Maybe its not my business but the woman has no idea who he really is

[Delectable]

Once again....

 

Why don't you make plans to hang out with her AND her bf so he will be aware of A. your friendship B. that he has been busted and then C. tell him to come clean or you will let her know?

 

Put everything on the table while you are standing beside her as her friend...?

 

Why not?

 

What reason would you NOT have for doing this?

[strangeway]

Im sorry, I believe I already said that I was going to do it at lunch, which is in about 20 or so minutes, to better see what I am dealing with here:

 

 

I dont have a problem with doing what you said:

Originally Posted by Delectable

Why don't you make plans to hang out with her AND her bf so he will be aware of A. your friendship B. that he has been busted and then C. tell him to come clean or you will let her know?

 

It is a good plan, but I think I am going to also mention to him that I have plans to hang out with her, and see how that fares.....

 

You all have 20 or so minutes to bring up a better solution....

[SueBee3490]

Now that is TOTALLY untrue. People cheat generally when one person isn't holding up the other side of the relationship or the relationship is going dull. There are of course, like you say, some that just want it, but when a man or woman both find someone that can satisfy their needs, there IS no need to cheat, but I agree, cheating is usually just a cowards way of breaking up with a woman or man. I mean they could just break up but they choose to play both sides.

 

You really don't understand what cheating is do you? From what I gather that you write, you think cheating is the fault of the "cheatee". Such as you accuse the cheatee of not holding up the other side of the relationship - wrong again. The "cheater" has a problem within THEMSELVES - not the person they are cheating on. I went to 4 counselors who all told me the same thing. It was nothing with me or our relationship - he would cheat on whoever he was with. It's HIS problem. If there was a problem in our relationship, he should have let me in on it but he didn't - he is selfish and a coward.

 

If a woman cheats on her BF with me, that ISN'T my fault. Simalirly (that has to be a spelling error),

 

If you know she has a bf, then you shouldn't be helping to contribute to the problem. Find a woman who isn't in a relationship or married. As you said there are billions out there, so surely you can find ONE who is not attached to anyone.

 

if my girlfriend cheats on me, I don't get angry because all it means to me is that I didn't do my job properly and continued to give her the fun that she had in the beginning of the relationship.

 

Again you are assuming it is not the cheater's fault for cheating but the innocent party. You know in my relationships, everything was not always rosy and fun. We had arguments and had to work through kids, jobs, and life in general. It can get stressful and hectic sometimes but that doesn't mean that I look at my bf/husband and say "you're not providing me with all that fun anymore so I guess I'll go drag some other poor man into this relationship and maybe he will be married or seeing someone but I won't care as long as we are having fun. Then we'll be happy when we are both lying, deceitful, and sneaking around behind our bf's/gf's/wife's/husband's backs. But you know, all I'm worried about is my fun and happiness." Also all relationships in the beginning are in that honeymoon stage when you act just right and everything is perfect because you are only showing your best sides to each other. It's when you are together longer, see the other person sick, mad, angry, hurt, etc, that your love for them deepens and you go into the next stage of love which is what I thought I had with my bf. I guess he just wanted the high from a new relationship all the time. Well he can have it - I'd rather develop that deeper love with someone when I know he will be there for me after seeing me sick, angry, etc.

 

There's millions upon billions out there. Inversly (another error) if a woman said to me that she was breaking up with me for another man, she has helped me because I now know of course that I can improve and become better.

 

Again are you saying if a woman cheated on you, then it is your fault? That by her breaking up with you, you will try to improve yourself and become better so maybe the next one won't cheat on you? It wouldn't be you with the problem, it would be the one doing the cheating.

[MrsHellFire]

"Hate to break this to you hyakku - but kissing this girl on the neck is CHEATING - that is PROOF!"

 

LOL, no it's not. Proof is something you CAN PROVE. And you can't prove that without a picture. Sorry.

[blind_otter]

I've cheated and been cheated on. The fault never lies 100% with anyone.

[loony]

But there is a certain amount of "picking up" you have to do in the world to meet new people. I mean you have to go out and MEET people in order to form relationships (be it friendly or sexually).

I read posts from people who learn these pickup stuff and I'm sorry to tell you, but the majority of these people are not out for the perfect long-term relationship. And even if they are looking for a long-term relationship, the only criteria seems to find a HB10 who willingly gives him blow jobs 24/7. You are certainly not going to tell me that these techniques are merely taught for meeting women and holding hands with them.

