymore, as I’m getting shyer with him each time I feel rejected, blown off, or taken for granted.

 

It’s funny because I specifically said in my letter that he was giving mixed signals and wanted to know if he just wasn’t interested, and he replied very elaborately that it couldn’t be further from the truth. I’ve never caught him lying before, however now I wonder if he was lying… for whatever reason.

 

Then again…

I read the forums here, and I read articles on relationships all the time, and I get confused about my situation. I hear one side saying that if he truly was interested he'd make a move, and the other side (usually personal accounts from the shy guys themselves) says that some guys truly are interested but are so shy they act indifferent to the ones they really care about. …and I could see either being true in my situation.

 

ie. he comes and sits at my bench at lunch (which he didn’t do before the letters), but either keeps to himself or talks to my friends (this particular circle of friends are all male) Doesn’t say hello or goodbye when he comes and goes… he used to quickly look back and smile at me when he left, but he doesn’t even do that now. I don’t know what to think of that…

 

Even if he is that shy, I'm darn shy myself, and I made an effort because he meant that much to me. If he can't make the effort then... well it's done isn't it?

 

I really don't know what to do at this point other than give up and tell him to ‘forget it’ when I see him again. I know if I end this, my friends, his friends, and even my sister (who were all excited when we 'got together' because they thought we would make an awesome couple), are going to tell me how foolish I am for giving up so easily. I really don’t care what they think if I end it, but I wonder if it would be foolish…

 

I feel like the clueless one now… it’s only obvious when it isn’t happening to you…

What should I do?

 

I was really itching to try SuperFantastico's idea to see if it really would break down a barrier, but I can't even get my guy alone to try it...

[cygny]

ouch, sorry, but hon i don't think you have anything to end.

 

as for why the elaborate denial from him--i've run into some people who for one reason or another which i do not understand, simply cannot say anything that would hurt someone else's feelings. that makes them too uncomfortable, and i'm guessing that this guy is like that.

 

so i suggest you just move on. you really needn't make a production or closure because it sounds like you two don't really have anything going on that resembles a real relationship. in other words, just drift away and turn your attention to more aggressive guys.

 

the only other explanation is that this guy is so extremely shy that he is just not capable of holding up his end of a relationship, and given that you are shy yourself, i honestly don't see how this can go anywhere.

[Kisu]

Oh he can say things to hurt other's feelings... he's can be quite sarcastic and is a critic at times.

 

We had a relationship at one point. We were good friends for a year and a half before the romantic aspect came in. Even though it was going good for a bit (I was thinking, wow this is the beginning of something special), adding 'romance' has made everything slowly... evaporate... into what it is now (which is... something that doesn't look like a relationship at all). He used to actually make an effort to get my attention. Keywords: used to.

 

So yeah, I agree, if he's is that shy that he can't hold his end, nothing will happen.

 

I sent him an e-mail just telling him how I feel about all this (basically what I would have told him in person). I got it off my chest. Whatever happens now, happens. That's all the closure I need, especially if he does't ever reply. I have a feeling he will, though...

[Citizen Erased]

Oooh good luck honey, hope he writes back! Keep us posted. I think you did the right thing by asking him and introducing a bit of communication in there, otherwise it would have been a dead end, again good luck

[Kisu]

I said in the e-mail I sent him that he could reply by e-mail or in person or however he liked. I was pretty sure he'd e-mail back, but nope no reply. There's a chance he hasn't checked his e-mail lately (he's known for checking sometimes only once a week), but I'm rather pessimistic about that.

I should see him in person tomrrow at school, wonder how it will play out...

 

I'm surprised at how calm I am about all this. After I mailed it I felt so much better and just went on with my regular schedule like nothing happened. I'm not freaked out like if we go our seperate ways after all this I'll die.

Though my stomach is probably going to do flips when I see him...

[monkey00]

you should probably back off.

from what u said he doesnt seem too interested in developing this relationship, or his lack of investment in this thereof.

 

he may have stated his feelings were mutual for you in the beginning, just so he wouldnt seem mean. However actions always speak louder than words and his actions state that he's 'just not into you' like that.

 

guys and girls can start acting indifferent/aloof with the person if they know that person fancies them, however their feelings arent mutual...in a sense it gets a little creepy because they dont see him/her in that light.

 

just my 2cents, dont take my advice too literally...

