Science and Religion

[barfool]

Here is my first post in the religion section. Hopefully I won't be struck down by lightning.

 

Long story short, I was at one point christian then became disenchanted with organized religions and just maintained a personal worship. Fast forward to college and my getting a degree in the sciences. I took courses on religion and in philosophy as well and at some point "lost my faith."

 

Sometimes I would find myself veiwing science almost as a religion, where I assume everthing I was learning was "the truth." I would quickly check myself and remember that science is just trying to find this truth but does not claim to have it. That is the beauty of science, the more you learn the more refined your understanding of the world is and the closer to the truth you become. Of course in that process you also learn that what you previously believed was wrong and what you currently believe may be wrong as well.

 

I was just wondering if religious people go through this same kind of process as well, or is it just "I believe and therefore it must be right and the truth." I have thought that the religious seem to not do much thinking for themselves, otherwise they probably wouldn't need to fall back on religion for comfort and security. But I wouldn't mind being proven wrong!

[a4a]

I so want to comment here but I am stricken with da flu so cannot even figure out the remote control right now..... very interesting thread you have started. I look forward to reading others opinions, I may form one myself once I can get a grip on my brain functions.

 

a4a- the doo run runs down my leg

[TeaCooler]

 

 

I was just wondering if religious people go through this same kind of process as well, or is it just "I believe and therefore it must be right and the truth."

 

i think people who think this way miss the point entirely, and in the end make a mockery of religion and science. you can feel it, you can sense it, you can believe it, but you don't know, and you certainly cannot claim it's truth for someone else.

 

i'm like you. i follow my own path. do i think it's the truth, i don't know, but i certainly try to find out, and i feel it will be a life-long (til the death and even after) discovery. that to me is a process, and it seems to be a healthy, sound way to go about anything in life.

 

i think this is a great thread...though i hate to see what becomes of it.

[alphamale]

I rembmer when me and my mom were having a discussion regarding religion back about 20 yrs ago....she was a well educated person who was moderately religious.

 

So I asked her if the earth is only a few thousand yrs old then why are there fossils being discovered that are like 100 million yrs old?

 

Her answer was that the devil put them there to make us not believe in God.

[blind_otter]

I was talking about this with my exBF last night, regarding neurobiological developmental and metacognition. At some point in your mid 20s your brain finishes developing. Unlike a small child, you can think about HOW you think about things. Metacognition. Through this exploration you analyze what parts of your worldview were "borrowed" from parents/family and your basic perception of the world changes into something of your own creation.

 

My point was (he disagreed) - not everyone gets to that point, where they are able to/want to think about how they think, or why the believe what they believe. The philosophical conundrums and complications are terrifying to behold. For those who chose to indulge this interest, and for those who chose NOT to.

 

There are a multitude of elements leading up to a given individual having the capacity to challenge the very elemental things that make up how they understand reality. Like, being exposed to as many different outlooks and worldviews as possible, exposure to different cultures and religious systems. THat kinda thing.

[barfool]

Just to clear things up in case it is confusing, though it probably doesn't have any bearing on this discussion. I am currently not religious. I do not believe in a creator or a higher power. I am especially wary of organized religions, though if forced I would be something like Taoist. I am a chemist so I "know" that everything is about exchanges of energy. Nature is a beautifully complex thing.

 

Anyway, enough about me. Time for some opinions and enlightening (hopefully) conversation!

[barfool]

Metacognition. Through this exploration you analyze what parts of your worldview were "borrowed" from parents/family and your basic perception of the world changes into something of your own creation.

 

Very interesting b_o. I don't know about when it develops or if it indeed does, though. I feel like I have been questioning and analyzing things since before college, though not successfully. I'm starting to think that going with this route you never get to one understanding but have to constantly evolve your thoughts and beliefs. I guess this is part of that uncertainty that so many seem to be frightened of.

[alphamale]

I was talking about this with my exBF last night, regarding neurobiological developmental and metacognition.

hmm...fascinating.

 

At some point in your mid 20s your brain finishes developing. Unlike a small child, you can think about HOW you think about things.

this is also why people who are "dumb" at 25 will most likely stay dumb for the rest of their lives. its also why college-educated people, in general, have a much more global view of things. they also have learned how to learn.

 

Through this exploration you analyze what parts of your worldview were "borrowed" from parents/family and your basic perception of the world changes into something of your own creation.

we all eventually turn into our parents since they had the greatest influence on us when our brain was a sponge. parents instinctive know that their thoughts and beliefs will be ingrained upon their offspring if its done at a young age. a 10 year old has little control over what is told to them or drilled into their brain at such an innocent age.