 

Now to the morals thing, what you are saying is that your morals and ethics are better than mine. In your eyes sure, but you are doing the same thing you are accusing me of, justifying that your morals are right. I personally feel that they ARE right.

Your morals are corrupted by these pickup gurus.

 

If a woman cheats on her BF with me, that ISN'T my fault.

So you don't feel any kind of guilt towards her boyfriend?

 

Simalirly (that has to be a spelling error), if my girlfriend cheats on me, I don't get angry because all it means to me is that I didn't do my job properly and continued to give her the fun that she had in the beginning of the relationship.

Awesome reaction. I wish everybody would react as calm and collected as you do when he learns that his girlfriend cheated on him. Tell me more about if you ever have been in love and it has happened to you. This is such a hypothetical case and based on one of these rationalization that the pickup artists teach their students in order to shut off their conscience.

 

And yes there are another 3 billion women out there, its not like when we all lived in a few tribes and if you lost 1 there was only another 10 women to pick from. Get real, there's 6 billion people out there, there are a TON of women, to be perfectly honest, everyone is unique, but that doesn't mean that there aren't people that can't be better fitting to your tastes or another woman out there. Those stuck in the scarcity mentality often think that it is cold hearted to say, "Well that lady didn't work out, time to go for one of the other 2,999,999,999 out there". BUT ITS TRUTH.

Find someone who shares your hobbies and interest, is in your prefered age range, is attracted to you and you attracted to her, meets your standards in regard to her intellect, lives within your home zone, does not have a boyfriend, possesses other attractive features like kindness, faithfullness, patience, mental stability (which is not as important as you might think), sense of humour, honesty, independence, yadda, yadda, yadda, you get the drift. What a realistic attitude to believe that a good partner is just waiting for you at the next corner and that you can find the right person just anytime.

 

Using someone? If I am telling 100% truth how am I USING anyone? And again, if you say I lack emotion for not thinking in a scarcity mentality, then damn right I do, I'm not going to whine and cry over one person when there are 3 billion (and expected to be 11billion in a few decades, thats even better, more people to choose from).

If you don't whine or cry when someone you're with decides to break up with you, you're with the wrong person. If you are not able to mourn that someone left you, you've never seen the uniqueness of this person, but that is necessary if you want to love someone. Otherwise people like your parents, friends, whoever is close to you, would be as easily replaceable.

[Delectable]

It is a good plan, but I think I am going to also mention to him that I have plans to hang out with her, and see how that fares.....

 

Doing that for HIS reaction does not help her...if that is truly your motive you should catch him off guard and just make plans with her and pull him aside and tell him to come clean or you are about to...

 

Going to lunch and giving him any kind of ultimatum will only damage your trust factor with her...you will be another woman that he has secrets with...if your concern is about her - keep it focused on her

 

Also if he is so physical etc. use a camera phone to sneek a pic for proof...

 

anyways it's interesting that you didn't disclose what happened at lunch...

[hyakku]

I read posts from people who learn these pickup stuff and I'm sorry to tell you, but the majority of these people are not out for the perfect long-term relationship. And even if they are looking for a long-term relationship, the only criteria seems to find a HB10 who willingly gives him blow jobs 24/7. You are certainly not going to tell me that these techniques are merely taught for meeting women and holding hands with them.

 

 

Your morals are corrupted by these pickup gurus.

 

 

So you don't feel any kind of guilt towards her boyfriend?

 

 

Awesome reaction. I wish everybody would react as calm and collected as you do when he learns that his girlfriend cheated on him. Tell me more about if you ever have been in love and it has happened to you. This is such a hypothetical case and based on one of these rationalization that the pickup artists teach their students in order to shut off their conscience.

 

 

Find someone who shares your hobbies and interest, is in your prefered age range, is attracted to you and you attracted to her, meets your standards in regard to her intellect, lives within your home zone, does not have a boyfriend, possesses other attractive features like kindness, faithfullness, patience, mental stability (which is not as important as you might think), sense of humour, honesty, independence, yadda, yadda, yadda, you get the drift. What a realistic attitude to believe that a good partner is just waiting for you at the next corner and that you can find the right person just anytime.