[SuperFantastico]

Well i did this too, i mean the ignoring thing, because i was so goddamn frustrated that i couldnt .........just do it and kiss her. So after a while of going all crazy, i would just shut down and try to be mean and get rid of her.

 

Now im totally projecting my own experiences here, but he does sound similar.

 

Basically whats happening is he likes you alot(via said crap in letter) but cant

just do it out of fear of rejection(yes i know he knows you like him, but maybe he has a low self esteem and is just putting himself down in his mind alot.)

You see(um try to keep up with my train of thought...uh i tend to jump alot)

us guys work by logic. Now if i was in this situation(oh i was ) what

i thought about was:

 

"Ok she likes me, i'll just go up and kiss her or something......uh...now....er

ok maybe in a few minutes....ok i'll just keep talking......uh maybe tommorow."

 

Then this would keep happening. I started to think trying to figure it out. And taking so long, she(the girl i liked) was probably like whats wrong with him. I'm giving him all the signals in the world.......maybe he dosnt like me.

 

So then i'd see her kinda withdrawing a bit because of me(but unbenounced

to me at the time) and be like. "Maybe she dosnt like me. Well maybe i dont like her....."

 

Anyways, its like one big downward spiral. Eventually i would feel that the only way to curb this frustration of not being able to just do it and be with her would be just to cut her out.

[Kisu]

Thanks for the imput as always, I like hearing the different perspectives.

 

 

As for what happened...

He was away for the week with his parents. So said he when I saw him in person. That's why he didn't reply.

 

Ever since my latest letter detailing my feelings, he’s been much much better. He waits for me, walks with me, always says hello and goodbye (and won’t leave until I hug him, he just stands close, facing me until I do it – it's cute - he also seems more comfortable with me hugging him ), and we talk and laugh as much as we used to… before he went ‘cold’.

 

The day I saw him in person after the last letter, I was so happy with the way he was treating me that I hugged him at the end of the day before we went home. As I was walking away he quickly said that he wanted to talk to me online as soon as we both got home. I went online when I got home but he wasn’t there. I waited about two hours, checking every once and a while I did some work. I stressed for a bit, then decided it wasn’t worth stressing over, went offline and did something else for the rest of the evening.

 

The next day I got an explanation for what happened right away. Lately he’s been having difficulty with his control freak parents. I always thought they were nice people, but now that I know more of them they just scare me the way they treat him, considering that he’s a good guy (ie. he isn’t running around at 2am drunk or high, gets decent grades in school, etc…). His parents decided to ban him from the computer that night. They’re quite old fashioned and just don’t like him on the computer for some reason. Looking back I can remember his friends telling me stories about how his parents are just weird that way. There have also been incidents between him and his parents before that I thought were odd... I didn't think of it much before now, not that I can do anything about it but listen to him vent his frustrations.

 

…but… even though he’s back to being great when we’re together in person, we still haven’t talked about the important stuff or had time alone. He never acknowledged the letter I sent him, but it's clear that he read it. I almost never see him online anymore either, so we only talk at school in person now.

 

We were supposed to do two things together this week (it's my birthday), one day going out with friends, one day alone together. ...but now he’s sick with the flu…

Sigh… it’s just one thing after another…

 

 

I think SuperFantastico has the right idea on this one... it sounds the most plausible to me.

 

- He seems to have low self esteem in certain respects (he takes everything his parents throw at him, allows them to have an iron grip on him without much protest).

- He has also told me in past conversations about his ability to easily cut things out of his mind that bother or annoy him. ...and I've seen him do it.

- I was withdrawing a little because of him withdrawing, and it did feel like a downward spiral until now.

 

So when he feels better I'll try, once more, to get a talk with him.

[SuperFantastico]

Can you do me a favor sweety. This thing thats going on with you and him reminds me sorta of my old situation. Instead of letting him do all sorts of nice things for you, i think it would probably mean alot to him if maybe you bought some chicken soup and went to his house to give it to him. Maybe then you will have a chance to talk, maybe not. But those little things like that mean alot.

 

For me I was always the one doing everthing for this girl, and she never really did anything nice for me. If she had done stuff like this, I might have gotten the courage to act on my feelings. When someone treats you like you matter to them, you start to feel like you are a somebody.

