Science and Religion

[blind_otter]

Even if you are doing something for someone else, like helping the hurricane victims. Why do you do it? Because it makes you feel good. If it made you miserable then you wouldn't do it. Anyway, this is a bit off topic...

 

Researchers have been questioning whether true altruism exists for many years. Ultimately, though, the explanation that "it makes you feel better" just doesn't cut it for me. And it's fallacious to say that altruism does not exist in the animal kingdom.

[Admiral Thrawn]

I mean that I would search my soul and pray and try to keep some kind of connection to a higher power.

 

To 'keep some kind of connection'? You were connected then at some point?

What higher power - the God of the Christian Bible?

 

I actually lost my faith before I got heavily in to science. When I was christian I questioned everything and would never 100% believe what fallible humans told me. I tried on my own to find what a higher power was to me and did not succeed. I never felt "touched" and eventually came to believe that all of this can exist without a god.

 

What type of Christian demonination was your background with? If you were never 'touched', or had an authentic experience of the reality of God, then what was your faith based on, or your 'connection' to the higher power?

 

So, in a nutshell, you didn't think God was listening to or answering your prayers then and concluded He did not exist?

 

 

I am not. I have had problems within my family and behavioral disorders myself. My life has been anything but simple.

 

And you prayed about that?

 

No, science does not answer any of these questions. I personally think that each person creates his/her own reason for living. It is their life and theirs alone.

 

But if there was no God and you dont like the way life is going, then you could just kill yourself without worrying about any reprocussions, right, or you could just do anything as you please since everyone, will simply just die, no matter what good or bad things that are done. That would be unjust.

 

I've lost my faith in a god but have gained faith in the human species.

 

That is odd. The Bible does say to 'love thy neighbour as thyself' and teaches in a way to have faith in other people.

 

In their ability to be strong for themselves and not be afraid of how fleeting their existence is or that there is no "point" to their life besides what they make of it. I'm not saying that everyone takes advantage of their abilities, they don't, and that is a sad thing.

 

That is assuming that life is fair in itself, which it is not.

[TeaCooler]

what does this have to do with the price of beans in China?

 

 

absolutely nothing.

 

i hate the whole "people who work hard or are just simply lucky are bad people" concept. it's so theatre.

[quankanne]

That is how I see the major difference between science and religion. In science you are striving for the truth but know that much of what you have thus figured out is probably incorrect. In religion you know what the truth is because it was laid out for you and all you have to do is try to live your life according to your religion's teachings. The religious have the "faith" that what they believe is right while the scientists know that what they believe is not right but is getting closer.

 

from a very subjective viewpoint, I can say that a person's faith and spirituality is constantly evolving because of the impact of life experiences and knowlege. Some folks are content to be mired where they are, just happily contented in God, but there are many others whose thoughts about what they believe and why are ever-changing. Which, in a sense, would render previous belief and knowlege obsolete. I think the major difference between science and faith is that the former is brain-oriented and seeks proof, while the latter is more visceral, content to just be. However, in both, a person is seeking knowlege they do not possess ...

 

I don't see the need for that kind of definitive answer at all. I know why I exist. My parents procreated. The rest of life is just the pursuit of happiness. I feel that this in no way de-values my life because I reach fulfillment on many levels living this way.

 

and that's perfectly fine, because it works best for you. Seeing myself in relation to a higher power is just ducky for me!

[barfool]

from a very subjective viewpoint, I can say that a person's faith and spirituality is constantly evolving because of the impact of life experiences and knowlege. Some folks are content to be mired where they are, just happily contented in God, but there are many others whose thoughts about what they believe and why are ever-changing. Which, in a sense, would render previous belief and knowlege obsolete.

 

This was exactly the point of my starting the thread in the first place. I was under the impression that yes you may grow and change as a person but that you maintained your religion without questioning or challenging it because it is what they think is "right" and "the truth".

 

So cheers! It's nice to know that religious people don't always just follow along with what they are told.

[barfool]

To 'keep some kind of connection'? You were connected then at some point?

What higher power - the God of the Christian Bible?...

What type of Christian demonination was your background with? If you were never 'touched', or had an authentic experience of the reality of God, then what was your faith based on, or your 'connection' to the higher power?

 

I was raised baptist. When I broke away from organized religion I was still praying to the christian god though did not believe that what humans were saying is the word of god and the will of god was true. We are too selfish and corruptable to have that much power and not mangle it.

 

The only real feeling that I got when I was my most "religious" was a sense of relief that I did not need to be frightened about dying or any other thing because it was "god's will." But I did not feel anything else. No real inner-contentment or absolute sense that it was right. Eventually I found that if I am mentally strong then I didn't need to be afraid of things anyway and it took away my reason to have a god.

