Society has lost it's ability for independent thought

[SmoochieFace]

...it's about telling the rest they are being stupid, because they are not better that causes resentments.

 

That is strictly interpretation on the part of the listener. As I have said previously, perceptions can be misleading or outright wrong.

 

Just because you think someone is telling you that you are stupid doesn't necessarily mean that someone really is telling you that you are stupid.

 

Thinking isn't the same as knowing...

[Outcast]

Feel like turning the light on yourself now, Outcast? Or are there no imperfections to be highlighted?

 

Of course I have them. I deal with them. I'm working on them. Have been my whole life and will until I die.

 

Better to be strong or weak? I'll make a value judgement and say I think it's better to be strong. What do you think?

 

'Better'? How? Why? What, objectively, would make it 'better' for you?

 

In fact, it's 'better' to not be strong. If you're independent, you're perceived very negatively - as arrogant, egotistical, etc. The root of Oprah's popularity, it's said, is that she's just like other folks, confessing her weaknesses and flaws. In that people envy strength and would like to be stronger, I suppose they think it might be 'better' but they don't like it much in others unless the others are individuals who have attained some level of prestige. It's ok for an army general to be 'strong'. But not some chick on a forum.

 

You're the one who made the statement - so how did you mean for Smoochie to interpret it? Should he feel good about being less needy or more strong than others (if, indeed, he is?) Should others feel bad about being perceived as weaker and more needy?

 

None of the above. This is a tiny phrase made up of tiny words but it's very possible:

 

it is what it is

 

It's a challenge to force oneself to observe neutrally; to impute neither positive nor negative meaning to something and to just acknowledge it as a state of being. However, interestingly enough, life is much easier to live if one can manage to persuade oneself to accept without adding value judgement, in particular negative value judgement, to people in particular. Which doesn't mean accept everything by any means but does mean 'love the sinner' .

 

Just as you said "Shame on you!" to me in order to create an impact, you must have intended for that statement to create some sort of impact. What was the intention?

 

To clarify as best I can to Smooch what 'it' is. 'It' being a particular fact of life that's in the category of 'accept the things you can't change'. Acceptance definitely implies not imputing value, IMHO.

 

.but it would be nice if you could show that you don't mind going under the microscope yourself now and again.

 

Why? Do you think I'm not introspective because I don't pour my guts out to strangers on a forum? Most of the advice I give I've gotten to through my own process of growth. I pass on the discoveries I've made - usually by trial and error. As it is, I have some pain in one arm from being on the computer too much so I try not to get involved in very lengthy discussions and only make exceptions when I'm really passionate about something and don't see my POV represented by someone else.

 

Why do you need to be a party to my introspection? If I say something that you wish to call into question, then question it and I'll explain. But this thread is about other people and other things.

 

It is not the dislike for the stance that caused the American Civil War.

 

No. It was about one group disliking another group and each having leaders who shared their views.

 

that is not inconsistent with the model you proposed.

 

I didn't propose a model.

 

We must not over-psychologize politics.

 

We have never 'psychologized' politics and that is what I think is a huge mistake. HUGE.

[SmoochieFace]

Why do they test you out like that? Because, I suppose, they want to know that you're someone who is comfortable to be around. Someone who won't get upset or angry whenever people start bantering with eachother....casual bantering being, as you can see on these boards, something that people enjoy doing to pass the time and stay in contact with eachother.

 

What bothers me - and this is something that has ALWAYS bothered me - is that when groups get together and *banter* or whatever I automatically feel as if I shouldn't join in for some reason. I feel whatever I say will not be valued therefore why even make an attempt.

 

I also see that once groups are formed - and this is strictly my opinion - it is almost impossible to *break in* so I remain on the sidelines.

[a4a]

What bothers me - and this is something that has ALWAYS bothered me - is that when groups get together and *banter* or whatever I automatically feel as if I shouldn't join in for some reason. I feel whatever I say will not be valued therefore why even make an attempt.

 

I also see that once groups are formed - and this is strictly my opinion - it is almost impossible to *break in* so I remain on the sidelines.

 

Curious Smooch do you hold some negative feeling towards these banter groups that form?

 

I have underlined the above which made me feel the need to ask this question.

 

a4a- tis better to fling poo, then to fling advice without revealing the origin of that advice. - Koko the gorilla

[SmoochieFace]

Curious Smooch do you hold some negative feeling towards these banter groups that form?

 

I have underlined the above which made me feel the need to ask this question.

 

a4a- tis better to fling poo, then to fling advice without revealing the origin of that advice. - Koko the gorilla

 

Yes, I feel resentment. I wonder how someone managed to *get in* and I cannot figure it out. What makes a person *worthy* of having friends or a social circle?