 

This guy you like, really seems like he gets the **** end of the stick for most his life. I think, if you really do love him, you should show him how much he matters to you. Not with subtle girl ways of crossing the legs and all that, because as a guy who had no self esteem with women, i can say for a fact these signals will be lost. But something tangeble, like kind acts and such will go a LONG way to helping him love him self and in turn love you.

 

Yesh, i sound like some cheesy self help book or something. But seriously, actions not signs are the way to go if you want him. I think if you two can start of right, you can have a really good relationship based on mutual(not the crappy one sided) love.

 

Just my two cents.

[Kisu]

I dunno what it is, maybe I'm the one who's too immature to have a 'relationship'...

 

I'm bawling my eyes out at the moment, I feel so torn and hurt. It's hard to see what I'm typing through my tears...

 

The day after I last posted here, things were looking up, way up. Out of the blue he just opened his arms and hugged me, the next day, same thing (I hugged him back so hard we almost fell over), it was awesome. We started messaging eachother again online, longer conversations, and we were looking for a new game to play together online.

 

He's been feeling much better in regards to being sick, and we were going to do something this Saturday.

 

We chatted online pretty much all day today, he was helping me fix something on my computer for a while, then when that was done it decended into silly spamming competitions, joking about things, and drawing pictures to eachother. It was great. I felt on top of the world. This was the guy I loved so much.

 

...then I found some stuff on my computer that I hadn't seen in a while, and I wanted to show him. Just some personal things I was proud of -- maybe he'd find them interesting or funny or something... He said outright he wasn't interested in seeing them. Wha...? Ok fine... (count blow #1)

 

Then I asked him what we were doing tomorrow. He just said "I dunno" in stark contrast to his asking all week, offering to give me a lift to his place. I pressed a little, and got a time, but it was never really solid, because he started acting silly again, spamming the chat. I told him he could come over to my place instead, maybe have lunch and go to his place later, but he never replied to that. (blow #2)

 

Then when I wasn't replying to his sillyness, he said he was going to go watch TV and would be on later (really late), I said I would be in bed at that time, and he basically called me a wuss (he used a word from our own lingo). (blow #3)

 

I told him it was insensitive to say that. He defended himself by saying "no I just like to say that". I told him it wasn't very nice, but he just made a face like this -> , waited a minute or two, then when I didn't reply (I had started crying at this point) went offline. (blow #4)

 

(blow #5) Even though I referred twice that it was my birthday (and he knew pretty much all week), he never acknowledged it... I think that hurt the most, since this is my first birthday alone (ie. no family around).

 

I just feel crushed. He never replied to my letter either. I think it's time to follow the advice of some other posters and just back of entirely. This hurts too much. I was looking forward to tomorrow, but now I don't think I should go at all. He can be so sweet, but then all of a sudden he gets so passive / uncaring and it stings like a nettle. My heart doesn't understand what's going on, and my head is confused now too. Wost birthday ever...

[cygny]

hey, happy birthday kisu!

 

sorry this happened today. i'd feel upset if i were you too.

 

how old are you guys anyway? are you american or different cultures?

[Kisu]

Thanks Cygny...

 

 

We're both Canadian, same cultures. I'm 19 today, he's 18 in a few months.

[cygny]

ok

 

well one thing i know is that alot of guys can't handle too much intimacy or togetherness and that after a while, they just 'fill up' and shut down, kinda like having a small stomach and eating a big meal. so if you guys were online all day, that might explain part of it.

 

i can't think of why he wouldn't acknowledge your birthday unless he just isn't confident and doesn't know how. it might be the intimacy issue again, which you've been dealing with all along here. he does seem particularly closed off in that regard and if you keep hanging on to this relationship, i bet you are going to have to keep doing alot of 'work' to bring him out of his shell.

 

not sure if it's worth it to you, ya know?

[SuperFantastico]

Alright kisu, i will chime in again if you dont mind. This again from my own experience. Now the problem with immature guys(ones who have had a screwed up life and are WAY less mature than they should be) is that they are kinda flaky and dont know how to act or if they say something that might inadvertantly be offensive(like the no i dont wanna see your pictures or the birthday thing.

 

This is more of a warning to you than defending of him. I know you like him, but like i was at his age, he is TOO immature to be in a relationship. As much as i'd like to see this work, i now kinda get why the girl i liked was aprehensive to like me back. This flakyness will probably just end up with you in pain.

 

I think you should give him an ultimatum and if he dosnt respond then end it there. Better to take the pain now, then have it amplified in the future.

