Science and Religion

[flavius]

I have a brother-in-law who is a bit of a genius. Slightly eccentric, too, true to his ilk. One Easter Sunday, to the surprise of all, he decided that Jesus did after all exist, did in fact rise from the dead, and was in every way, the Lord.

 

Next morning he (a federal judge) went in to the office and immediately announced to his peers that he was no longer an agnostic, but was now a Christian. Immediately, Peer #1 gasped and said "But what about evolution, Andrew? You cannot possibly believe [the whole Adam & Eve thing] can you?"

 

Andrew paused and said, "Sir, if you cut down a tree and examine the cross-section of the trunk, what will you see?"

 

"Annual rings, of course," said Peer #1. "So what?"

 

"And from what did Eve pick the fruit that she ate?" pressed weird Judge Andrew.

 

"A tree, I am told. And your point?" demanded his peer.

 

"So," says Andrew, "the rings tell the story. God is eternal, not temporal. When God created all things, he created the present, the future, the past, and the rings. I see nothing there to trouble me."

 

(The rhyme was pure accident, in case you wondered.)

 

So, is my B-N-L on firm rational ground or not?

[Bogun]

"So," says Andrew, "the rings tell the story. God is eternal, not temporal. When God created all things, he created the present, the future, the past, and the rings. I see nothing there to trouble me."

If he created the future as well, why'd he s*** himself when adam disobeyed him and ate the apple? Huh? Wouldnt adam have just been following the script? And why did god get pissed at the people around noah and decide to slaughter everyone, if they were only following his plan?

 

This judge is anything but rational. Sounds like he's losing his marbles to be honest.

[quankanne]

If he created the future as well, why'd he s*** himself when adam disobeyed him and ate the apple? Huh? Wouldnt adam have just been following the script? And why did god get pissed at the people around noah and decide to slaughter everyone, if they were only following his plan?

 

he doesn't create our responses, just understands that we have choice to behave as we want. Adam had the choice to not eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, as did Eve; their banishment was part of the "three strikes you're out" program, though in reality, it was only one strike they could bat ...

 

same with the Great Flood: It was a matter of saying, "here are the choices, here are the consequences of those choices." Much in the way you go to WalMart and see signs posted everywhere saying that shoplifters will be prosecuted. You have the choice to steal their merchandise, but you cannot say you weren't warned of the consequencese, because they were posted prominently. Same with believing in a Creator. There are rules you understand that you must live your life by to achieve your goal of Heaven. He wants you there and you want you there, but along the way, he understands that you must make choices that decide your final outcome. Ultimately, it's up to you to claim the prize, he's done his part to see that you win.

[HotCaliGirl]

I agree that it doesn't make sense to try to put religion through a scientific filter and try to compare or provide scientific explanations...I think it is more of a blind faith than coming to 'understand" a concept...reminds me of people who try to explain how jesus walked on water, parting of the seas and other things that are impossible to explain scientifically..so you can't bring one element into the other to rationalize it, unless ur faith is based on the ability to duplicate the events in a lab.

[alphamale]

...I think it is more of a blind faith than coming to 'understand" a concept....

Well HCG...if ALL humans operated on "blind faith" then we'd all still be living in caves and hunting buffaloes with spears and wearing animal hides for clothing. People need to question everything, and I mean everything. A few hundred yrs ago everyone believed that people will never be able to fly. Well HCG, someone questioned that belief and now we're all part of the jet set

[HotCaliGirl]

I know what you mean alphamale...i just think that those who DO question it in a scientific sense, there's no way they could believe, so I think those who do believe have to believe in a total blind way...if the church told them tomorrow that the earth is in the center of the universe, I guarantee the believers would buy that, as long as it came out of the Pope or some figure they worship and volunteer to give credit as knowing more than them.

[alphamale]

...if the church told them tomorrow that the earth is in the center of the universe, I guarantee the believers would buy that, as long as it came out of the Pope or some figure they worship and volunteer to give credit as knowing more than them.

so what does that tell you about them as a group? that they are morons who don't think for themselves and want to be spoon-fed everything. the greatest achievements come when one does not follow the herd.

[HotCaliGirl]

so what does that tell you about them as a group? that they are morons who don't think for themselves and want to be spoon-fed everything. the greatest achievements come when one does not follow the herd.

No, I am only saying that it is a blind faith. They could just as well include top scientists, but they divide the two and don't try to rationalize their religious beliefs, or else like I said it wouldn't make sense. A religious scientist will believe the seas parted because they did and God parted them, but I don't think they try to apply their science knowledge to determine whether or not it happened. Faith in religion vs. evidence in science...so if a new bible passage was discovered saying that a volcano erupted in the desert and a saint was spewed out etc. I wouldn't attack anyone who believed it because it is faith that it happened, not rationalization of it. Einstein, one of the greatest scientists, was a practicing Jew who left Europe because of his religion, which means he believed the seas parted, but I don't think he applied any scientific formulas to prove its possibility of naturally happening.

[cal gal]

alpha - that is NOT a picture of you!!!!!

 

If it is, that is not how I pictured you to look??????

