Why did Jesus die for our sins?

[HotCaliGirl]

I frequently hear that Jesus died for our sins and it is used as an excuse for people to sin like there's no tomorrow, because Jesus alrady paid the price for all the sins we did and will commit.

 

That's why murderers and molesters will all still be able to go to heaven, as long as they thank jesus for dying for our sins and believing in him. Almost everyone in jail reads the bible, so pretty much everyone is basically going to heaven.

 

Can someone please explain what this is all about? It just doesn't make sense to me!

[Admiral Thrawn]

I frequently hear that Jesus died for our sins and it is used as an excuse for people to sin like there's no tomorrow, because Jesus alrady paid the price for all the sins we did and will commit.

 

That is not a sound theological premise. Paul wrote 'God forbid!' when that topic was brought up in scripture in the book of Romans. Christians will lose their salvation if they choose to yield into sin and unrighteousness, despite their profession.

 

However, chances are, that such a person you mentioned was never saved in the first place, or had a very weak conversion experience. Mental knowledge about Jesus death and ressurection for our sins and eternal life is not enough, but it actually has to be appropriated by faith - you have to actually be saved - there has to be a change in your heart.

 

Sure, a born-again Christian may sin, but you are not going to feel comfortable doing it anymore. The spiritual nature will kick in sooner or later to but a check on that. True happiness and joy ultimately come by submitting to the full will of God and certainly not by sinning.

 

That's why murderers and molesters will all still be able to go to heaven, as long as they thank jesus for dying for our sins and believing in him. Almost everyone in jail reads the bible, so pretty much everyone is basically going to heaven.

 

Of course. A murder and a molester are all humans as you are, and in fact, in God's eyes, everyone is a sinner. What the murder and molester did is wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that they are still human beings that Jesus died for.

 

I certainly hope everybody who is in jail reads the Bible, believes it, receives Jesus and are saved, because God's love knows no bounds. God wills it. God wills everyone to be saved. The greater the sin, the greater the grace, since grace is greater than sin, no sin can outweight grace (except Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit).

 

So, theologically, only Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit can be worst than a murder and a molester, because that is the only sin that can not be forgiven.

[7on]

I can say I'm sorry for lying to you but if I do it over and over again it loses it's meaning. If I lied to you once and am sincerely sorry then it is forgiven.

 

Same way with the Jesus dying for us. If someone lacks a sincere heart for doing what they feel is bad then that person is no better than the repeated lier in my example. They will not be forgiven (as I believe). However if the person sincerely sees the wrong in his ways and is not doing it for guilt or for his own sake then he will be forgiven.

 

That's how I see it. And not everybody gets into heaven.

Reading the Bible doesn't make you go to heaven. I believe a lot of criminals are putting on a "good show" in their last stint on earth (if they're on death row) so we don't know if they are in fact going to heaven. Maybe doing what they can in order to get themselves out of dying (prolly their only chance at escaping the chair as slim as it may be)

[HotCaliGirl]

Of course. A murder and a molester are all humans as you are, and in fact, in God's eyes, everyone is a sinner.

NO they're not and I will never consider a murderer and molester as humans like me. I might as well be locked up too then? Wow, this is crazy sh**.

 

What the murder and molester did is wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that they are still human beings that Jesus died for.

 

I certainly hope everybody who is in jail reads the Bible, believes it, receives Jesus and are saved, because God's love knows no bounds. God wills it. God wills everyone to be saved. The greater the sin, the greater the grace, since grace is greater than sin, no sin can outweight grace (except Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit).

 

So, theologically, only Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit can be worst than a murder and a molester, because that is the only sin that can not be forgiven.

Comparing and equating murderers and molesters to me? Your entire post re-inforces my tendency to get as far away from religion as possible! Whenever I am slightly confused, I will randomly read any one of your religious posts to remind myself how foolish and non-sensical religion is.

[Admiral Thrawn]

NO they're not and I will never consider a murderer and molester as humans like me. I might as well be locked up too then? Wow, this is crazy sh**.