 

My point was (he disagreed) - not everyone gets to that point, where they are able to/want to think about how they think, or why the believe what they believe.

i would tend to agree. it has much to do with intelligence and education at a very early age.

 

Like, being exposed to as many different outlooks and worldviews as possible, exposure to different cultures and religious systems. THat kinda thing.

but this must be done at a young age to be effective. I lived in three different countries and cultures before I turned eight and to this day I have a much more global view of the world.

[blind_otter]

Very interesting b_o. I don't know about when it develops or if it indeed does, though. I feel like I have been questioning and analyzing things since before college, though not successfully. I'm starting to think that going with this route you never get to one understanding but have to constantly evolve your thoughts and beliefs. I guess this is part of that uncertainty that so many seem to be frightened of.

 

If it makes you feel any better, the last part of your brain to mature (around 24-26/27 years old, depending) governs rational thought and decision making. This is why metacognition is impossible prior to this age, or if it is done it's a clumsy attempt at best.

 

It's interesting to note that developmentally children tend to move from inclusive to exclusive thinking. Prior to concrete operationalization, which happens around preschool, they just think that everyone knows what they know. They gradually learn to differentiate between what they think/know and what other individuals think/know -- prior to that everyone is just part of "me" to the child.

 

I wonder about this process and how it may be traumatic, for some children, to begin to understand the distance between who they are and who everyone else is.

[alphamale]

I wonder about this process and how it may be traumatic, for some children, to begin to understand the distance between who they are and who everyone else is.

but this is part and parcel of the maturation process. this is how a child becomes and adult. it happens over a long period of time (as in years) so I don't see how it could be traumatic.

 

I grew up in an upper-middle class family and when I was a kid i just sorta assumed that everyone lived like us. It was quite an eye-opener when I discovered that most did not live like us. I was like...WTF?!

[hooghie]

Great topic barfool!

 

I have thought that the religious seem to not do much thinking for themselves, otherwise they probably wouldn't need to fall back on religion for comfort and security.

 

I agree. I think most overly religious people are closed minded and weak.

 

I lived in three different countries and cultures before I turned eight and to this day I have a much more global view of the world.

 

I lived in 4 different countries before I was 8 (in 3 continents). I guess that makes me have a more global view of the world than you do

[alphamale]

I agree. I think most overly religious people are closed minded and weak.

well of course they are HOOGHIE....if you need some book that was written 2000 yrs ago to guide your life then something is majorly wrong.

 

what intelligent and insightful people do is question everything and look at all the possible angles and then make their own conclusions. problem is that if youre under-educated and weak-minded and think inside the box then you're much more suseptible to being spoon-fed your thoughts and beliefs.

 

look at history.

[blind_otter]

but this is part and parcel of the maturation process. this is how a child becomes and adult. it happens over a long period of time (as in years) so I don't see how it could be traumatic.

 

I grew up in an upper-middle class family and when I was a kid i just sorta assumed that everyone lived like us. It was quite an eye-opener when I discovered that most did not live like us. I was like...WTF?!

 

It seems like some people get stalled out at that stage. Maybe it's just a tender developmental stage in general. IN general I felt like WTF all the time as a kid. I've seen it countless times. People who cannot comprehend how another individual could think in a way that is any different from them...grown adults, too.

 

Anyways, Marx called religion the opiate of the masses for a reason.

[a4a]

Religion is the masterpiece of the art of animal training, for it trains people as to how to think. - Arthur Schopenhaur

 

 

one of my favorite quotes of all time ever ever and more ever.

 

a4a- the tellitubbies made me do it

[Admiral Thrawn]

 

Long story short, I was at one point christian then became disenchanted with organized religions and just maintained a personal worship. Fast forward to college and my getting a degree in the sciences. I took courses on religion and in philosophy as well and at some point "lost my faith."

 

What do you mean maintained a personal worship? Were you connecting with God at one point?

 

Sometimes I would find myself veiwing science almost as a religion, where I assume everthing I was learning was "the truth." I would quickly check myself and remember that science is just trying to find this truth but does not claim to have it. That is the beauty of science, the more you learn the more refined your understanding of the world is and the closer to the truth you become. Of course in that process you also learn that what you previously believed was wrong and what you currently believe may be wrong as well.

 

So, you are saying you lost your faith because of 'a process'? Or did you lose it because the Evolution theory is anti-theistic in nature? Other than that specific theory, I do not see any disharmony between science and religion.

 

I was just wondering if religious people go through this same kind of process as well, or is it just "I believe and therefore it must be right and the truth."

