Why did Jesus die for our sins?

[Admiral Thrawn]

Why don't you respect others beliefs instead of stubbornly beleiving that anything other than what you believe in is "their own version" and not the "true version," like you have direct communication with god...why not be open-minded and realistic, and believe what you believe in, with the understanding that you may be 100% wrong, just like you think otehrs are 100% wrong?

 

The object of my faith has already proven Himself many times over to me and I'm settled - and to many, many other people as well. The Bible is true, has no contradictions, and is self-explanatory.

 

The easy way out? The easy way out is to blindly believe and not question. I wish I wasn't so curious and skeptical, then there would be no struggle, just a comforting belief. Why do you talk down to others who disagree with you instead of respecting where they come from? I am here to discuss, not say this or that person is looking for an easy way out. That's disrespectful and not true. Whether or not I need a savior has nothing to do with if I am "that bad" or not, but what I believe and don't believe in. So far, I don't believe in a savior who is evil, the one who burns people and tortures them for egotistical reasons. I'd rather make one up in my head who is understanding and loving, and if he sees I struggle to believe, he would talk to me after I die to show me he really exists and not order me to burn like chopped wood. I might be missing some screws because I don't see that as a loving and forgiving act.

 

The fact that you are still alive and able to find out the truth shows that God loves you. The premise of this whole thread, your authorship, was to ask a question about "why Jesus died on the cross", and that was answered "for you HotCaliGirl, because He loves you.". So, I dont see what the whole point is, you either believe that, or you dont - but it still doesn't change the fact that Jesus died for your sin, and that is what the Bible says too.

 

So, if you think that Jesus just died for the sins of criminals, that is a total and absolute lie, He died for everyone's sin, including yours. Nobody is excluded from the grace of God.

 

 

Yet they are the ones who have the most faith, going in and out of prison with their bibles and they are the favored ones to go to heaven, while according to you I am going to burn in hell...I still don't find the logic behind it.

 

Why are you saying they have the most faith? Why does it bother you that people have faith? You can have faith too.

[HotCaliGirl]

So, if you think that Jesus just died for the sins of criminals, that is a total and absolute lie, He died for everyone's sin, including yours. Nobody is excluded from the grace of God.

I'm not saying that, let's say he died for everyone's sin, nobody excluded...but in the end he favors one set of people over another and punishes those who naturally question him, instead of being understanding towards them. Not everyone is as easily convinced as you, so instead of working with them, he automatically sends them to hell.

Why are you saying they have the most faith? Why does it bother you that people have faith? You can have faith too.

I'm not saying they have the most faith. Without generalizing, I will limit the comparison with myself. In comparison to me, they have more faith, so basically i will burn in hell - being a law abiding person, while they will be having a party in heaven, after killing and torturing innocent people, just because they still believe in jesus, so I don't know if you are understanding what I am questioning, as far as why he died to save those people, yet is so not patient and understanding with those who struggle to have faith in him, he just turns his back and as soon as they die he burns them in hell.

[garner]

I'm not saying they have the most faith. Without generalizing, I will limit the comparison with myself. In comparison to me, they have more faith, so basically i will burn in hell - being a law abiding person, while they will be having a party in heaven, after killing and torturing innocent people, just because they still believe in jesus, so I don't know if you are understanding what I am questioning, as far as why he died to save those people, yet is so not patient and understanding with those who struggle to have faith in him, he just turns his back and as soon as they die he burns them in hell.

 

Yet they are the ones who have the most faith, going in and out of prison with their bibles and they are the favored ones to go to heaven, while according to you I am going to burn in hell...I still don't find the logic behind it.

 

Do you think those criminals and murderers truly repent for their sins, or is knowledge of the badness of their actions and fear of the consequences what drove them to piety?

 

Luke 20:47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

 

Lots of people sort of believe in heaven and hell, and I don't think you would be posting like this if you semi-believe in the idea of these places in the afterlife. Imagine if you had done something really wicked like murdering a child, and you had a sort of belief that God might one day punish you for doing that. The "sort of belief" could start to drive you mad with worry, and the more worried you got, the more powerful that belief would get. You might become very religious in an attempt to get right with God. You might fake remorse for your actions, not because you felt sorry in your heart for the people you'd hurt, but because you were terrified of the punishment you might be receiving in the afterlife.