[alphamale]

Einstein, one of the greatest scientists, was a practicing Jew who left Europe because of his religion,

actually HCG...you are incorrect. Einstein was not a religious man until late in his life. He actually was an atheist when he was young and renounced religion. He left Europe because Jews were being persecuted and he was technically a Jew even though he did not practice. I think it was in his last 10 or 15 yrs of life that he embraced Judiasm and started to believe in God, blah blabh blah....

[HotCaliGirl]

oh I see...my bad AM...but still there was a time when he was both a scientist and a religious man and I doubt he applied his science to determine or rationalize his religious faith...

[blind_otter]

actually HCG...you are incorrect. Einstein was not a religious man until late in his life. He actually was an atheist when he was young and renounced religion. He left Europe because Jews were being persecuted and he was technically a Jew even though he did not practice. I think it was in his last 10 or 15 yrs of life that he embraced Judiasm and started to believe in God, blah blabh blah....

 

David Cross (a la Mr. Show on HBO) has a hilarious bit about how you can be an athiest and a Jew. You know, if you passed through a Jewish vagina to be born, you are a Jew. They save you up for later in case they need you.

[alphamale]

David Cross (a la Mr. Show on HBO) has a hilarious bit about how you can be an athiest and a Jew. You know, if you passed through a Jewish vagina to be born, you are a Jew. They save you up for later in case they need you.

being a Jew is a state of mind and gives you lifetime membership to quite an elite country club

[HotCaliGirl]

being a Jew is a state of mind and gives you lifetime membership to quite an elite country club

Then let's all convert...there will be world peace!

[quankanne]

I know what you mean alphamale...i just think that those who DO question it in a scientific sense, there's no way they could believe, so I think those who do believe have to believe in a total blind way...if the church told them tomorrow that the earth is in the center of the universe, I guarantee the believers would buy that, as long as it came out of the Pope or some figure they worship and volunteer to give credit as knowing more than them.

 

boy, you and alpha must think you're surrounded by a world of mindless boobs because some folks choose not to leave behind what you you perceive as nonsensical beliefs to opt for a state of scientific truth based in disbelief and disdain.

 

if either of you were part of a group who professed religion or spirituality, you'd come to understand that most of these folks do not follow along blindly, but struggle with reconciling what they see and know based on empirical evidence and science with what they sense spiritually. There are millions of Catholics out there who don't agree with Church teaching about birth control, the death penalty, abortion, euthanasia and a lot of other issues, but they still consider themselves in good standing with the Church. And I imagine it's the same with people from other spiritual backgrounds. Being spiritual doesn't automatically give man all the answers, because he's still a mortal and therefore subject to wanting more "proof" for his belief.

 

don't be so quick to look down your noses at people who understand things from a spiritual viewpoint – despite your lack of faith or the presence of theirs, they're having to deal with issues much in the same way you do but have that added option of faith.

[alphamale]

There are millions of Catholics out there who don't agree with Church teaching about birth control, the death penalty, abortion, euthanasia and a lot of other issues, but they still consider themselves in good standing with the Church.

Unfortunately the Catholic Church does not consider them to be members in good standing....

 

don't be so quick to look down your noses at people who understand things from a spiritual viewpoint –

you give me some solid evidence that god exists and religion is valid then I'll be the first in line to sign up

[HotCaliGirl]

quankanne, sometimes I use the wrong words to express my thoughts...when I say "blindly believe" it is not meant as looking down at anyone, I used Einstein as an example of someone who was both a scientist and a believer and he is not dumb in any way. If someone knocks somebody down for their religion because it cannot be proven scientifically, my point is that it doesn't have to be or else it would imply that a religious event such as the parting of the seas never took place, but instead someone who believes must believe "blindly" - bad choice of word...maybe I should say faithfully, rather than having to provide evidence like a CSI investigation to prove it scientifically...

 

hope that makes more sense. Yes, there are people who believe that think it can be scientifically proven and yes there are people who don't believe because they think (right or wrong is not the point here) it can't be proven scientifically, but I think people should believe based on faith alone, because if they are saying that god did this and that, that's above science and it doesn't make sense to try to prove what he does scientifically....and I would think it is more difficult to struggle with faith, since yes doubts do come in and there's no lab to run to to get answers or test things out, so no I am not looking down at anyone by any means...In fact I am trying to get answers myself and started a thread asking why jesus died for our sins (still haven't found a sastisfactory answer).

 

Ok, so like with all that said...what happens when there is scientific evidence that contradicts religious "facts?" like the age of the earth, etc. Who gets to make a satisfactory religious explanation for all to follow?

[quankanne]

thanks for clarifying your point, HCG, I see what you mean by your statement. A lot of people (believers and non-believers alike) think that when someone embraces spirituality, they check their brains in at the door, but as you point out, there comes a time when a spiritual person questions faith when presented with physical proof that X occured. A true believer understands the answer lies somewhere in the middle, where you accept that empirical evidence, realize there is a greater force than himself out there and are happy to credit it thusly. Someone like me (or Moose) understands that there's room for evolution in our creeds, that it falls into the natural line of things, but we first give credit to God for getting this particular chain of dominoes moving!