 

 

If you don't whine or cry when someone you're with decides to break up with you, you're with the wrong person. If you are not able to mourn that someone left you, you've never seen the uniqueness of this person, but that is necessary if you want to love someone. Otherwise people like your parents, friends, whoever is close to you, would be as easily replaceable.

 

Well then you are talking to the wrong people first off. Have you ever listened or even read some of this material? That's like me commenting on a book I have never read, how do you know what's in these? I can personally testament to the fact that in ALL these programs (David DeAngelo: Mastery Mystery Method whatever), they stress that great relationships are the best and they are incredibly valuable.

 

LOL you tell me my morals are corrupted by these guys. Its the same as you telling me my morals are corrupted by confucius or are corrupted from Lao Tzu, just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it corrupt, get over yourself.

 

If a woman cheats on me with her boyfriend, no, that isn't my problem, I don't focus on other guys, because its in my nature to be flirtatious and have fun with women, its something I have always done, why should I stop because some girl has a boyfriend. This is my reality, if she chooses to step into it she has to deal with my mannerisms or cease interaction with me, plain and simple.

 

What you are really telling me from alot of your posts is that I should be broken up and emotionally distraught if a relationship goes sour. IT HAPPENS, I'M GOING TO GET OVER IT. The best way to get over someone is to get with another, moping around does NOTHING for you, its counter productive, and my path in life is too always be going forward, no matter how slow I have to go, this is my path, and if you say I should take stops I will have to tell you this is simply something I won't accept. I have control over myself, I can either:

 

A. Mope around and be weak.

 

or

 

B. Be strong go have more fun, and meet some other great people.

 

 

I see YOU possess this scarcity mentality. Finding someone who meets that criteria is easy in a pool of 3 BILLION. I don't think you understand how much THREE BILLION IS. Some people have this romantic view that there is only one right person out there for us, but the statistics and evolution proves this is wrong. Statistically speaking, no one can ever say that there is one person out there for everyone because no one human has dated the other half (in this case 3 billion) in gender to determine if all of them was wrong for them and only on ewas right. Evolutionary, when we used to live in tribes, there's no way that we had time to go, "Well even if I have a chance to mate with this lady I need to date the others to find out which one fits my personality better." We didn't have TIME. We needed to survive and create offspring.

 

There is some bit of sadness whenever anything negative in a relationship happens of course, but I AM NOT going to freak out. I have in the past felt as if a parent or close friend died I wouldn't be able to go on. But now I realize that I can and will, its a natural part of life, I can't be a person who stops in my tracks and backtracks because I lose someone close to me, if anything that spurs me to go further, and that's in any walk of life.

 

 

To a4a, yea I think we should because personally I do some of this with women who are just friends, its just fun and playful, nothing more, of course if my gf didn't like it I would stop out of respect.

 

To Suebee now I'm not trying to offend but you probably will take offense to what I'm about to say.

 

You really don't understand what cheating is do you? From what I gather that you write, you think cheating is the fault of the "cheatee". Such as you accuse the cheatee of not holding up the other side of the relationship - wrong again. The "cheater" has a problem within THEMSELVES - not the person they are cheating on. I went to 4 counselors who all told me the same thing. It was nothing with me or our relationship - he would cheat on whoever he was with. It's HIS problem. If there was a problem in our relationship, he should have let me in on it but he didn't - he is selfish and a coward.

 

Again I said GENERALLY not all the time, but at the same time there's VERY few cases where the cheatee has been a perfect angel at the same time. The cheater does not ALWAYS have a problem within themselves besides cowardice (or in some cases fear of the other partner). That is YOUR relationship that you used as an example, not everyones. And again, how in the world do they know what he "would" have done if he had not have been with you? Do they have some type of machine. What I'm saying is its foolish to say what someone may or may not have done, sure you can say, "Well I described in detail what kind of guy he was" but you also described in BIAS detail, so either way they can't exactly say what he would or would not have done.

 

If you know she has a bf, then you shouldn't be helping to contribute to the problem. Find a woman who isn't in a relationship or married. As you said there are billions out there, so surely you can find ONE who is not attached to anyone.

 

I don't go out saying, "I wonder how many people I can break up today", I just meet people and it goes from there, but I look at all women as single until they tell me they aren't and of course I then will never push beyond the boundaries that I have established (which are incredibly high despite what you may think) until they actively seek out me, then I treat it as every other interaction I generally would.