 

Things of that nature...

[a4a]

Yes, I feel resentment. I wonder how someone managed to *get in* and I cannot figure it out. What makes a person *worthy* of having friends or a social circle?

 

Things of that nature...

 

So you end up resenting the very thing that you want to be part of. Then perhaps as a soothing, or a way to compensate (which is normal, and needed at times) you perhaps lash out at that group or state " I don't need or want that anyway"???

[lindya]

'Better'? How? Why? What, objectively, would make it 'better' for you?

 

Here's what strength means to me. It means courage and boldness. It doesn't mean that you never feel fear or have doubts about yourself, but it means that you do what you believe needs to be done...despite those fears and doubts. It also means honesty. Lets say I'm a witness at a proof hearing and I'm being cross-examined. If I start lying, I'm a weak witness - because I'm going to get caught out. It might be tempting to tell lies to make myself look good - but the end result will be worse for me.

 

Weakness, from my perspective, is connected to cowardice. Doing what's safe and what feels nice...even if somewhere deep down you feel a bit uncomfortable about who and what you are.

 

That's my perception of strength. It's my perception - so it can't possibly be anything other than subjective. Just as your perceptions are subjective.

 

 

Perhaps people admire Oprah for exposing her weaknesses and flaws because they perceive an element of courage and honesty in her doing that? Again, it's subjective - but if someone constantly presents themselves as strong, independent, not needing anyone else...I wonder to what extent they're able to question themselves and face up to what they find. Or are they just hiding behind a strong front because they're too afraid to face up to the fact of their own flaws, weaknesses and hypocrisies?

 

I don't think anyone on the forum is criticising any women here for being strong...whatever the varying perceptions of strength might be. I've heard some posters criticising women they know for describing themselves as being strong and independent...but I can't recall hearing them criticising anyone for being those things.

 

The whole point that caused this debate is that Smoochie and Woggle both presented themselves as people who don't follow the herd. Did you never watch a comedy and get irritated by the canned laughter because you don't want to be told when to laugh? Or listen to an English teacher interpret a poem and feel bored because you'd prefer to read it yourself and form your own interpretation? People like to discover things. They like to make assessments of eachother. You can call it judgemental, but it won't stop people from doing it.

[loony]

That is strictly interpretation on the part of the listener. As I have said previously, perceptions can be misleading or outright wrong.

 

Just because you think someone is telling you that you are stupid doesn't necessarily mean that someone really is telling you that you are stupid.

 

Thinking isn't the same as knowing...

Then why do you act so aggressively against all the rest of the poster here as if they were attacking you? Why don't you stop for a moment and reconsider what they have to say??? You are basically accusing people who tried to understand you of having ulterior motives, of being dishonest, of not being understanding enough. People give their best and if it's not understanding enough you will have to accept this. Just because you want more and don't get it, you can't run around and complain that nobody understands you.

[lindya]

What bothers me - and this is something that has ALWAYS bothered me - is that when groups get together and *banter* or whatever I automatically feel as if I shouldn't join in for some reason. I feel whatever I say will not be valued therefore why even make an attempt.

 

Does it matter if it's valued? A bit, maybe. Remember though that most of the time people are thinking about themselves. Have a conversation with someone, and you'll see that a good bit of the time they're not so much listening to you as formulating their next sentence.

 

Have you ever cracked a joke within a group, only to realise that nobody heard you...then to realise, even worse, that one person did actually hear you - so your embarrassment at not being acknowledged by the group has been witnessed by someone. You didn't escape unnoticed!

 

Again, not everyone has AS - of course.....but these little embarrassments and humiliations happen to everyone. Sometimes you just have to acknowledge your own embarrassment, feelings of ridiculousness briefly - then let it go and move on. So you try to join in the banter and nobody responds. Let it go, try again later. Maybe people were busy, or someone else posted at the same time as you did.

 

It sounds as if on top of the AS you have a bit of a life script that says "people will always exclude me from their fun." Life may not go according to that script all the time, but the moment it does you'll notice. You'll get that deflated feeling of "here we go again...nobody wants to know me."

 

You need to change that script to something more positive. I don't know - maybe "Everyone gets excluded sometimes" - so that when it happens to you, you can think "I got my turn just there." Then try to just let it go.

[loony]

What bothers me - and this is something that has ALWAYS bothered me - is that when groups get together and *banter* or whatever I automatically feel as if I shouldn't join in for some reason. I feel whatever I say will not be valued therefore why even make an attempt.

 

I also see that once groups are formed - and this is strictly my opinion - it is almost impossible to *break in* so I remain on the sidelines.

But isn't that just your own perception of the situation? I personally don't understand how you can criticize others for taking things too personally while you are doing exactly the same.

