At a loss as to what else to try - seperation ???

[tweldy]

I am at a loss as to what I should do. I have been married 9 years and have two children ages 4 and 2 - almost 5 and 3. My wife is a stay at home mom. I would say we split the chores around 40/60, although when she's feeling down and out its more like 100/0. I take the kids a lot on the weekends, do the grocery shopping with them, take them to park, etc. Anything I can do to give her a break I try to do.

 

I do almost all of the kitchen cleaning and I love to cook, but more often than not my wife wants to cook to have a break from the kids. On the weekends, particularly after the kids go to bed, I cook lots of things for the week so that there's food around the house.

 

The problems I'm having are:

1) Our sex life is almost dead. We have sex once or, on a really good month, twice. I give her back massages, foot rubs, etc. and have learned not to pressure her (at her behest) for intimacy. However, it may be better for her, but it doesn't change anything.

2) I can't have a bad day or express frustration with any difficultly outside the home. No, seriously, if I express frustration with something at work my wife comes back with how my bad day at work ruins her day. Or, whatever difficult I have I learn pales in comparison to the horrors my wife had endures with the kids during the day.

3) I have all sorts of things I need to improve, but by god I dare not suggest any changes in the way my wife does things or I get to hear how everything is a result of some mistake I made or that life is brutally unfair to my wife and I should kick in more around the house, etc.... For example, my wife gripes me out about leaning too much on her for socialization, but by the time I've gotten the kids to bed, cleaned the kitchen, paid the bills, and tended the other chores that are 'mine', its well past midnight. I have no friends or support network anymore because I have no time for them because of my wife's demands.

4) When I make a mistake it invariable ruins my wife's entire day. Just the other day, I put the wine glass with the pint glasses instead of back in the box. I did this because they needed to dry out after I washed them and I just didn't have time to put them away in the morning. When my wife discovered the glasses in the wrong place she put them away and broken one in the process. It was a disaster and she couldn't get anything done that day because she had to spend the whole day keeping the kids out of the kitchen. I don't actually understand this because we have expensive, high quality tension gates that keep the kids out of the kitchen, unless you specifically let them in, but I dare not ask about this for supernova-esque outburst that will ensue.

 

Oh, and I go to work really early in the morning, lift weights at the gym to keep in shape, make pretty good money (right at six figures), and I get home by 4:30 every day to take over watching the kids and helping out around the house. I can't continue on this course and I have no idea what else I can do to make things work better. I can't talk with my wife about it and I am out of ways to keep this leaky ship afloat.

 

Should I deliver an ultimatum that we get counseling or if she doesn't comply should I get a separation? I am concerned about the well being of our children, but what kind of example do I set when I put myself in a situation where I start becoming miserable and fail to do anything about it? What does seperation mean anyways - is it a legal status? Do I just tell her I want a separation and get an apartment or does one generally talk to a lawyer or counselor about it and make arrangements? I'm sorry for this insanely lengthy post and thanks for putting up with my kvetching.

[justagirliegirl]

Hire a housekeeper.

 

Has your wife said what is bothering her? Being at home 24/7 with little kids can get pretty depressing. Really just imagining myself doing that makes me what to go postal.

 

Does she have anything to do? Anything fun hobbies or adult friends to talk to. Did she have a career? Is she interested in going back to work.

[tweldy]

She's currently a La Leche League leader. I've asked her about going back to work - if she was interested, but she really isn't. I talked to her about going back to school - I could arrange to be home earlier three days a week if she had M-W-F classes or we could get a baby sitter, etc; but she isn't interested yet. She likes to do research so I was hoping I could get her into working towards a graduate program, but no matter how much time I make for her or how much gentle nudging in that direction, it seems like it hits a wall. I think she'd do well with some counseling, but if I suggested it, I think she'd flip out. Actually if I talked to one of her mom friends maybe I could get them to suggest some of these things; certainly it would work better than me suggesting them.

[cygny]

i can hear your misery and frustration, but i'm not getting a sense of what emotional bond you two have, has your life together become all drudgery? do you ever have fun or laugh together? are all the negatives on her side or does she have complaints about you too?