 

 

Again I'm not saying its always the entire cheatee's fault, but they can CERTAINLY still learn, and that's what i choose to do instead of mope, I learn and become better, always moving forward, never looking back.

[loony]

Well then you are talking to the wrong people first off. Have you ever listened or even read some of this material? That's like me commenting on a book I have never read, how do you know what's in these? I can personally testament to the fact that in ALL these programs (David DeAngelo: Mastery Mystery Method whatever), they stress that great relationships are the best and they are incredibly valuable.

Yes, I did read some of this stuff. If I didn't know what was in these I wouldn't comment on them.

 

Mystery: Isn't this the guy who told his girlfriend to get a boobjob, taught her to give him oral sex any time he wanted, sent her working in a strip club and constantly whined because she didn't want to have threesomes? - Does this sufficiently demonstrate the seriousness of his outlook on relationships?

 

Ross Jeffries: The guy who teaches how to connect with a woman at a deeper level and advises guys to discover her inner hopes and dreams? - I find it very questionable to teach people these methods if they are only out for one night stands. He himself has no girlfriend, but seems to switch girls every other day.

 

I have yet to see guys post how they found the perfect girl for a relationship with the help of these methods. They are not out to find the perfect relationship; and also the only criteria they seem to apply when looking for a girl is the hotness factor.

 

The only thing these methods teach is how to get laid, preferably with a #10. These dolts wouldn't even know what to do with a relationship, because they don't understand that it's about two people and mutual respect and equal rights. You guys want to have it go your way and you use manipulation to get what you want - what a great basis for a relationship.

 

This is my reality, if she chooses to step into it she has to deal with my mannerisms or cease interaction with me, plain and simple.

It's really wonderful to see all these emancipated men stomp with their foot on the ground and insist that they are the prize ("you are the prize, not her") and that therefore the woman has to submit to their rule. I can see it clearly before my eyes, your leaders shouting, "And now let's go out and show these women who is stronger. These oppressors have long enough tried to emasculate us and turn us into dependent wimps who will kiss their butts. But no more! We'll show them who the boss is." It's really too funny. If one day you want a serious relationship I advice to reconsider your idea of a partnership. Women who are at men's beck and call tend not to be the smartest one.

 

What you are really telling me from alot of your posts is that I should be broken up and emotionally distraught if a relationship goes sour. IT HAPPENS, I'M GOING TO GET OVER IT. The best way to get over someone is to get with another, moping around does NOTHING for you, its counter productive, and my path in life is too always be going forward, no matter how slow I have to go, this is my path, and if you say I should take stops I will have to tell you this is simply something I won't accept.

I have noticed is that people who tend to go for the next distraction instead of facing the pain and trying to find the root of their problems are likely to repeat their mistakes.

 

Evolutionary, when we used to live in tribes, there's no way that we had time to go, "Well even if I have a chance to mate with this lady I need to date the others to find out which one fits my personality better." We didn't have TIME. We needed to survive and create offspring.

I wasn't aware that you still live in a cave.

 

I don't go out saying, "I wonder how many people I can break up today", I just meet people and it goes from there, but I look at all women as single until they tell me they aren't and of course I then will never push beyond the boundaries that I have established (which are incredibly high despite what you may think) until they actively seek out me, then I treat it as every other interaction I generally would.

Isn't there this guy who has a 'boyfriend destroyer technique' in his program? Some of your highly appreciated gurus teach that any woman, whether she is single or in a relationship, is game.

 

Every single of your posts smells of pickup philosophy - "It's my reality", "I can, because I have the stronger frame", "reframe the situation", "leave the woman better than you found her", etc. Few people in the past would have considered going after a woman who was in a relationship to be morally justified, but nowadays with the pickup gurus, everything that serves to satisfy your selfish needs has become acceptable.

[hyakku]

Yes, I did read some of this stuff. If I didn't know what was in these I wouldn't comment on them.

 

Mystery: Isn't this the guy who told his girlfriend to get a boobjob, taught her to give him oral sex any time he wanted, sent her working in a strip club and constantly whined because she didn't want to have threesomes? - Does this sufficiently demonstrate the seriousness of his outlook on relationships?