 

Let he or she who is without sin, cast the first stone.

 

Comparing and equating murderers and molesters to me? Your entire post re-inforces my tendency to get as far away from religion as possible! Whenever I am slightly confused, I will randomly read any one of your religious posts to remind myself how foolish and non-sensical religion is.

 

As Jesus said to the religious people in his day - the harlots and the drunkards go into heaven before they do. Why? The Pharisees felt they were too good to accept Jesus.

 

In another parable, Jesus compared two people. One Pharisee who said "I thank you Lord that I am not as bad as the other guy", and another person who cried "God be merciful to me a sinner". The latter person is the one who came out justified.

 

So, if you think that you are better than a murder or molester, who has just accepted Jesus as their saviour, and you think you are better than them, and dont need Jesus, then guess who would be going to heaven and who wouldn't? Everyone, needs to receive Jesus in order to be justified, unfortunately, most who do not avail themselves to receive Jesus Christ feel they are too good to accept Him, and that is their own downfall.

[Admiral Thrawn]

I can say I'm sorry for lying to you but if I do it over and over again it loses it's meaning. If I lied to you once and am sincerely sorry then it is forgiven.

 

But Jesus teaches to forgive people over and over an indefinate amount of times. How you are forgiven by God is also a function of how often you forgive people in your lives who wrong you. So, I assume if you sin against God, people are going to sin against you too because what goes around comes around.

 

Same way with the Jesus dying for us. If someone lacks a sincere heart for doing what they feel is bad then that person is no better than the repeated lier in my example. They will not be forgiven (as I believe). However if the person sincerely sees the wrong in his ways and is not doing it for guilt or for his own sake then he will be forgiven.

 

But what if he is struggling with sin? God is supposed to help this person not to sin through intervention?

 

That's how I see it. And not everybody gets into heaven.

Reading the Bible doesn't make you go to heaven. I believe a lot of criminals are putting on a "good show" in their last stint on earth (if they're on death row) so we don't know if they are in fact going to heaven. Maybe doing what they can in order to get themselves out of dying (prolly their only chance at escaping the chair as slim as it may be)

 

And some criminals are also sincere, who knows. The point is everyone deserves to go to hell, criminal or not. Some of the worst criminals hold political office and wear suits and ties and are CEO's right? Some of the worst criminals are generals of armies and soldiers who rape and pillage for their country.

 

Some of the worst criminals are people are prominant, well to do citizens, who go over to Thialand and start paying sex tours to go after yonng boys and girls, and go back home.

 

What I am saying is, lots of criminals aren't behind bars - and we have a double-standard in society, but that goes beyond the scope of this discussion. Many criminals are Black, and wrongfully convicted by a racist prosecution, while the white guy gets off the hook.

 

Now, assuming we are talking about an ideal situation here, the purpose of jail, as it should be, is so that people can understand their actions and have an opportunity to be contrite about it and repent and turn back to God. Also, they are a danger and risk to society so they should be locked up.

 

Other than that, I hold firm the belief that nobody is less human than anyone else, and the minute people start thinking in that grain of thought - it is not scriptural. Even the best person is a sinner in the eyes of God, unless he has received Jesus Christ.

 

There is no greater sin than to reject the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

[HotCaliGirl]

So, if you think that you are better than a murder or molester, who has just accepted Jesus as their saviour, and you think you are better than them, and dont need Jesus, then guess who would be going to heaven and who wouldn't? Everyone, needs to receive Jesus in order to be justified, unfortunately, most who do not avail themselves to receive Jesus Christ feel they are too good to accept Him, and that is their own downfall.

There's no such thing as hell or heaven, but I'd rather burn in hell than spend eternity in "heaven" with murderers and molesters who you claim are your equals!!!

[cal gal]

Ok just addressing the initail question... according to my beliefs

 

God sacrificed his only son to save our sins, and to give us the opportunity for everlasting life. What we choose to do with that opportunity is up to each person. We will be held accountable - later....