 

if everything is as you say, i think there's just not enough love in your marriage. maybe it would be better to separate. yes that is a legal status and from then on your assets are calculated differently. get legal info in your own state for details.

[SoleMate]

First of all, my sympathies. You're putting a lot into your marriage and you feel that you're not getting a fair return. I understand your perspective totally. Marriage is a "deal" in my view - and each partner must live up to it for it to be satisfying and worthwhile. If you had been informed before marriage that you would end up like this, I doubt if you would have agreed to go ahead.

 

I advise against separation as your first major move. Separation has two meanings: it can be informal (with no legal paperwork) or formal. In some places (like New York State and I'm sure, a few foreign countries), legal separation for 1 year is a necessary first step in divorce. Informal gives you no protection, but does cost you extra money (apartment etc.) and might very well increase your workload and loneliness. Formal separation, unless engaged in as a step in a well-thought out marital reconciliation plan, is just a step down the road toward divorce. Your moving out would become the new issue that diverts attention from the actual problem that needs to be addressed. IMO, since you have young kids, divorce should be your last option, so let's not go there until and unless it becomes unavoidable.

 

It is possible that your marriage could be rebuilt into a mutually satisfying one. All things considered, would you be willing to choose a period of time - say 6 or 8 months - where you put EVERYTHING on the back burner and dedicate yourself to serious repair effort on your marriage? That's right, you let the house fall apart, kids watch lots of TV, job gets a lick and a promise, and every spare mental cycle or moment of the day gets put into marriage repair? It's a risk that only you can decide on. However, without this, the downward slide into divorce is near certain.

 

If you're interested, please check out the books of Dr. Harley Willard, who created the concepts of Love Bank, Love Busters, Policy of Joint Agreement, and delineated the 10 typical emotional needs a man and woman have in marriage. He's got the best info on what it takes to keep love alive. In a nutshell, to the extent that your W meets your needs for:

 

1. Sex

2. Recreational companionship

3. Attractive spouse

4. Domestic support

5. Admiration

 

(or whatever you personal, individual list may be)

 

you will feel love for her. If she consistently does a great job, you will be bonkers about her.

 

BTW, it's a two way street, and you also need to meet her needs. As much as you undoubtedly put into this partnership, it is possible that your efforts are mis-directed, if they do not address her most important needs. Her list probably resembles this:

 

1. Affection

2. Conversation

3. Financial support

4. Family commitment

5. Honesty and openness (sharing feelings)

 

If you make the effort to understand what you can do - not in addition, but INSTEAD of what you are now doing - that would make her the happiest, you have your best chance at her choosing to meet your needs better.

 

Last point: When you are working on fixing your marriage, you must not let her verbal blowback stop you from saying what needs to be said. Example:

 

I can't have a bad day or express frustration with any difficultly outside the home. No, seriously, if I express frustration with something at work my wife comes back with how my bad day at work ruins her day.

Let's see...you say something she doesn't like, then she says something you don't like, then suddenly you're stricken mute? Better to say that you choose not to communicate (because of the undoubted pain and resentment you feel when you do), rather than that you are unable. It is possible a counselor would help you break beyond this one issue. If you LITERALLY cannot talk to her, both of you will have a hard time meeting needs.

 

I was in your shoes, and I do wish that I had broken through my own fears about confrontation to really address our problems before it became too late.

 

Good luck, keep posting.

[Ladyjane14]

SoleMate said it all. I can't think of a thing to add....except maybe to read it TWICE.

[Becoming]

Adding to SoleMate's excellent post:

 

check out http://www.marriagebuilders.com You need to do something ASAP to save this marriage.

 

Once a week my H and I go out to eat and work on relationship issues that had our marriage right where you are when our kids were that age. We sit there with our laptop and talk about emotional needs and what they mean to us, etc.

 

You need to do something soon. Have you tried marriage counseling?

 

And it sounds like your wife may be depressed. No one who's not done it can even begin to imagine how exhausting having two small children is all day. You are definitely helping out a great deal, but this is a time that will completely sink your marriage unless you make it a priority.