 

Fear is often the greatest motivator of all, so it makes sense that those who have sinned most will try harder than anyone else to try to get right with God. The question is whether fear for their own soul, instead of sorrow for the people they hurt, is enough atonement in God's eyes. The quote from Luke says that those people who sin then make a false show of remorse in an attempt to win God's mercy will be subjected to the severest punishment.

[HotCaliGirl]

garner, so those of us who do not live in the fear that murderers live in, because we can live with ourselves, being law-abiding kind people, it's just we don't have the faith so God ends up burning us, but the person who murderers and molests, a fear is ignited in them so they start to repent and worship and god loves them and takes them up to heaven....Maybe the church should advocate sinning if that's what it takes to ignite fear, which will then ignite faith in some people?

[Admiral Thrawn]

I'm not saying that, let's say he died for everyone's sin, nobody excluded...but in the end he favors one set of people over another and punishes those who naturally question him, instead of being understanding towards them. Not everyone is as easily convinced as you, so instead of working with them, he automatically sends them to hell.

 

But are you not naturally questioning things right now? You are not 'automatically in hell' now, you are here, asking natural questions. That is unfounded.

 

I'm not saying they have the most faith. Without generalizing, I will limit the comparison with myself. In comparison to me, they have more faith, so basically i will burn in hell - being a law abiding person, while they will be having a party in heaven, after killing and torturing innocent people, just because they still believe in jesus, so I don't know if you are understanding what I am questioning, as far as why he died to save those people, yet is so not patient and understanding with those who struggle to have faith in him, he just turns his back and as soon as they die he burns them in hell.

 

The reality is you are not in hell now, so such statements are unfounded. He is not turning his back on you, in fact, He is waiting patiently for you to come to the realisation of what has been missing for all your life. His will is for you to live eternally and be saved. That is the God of the Bible. So, in your particular case, you can even pray to God and ask Him questions directly if you so choose, why not?

 

My conversion or interest in the things of God was very gradual - so take your time to try to understand the things of God and question things.

[garner]

garner, so those of us who do not live in the fear that murderers live in, because we can live with ourselves, being law-abiding kind people, it's just we don't have the faith so God ends up burning us, but the person who murderers and molests, a fear is ignited in them so they start to repent and worship and god loves them and takes them up to heaven....Maybe the church should advocate sinning if that's what it takes to ignite fear, which will then ignite faith in some people?

 

Fear is not the same as faith. Faith can be quiet and simple, but fear shouts loudly. The quote from Luke tells you that the more a sinner makes false and showy prayers to win God's approval, the more that sinner will be punished.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Luke 20:47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

 

Lots of people sort of believe in heaven and hell, and I don't think you would be posting like this if you semi-believe in the idea of these places in the afterlife. Imagine if you had done something really wicked like murdering a child, and you had a sort of belief that God might one day punish you for doing that. The "sort of belief" could start to drive you mad with worry, and the more worried you got, the more powerful that belief would get. You might become very religious in an attempt to get right with God. You might fake remorse for your actions, not because you felt sorry in your heart for the people you'd hurt, but because you were terrified of the punishment you might be receiving in the afterlife.

 

Fear is often the greatest motivator of all, so it makes sense that those who have sinned most will try harder than anyone else to try to get right with God. The question is whether fear for their own soul, instead of sorrow for the people they hurt, is enough atonement in God's eyes. The quote from Luke says that those people who sin then make a false show of remorse in an attempt to win God's mercy will be subjected to the severest punishment.

 

Right, that is 'religion' though and works. Jesus died for every single human being on this planet, and everyone could be saved if they accept Jesus Christ. From the best of us to the worst of us. This is not a work-your-way of salvation, but a concept of grace, which requires no merit on the part of the believer or recepient of the gift of salvation, other than repentence and faith.