 

Religion is based on faith and the premise that there is more to life than just understanding the natural world, and the reality is not limited to the five sences. Science is limited to the five sences and the natural world.

 

I have thought that the religious seem to not do much thinking for themselves, otherwise they probably wouldn't need to fall back on religion for comfort and security.

 

I dont know how your lot is in life, if you are part of the wealthy priviledged classes where everything seems to be going for them, but, as far as civil rights movements are concerned and social justice causes, religion has been very instrumental in giving people hope and equalising society. Furthermore, not everything in life is under control. Science does not answer why you are here, what purpose you have in life, where you are going after you die, or what is the whole point of everything? It doesn't answer why people are so wicked.

 

But I wouldn't mind being proven wrong!

 

And I wouldn't mind crashing this party.

[quankanne]

the more you learn the more refined your understanding of the world is and the closer to the truth you become.

 

this is what believers feel, too, but their Truth is centered in God and their spirituality, not in worldly things because their understanding is that life is fleeting, while the afterlive is infinite. Thus, their minds are focused on the great beyond. I imagine someone who is really into science has that same experience looking at and breaking things into minute particles or chemicals and "seeing," in a sense, eternity … faith and science are not mutually exclusive – what the brain isn't able to grasp, the spirit is able to make that leap. It's true of things scientific, and it's true of belief in God.

 

I have thought that the religious seem to not do much thinking for themselves, otherwise they probably wouldn't need to fall back on religion for comfort and security.

 

when someone is truly tuned into his spiritual side, he becomes more aware of the world around him; he begins to comprehend that his actions have more than just simple consequences. He becomes less self-centered and more other-centered because his faith helps shift his attention away from himself and toward others. A prime example is when natural disaster strikes, like the tsunami in Asia or last fall's double-whammy hurricanes along the Gulf Coast. People gave of themselves unfailingly, even though they really didn't have to – something inside triggered a response to those people in need. This isn't to say that each and every one of those people were motivated by religion to do it, but the was some kind of innate faith that inspired them to reach out at that point in time, even though they prolly could barely afford to do so. I don't think their faith – whether inspired by a religious background or instinctive – or the actions that resulted because of that faith was indicative of any sort of unawareness.

 

AT pointed out something that often starts the ball rolling, regarding spirituality: At some point, people begin to question the whole reason for their being. When they find that they are not able to adequately explain using science or possessions, they start reaching out spiritually, and those who are willing to look beyond than just a pat answer discover God.

[Outcast]

Sometimes I would find myself veiwing science almost as a religion, where I assume everthing I was learning was "the truth."

 

It's called 'scientism' and its proponents are every bit as bombastic as the ultra-theists And every bit as self-righteous. Hence statements like

 

I have thought that the religious seem to not do much thinking for themselves, otherwise they probably wouldn't need to fall back on religion for comfort and security

 

Prior to concrete operationalization, which happens around preschool, they just think that everyone knows what they know. They gradually learn to differentiate between what they think/know and what other individuals think/know

 

And just when I was going to say this, you did:

 

I've seen it countless times. People who cannot comprehend how another individual could think in a way that is any different from them...grown adults, too.

 

Which is, it seems, much more common than ever before. Any ideas why, anyone?

[Chris777]

It's called 'scientism' and its proponents are every bit as bombastic as the ultra-theists And every bit as self-righteous.

as well as every bit a religion in itself

I've seen it countless times. People who cannot comprehend how another individual could think in a way that is any different from them...grown adults, too.

Which is, it seems, much more common than ever before. Any ideas why, anyone?

pride

many people fail to recognize where it is they came from, they can come up and say all manner of intelectual jargon, and give the outward appearance that they are and have always been "right" but look at children and fads for an example, no matter who you are at some point in your life you were "fooled" by someone or some fad, you now may vehemently oppose. My daughter used to love "barney" and now she despises it and cannot comprehend how she ever liked it, I myself during the course of "suffering through it" with her realized it wasn't half as bad as I had been led to believe. Funny thing is it was much more intelligent than all the mindless drivel of many of the cartoons that she now watches.

 

just because you change never forget you too were once decieved.

[barfool]

What do you mean maintained a personal worship? Were you connecting with God at one point?

 

I mean that I would search my soul and pray and try to keep some kind of connection to a higher power.

 

So, you are saying you lost your faith because of 'a process'? Or did you lose it because the Evolution theory is anti-theistic in nature?

 

I actually lost my faith before I got heavily in to science. When I was christian I questioned everything and would never 100% believe what fallible humans told me. I tried on my own to find what a higher power was to me and did not succeed. I never felt "touched" and eventually came to believe that all of this can exist without a god.