IMHO

[Admiral Thrawn]

There's no such thing as hell or heaven, but I'd rather burn in hell than spend eternity in "heaven" with murderers and molesters who you claim are your equals!!!

 

When someone has received Jesus Christ, they are a new creature, and are forgiven for their sins. You can also have your sins forgiven too.

[HotCaliGirl]

When someone has received Jesus Christ, they are a new creature, and are forgiven for their sins. You can also have your sins forgiven too.

It's more logical for the victim of sinners to forgive than you or any religion...For a murderer, he cannot be forogiven because he has taken away the life of his victim. As for a molester, a robber, an abuser and so forth, it is up to their victims to forgive them, otherwise it makes no sense to sin like a heathen then have an imaginary figure forgive you just so you could be at peace with yourself! That's so wrong but whatever makes you feel better...if someone kills me, I don't want them to see the light of day, let alone live happily ever after in heaven just because after the fact they change their mind about it. What's done is done and any other creative way to get around it is for the weak to make them think in their heads they have reversed their crimes.

[HotCaliGirl]

Ok just addressing the initail question... according to my beliefs

 

God sacrificed his only son to save our sins, and to give us the opportunity for everlasting life. What we choose to do with that opportunity is up to each person. We will be held accountable - later....

IMHO

So do you also beleiver that a mass murderer and everyone as long as they're religious they can do whatever they want and all will be forgiven that they are equal to you as a person??

[cal gal]

It's more logical for the victim of sinners to forgive than you or any religion...For a murderer, he cannot be forogiven because he has taken away the life of his victim. As for a molester, a robber, an abuser and so forth, it is up to their victims to forgive them, otherwise it makes no sense to sin like a heathen then have an imaginary figure forgive you just so you could be at peace with yourself! That's so wrong but whatever makes you feel better...if someone kills me, I don't want them to see the light of day, let alone live happily ever after in heaven just because after the fact they change their mind about it. What's done is done and any other creative way to get around it is for the weak to make them think in their heads they have reversed their crimes.

 

Are you for real? And people actually have this lack of direction in their belief system? I'm not sure anyone can even get started with you honey, wish I knew where to begin!

[HotCaliGirl]

Are you for real? And people actually have this lack of direction in their belief system? I'm not sure anyone can even get started with you honey, wish I knew where to begin!

Let's agree to disagree civally and with respect. Keep in mind that just as much as you are saying the above comments about me, I too am thinking along the same line towards you, but at least am making an effort to understand how you can believe what you believe and how you find it to be rational so no "I'm not sure anyone can even get started with you honey" type comments please. Where I'm coming from, it makes no sense that you consider a murderer to be your equal just as long as he believes in Jesus, and in the same breath you pitty me but I am trying to understand that way of thinking, no name calling!!! I'm trying to understand why it makes sense to you that Jesus would die just to give a free pass to all future sinners as long as they believed in him. Seriously it makes me think about it enough to post here and have a discussion without putting down other people for what they believe in, just trying to understand the logic.

[cal gal]

I'm not name calling., so don't get me wrong. I guess I feel that the person who does the bad deeds has to live with their own conscience and then answer and ask to forgiven in the end.

 

It is NOT my place to judge them one way or another.

 

I just try to be a loving and descent person each day.

 

PS. I'm trying to start somewhere, but it's hard when I, myself don't think about it that much and just take it as part of my own being. Wasn't trying to be mean. Sorry...

[HotCaliGirl]

Ok, thanks cal gal for clearing the air. I know this is an emotional topic, I am just trying to understand where people are coming from, but I agree with you as far as it being easier the less you question...as soon as you do it is hard to find the answers, so thanks for sharing your views...

[lindya]

NO they're not and I will never consider a murderer and molester as humans like me. I might as well be locked up too then? Wow, this is crazy sh**.