 

In fact I am trying to get answers myself and started a thread asking why jesus died for our sins (still haven't found a sastisfactory answer).

 

A Christian will tell you that he died for our sins so that we wouldn't have to pay the price of our sin, that we would be reconciled with God. I'll go one step further by saying he did it out of pure love for us. He didn't have to do this, he didn't have to live as a human, he could have claimed his "powers" as the Son of God, but love led him to his sacrifice, so that we would not be subject to spiritual death. Kinda like how parents give up their wants and desires to ensure that their kids don't have to do without. I cannot tell you the number of mommies I've known who will go without new clothes or shoes or things that she likes because if she did buy for herself, she'd be denying her children something they needed. Bad analogy, but it's the closest to that kind of sacrifice that Jesus made on our behalf.

 

you give me some solid evidence that god exists and religion is valid then I'll be the first in line to sign up

 

faith isn't about proof, but rather a call that you respond to. What evidence I present might not meet a non-believer's criteria, nor should it. It's a visceral thing, period.

[alphamale]

faith isn't about proof,

yeah, well for me it is....I don't want to waste my time, energy and resources believing in something that does not exist or is invalid. Do you understand that?

[quankanne]

yeah, well for me it is....I don't want to waste my time, energy and resources believing in something that does not exist or is invalid. Do you understand that?

 

oddly enough, I do. You want it there in front of you, where you can see it, smell it, touch it, taste it before you'll accept it. Otherwise, why bother, right?

 

of course, the apostle Thomas leaned this way – "let me stick my fingers in his wounds, and then I'll believe Jesus has been resurrected." In the end, though, faith conquered him and he went on to be a marvelous evangelist, carrying the Word to India.

[HokeyReligions]

I disagree, strongly. I don't think either cancels the other out. But I think that they are two TOTALLY different disciplines that require totally different academic processes and that put the burden of proof on entirely different types of things.

 

I object to this impetus to make two mutually exclusive data sets somehow equitable, as if saying that they discuss different things is somehow an insult? As if to say that scientific rigour and philosophical exploration are different somehow makes one less than?

 

IMO religion(s) explore inner space with a depth and vigor that science does not allow, and science explores the outer spaces of the physical world. There are equations and experiments that through the scientific process require repetition to be credible. Sprituality requires no proof, only faith.

 

One is NOT better than the other. One does NOT quash the other. They simply center on different sets of principles.

 

To me, that's cool. Everybody wins.

 

Go back and read my post. I did not say that one cancels out the other. You misread my statement.

[HokeyReligions]

I am someone you describe above. And yes, I do think that there is life on other planets. Given the vastness of the Universe, there would have to be.

 

Whether it is intelligent life or not is an open question. It is certainly possible. I am certain that if there is another intelligent life form out there, they are not visiting us, however. From what I understand about physics such a thing is impossible. The distances are too great for one thing.

 

I don't believe in ghosts. Or psychics. Or energy signals from the dead. I don't believe in Bigfoot, or the Loch Ness Monster. I don't believe in remote viewing. I have never met another atheist who believes these things, either. Most people I have met who do believe these things aren't Christians, though. But, I have met some Christians who do, which I find odd myself.

 

Suppose intelligent life were discovered on another planet and the name of their species was "god" just as we call ourselves "human". "God" is a word to describe a divine being - we accept that word as descriptive of one thing. As for physics - what is that? Mankind's limited understanding of the world and universe and how it works. Perhaps the generally accepted principle of God is not complete. Maybe God is an alien. That theory has been around forever in a effort for non-believers to explain "God"

[HokeyReligions]

I know what you mean alphamale...i just think that those who DO question it in a scientific sense, there's no way they could believe, so I think those who do believe have to believe in a total blind way...if the church told them tomorrow that the earth is in the center of the universe, I guarantee the believers would buy that, as long as it came out of the Pope or some figure they worship and volunteer to give credit as knowing more than them.

 

I know many Christians who believe and worship God and also study science. Their belief is that God gave them the ability to learn and understand and make progress. They believe that their surgeons hands are guided by God. That God gave mankind the ability to engineer infrastructure and put people into space. God gave mankind the choice to follow Him or discard Him. There are scientists who are also Christian, or Jewish, or Muslim or..... and their science is not faulty because they believe in a higher being. They believe their very ability TO question was God-given. That's why I say that one does not cancel out the other.

[HokeyReligions]

you give me some solid evidence that god exists and religion is valid then I'll be the first in line to sign up

 

It's not up to another human to give you evidence, it's up to you if you want to accept the teachings and evidence around you as valid proof of God. God has proven Himself to billions of people and it was/is up to each individual person if they want to accept the evidence presented to them (be it scientific in origin or historical teachings and tradition) as proof of God.

 

Many Christians have expressed the view that non-believers either have not accepted the same proofs they have, or have denied the proofs outright - but they still see all the proof they need for themselves.

 

Just as one person in a relationship cannot change the other, neither can one person change another's belief , or non-belief, in God. Unless that person wants to change and accepts the advice or evidence presented to them.