[HotCaliGirl]

But I don't find logic in praying to a God who should I not have faith in him, he will burn me. I am not going to try to win him over when I disagree with his way of thinking. If I die tonight, regardless of all the good I have done, he is in your belief going to burn me, so I don't like that and I don't want to associate with that type of person who is that cruel. IF I was god and someone didn't believe in me, which is natural considering there is such a thing as questioning and skepticism, I could NEVER in my heart order them to burn or torture. Instead, I would sit them down, have a chat, they would of course them believe in me seeing I exist, and send them to heaven! That is loving, instead of coming to earth as Jesus, suffering like "poor me" so that murderers and sinners can be forgiven for all eternity, yet those who are good people but don't believe in me, like I am some ego maniac who demands belief, I will not work with them, but will burn them. I can never and never want to worship such a being, I hate it, it is filled with hate and I am asking if I understand this correctly cuz i find it to be so evil.

[garner]

But I don't find logic in praying to a God who should I not have faith in him, he will burn me. I am not going to try to win him over when I disagree with his way of thinking. If I die tonight, regardless of all the good I have done, he is in your belief going to burn me, so I don't like that and I don't want to associate with that type of person who is that cruel.

 

You wouldn't be getting so upset if you didn't have any faith at all. You're angry with God, but that isn't the same as not believing in him. Does someone who is capable of murdering another of God's beloved creations truly have God in their heart? If the answer to that is no, then all the prayers and church visits in the world won't save that person.

[Admiral Thrawn]

But I don't find logic in praying to a God who should I not have faith in him, he will burn me.

 

You were talking about having natural questions about faith in God, if that is the case, why not just talk to God about it? After all, isn't that what it is all about?

 

I am not going to try to win him over when I disagree with his way of thinking.

 

Well, it seems to be more in a humble position if you were to kneel and tell God that you do not understand His ways and to help you out.

 

If I die tonight, regardless of all the good I have done, he is in your belief going to burn me, so I don't like that and I don't want to associate with that type of person who is that cruel.

 

It is not about what you have done or haven't done, it is about what Christ has done on the Cross 2000 years ago when He nailed your sins there too with His death. So, you are justified by accepting Jesus. That means, you dont have to impress God with your good-works, you just have to accept the work of Christ on your behalf.

 

So, it boils down to one thing then, you are trusting that your good-works should impress God enough to go to heaven, when in reality, you should be just trusting in Christ rather than your good-works. You are still having faith by trusting in your good-works whether you like it or not. So, have faith in Christ, and not in your good-works, right? Jesus Christ did not sin when He was on the earth, so God sees Jesus Christ instead of HotCaliGirl when you receive Jesus - no sin.

 

IF I was god and someone didn't believe in me, which is natural considering there is such a thing as questioning and skepticism, I could NEVER in my heart order them to burn or torture. Instead, I would sit them down, have a chat, they would of course them believe in me seeing I exist, and send them to heaven! That is loving, instead of coming to earth as Jesus, suffering like "poor me" so that murderers and sinners can be forgiven for all eternity, yet those who are good people but don't believe in me, like I am some ego maniac who demands belief, I will not work with them, but will burn them. I can never and never want to worship such a being, I hate it, it is filled with hate and I am asking if I understand this correctly cuz i find it to be so evil.

 

Again, I do not know if you expect a theological answer or an empathetic answer, but I will say that you need to experience the love of God in your life.

 

The fact is, you are coming from a feeling of entitlement based on works.

 

The first sacrifice in the Bible was in Genesis with the account of Cain and Abel. Cain sacrificed vegetables. Abel sacrificed an animal. God accepted Abel's sacrifice, and rejected Cain's sacrifice. Why? Because only the Lamb of God could atone for sins, not what you feel will make it in your own eyes. Cain got angry and killed his brother over this in jealousy and this was the first murder recorded in the Bible as they were children of Adam and Eve.

 

Cain believed that God should have accepted his vegetable sacrifice. But He did not.

 

So, IF you are trusting in good-works to gain points to go to heaven with God, and you are not as bad as everyone else, then you are making the wrong sacrifice to God as Cain did. Cain was jealous and angry with his brother Abel. Similarly, you seem to be jealous and angry with people who go to heaven through the right sacrifice. Just like Cain did with his brother.

