I'm afraid that if I call her it will only push her further away

[Becoming]

don't expect her to call you. i don't know whether she is willing to give you another chance or not but i do know that from what you've posted, she has no reason to let you back into her life unless you show her that you've changed and want her back more than anything in the world. you need to cross the space between you.

 

 

You keep bewailing the fact that she hasn't called you, but you don't call her even though she keeps opening the door.

 

It sounds like you were embarrassed to bare your inner life with her, as though you "bared your a$$" to use your words (a universal symbol of shame/embarrassment). But did you bare your soul's desire for her? You've done some of the work of self-revelation, but not the whole shebang, probably because you're too scared of rejection (like everyone else on the planet). But nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

You've ventured about 3/4 of the way, but it was only in revealing your own pain, it seems. Have you really heard the pain behind her anger (a defense mechanism to keep her from experiencing any more from you)? And have you sought to care for her in her pain? She may not let you for awhile, but it's there, and you have to address her on that deep hurt level, which means setting your own pain aside in order to love.

 

You sense that you're going to have to love despite the pain of being left in some of your posts, but then seem unsure, ask others what to do, and they say back off. Maybe they are right, I dunno. Only you can know for sure, but you can only know this out of your heart and soul--NOT your head, but your gut.

 

I'm gonna say something now you may not want to hear now: It seems like you can't get past your own pain to even see hers. Have you ministered to her pain, sat with it, listened to her tell it to you without being defensive or doormatty but really comforted her by telling her what her pain makes you feel (sad, regretful, hurt too, etc.) This is letting her pain have its being in your relationship instead of just being hers to deal with on her own. If you're so wrapped up in your own, there's no space for hers. Of course the opposite is also true, but there's a reason why she keeps the door open on your marriage. She wants you to come make it all better in this emotional way, not in car repairs. This is why she hasn't found her own place big enough to move her things into. This is why she may have found another. Have you asked for the opportunity to restore what's broken by ministering to her pain?

 

It seems like you want to have her without doing any of the work to love her as who she is--someone hurting and in need of love she had hoped to get from her husband. But her H did his own thing without consideration of her feelings a lot of the time. Has this really changed? He may have cleaned up his moral act, but is he still so closed in sharing what's really going on with him--not just in actions but in words that tell what the actions mean--that he expects others to be mindreaders who give him what he wants (which no one knows, of course) and until they do, he's not going to risk anything. She may be doing the same thing, of course. But the ball is in your court to take the initiative for healing this marriage, and you don't.

 

Instead, she's the one who takes the initiative, serving you the ball, and you don't hit it back, perhaps because you're waiting for everyone else to tell you what to do. If you want to play tennis, hit it back. If you just enjoy her skirt riding up as she serves the ball, then don't. But if she's the one who makes emotional overtures (however slight!), baring herself while you stay clad in your emotional suit, you've still got pornography going on, only it's emotional pornography where she's expected to strip while you stay distanced and clothed. And this doesn't indicate real change at a deep gut level.

 

I've said some things that may be presumptuous and downright wrong. We don't know because we haven't been privy to your private conversations. Just consider the possibility.

 

Call her and tell her how you feel for HER (not about what she did to you in leaving) and ask her for the honor of dating her to see if it's possible to get back together. Ask her to dinner. If she says yes, show up with a single rose. Ask her what's been going on in her life and listen just like you would a date. Take the lead, but ask her what she would like. "Do you want to come by the house for coffee or shall I take you home?" Then you're gonna have to watch to read her signals. If you can't, then ask: "Would it be ok to kiss you? or should we call it a night? May I call you?" Then you know instead of spending all this time wondering what's going on. Any time she gives you the come closer signal take it. If you think she might be telling you to back off but aren't sure, ask her if that is indeed what she's saying.

 

If she says no she doesn't want to date, then tell her that not knowing what's going on in this relationship is killing you and that you need to end it and move on. Ask her to please come get her things by thus and such a date, the cats? whatever . .. and to contact you please through your lawyer.