 

I dont know how your lot is in life, if you are part of the wealthy priviledged classes where everything seems to be going for them....

 

I am not. I have had problems within my family and behavioral disorders myself. My life has been anything but simple.

 

Furthermore, not everything in life is under control. Science does not answer why you are here, what purpose you have in life, where you are going after you die, or what is the whole point of everything? It doesn't answer why people are so wicked.

 

No, science does not answer any of these questions. I personally think that each person creates his/her own reason for living. It is their life and theirs alone. I've lost my faith in a god but have gained faith in the human species. In their ability to be strong for themselves and not be afraid of how fleeting their existence is or that there is no "point" to their life besides what they make of it. I'm not saying that everyone takes advantage of their abilities, they don't, and that is a sad thing.

[a4a]

I dont know how your lot is in life, if you are part of the wealthy priviledged classes where everything seems to be going for them, .

 

 

what does this have to do with the price of beans in China?

 

a4a- I scream you scream we all scream for ice cream

[alphamale]

Furthermore, not everything in life is under control. Science does not answer why you are here, what purpose you have in life, where you are going after you die, or what is the whole point of everything? It doesn't answer why people are so wicked.

so what AT???? Why do we need to know why we are here? Why do we need a purpose? Why do you need to know where one goes after death? Who cares! Maybe there is no point....ever thought of that?

 

Humans will fill in the holes of their knowledge because it makes them feel better.

[a4a]

so what AT???? Why do we need to know why we are here? Why do we need a purpose? Why do you need to know where one goes after death? Who cares! Maybe there is no point....ever thought of that?

 

Humans will fill in the holes of their knowledge because it makes them feel better.

 

Very true Alpha...... could just be maggots waiting around the corner

[barfool]

I imagine someone who is really into science has that same experience looking at and breaking things into minute particles or chemicals and "seeing," in a sense, eternity … faith and science are not mutually exclusive...

 

There does seem to be many similarities between science and religion in that we are looking for truth. It's just that when scientists find more answers there are always more questions. It is never just "this is the way it is, period." And part of science is chaos, so nothing can be completely understood anyway.

 

That is how I see the major difference between science and religion. In science you are striving for the truth but know that much of what you have thus figured out is probably incorrect. In religion you know what the truth is because it was laid out for you and all you have to do is try to live your life according to your religion's teachings. The religious have the "faith" that what they believe is right while the scientists know that what they believe is not right but is getting closer.

 

At some point, people begin to question the whole reason for their being. When they find that they are not able to adequately explain using science or possessions, they start reaching out spiritually, and those who are willing to look beyond than just a pat answer discover God.

 

I found through my life that I don't need someone else to tell me "this is your reason for being." I don't see the need for that kind of definitive answer at all. I know why I exist. My parents procreated. The rest of life is just the pursuit of happiness. I feel that this in no way de-values my life because I reach fulfillment on many levels living this way.

 

To be brutally honest I think that humans like all animals are here for themselves which makes them selfish. Even if you are doing something for someone else, like helping the hurricane victims. Why do you do it? Because it makes you feel good. If it made you miserable then you wouldn't do it. Anyway, this is a bit off topic...

[barfool]

It's called 'scientism' and its proponents are every bit as bombastic as the ultra-theists And every bit as self-righteous.

 

I know, that is why I have to check myself when feeling this way. It's a dangerous thing to fall into, the whole feeling of I'm right and you're not.

 

Which is, it seems, much more common than ever before. Any ideas why, anyone?

 

Arrogance. A holier-than-thou attitude that I partially attribute to the way we are raised here in America at least. That we are so special, deserve everything and are always right. No humility, respect or understanding.

[blind_otter]

so what AT???? Why do we need to know why we are here? Why do we need a purpose? Why do you need to know where one goes after death? Who cares! Maybe there is no point....ever thought of that?

 

Humans will fill in the holes of their knowledge because it makes them feel better.

 

Wow, Alphamale and the great humanistic psychologist Viktor Frankl. It's true, though. Frankl happened to have degrees in psychology and spent 5 years in Auschwitz and lost his wife and life's work to the Nazis, but developed the same idea in terms of the meaning of life.

 

Humans seek meaning to make themselves feel better, that's pretty much it. Religion provides a convenient, external context to velcro yourself into, without requiring the constant exhaustive questioning and moral relativism of being responsible of constructing your own moral context from which to view the world.

 

People who feel there is no greater meaning have simply not found an appropriate method of giving meaning to their own lives.