 

But if there was no God and you dont like the way life is going, then you could just kill yourself without worrying about any reprocussions, right, or you could just do anything as you please since everyone, will simply just die, no matter what good or bad things that are done. That would be unjust.

 

I have been suicidal, have been an inpatient in a behavioral health center. Just because I was not religious didn't mean that I could kill myself without consequenses. The reason I didn't is because I was with a man that loved me and I didn't want to hurt him like that. Hurting those who are living is the consequence of suicide. Much better than because you are afraid of going to hell.

 

And I think it is entirely possible to have morals without religion. They just won't be the same as yours or a hindus etc. but they are still there.

 

And I think the fact that everyone dies is the ultimate form of justice. No matter who you are, how much money you have, how good you are or how bad we all die. There is no superiority when it comes to that.

 

The Bible does say to 'love thy neighbour as thyself' and teaches in a way to have faith in other people.

 

But I think it is quite counterproductive to "have faith in other people" and at the same time say they are going to burn for all eternity in hell because they don't think like you do. It's more like "have pity for other people" but you are better than them because you are part of the god circle and they aren't.

[barfool]

Researchers have been questioning whether true altruism exists for many years. Ultimately, though, the explanation that "it makes you feel better" just doesn't cut it for me. And it's fallacious to say that altruism does not exist in the animal kingdom.

 

Thinking about it more I suppose that I could perform completely unselfish acts for the ones that I unconditionally love. Though, even then, it would give me some satisfaction to help out someone I love because I love them and helping them is what I like to do, even if it doing something I hate.

[alphamale]

Thinking about it more I suppose that I could perform completely unselfish acts for the ones that I unconditionally love.

"unconditional love" does not exist....it belongs in the same category as father christmas and the tooth fairy.

[quankanne]

It's nice to know that religious people don't always just follow along with what they are told.

 

what's that Don Henley song, where he sings, "The more I know, the less I understand"? That's how I've found my faith journey to be, in that I'm having to take a closer look at just why this is so important to me

 

Eventually I found that if I am mentally strong then I didn't need to be afraid of things anyway and it took away my reason to have a god.

 

I wonder if that stems from a faith founded in fear? I've had people tell me (friends, people I've interviewed for stories) that their altar call was based more in the fear of dying and going to hell without being reconciled with God, rather than because it was a desire first and foremost to know and love him – being scared into belief, as I understand it. And I think that's an awful way to be in a relationship with anyone, much less someone you profess as your creator and God. While I understand the desire to evangelize, or share about him, I don't agree with the methods used by some to bring others to God. God is about love, IMHO; it all flows from there.

[quankanne]

"unconditional love" does not exist....it belongs in the same category as father christmas and the tooth fairy.

 

I say it does, but is determined by individual response to practice it. Parents have it, though not all practice it.

[alphamale]

"unconditional love" does not exist....it belongs in the same category as father christmas and the tooth fairy.

 

I say it does, but is determined by individual response to practice it. Parents have it, though not all practice it.

parents may have "unconditional love" when their child is very young but if they mistreat or don't take care of the child then that love can vanish quite fast. Love, along with everyhting else on earth, always has conditions.

[TeaCooler]

parents may have "unconditional love" when their child is very young but if they mistreat or don't take care of the child then that love can vanish quite fast. Love, along with everyhting else on earth, always has conditions.

 

 

i think she meant parents having unconditional love for their children.

[Admiral Thrawn]

I was raised baptist. When I broke away from organized religion I was still praying to the christian god though did not believe that what humans were saying is the word of god and the will of god was true. We are too selfish and corruptable to have that much power and not mangle it.

 

You had a negative experience in that church? Someone did not rub off the right way with you and you got turned off?

 

Baptist churches, as with any other churches vary on annointings. When I mean 'annointing' I mean movement of the Spirit. For some reason or other, it appears that you did not feel the presence or call of God in that environment and that indicates to me that something was lacking.

 

When I was interested in the things of the Lord, the church at the time, Prayer Palace had a stronger annointing, and it really strengthened my resolve and hunger for the Lord at the time. However, that was over 13 years ago. But, I know there are some 'dead' churches out there where the pastors are not speaking with annointed conviction, or the music may be dry.

 

Does it make sence to you that the particular Baptist church you went to may not have had a good annointing?

 

The only real feeling that I got when I was my most "religious" was a sense of relief that I did not need to be frightened about dying or any other thing because it was "god's will." But I did not feel anything else. No real inner-contentment or absolute sense that it was right.

 

Then I understand why you lost your faith, because, you never had it to start. You cant lose something you do not have. Without an authentic conversion experience (often called a 'testimony' in Christian circles) the faith you are brought up in is not going to stick, and is just going to be a dreadfully boring waste of time if you are not into it.