 

Admiral Thrawn's comments clarify why there's a tendency for all sorts of oddities to turn to religion. Not only does religion purport to accept all comers...including the socially ostracised; it will actually reassure them that despite murdering, raping, molesting a child...whatever horrors it might be that they've inflicted on fellow humans....despite all that, their conversion to the faith will render them morally superior to non-believers.

 

It's interesting to observe the perceptions and views of people who work in the caring professions. Take the example of a secure unit for delinquent adolescents - or even your average school in a rough neighbourhood. Watch how the staff there relate to the children, and note how the most troublesome, disruptive children get the most attention. Partly negative attention, of course, but you also have an element of the more caring and philanthropic staff members competing to be the one who "gets through to the troubled young person". The staff member who becomes that pupil's trusted favourite. Those can be strange, strange environments.

 

I'd guess that many of the adults who are keenest to "reach out" to the most badly behaved children (whilst neglecting to attend to the needs of the quieter, less troublesome - but possibly more troubled - children) aren't doing so for purely altruistic reasons. Perhaps from their perspective, the child is acting out aggressive behaviour that they would secretly like to indulge in...but are too inhibited/scared/passive aggressive to involve themselves in. By nurturing a bond with these troublesome children, they can project their own "Mr Hyde" traits...and simultaneously demonstrate how altruistic, accepting and generally wondrous they are.

 

When I hear about deeply religious individuals welcoming to their bosoms those who have committed atrocities against their fellow humans, I can't help attributing similar reasoning. My sympathies go out to those who have strong religious convictions, but who also have an interest in psychology. That combination must cause some major internal conflicts.

[ReluctantRomeo]

Interesting discussion! Thanks for starting this, HotCali.

 

 

Admiral Thrawn's comments clarify why there's a tendency for all sorts of oddities to turn to religion.

 

Jesus himself said "it's the sick that need a doctor". I guess the acid test is whether, having attracted people with problems, a religion is able to change them for the better. On a sample of one, I like to think that my religion is doing this

 

 

despite all that, their conversion to the faith will render them morally superior to non-believers.

 

In the best case scenario it doesn't - a grace-based religion can make someone very grateful to be forgiven and keen to behave differently in future. Again, to quote Jesus' words to the woman they wanted to stone for adultery: "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more".

 

Sadly, in the worst case scenario it often does translate into entitlement to behave as one pleases or a feeling of moral superiority. Feel free to smack me Lindy, if it looks like I'm going that way...

 

 

By nurturing a bond with these troublesome children, they can project their own "Mr Hyde" traits...and simultaneously demonstrate how altruistic, accepting and generally wondrous they are.

 

Rings scarily true.

[lindya]

Feel free to smack me Lindy, if it looks like I'm going that way...

 

So that was your real motive in responding. Very well then, I shall look out an appropriate outfit...

 

I agree that under sensible and moderate management, religion can assist a lot of people greatly - giving them back some hope (and we all need a bit of that in our lives). Inevitably, however, it also attracts domineering types who see religion as a means to control and cow others - rather than as a tool to promote peace and harmony.

 

Really, religion provides the ultimate debating ground for guardians-v-idealists. Perhaps I should also become involved in my local church!

[witabix]

Ok a hypothetical situation....

 

A man kills me.

 

I will, by the standards I see here, go to hell.

 

I have commited the sin that AT said was unforgivable. Blaphemy of the Holy Spirit.

 

I have never murdered, raped, abused etc.

 

But I go to hell.

 

The killer goes to prison.

 

Repents and is born again into the light of Jesus Christ.

 

He dies and goes to heaven.

 

Fair?

[ReluctantRomeo]

I frequently hear that Jesus died for our sins and it is used as an excuse for people to sin like there's no tomorrow

 

Can someone please explain what this is all about? It just doesn't make sense to me!

 

Fwiw, here's my take on this subject.

 

Each generation tries to remake God in their image. Or how we wish he would be. In our generation, the tendency is to want God to be lax and indulgent. A safe, unchallenging and - speaking frankly - boring being who is an object of love, albeit wishywashy and sentimental, but not respect.