[Outcast]

Yes, I feel resentment. I wonder how someone managed to *get in* and I cannot figure it out. What makes a person *worthy* of having friends or a social circle?

 

Things of that nature...

 

That's easy, Smooch. They're 'like me'. They laugh at the same jokes, like the same things, dislike the same things, hold the same values. You know - 'birds of a feather'. So, dear Smooch, you can't grasp too tightly to that which makes you individual and expect to be embraced for it. You either have to loosen up or lighten up on your standards or accept that 'individual' and 'alone' are usually very tightly intertwined.

 

Here's what strength means to me. It means courage and boldness.

 

Weakness, from my perspective, is connected to cowardice.

 

See, this is what's so nifty about humans. There are umpty dozen nuances to the word 'strength' and in this case I was more using it as 'able to withstand adversity' and 'weakness' as 'suceptible to being adversely affected by difficulties'. Cowardice may be a weakness, but I would not be likely to consider someone who is weak necessarily a coward.

 

I wonder to what extent they're able to question themselves and face up to what they find. Or are they just hiding behind a strong front because they're too afraid to face up to the fact of their own flaws, weaknesses and hypocrisies?

 

That little niggling suspicion that someone couldn't possibly be that secure? Envy, perhaps? Is it not possible that someone might have spent a lot of time resolving fears and coming to terms with life as it is in a way that gives them peace of mind and the strength that comes from that? If that's not possible to envision, why is it not possible to envision?

 

Really, some Ellis and some Buddhism. It's not that hard to do.

 

You can call it judgemental, but it won't stop people from doing it.

 

But here's the thing. Judging others negatively causes you (general 'you') to dislike them. Dislike is a negative feeling. All the physical reactions which are triggered by negative feelings are unpleasant and unhealthy. So what benefit is it to be judgmental? I mean, if people want to be judgmental they can but what a waste of a lovely life. And again, I don't mean you smile on people doing evil to one another but you really need to be sure evil is being done before you waste your energy by pouring it into negativism.

[a4a]

I see 3 different communications going on here to Smooch.

 

1. I understand what you are saying, It is not you, they do not understand you because of their own flaws and imperfections. You can throw in recognition of AS in here as well and it is part of you and it will always be part of you and nobody will get it, it's not your fault it is their fault as they lack the ability to ever understand you. You need to create your own reality and realize it is not your fault.

 

2. You do have AS but that is not the only thing that is contributing to your social problems, you need to realize this and perhaps your life will seem a tad more positive and you can participate with others in a way that you choose to. Give a little and eventually it will pay off for you.

 

3. Your anger and resentment is unfounded. You hold others to a higher expectation than you hold yourself to. Get over it already.

 

Am I on to something here? Or am I just on something?

[SmoochieFace]

Then why do you act so aggressively against all the rest of the poster here as if they were attacking you? Why don't you stop for a moment and reconsider what they have to say??? You are basically accusing people who tried to understand you of having ulterior motives, of being dishonest, of not being understanding enough. People give their best and if it's not understanding enough you will have to accept this. Just because you want more and don't get it, you can't run around and complain that nobody understands you.

 

Let's do that - let's stop for a moment here.

 

Have you NEVER *attacked* me here? Come on now, be honest. What *set you off* against me in the beginning? Was it my remark about *the media*? I think it was and I also think you took it quite personally for some reason. Was my remark an *attack* against you personally? If you took it personally, why? Ever since then you and I have been *butting heads*. Why is that?

 

I have seen you do the same thing to Wog whenever he went off about *women this, women that*. You took it personally as if he was attacking YOU. Why do you do that?

[a4a]

Let's do that - let's stop for a moment here.

 

Have you NEVER *attacked* me here? Come on now, be honest. What *set you off* against me in the beginning? Was it my remark about *the media*? I think it was and I also think you took it quite personally for some reason. Was my remark an *attack* against you personally? If you took it personally, why? Ever since then you and I have been *butting heads*. Why is that?

 

I have seen you do the same thing to Wog whenever he went off about *women this, women that*. You took it personally as if he was attacking YOU. Why do you do that?

 

 

Please do not fall into finger pointing... see my above post and do comment.

Which form of communication makes you feel more at ease Smooch?

[SmoochieFace]

So you end up resenting the very thing that you want to be part of. Then perhaps as a soothing, or a way to compensate (which is normal, and needed at times) you perhaps lash out at that group or state " I don't need or want that anyway"???

 

BINGO!

 

Also the fact that they cannot *see* that I want to be a part of group triggers those negative feelings. I do not know how to communicate that want to anyone.

[lindya]

That little niggling suspicion that someone couldn't possibly be that secure?