 

It is interesting we are talking about murder, because that story, in Genesis, is the first murder, and it was Cain who did the killing. So the moral of that story is, you can be like Cain, or you can be like Abel. You need to offer the right sacrifice to God - and that sacrifice is faith in Jesus Christ.

 

Instead of Cain just offering the right sacrifice, he killed is brother.

[HotCaliGirl]

But you're dodging the question why does God have it in him to burn people, for whatever reason? I don't know any human who is that evil, let alone to worship an entity who does that to billions of people.

[Admiral Thrawn]

But you're dodging the question why does God have it in him to burn people, for whatever reason? I don't know any human who is that evil, let alone to worship an entity who does that to billions of people.

 

Hell was originally created for the devil and his angels. If people want to stay away from God forever stay with the devil, that is simply their choice.

There are varying degrees of torment depending on the extent of sin, but all sin has to be judged and accounted for, either on your head, or on the cross.

 

Suppose people reject Christ and God, and just want to have nothing to do with God, well, Hell is the logical place to go, because that is where people go who are seperated from God forever, because they dont want to have anything to do with God and want to live life for their own sinful passions.

 

I guess, anywhere where God is not present, sucks doesn't it, eh?

[HotCaliGirl]

Hell was originally created for the devil and his angels. If people want to stay away from God forever stay with the devil, that is simply their choice.

There are varying degrees of torment depending on the extent of sin, but all sin has to be judged and accounted for, either on your head, or on the cross.

 

Suppose people reject Christ and God, and just want to have nothing to do with God, well, Hell is the logical place to go, because that is where people go who are seperated from God forever, because they dont want to have anything to do with God and want to live life for their own sinful passions.

 

I guess, anywhere where God is not present, sucks doesn't it, eh?

Just because someone doesn't believe in Jesus doesn't mean it is to "want to live life for their own sinful passions." They could be one of the kindest people who live a law-abiding peaceful existence, but for innocent reasons are not convinced of his existence. They could totally be wrong, and are not as smart as god if he exists, so why doesn't god talk to them once they die to show them his way instead of automatically sending them to hell? Why did Jesus die for such an evil cause like that? I keep hoping I am misunderstanding the whole thing, but it is indeed that evil...

 

As far as your statement: "anywhere where God is not present, sucks doesn't it, eh" - I am truly finding the opposite to be the case...both on earth and in the afterlife.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Just because someone doesn't believe in Jesus doesn't mean it is to "want to live life for their own sinful passions." They could be one of the kindest people who live a law-abiding peaceful existence, but for innocent reasons are not convinced of his existence.

 

In your eyes perhaps, but you take a human view to things. God sees everything, and the Bible says that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". People who are good, as you are suggesting, will ultimately know and accept Jesus Christ anyway, if they are not aware of it now, as I'm sure you would too when you are ready or at that point in your life.

 

They could totally be wrong, and are not as smart as god if he exists, so why doesn't god talk to them once they die to show them his way instead of automatically sending them to hell? Why did Jesus die for such an evil cause like that? I keep hoping I am misunderstanding the whole thing, but it is indeed that evil...

 

Because He deals with people when they are alive. Without Jesus dying for our sins, everyone, including myself would be hell-bound and without hope and lost in our own sins. The human race would have to stop at Adam and Eve to prevent other people from going to hell, and that would be it. That is not the will of God, as He choose to redeem back the human race, rather than destroy us and create another race from scratch.

[ButtonPusher]

The concept of jesus "dying for our sins" always seemed bizarre from my own point of view. It was one of the aspects of traditional christianity that started a long line of questions that led me elsewhere.

 

People who are good, as you are suggesting, will ultimately know and accept Jesus Christ anyway, if they are not aware of it now, as I'm sure you would too when you are ready or at that point in your life.

I think you're quite wrong here thrawn. There are many people that have never been christians and will never be christians, that are regarded by many people as being "good". In fact some are seen to be spiritually perfect. There is a very famous buddhist monk, who died about 10 years ago, that fits in this category and he was widely acknowledged as being fully enlightened. He didn't reach this level by believing that jesus died for his sins, nor did he believe in any external being.