 

But you need to step up and take the lead for making something happen instead of beating yourself up for past stupidity and getting so caught up in wallowing in your pain that you can't see anything else. She's been opening the door, peeking in to see if it's possible, and you haven't even noticed. This hurts her to the point where she has to go away to lick her wounds, kick herself for trying, etc. But then she can't quite let it go without one more try . . .

 

Sorry for long post. I've said all I can.

[cygny]

great post, Becoming!

 

xill--take Becoming's post to heart--

 

the only thing i might suggest differently is to not to ask her if its possible to reconcile over the phone--just ask her for the honor of taking her to dinner, then ask her if you can continue to date her for that purpose of seeing whether you can reconcile when you are face to face, and after you have 'bared your soul', showed her how you have changed, and that you will do anything (and that part better be true). perhaps you take her to dinner, talk about how you've changed, then afterwards go to your place where you 'bare your soul' and ask for another chance. it may be quite emotional, is why.

 

because until you have talked to her and showed her, she has no reason to say yes.

[Becoming]

the only thing i might suggest differently is to not to ask her if its possible to reconcile over the phone--just ask her for the honor of taking her to dinner, then ask her if you can continue to date her for that purpose of seeing whether you can reconcile when you are face to face, . . . because until you have talked to her and showed her, she has no reason to say yes.

 

 

Yes--what Cygny suggests here is better!

 

I think you've got to give it one more all-out try--unless you really do want to stay fortressed away from anymore pain . . . and love with whomever for the rest of your life.

 

At least after you've really given it your all, you'll know instead of forever wondering even if the divorce does go through.

 

And please check out http://www.marriagebuilders.com. This has really helped our marriage, and it's soooooo much stronger for our having separated for awhile and then gotten back together. It's been 25 years now and better than ever. I'm looking forward to 25+ more, and I never would have believed that possible 10 years ago when we were where you are.

[Xillr8ng]

Wow...where did you all get your degrees!!!Thank you for the extra effort...really...Theres a lot to take in and I must say before even finshing it all, I grabbed the phone and left a message on her cell saying I "was in the mood for Demarco's italian(fav spot)and i knew it was a busy day on Friday's but if not today then maybe next week."(I know she will not return my call she never does,but on the outside chance she does I'll let you know).I sent the pictures she took while she was here and asked me to email them to her.I did and asked that she please let me know if they arrived.NOTHING...No response....Back to the silent treatment like the month prior to the shocking lunch date.I sent a card saying thanks for lunch.Might arrive today maybe tomorrow,but I can bet the earth stops rotating before she returns a response.That is why I posted before that I was maybe supposed to do or say something during lunch.I'm a guy...My thinking was geared to cherrish the precious time together and not ruin it with heavy words.So here I am,at this point with only the ability to email or send a letter to express these items that you described.I have one card on it's way ,one phone message reguarding lunch and one Email asking confirmation of pictures that I sent.I feel like I've hit the ball yet there is no one on the other side of the net.With NO response to any of these volleys I must conclude that she was probably only confirming the reason why she left through lunch or snooping ,who knows.It makes no sense to call three times in a row til she got through to ask for lunch and then .SULLLAMMMM!!! after lunchtime-The door gets closed???.I would absolutely Love the opportunity to use everything you all have suggested with a dinner and all.I think your ideas are AWESOME but I sit here outside a steel door and I had already accepted her decision to part ways after a month of NC on either side.and Now this.....To be honest with you all,I'm getting angry for the first time through all of this.I have not gotten a straight answer or any answer from her yet.The MC has been on the table for two weeks now and still no decision from her.Hasn't said no ,hasn't said yes.I'm locked outside again and I don't understand women's reasoning at all.WTF..She took NOTHING of hers away from the house when she was here.She cried the entire time she was home.She acted like we were having a great time together.She hugged me and made it count. And then ................SILENT ..NO RESPONSE ...and NO REMORSE...let the buzzards get the rest .

[cygny]

nah you've got to leave a message that says you have something terribly important to discuss with her and would be honored and grateful if she would allow you to take her to dinner or at least return your phone call.

 

from what i know, you're being too hard on her and i believe not putting yourself in her shoes. after all you are the one who filed for the D. you are the one who boozed and was addicted to porn and brought up the divorce rants. you drove her away and she is afraid to let you back in for fear that this is all a temporary show.