 

Personally, I'm not cleaning house until my kids leave home. All it does anyway is make the dust mites mad. Something had to go, and it was either that or my sanity.

 

Seriously, both of you have got to move the marriage to priority status or your lovely kids are not going to have the lovely home that I think maybe your wife thinks she's supposed to have (to the detriment of her own sanity).

 

Keep posting, ok?

[dgiirl]

i have absolutuely nothing good to add. cept moral support, hire a maid!, and get counselling, either individual or marriage.

 

Also try to switch around chores so you both get a change in the routine by doing something different and you eliminate the feeling that you're doing everything and the other is not doing their fair share. When you see what the other side is doing, then you'll get a better understanding of who's putting work in where.

[tweldy]

Salient advice and sage insights, all. I thank you. In part, I feel a lot better having just vented about it - I really don't have any communication channels with my wife, nor do I really have a the support network of friends I had before having children. I think I've just been getting more and more frustrated and not been able to express it until it got overwhelming and all I could see was the bad stuff. I do need to find a way to have my marriage be a priority instead of an afterthought or a non-thought, I just need to figure out how to get there from here.

[tweldy]

SoleMate said:

Let's see...you say something she doesn't like, then she says something you don't like, then suddenly you're stricken mute?

 

You don't know how accurate this is. I thought about it for a while and then approached my wife after this kids went to bed to talk. She was busy on the computer arranging playdates and such for the kids and I basically asked to talk for a while. She indicated she was too busy with getting stuff done - it was shocking to realize that all this time my next reaction was to say okay, go back to housework, and grapple with the resultant negative feelings. Instead of doing that, I just softly said something to the effect of, "We rarely talk, and there's always stuff to do. I'm having a hard time dealing with our level of communication."

 

That was all it took. Why the hell did I slip into that pattern? I have been to counseling several times in the past to work on a variety of issues, especially when I was younger and really depressed. This is very much a depressed thought pattern, but I don't think I'm depressed right now. Worse yet, I realize I've been doing this for *years* now - failing to assert something like this when I get an initial rejection. It really seems like the root problem here.

 

I feel like I got much, much, much angrier that I needed to be and I'm having a real hard time coping with seriously thinking about seperation. Why did I let it get that far never pushing past the barrier of an initial negative response? I feel like I've been through a lot of counseling and it has worked well for some things and not so well for others. I think I need some sort of help/personal development, but I need to do something different that what I've done before. Does anyone have any experience with alternatives to couseling? Behavioral modification maybe?

 

Also, I'm feeling like I'm harboring a terrible secret in that I was this upset about things. I haven't told my wife the extent of my frustration and that I actually started thinking about things like seperation. I'm actually afraid to tell her how upset I was because I feel like I understand what the problem was and can work with it and it would only serve to frighten and distress her when she's in a vulnerable position (no job, housewife, out of workforce four years, etc.). I feel guilty, yet at the same time, I haven't *done* anything (like an affair or something) so should I keep it to myself - at least for now - or is that a fallacy?

[Becoming]

T--this is very insightful. I assume you talked, then? And that you now have hope?

 

It is interesting that you feel like you've been dishonest. In effect, you have been. I think I'd confess it by accepting full responsibility for the problem and saying you want to be honest with her about what's going on with you. There's hardly a wife alive who wouldn't love hearing those words. You can preface all this with assurances that there's no need for alarm, but that you want to work on your marriage by talking through some things.

 

Get on http://www.marriagebuilders.com and do an emotional needs inventory and share it with one another. This was eye-opening in our marriage. My H and I go out once a week and just talk about us, work through some things on that site, and it has done wonders for our marriage. Ask her to do something like this and arrange for babysitting. It may be $$ you don't have (seem little ones come with poverty), but it's cheaper than divorce.

 

You may also want to change therapists or take some assertiveness training.

 

Hats off to you, T, for taking the initiative to get what you want!

[Ladyjane14]

Here's an article for you which suggest that as long as your positive interactions outnumber your negative ones by a ratio of at least 5:1....you're good to go.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19940301-000022.html

 

If that holds true....then get in there and speak your mind Tweldy!