 

On a side note, im availible ......................... j/k

[Mary3]

I think you should put on a red sexy lacy teddy and slap him around with a feather boa until he submits to you.

[Kisu]

The last few days have been a little eye opening for me… a lot of it is just things I’ve learned about myself, as I’ve been sort of living on my own for a few days now, which is a first for me…

 

 

As for what happened…

 

Yesterday I had lots of work do around the house (the rest of my family is away right now so I have to keep things running myself) so I wasn’t thinking about him and the issues a lot until the afternoon. I had the Olympics playing on one computer and was just working online with my own. He was online and immediately started talking (asked if I was watching Olympics too, etc…); we were just basically doing our own thing but making comments to each other about the skiing that was on TV. Everything seemed back to normal again – as if a reset button was pushed.

 

Then he started asking if I wanted to come over like we had planned. Then when the time came he asked if it was okay to come pick me up. From this point on I was impressed with pretty much he said or did.

 

We did some random stuff at his place for a while, nothing physically intimate, just hanging out alone and having fun.

 

He opened up a bit at one point and I learned some more disturbing things about his parents. I’ll keep it short and just say that they’re as old fashioned as my grandparents were, try to dominate him completely, don’t trust him at all, yet randomly leave him for weeks alone to go on vacation without him. Yikes…

In the past I had talked to his mother one-on-one, over lunch, and she seemed like such a nice outgoing person. His dad seemed completely normal (though quiet and reserved like him) when I met him once as well. However I believe what he says is true, and now I’ve seen the evidence all over his house.

 

A good mutual friend of ours came over for a few hours, we hung out some more, my guy* taught us how to do a few things on the computer, then after dinner our friend went home.

(*I say ‘my guy’ not in a possessive way, just to differentiate in a way that I don’t have to post names.)

 

Him and I stayed up very early into the morning, watching a marathon of a show we both like on the couch together, I think laughing and talking more than we were actually watching. Then we went on his computer for a bit; quietly talking, looking at pictures and remembering some things we did together.

 

When that was over it got really quiet (I was exhausted). I said I was tried, he agreed, and then asked if I wanted a lift home.

Driving home he joked about the creepiness of late night driving – sure enough there was some weird things that I’d never seen in my town during daylight. When we got to my house he was looking a little withdrawn. I thanked him sincerely, reached over and gave him a hug, he hugged me back (tightly! ). When I pulled back I saw him smirk as he looked away, and that was it.

 

I feel better after yesterday – I think we really needed that.

[Kisu]

I was reading some old posts on this forum about self-value, how to see red flags in guys, stuff like that, and well… I followed some advice and wrote down the things I want out of a relationship, then I tried to see where he matches up or doesn’t. Doing this I remembered the first things that made me like him so much, before I wanted to be more intimate with him. A lot of those things he showed me yesterday. Things that make me proud and happy to be with him.

 

I’ve always thought that you can tell a lot about what a person is really like by their living space, the way they talk and treat strangers, children, and animals… stuff like that.

Overall I think he has the qualities I look for, but just can’t handle the level of intimacy that I want right now. As long as we’re making a little progress I’m going to force myself to slow down and deal with what he’s comfortable with, without forgetting my own needs (ie. I realize I’m probably going to initiate most of it). Whether that will change or not as we get more comfortable with each other has yet to be seen…

If it was the reverse situation – if he wanted more intimacy than I was comfortable with… you see where I’m going?

 

I look at grown males in my own family (and some outside) and I think of the few ones that are still immature – messing with their money, messing with different women, etc…

Then I look at my guy, how mature he is for his age in different respects (driving habits, personal responsibilities like cleanliness and work, sociability with the general public, etc…), and the intimacy problem seems smaller. Still very significant, but smaller. I’ve seen little steps in the right direction, some big withdrawals, but the intimacy thing seems to get a little better each time he comes around.

 

I think that if his core values had changed or were different I’d already be gone and wouldn’t have posted so much here.

 

So the answer is yes, I do think he’s worth staying around for.

 

As for my own hurting, I think now I know a big part is that I expect way too much from him for his age / disposition (silly how when you’re this young one year makes such a difference). Would it be any different had I met him a few years from now? I don’t know. I also see that the last two times I felt hurt, it was very intense but also very short, like a bad mood swing. No idea what that signals.

 

 

(I never mind you chiming in SF )