 

you can't expect her to stop the D now until she's heard you out.

 

put yourself in her place for a minute or two. try to look at this from her perspective. that's a skill you need to have in marriage anyway.

[Xillr8ng]

from what i know, you're being too hard on her and i believe not putting yourself in her shoes. after all you are the one who filed for the D. you are the one who boozed and was addicted to porn and brought up the divorce rants. you drove her away and she is afraid to let you back in for fear that this is all a temporary show..

 

Taken to heart......What's up?Have you been talking to her?

Her exact words a while back were"things will go back to the same"funny you should say.The fact is my track record is fairly decent at 5 months,remember never for 5 days.So you are saying that even though I withdrew my petition and cancelled it,that I am still to blame for this divorce?...That I still bare the burden for filing?

[cygny]

yes.

 

but also that you withdrew the petition is new info for me. but see , its a half-step like Becoming has been trying to explain. it wasn't accompanied by this talk we are suggesting you try.

 

you need to put everything together in a package for her--the 5 months of changed behavior, the withdrawing of the petition, and you should have a marriage counselor already in mind when you talk to her-- and lay it all out for her together as a plan, not writ in stone but as a foundation for you to start dating and courting her all over again, from ground zero, making no assumptions.

 

it will be action, consistent action and nothing left out, that will win her over, combined with the emotional piece that Becoming described--that part is critical.

[Xillr8ng]

ok...understood....I was thinking about the bare soul thingy....I wrote her a letter today..It took me a while so hold down the laughter and ribbings please.. Send it or don't:

 

To my wife suzi

 

WHERE YOU USED TO BE

 

 

Where you used to be

in this world,there is a hole.

Where you used to sleep,

a bed that's bitter cold.

 

Where you used to walk

there is a trail of your smell.

Where you would talk,

I wish I'd listened to the stories you would tell.

 

Where you used to sit

on the couch and at the end.

I look to see you, my missing friend.

 

Why ....Oh why,

did I not realise then,

that you were unhappy and at your end?

 

Where you used to cry

was hidden from my eyes.

Stains remain with the evidence of your tries.

 

Where you used to be

for so long by my side.

So weak and full of anger each time you swallowed pride.

 

Why .....Oh why,

could I not simply see,

that soon I could not say "You&I,Us,or WE".

 

Where you used to be

I walk here every day.

My tears appear in every room,

I'm too tired to wipe them away.

 

Where you used to try

to get a little of my affection,

is where I ponder my wrongs and cry with each disection.

 

Why ....Oh why,

did I not hear,

your whispers for help in my ear?

 

Where you used to love,

is a man left in wait.

Can you ever love him again is the debate.

 

Where you used to wonder

if this man could ever change,

is not a question but a fact of this mind that's been rearanged.

 

.....And I am ashamed

that I promised to make you happy.

.....Happy is where you used to be,

and I failed you completely...

 

Where you used to be,

I would willingly beg to see.

the smallest chance for you to forgive me.

 

Where we used to talk

and held love for each other above all,

is where I hold the hope that one day you will call.

 

and my dream in this life

is to say sorry to my wife

and to mend things i've done both big and small.

 

And we can love once again

like we said to the end.

and I can remember when...It's where we used to be.....

 

 

 

Mark Messner

[cygny]

wow xill, i don't know what she will do with it, but it actually made tears come to my eyes.

 

if she won't go out with you or answer your call, then you'll have to send her something like this. but put it together with a letter that tells her how you've changed, the MC thing, and lays out a plan of action for courtship--not just going back to the marriage right away--just ask her if she can allow you that much. and tell her how beautiful she is.

 

good luck!

[Xillr8ng]

Thank you very much...I would rather not send this letter anyway,too mushy and wimpy ....sissymary stuff....,so let's hope she returns the call.Anyway thnx for the compliment as opposed to laughing or shooting it down.It'll be hidden from the very light of day and or destroyed if I can avoid it. I will keep you up to date and again my sincerest thanks.

[cygny]

no don't destroy it. give it to her. what do you mean?

that mushy stuff is what you need to give her!

 

i meant to give it to her in person if possible!