 

In any healthy relationship, there needs to be both love and respect - you can't do without either. God is love, but I think it is a serious mistake to extrapolate from this to the belief that God will take any kind of crap.

[HotCaliGirl]

Each generation tries to remake God in their image. Or how we wish he would be. In our generation, the tendency is to want God to be lax and indulgent....

Oooh...I like your take on it RR, very interesting. I doubt people in past generations were as lax as today. I think they punished murderers, killed them or removed them from society and didn't pat them on the back, hand them a bible and say it's ok, you're forgiven while their victim was seen as a lesser person should they not have the faith the sinners and wrong-doers had....maybe without as much freedom of speach people kept their mouths shut and didn't question their faith on top of it, which is a healthy thing to do so that you can come to believe on your own terms should you decide to.

[ReluctantRomeo]

So that was your real motive in responding. Very well then, I shall look out an appropriate outfit...

 

 

Inevitably, however, it also attracts domineering types who see religion as a means to control and cow others - rather than as a tool to promote peace and harmony.

 

Religion brings out the best and the worst in people. Jesus continually warned his followers not to end up like the religious authorities of the day. He even coined the term hypocrite to describe their behaviour. This teaching is as fresh and relevant as the day he preached it

 

 

Really, religion provides the ultimate debating ground for guardians-v-idealists. Perhaps I should also become involved in my local church!

 

Come and join in with the fun here

[newbby]

i think the bible can be dangerously misinterpreted, like a law that has become so rigid that one can find loopholes in it. people can change, through god and enlightenment, and so they should be able to, but using the words of the bible to their advantage without doing the real work inside that would have to be done in order to change is so easy to do, because it seems that too many people are focused on the words themselves.

[a4a]

well back in the olden days of yore

those that actually professed to believe and follow the teachings of this bible also sent innocent people to their deaths...... like those terrible witches.

So of course as long as they say they believed.. being a murderer was okey dokey.

 

I see it still today, Robertson is a good one for that! I think he would be on a witch hunt in modern times if he indeed could get away with it. Maybe Hinn could heal Robertson? Funny why don't they heal each other?

 

So of course Heaven will be filled with murderers, rapist, molesting monsters, and others who believed and worked as the hand of this god.

 

As for the Catholic religion....... abortion was ok, then a pope changed that, now limbo is gone, you can just rewrite and reset the rules. Pretty cool!

 

back to regular scheduled program.

 

a4a

[EnigmaXOXO]

You know CaliGirl, I've given quite a bit of thought to this myself.

 

I could not, in my good conscious, live with the notion that someone stood in as my personal 'whipping boy' and received even one lash or nail for a sin I had committed. It would make me no better than the wicked crowd who tortured, crucified, and murdered this poor man if I allowed someone else to martyr themselves and suffer my punishment just so that I could receive a free golden ticket to enter those pearly gates.

 

Although I've done nothing in this life that I would ever be ashamed of being judged for, it seems that some people have been convinced that a good life filled with good works doesn't count for much on this so-called "judgment day." Nor do the deeds of evil, wretched people so long as they accept Christ as their personal whipping boy (aka: Savior).

 

While the cowardly, selfish man who lived a wretched life may have no problem facing the 'Big Judge' and evading his due punishment by scapegoating the guy in the bloody crown of thorns, I would feel ashamed and embarrassed to do the same. I can just see it now…

 

"Ah, you know Big G … I didn't honor the Sabbath and go to church on Sundays, but your son already took the beating for me and three of those marks on his back have my name on them. Therefore, my sentence should be waived and I should be allowed to join the rest of the hypocrites, murders, thieves and adulterers up at that big Boom Boom Room in the sky."

 

You know, come to think of it, I don't think I could stomach spending an eternity around these kinds of people. Considering the guest list, it would seem more like Hell than Heaven to me. I'm almost hoping there's a smidgen of truth to this new "Rapture" craze that so many folks seem to be buying into lately, and these people get zapped off the planet.

 

Perhaps then, the meek can finally inherit the earth as promised.