[HotCaliGirl]

I didn't get any new info aside from confirming how against I am in a religion that is so full of hate towards good hearted people who sincerely have doubts about religion, and compassionate towards the sinner and murderer, i.e. a hate-based religion. AT you don't think on your own, you keep quoting the bible to someone who doubts its value so I have to disregard your answers, it just reaffirms my views of how evil that religion and its god is. I know my values and wouldn't want to associate with someone who likes to burn humans ( a sickening, sickening thought and practice) for not worshipping him (egotistical, self centered and no compassion,,,,sounds more like "god" is the devil)!! As much as I try to understand differently, it appears as though christianity's evil nature is artificially masked as "love" and that is creepy~

 

If I sent annonymoous messages stating "if you don't worship me, I will burn and torture you but even if you murder and molest a thousand people, if you worship me I will reward you...i came to earth to die of bloodshead so that I could forgive all the murderers and molesters for millions of years to come, so do as I say even though you don't know who I am and can't see me" I would end up in jail! Let alone doing that to the whole world and practicing it....yuck....god's burning billions of people whereas Hitler burned a few million. Intentionally burning a human in my humble opinion is rarely justifiable and to worship someone who does it in the billions, combined with torture for eternity, is not compassionate but associated with what I would imagine the devil to be.

[Admiral Thrawn]

I didn't get any new info aside from confirming how against I am in a religion that is so messed up. AT you don't think on your own, you keep quoting the bible to someone who doubts its value so I have to disregard your answers, it just reaffirms my views of how evil that religion and its god is.

 

You asked a question that was theological and you got a theological response. Why did Jesus die for our sins? The answer to that question has to be in the Bible. What were you expecting? So, if you dont believe the Bible, why would you ask a question that requires Biblical authority - or did you just want to make a rant and bash Christianity thread?

 

I am not going to say what you want to hear just to please you or anyone else here, and I'm glad this is rubbing off the wrong way with you, cause if it weren't, then I know I am doing something wrong. .

 

 

I know my values and wouldn't want to associate with someone who likes to burn humans ( a sickening, sickening thought and practice) for not worshipping him (egotistical, self centered and no compassion,,,,sounds more like "god" is the devil)!!

 

That is not the God of the Bible.

 

I got my answers reaffirmed as far as the usefulness of the thread. I didn't get any reasonable answers, christianity's evil nature masked in so-called "love" is creepy~

 

You did not get any answers that you wanted to hear. I stick to the Bible, and am not a crowd pleaser.

 

If you like to go to an Anglican or United church, then you may hear what you like to hear about God, it is funny that quackanne or no other person had responded to your thread or really engaged this debate. You want a water-down impotent message then there are plenty of churches that will tell you what you want to hear.

 

However, if you want the unadulterated uncompromised truth, then you can label me as an Evangelical Fundamentalist if you want because I believe everything that is in the Bible - and if there is a problem with that, then too bad. I dont care what you or anyone else thinks because I dont compromise when it comes down to core Christian doctrine.

 

If I sent annonymoous messages stating "if you don't worship me, I will burn and torture you but even if you murder and molest a thousand people, if you worship me I will reward you...i came to earth to die of bloodshead so that I could forgive all the murderers and molesters for millions of years to come, so do as I say even though you don't know who I am and can't see me" I would end up in jail! Let alone doing that to the whole world and practicing it....yuck....god's burning billions of people whereas Hitler burned a few million. Intentionally burning a human in my humble opinion is rarely justifiable.

 

But you are not God --- it seems that is exactly the problem of this thread. You disagree with how God operates, as defined by the Bible, but you are not God yourself, so stop acting like it. Are you going to disagree that we have nine planets too, and that there are Black Holes in the Universe? Start a thread and say, why did God create Quasars and Black-Holes now - what type of answers are you expecting to get?

[Admiral Thrawn]

I think you're quite wrong here thrawn. There are many people that have never been christians and will never be christians, that are regarded by many people as being "good". In fact some are seen to be spiritually perfect. There is a very famous buddhist monk, who died about 10 years ago, that fits in this category and he was widely acknowledged as being fully enlightened. He didn't reach this level by believing that jesus died for his sins, nor did he believe in any external being.