[Xillr8ng]

Somehow I knew you were going to say that...LOL...go figure...I'll keep it as a last resort...I'll try the other ideas you all suggested ...Dinner thingy and courting and Mc and all.It's like Fort Knox getting in ya know.She shut her phone off ,imagine that.If it wasnt for running into her that day ,I never wouldve been able to do lunch I'll bet.As she wouldn't return calls and or call...I will keep trying. thnx Doc,Do you take cash credit or check?

[cygny]

nah i just want to know that it all turned out. give it to her when you see her don't keep it as a last resort. but if she won't talk to you then send it to her along with the rest.

 

i think she's trying to be strong and get through this without weakening. so you have to show her the whole shebang to convince her you're for real and worth trusting again.

 

is going to see her out of the question? or engineering another run-in?

[Xillr8ng]

I have went to see her ,it is very awkward.and there were times her car was there but no answer at the door.I am at the mercy of her hiding.A runnin would likely only be if her car had trouble again.Why is it that most say that the dumper hates weakness and tears and emotion?and yet I feel like this is where I'm headed.The "oh please hear my changes and see that I love you more than life" game.Wouldn't a simple card every now and then help.Ya know like a funny card and nothing but "I miss you terribly" written in it?.I dunno... I suppose I could guess allday long what she's thinking.O.K. though...I'm gonna work on a written MC and plan for possible dating.I'll have a rough draft on your desk ASAP...lol

[Becoming]

FABULOUS POEM! YEAH! :bunny:

 

What on earth do you mean you're not going to send it? Honey, this is what every woman wants to hear! If you send her this in the mail and she doesn't call, there is no hope.

 

I agree with C about a whole plan package. But let her know it's open to her input as well.

 

I think I'd send the poem in the mail. It could really hurt if she says something insensitive in person, and it sounds like you think this is risky for you. If she doesn't call after getting this, you're right: she's shut down behind a steel wall.

 

If you ever get to go out with her again, have lunch, see her, whatever, you better grab the opportunity because she does shut you out, huh? You can wait until after you have a good time, but before you say goodbye you've got to lay it all on the line.

[Xillr8ng]

If you ever get to go out with her again, have lunch, see her, whatever, you better grab the opportunity because she does shut you out, huh? You can wait until after you have a good time, but before you say goodbye you've got to lay it all on the line.

 

Very good point...this is one thing I have avoided...afraid of hearing the dreaded"I'm soory I used to love you" line..but it needs to be said or I will always be in the dark even after the dust settles.Send the poem eh?....I think I would have to send it certified as I would never know for sure it arrived...And you believe that after this letter hits her hands and there is no call,it's OVER.....I would agree....I should send it after the weekend I spose. Thnx Bunches ...all of you. Mark

[cygny]

or you could email it all. i believe time is of the essence. don't delay.

 

no the short cards with little notes won't cut it. it's like a tiny impersonal bandaid when your leg's been amputated.

[Xillr8ng]

OUCH!!!!!....but see email will not notify me wther she got it...I dont want to guess the rest of my life wether she recieved it...certified mail might help me sleep

[cygny]

why don't you hire a courier and send some flowers along?

 

i believe there are certain instances that require begging and yours is one of them. not in an undignified way but she has got to be convinced that you are for real and this is not just another BS attempt to screw with her. it's the part in women that respond to the scene in 'officer and a gentleman"--you know where richard gere goes and gets the girl. it's the heroic part in a guy that goes after what he wants in a strong way. begging isn't the right word but it has to do with all-out effort.

 

i cannot say how she will respond for sure, i am just going on what you have told me but you know her better than anyone.

 

she needs to get this BEFORE valentines day. not after. something will harden in her otherwise.

[Xillr8ng]

Should I mention that it will by last time reaching out? or just wait again?.

[cygny]

tell you are willing to do anything to make this work, that you want her input, that she doesn't have to make a final decision to reconcile or doesn't even have to withdraw her petition right away, all she has to do is give you a chance to court her, to date her again, to see if it's possible and go on to marriage counselling---but if she doesn't want to open the door a little and doesn't respond at all (give her a time limit--like a week to think it over), that you will respect her wishes and get the divorce over as quickly and painlessly as possible, and in a loving way and that you will be so sorry and wish her the best.