 

I can't believe that someone is truly secure unless they've looked inwards, recognised the imperfections and accepted that they are every bit as flawed and as human as the next person is.

 

Every time I call someone a hypocrite, I'll be reminded of something I've said or done that could be described as hypocritical. Is it the same for you, or have you never said/done anything hypocritical? If the answer to that second question is no, then I'm not certain you've looked inside yourself all that thoroughly.

[loony]

Let's do that - let's stop for a moment here.

 

Have you NEVER *attacked* me here? Come on now, be honest. What *set you off* against me in the beginning? Was it my remark about *the media*? I think it was and I also think you took it quite personally for some reason. Was my remark an *attack* against you personally? If you took it personally, why? Ever since then you and I have been *butting heads*. Why is that?

 

I have seen you do the same thing to Wog whenever he went off about *women this, women that*. You took it personally as if he was attacking YOU. Why do you do that?

It quite annoys me when people walk around and say that women are this, women are that except for my girlfriend, because I am a woman. It continues to annoy me when said person attacks other guys who say basically the same. How hypocritical is this???

 

I didn't criticize you for taking anything personally, you start of defending yourself that I shouldn't take the things you said personally, therefore I do have to wonder, where is your nonchalance when people say things to you? Why get upset about it? Is this not some kind of double standard?

[SmoochieFace]

Please do not fall into finger pointing... see my above post and do comment.

Which form of communication makes you feel more at ease Smooch?

 

One and two sound good. Three will make me log off and never come back.

 

The flaw with your desire for me to not engage in *fingerpointing* (I don't see it that way, but whatever) is that while I have to *explain* myself loony gets off scot-free by not explaining herself. It's as if only I am the one with the problem here and that is far from the truth.

[a4a]

BINGO!

 

Also the fact that they cannot *see* that I want to be a part of group triggers those negative feelings. I do not know how to communicate that want to anyone.

 

 

well you are communicating it right now. I for one am recognizing and acknowledging it. I cannot say how I will react to you in the future because of that, but this feeling you have...... many of us do have the same feeling.

 

So you need to find a way to say " I would like to participate in your group" but without coming off as a needy nerd and preserve your ego? (which is again normal)

[lindya]

The flaw with your desire for me to not engage in *fingerpointing* (I don't see it that way, but whatever) is that while I have to *explain* myself loony gets off scot-free by not explaining herself. It's as if only I am the one with the problem here and that is far from the truth.

 

To me it's more like a big noisy party where several people are debating loudly with eachother. Which I quite like - actually, but I appreciate it might not be to everyone's taste...so I'll pipe down.

 

O - email me if you want to continue the debate, though I need to do some work just now.

[a4a]

I can't believe that someone is truly secure unless they've looked inwards, recognised the imperfections and accepted that they are every bit as flawed and as human as the next person is.

 

 

I teach one thing and one thing first to all of my students ........

 

You must first look to yourself to understand what error you made to cause the undesired reaction.

 

a4a

[SmoochieFace]

It quite annoys me when people walk around and say that women are this, women are that except for my girlfriend, because I am a woman.

 

Now we are onto something. It must annoy you for a reason... people don't just get annoyed over something just for the hell of it, right? So it is possible to say that your being annoyed is rooted in some negative experience you have had? If that is the case then aren't other people afforded the same right to be annoyed over certain things based on their experiences? Aren't other people's experiences just as legitimate as yours?

 

 

It continues to annoy me when said person attacks other guys who say basically the same. How hypocritical is this???

 

Yes, I have called out other posters on their stances. The difference is that I am LEARNING that those stances are based on fallacious beliefs whereas those other posters are not learning. Yes, I was quite bitter when I first came aboard but that has been tempered by reality - a reality I have grasped from my experiences with the woman I love and from reading this site. Those that I have *attacked* continue to maintain the same inaccurate beliefs and at the same time seem to be actively promoting them.

[a4a]

Is it another one of my ignorant observations?

 

Smooch are you in a way sort of trying to reach out on LS and say:

I would like you to see me in a different light now?

 

a4a

[SmoochieFace]

It quite annoys me when people walk around and say that women are this, women are that except for my girlfriend, because I am a woman.

 

Something else I want to point out here...

 

You say "because you are a woman." That certainly is true, however, you are only just YOU. Does it annoy you because you have a need to *stand up and defend* ALL women? What about standing up for YOU only and not allow ridiculous comments about women IN GENERAL to affect you? You do not represent ALL women - you are an individual - so those generalised comments shouldn't affect you negatively, right?

[SmoochieFace]

So you need to find a way to say " I would like to participate in your group" but without coming off as a needy nerd and preserve your ego? (which is again normal)

 

Lop off the "needy nerd" and "preserving ego" parts and you will have nailed it.