 

Right, but what you dont see is that someone, somewhere in his life presented the Gospel of Jesus Christ to Him, and his response to that guy or gal did that. Nor, do you see his secret sins. Only God knows what is in this guy's heart.

 

As I said to HotCaliGirl, we only see what our eyes show us, and sometimes that can be very deceptive. The divorce rate is like 50%. That means, about 50% of people who got married were deluded about the person they choose to spend the rest of their wife with at the time they got married.

You think that people can judge the merits of people if they are good or not, if they cant even judge who to marry? Only God has the full picture.

[HotCaliGirl]

You're right that the answers for you are in the bible. I guess the answer I am looking for is more of your opinion and feelings coming from the heart. I'm trying to find out how people can find it ok to worship an entity who died in order to allow sin to be acceptable, and if you are not fine with that, then you burn. I guess what I meant to say is, I want YOUR opinion of what is written in the bible, and not a repition of the bible itself. I don't know if I'm making myself clear... I just don't think it's a sensible solution to burn people who don't mean harm.

[Admiral Thrawn]

You're right that the answers for you are in the bible. I guess the answer I am looking for is more of your opinion and feelings coming from the heart. I'm trying to find out how people can find it ok to worship an entity who died in order to allow sin to be acceptable, and if you are not fine with that, then you burn. I guess what I meant to say is, I want YOUR opinion of what is written in the bible, and not a repition of the bible itself. I don't know if I'm making myself clear... I just don't think it's a sensible solution to burn people who don't mean harm.

 

I never accepted Christ, and neither has my mom with a fear motivation of avoiding hell. My mother wanted a better connection with God, and she found Christ at a Crusade. I wanted to connect with God and sought Jesus Christ on my own. There is no 'let me run from hell' factor in my faith, or my mom's faith. It was the love of God, or feeling that there is an entity, who loves me for who I am, unconditionally, and seeing the right spirit in some Christians, are things that have influenced my decision. God is really love.

 

There is allot of things that I think is unfair and doesn't make sence about the world - and as you can see, I'm in circumstances that sort of suck - that would challenge my faith in God - that are more real than a future heaven and hell right now - so that is all I can say - but I am still going to trust God although I disagree with virtually every circumstance that is currently in my life that I feel like I dont deserve, how is that?

[HotCaliGirl]

That's more like it! that's the type of personal answer I was looking for (especially from you;) - it's more explanatory so I can understand where you are coming from...thnx.

[ButtonPusher]

Right, but what you dont see is that someone, somewhere in his life presented the Gospel of Jesus Christ to Him, and his response to that guy or gal did that. Nor, do you see his secret sins. Only God knows what is in this guy's heart.

I'm not going to get into a religious debate with you admiral, as you seem very set in your beliefs and I have no desire to convert people. But you are deluding yourself about this. Yes this monk did come into contact with christianity, and he wasn't impressed by it. To put it nicely he was amused by the christians that came to thailand attempting to convert all the buddhists. This monk followed the path of the buddha, which has nothing to do with jesus.

 

Buddhism is based on gaining knowledge about our existence, about death, about what happens after death and what leads to the end of the cycle of birth and death. Christianity on the other hand requires blind faith in a supreme being. In this sense, the two religions are polar opposites.

 

As for "secret sins", this is impossible. If someone has attained enlightenment, they are no longer capable of producing bad kamma, even down to the level of having no "sinful" thoughts.

[Admiral Thrawn]

I'm not going to get into a religious debate with you admiral, as you seem very set in your beliefs and I have no desire to convert people. But you are deluding yourself about this. Yes this monk did come into contact with christianity, and he wasn't impressed by it. To put it nicely he was amused by the christians that came to thailand attempting to convert all the buddhists. This monk followed the path of the buddha, which has nothing to do with jesus.

 

As based on Christian theology, which is the whole premise of this thread, it is impossible that this monk will make it to heaven without Christ. He will be in for a very nasty surprise.