 

Eventually I found that if I am mentally strong then I didn't need to be afraid of things anyway and it took away my reason to have a god.

 

So, you believe the world is limited to the natural world?

 

I have been suicidal, have been an inpatient in a behavioral health center. Just because I was not religious didn't mean that I could kill myself without consequenses. The reason I didn't is because I was with a man that loved me and I didn't want to hurt him like that. Hurting those who are living is the consequence of suicide. Much better than because you are afraid of going to hell.

 

Then you had an indirect experience with God. The love you have for your boyfriend, or that relationship, is within context of the love of Christ. So, you understand the unconditional love of Jesus Christ, in the context of the relationship (minus sexuality of course). The fact is 'love' had saved you from killing yourself. Since, God is love, therefore you had a manifestation of God through love.

 

And I think it is entirely possible to have morals without religion. They just won't be the same as yours or a hindus etc. but they are still there.

 

But they are always reletavistic and comparative to other people as opposed to an absolute construct.

 

And I think the fact that everyone dies is the ultimate form of justice. No matter who you are, how much money you have, how good you are or how bad we all die. There is no superiority when it comes to that.

 

Going back to the another thread of 'why Jesus died for our sins'. You think that it is fair that a murderer such as Hitler, will die, just like Martin Luther King, Jr? No difference. Then what is to stop someone from doing whatever they want other than the consequences of immediate law enforcement?

 

But I think it is quite counterproductive to "have faith in other people" and at the same time say they are going to burn for all eternity in hell because they don't think like you do.

 

Or, to think that everybody is just going to die.

 

It's more like "have pity for other people" but you are better than them because you are part of the god circle and they aren't.

 

How can anyone be 'better' than another person if God loves all people equally?

[Outcast]

Religion provides a convenient, external context to velcro yourself into, without requiring the constant exhaustive questioning and moral relativism of being responsible of constructing your own moral context from which to view the world.

 

I am sick. to death. of the assumption that to be religious is to be a brainless automaton. I know a theoretical physicist who came to the idea of God via physics. That a person believes in God does not mean the person accepts every tenet his particular church decides to feed him without question. It's as annoying, disgusting, and frustrating as when the misogynists say 'all women are bitches', damnit.

 

And I'm not going off on you BO, you're not the first nor the only one to spout that particular bit of blather.

[barfool]

I wonder if that stems from a faith founded in fear? I've had people tell me (friends, people I've interviewed for stories) that their altar call was based more in the fear of dying and going to hell without being reconciled with God, rather than because it was a desire first and foremost to know and love him – being scared into belief, as I understand it.

 

I had some weird church experiences. Once a pastor had a doll tied to the end of a stick, set it on fire and professed that that is what will happen to us if we did not believe in god etc.

 

For me religion seemed to be a combination of fear of dying and the unknown and then the sense that if I believe things will go well and I'll be happy. The problem with "wanting a relationship with your creator" is that you already have to believe somewhat that there is a creator. I didn't see the world as a creation of any "higher power" and thus my call to religion was more about the fear etc.

 

You know this really has me wondering. If christianity did not have a hell and the devil and everlasting torture would there be so many christians?

[alphamale]

You know this really has me wondering. If christianity did not have a hell and the devil and everlasting torture would there be so many christians?

I don't know....maybe some dead people could report back and let us know.

[blind_otter]

I am sick. to death. of the assumption that to be religious is to be a brainless automaton. I know a theoretical physicist who came to the idea of God via physics. That a person believes in God does not mean the person accepts every tenet his particular church decides to feed him without question. It's as annoying, disgusting, and frustrating as when the misogynists say 'all women are bitches', damnit.

 

And I'm not going off on you BO, you're not the first nor the only one to spout that particular bit of blather.

 

I don't understand this. I didn't make this assertion, you did. Any organized religion has the external elements already in place, a creation story, a diety, an approved method of worship, religious observances, and a community to fit into involving others who share your beliefs.

 

When you operate outside the confines of an organized religion, you have none of these traditions in place. You must chose to forgoe them all or develop them for yourself.

[quankanne]

I had some weird church experiences. Once a pastor had a doll tied to the end of a stick, set it on fire and professed that that is what will happen to us if we did not believe in god etc.

 

ugh ... what a disturbed individual. I still think the best way to model "what" God is is through love. Everyone understands that to some degree, be it the absence or presence it has on a person. It's subjective, but universal. Setting a doll aflame isn't. You cannot identify or grasp "hell" from that if there's no real point of reference. IMHO, setting that doll afire just goes to show the preacher's lack of understanding of his audience and their faith. *shudder*

 

I didn't see the world as a creation of any "higher power" and thus my call to religion was more about the fear etc.