[Xillr8ng]

Here's the letter I wrote to go with the poem...proofread please and also am I to set a time limit on it or just a time limit in my head?

 

If there is any hope in you that we can ever be together again,please hear my plea....

I am not asking for a final decsion to reconcile or for you to withdraw your petition for divorce. I am asking for the honor of courting you to date occasionaly and or dinner to see if it is possible to repair our love for one another.If this is not possible ,I will respect your wishes and will try to get the divorce over as quickly and painlessly as possible.This poem attached was written for you.Please read it when you recall my shortcomings and maybe it will comfort you to know that I am truly sorry that I failed you as a freind and as a husband.Please consider my offer and my attention to be willing to sacrifice anything for a chance to be with the woman I love.

[Becoming]

why don't you hire a courier and send some flowers along?

 

i believe there are certain instances that require begging and yours is one of them. not in an undignified way but she has got to be convinced that you are for real and this is not just another BS attempt to screw with her. it's the part in women that respond to the scene in 'officer and a gentleman"--you know where richard gere goes and gets the girl. it's the heroic part in a guy that goes after what he wants in a strong way. begging isn't the right word but it has to do with all-out effort.

 

i cannot say how she will respond for sure, i am just going on what you have told me but you know her better than anyone.

 

she needs to get this BEFORE valentines day. not after. something will harden in her otherwise.

 

 

Yes! C is right on with this! Excellent example with Officer and Gentleman, Cyg! If you don't know what she's talking about, watch the movie or watch it again.

 

If the courier could sing, you'd have it all--flowers, song, letter, and poem.

 

I like the letter except I'd reverse husband and friend or delete friend altogether.

 

But definitely send it ASAP. Really, what do you have to lose? We are all foolish in love; isn't that God's way, too?

 

Go for it!

[cygny]

Here's the letter I wrote to go with the poem...proofread please and also am I to set a time limit on it or just a time limit in my head?

 

If there is any hope in you that we can ever be together again,please hear my plea....

I am not asking for a final decsion to reconcile or for you to withdraw your petition for divorce. I am asking for the honor of courting you to date ocasionaly and or dinner to see if it is possible to repair our love for one another.If this is not possible ,I will respect your wishes and will try to get the divorce over as quickly and painlessly as possible.This poem attached was written for you.Please read it when you recall my shortcomings and maybe it will comfort you to know that I am truly sorry that I failed you as a freind and as a husband.Please consider my offer and my attention to be willing to sacrifice anything for a chance to be with the woman I love.

 

 

how about a little more elaboration, here's a draft expanded version--of how far you need to go with this to touch her soul--

 

Suzi, my beautiful wife, please grant me a few moments to hear me out....

 

I know that I have hurt you terribly and you are numb. You have every right to refuse to talk to me. But when you left me I was devastated. I decided right then in a nano second that I was never going back to being the man that hurt you so terribly over such a long time. For five months now I have been clean of the porn and the booze that was causing me to fail you in so many ways. I know that more changes are needed and I want to go to marriage counselling to change whatever else I need to, ANYTHING, in order to make myself a worthy and loving husband. I love you more than anything and always will.

 

I am not asking you for a final decision to reconcile or for you to withdraw your petition for divorce. I know that you are hurt and numb and can’t go there now. I am simply asking for the honor of taking you to dinner, to see if it is possible to repair our love for one another. What I want is to court you, to start all over with you, and to go to marriage counselling with you. I want you to feel free to stop at any time you are uncomfortable, but I truly want to give this all my effort, more than anything in the world. Because I love you so much, I will respect your wishes either way and if you do not want to see me for dinner at all or respond to me in any way, I will try to get the divorce over as quickly and painlessly as possible, in a loving way. This poem attached was written for you. Please read it when you recall my shortcomings and maybe it will comfort you to know that I am truly sorry that I failed you as a freind and as a husband. Please consider my offer and my attention to be willing to sacrifice anything for a chance to be with the woman I love. I will wait a week to hear from you and I will be praying with all my might that you will call.

[Xillr8ng]

Man you make mine sound like a letter from the IRS...LOL