 

Buddhism is based on gaining knowledge about our existence, about death, about what happens after death and what leads to the end of the cycle of birth and death. Christianity on the other hand requires blind faith in a supreme being. In this sense, the two religions are polar opposites.

 

Christianity does not require 'blind-faith' as you put it, the Bible, which contains 66 books, OT and NT, is the authority behind the faith. The Bible will help you understand the Christian God, and the reason Jesus died for everyone's sin.

 

As for "secret sins", this is impossible. If someone has attained enlightenment, they are no longer capable of producing bad kamma, even down to the level of having no "sinful" thoughts.

 

But you wouldn't know, because by their very defination, they are secret.

[Gunner]

I normally just lurk here but something about this thread made me want to speak out. I hope I am not getting in over my head because I am certainly no theological expert.

 

I believe that the God of the Bible is a God of order. All creation bears witness to His power. The world is complex but orderly. There is good and evil, right and wrong, actions and consequences. God is perfect and He desires us to be perfect also so that we can live and fellowship with Him in this universe of order. I don't know why God made the laws of the universe what they are. The Bible tells us that His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. I might as well wonder why gravity works. From the time of the original sin man lost fellowship with God and God knew that we could never be "good enough" to regain the perfection that we had lost so he set in motion a plan to bring us back into felloship with Him. He knew that there had to be a payment for the sin debt under the law that he created and exists in. God loves us so much that he sacrificed part of Himself to bring us back to him. The Bible says that he desires NONE to perish but ALL to come to repentence. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. That is why there are consequences. When we sin there has to be payment under Gods system. There is no big sin or little sin just like there is no kind of being pregnant. There is right and wrong, debt and payment but He very much desires that none of us has to face the consequences so He has given us a way out. All we have to do is freely accept it.

 

I have heard it said that everyone has a God shaped hole in their heart that they are trying to fill. Some fill it with things other than God hoping that it will be enough but it never seems to satisfy. It seems to me that you want to fill this hole HotCaliGirl which is why you keep questioning Gods law of order. I hope this makes some sense to you. I am writing this late at night so it may not make sense to me come morning but hey I'm trying Hope I didn't offend. Good thread here.

 

Gunner

[Gunner]

I wanted to contribute some additional thoughts that I think apply to this discussion but I didn't want my other post to be huge so I thought I would break it up so here goes.

 

I read through this thread last night and thought it was interesting but I didn't exactly know how to respond to HotCaliGirl's question about why God could forgive murderers and rapists and the like if they truly repented and turned from their evil ways so I went to bed without posting. I got up this morning and went to my daughter's church league basketball game and the halftime speaker read a very interesting scripture that I think really applies here.

 

The text is Luke 7:36-47 New American Standard version.

 

Now one of the Pharisees was requesting Him to dine with him. And He entered the Pharisee's house and reclined at table. And behold, there was a woman in the city who was a sinner and when she learned He was reclining at table in the Pharisee's house she brought an alabaster vial of perfume and standing behind Him began to wet His feet with her tears and kept wiping them with the hair of her head and kissing His feet and anointing them with perfume. Now when the Pharisee who had invited Him saw this he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet He would know who and what sort of person this woman is who is touching Him, that she is a sinner." And Jesus said to him "Simon I have something to say to you." And he replied "Say it Teacher." A certain moneylender had two debtors: one owed 500 denarii and other 50. When they were unable to repay he forgave them both. Which of them therefore will love him more?" Simon answered "I suppose the one who he forgave more" and He said "You have judged correctly." And turning toward the woman He said to Simon. "Do you see this woman? I entered your house and you gave me no water for My feet but she has wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. "You gave Me no kiss but she since the time I came in has not ceased to kiss My feet. "You did not anoint My head with oil but she anointed My feet with perfume. For this reason I say to you, her sins which are many, have been forgiven for she loved much but he who is forgiven little loves little.

 

I think this is the reason that people who are in prison for some heinous crime that come to truly know Jesus are sincere. They know how much they have been forgiven. I do not think that this should exempt them from their full earthly punishment though. Jesus said render unto Caesar(man) what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's.

 

Sorry for the long post but I think it was pertinent to the discussion. I hope I helped in some small way.

 

Gunner