 

I'm truly sorry to hear that, because there's a much better way of introducing people to Christ/God/religious faith.

 

You know this really has me wondering. If christianity did not have a hell and the devil and everlasting torture would there be so many christians?

 

for every Christian "scared to God," there are so many more people to view him more favorably by the positive fruits they see. I've heard from different people who are amazed and impressed by Christians who do what they do out of their strong love for God. One of my girlfriends was raised Catholic but now professes atheism, just has no use for God. But she just loves how Mother Teresa gave up her life to serve others through Christ. I mean this girl is amazed and impressed by the idea that someone would do this their whole life. And from what I've read, M. Teresa had her doubts, her "dark night of the soul" about what she was doing, yet she still did it. So, in a long-winded answer, yeah, there'd still be a good number of Christians who embrace their faith because they came to it positively. It's mostly the fundamentalists who place emphasis on the fires of hell, you'd bettter be saved or else kind of embracement of Christianity.

[Admiral Thrawn]

I had some weird church experiences. Once a pastor had a doll tied to the end of a stick, set it on fire and professed that that is what will happen to us if we did not believe in god etc.

 

And this turned you off I assume, or was a factor in turning you off?

 

For me religion seemed to be a combination of fear of dying and the unknown and then the sense that if I believe things will go well and I'll be happy. The problem with "wanting a relationship with your creator" is that you already have to believe somewhat that there is a creator. I didn't see the world as a creation of any "higher power" and thus my call to religion was more about the fear etc.

 

Because of the science courses you took?

 

You know this really has me wondering. If christianity did not have a hell and the devil and everlasting torture would there be so many christians?

 

People receive Jesus Christ because of love, and a hunger to know more about God, and the things of God. If I did not perceive Jesus loved me, or God loved me, I would not have accepted Him, and neither would my mom, or anyone else that I know. So, it is no suprise to me, if you think that God is demanding something from you, which you are unable to deliver, and will throw you in hell because of it - that is not reflective of the God of unconditional love as portrayed in the Bible. What is God demanding of you? Just yourself, your heart not your money, your faith, or anything else because God loves you and hopes to win your heart trough love and prove that He loves you.

 

Jesus died for your sins because He loves you, now you just have to give your life to God. This goes for resentment006 too, and anyone here.

[quankanne]

Because of the science courses you took?

 

sounds more like the bad witness she was given of God and Jesus. "You're gonna rot in hell if you don't do as I say, because God says so" versus "God loves you, no matter what you do. Period." No science involved here, unless, of course, you want to take the pyrotechnics into account. :p

 

people are not pulled away from a relationship with God because of science, but because they don't feel they've got a vested interested in that relationship. How many times have you heard "Why would God even care for me, much less love me?" or "I can't see, therefore I shouldn't believe" or even "I don't want to told what to do by anyone."

[alphamale]

people are not pulled away from a relationship with God because of science, but because they don't feel they've got a vested interested in that relationship. How many times have you heard "Why would God even care for me, much less love me?" or "I can't see, therefore I shouldn't believe" or even "I don't want to told what to do by anyone."

well QUANK if God really does exist he must have quite an odd sense of humour. In addition, I think i'd give him a below average rating on his performance in running the universe so far...

[Admiral Thrawn]

well QUANK if God really does exist he must have quite an odd sense of humour. In addition, I think i'd give him a below average rating on his performance in running the universe so far...

 

Hey, He's keeping the Black Holes out of this solar system, dont complain about how He's managing the universe.

[blind_otter]

Hey, He's keeping the Black Holes out of this solar system, dont complain about how He's managing the universe.

 

Wait,......... what?

[Admiral Thrawn]

Because of the science courses you took?

 

sounds more like the bad witness she was given of God and Jesus. "You're gonna rot in hell if you don't do as I say, because God says so" versus "God loves you, no matter what you do. Period." No science involved here, unless, of course, you want to take the pyrotechnics into account. :p

 

people are not pulled away from a relationship with God because of science, but because they don't feel they've got a vested interested in that relationship. How many times have you heard "Why would God even care for me, much less love me?" or "I can't see, therefore I shouldn't believe" or even "I don't want to told what to do by anyone."

 

She has said she had a personal faith in God independent from the Baptist presentation. People may still reject the type of God that is being presented, and have their own conception of who God is.

 

I was under the impression her science and religion courses had a negative influence on whatever relationship she attempted to have with God. I was just curious then, whether it was the science courses, or if she felt God was not listening to answering her prayers when she did attempt to communicate with Him or pray to Him.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Wait,......... what?

 

A black hole could suck each and every planet out of orbit. A large comet could put this place out of orbit. If the Universe had bad management, the sun may be sucked up in an approaching Black Hole. In this regard, science has discovered many fascinating and scary things about the universe.