 

Ross Jeffries: The guy who teaches how to connect with a woman at a deeper level and advises guys to discover her inner hopes and dreams? - I find it very questionable to teach people these methods if they are only out for one night stands. He himself has no girlfriend, but seems to switch girls every other day.

 

I have yet to see guys post how they found the perfect girl for a relationship with the help of these methods. They are not out to find the perfect relationship; and also the only criteria they seem to apply when looking for a girl is the hotness factor.

 

The only thing these methods teach is how to get laid, preferably with a #10. These dolts wouldn't even know what to do with a relationship, because they don't understand that it's about two people and mutual respect and equal rights. You guys want to have it go your way and you use manipulation to get what you want - what a great basis for a relationship.

 

 

It's really wonderful to see all these emancipated men stomp with their foot on the ground and insist that they are the prize ("you are the prize, not her") and that therefore the woman has to submit to their rule. I can see it clearly before my eyes, your leaders shouting, "And now let's go out and show these women who is stronger. These oppressors have long enough tried to emasculate us and turn us into dependent wimps who will kiss their butts. But no more! We'll show them who the boss is." It's really too funny. If one day you want a serious relationship I advice to reconsider your idea of a partnership. Women who are at men's beck and call tend not to be the smartest one.

 

 

I have noticed is that people who tend to go for the next distraction instead of facing the pain and trying to find the root of their problems are likely to repeat their mistakes.

 

 

I wasn't aware that you still live in a cave.

 

 

Isn't there this guy who has a 'boyfriend destroyer technique' in his program? Some of your highly appreciated gurus teach that any woman, whether she is single or in a relationship, is game.

 

Every single of your posts smells of pickup philosophy - "It's my reality", "I can, because I have the stronger frame", "reframe the situation", "leave the woman better than you found her", etc. Few people in the past would have considered going after a woman who was in a relationship to be morally justified, but nowadays with the pickup gurus, everything that serves to satisfy your selfish needs has become acceptable.

 

 

What in God's name are you talking about? The only tiem I have ever heard of mystery dealing with anything in a strip club was when he dated an exotic dancer. Who the hell would whine over a threesome if one girl didn't want to do it? There's millions more that are willing too, that would be contradictory to what he's trying to state. Actually, I can tell you what mystery HAS said, and he says almost verbatim, "I'm not just going to teach you how to get a womans number or even just how to get laid more. Because personally if a woman is worth seeking out and getting her number to talk to her, then I feel that she's obviously worth the time to form a relationship with, at least I think so."

 

Ross Jeffries, no idea.

 

I have yet to see guys post how they found the perfect girl for a relationship with the help of these methods. They are not out to find the perfect relationship; and also the only criteria they seem to apply when looking for a girl is the hotness factor.

 

At the time of me listening/reading this crap:

 

David X is engaged if I recall (if not married).

 

David D was in a relationship and had been for a few months, don't know if he is or isn't.

 

Mystery was also in a relationship and had been for a few months.

 

I've seen this work in people's lives whoa re married, again you HAVEN'T read their stuff, probably heard of it or something, but none of it teaches you to go abuse womenand walk over them.

 

Ironic how they wouldn't know what to do with a relationship yet all these man ARE in one. You really need to not comment on things you have NO idea about. All of them, ALL of them, stress that having ONE good relationship is alot better then dating around, so again, I can tell you haven't read or heard ANY of the materials.

 

 

It's really wonderful to see all these emancipated men stomp with their foot on the ground and insist that they are the prize ("you are the prize, not her") and that therefore the woman has to submit to their rule. I can see it clearly before my eyes, your leaders shouting, "And now let's go out and show these women who is stronger. These oppressors have long enough tried to emasculate us and turn us into dependent wimps who will kiss their butts. But no more! We'll show them who the boss is." It's really too funny. If one day you want a serious relationship I advice to reconsider your idea of a partnership. Women who are at men's beck and call tend not to be the smartest one.

 

Proving even further you really have no idea what you're talking about. I AM a catch, so is she. But most men only think, "Wow I can't screw this one up she's REALLY amazing" and they start idealizing a woman before they have even talked to her. I mean half the men are afraid to approach her because they are insulted by her before they even say a word. No one has EVER said, that I can recall, that a woman must submit to their rule. Heh my leaders, sure if you want to call them that, its like calling Confucius or Lao Tzu my leaders, again I learn from all walks of life. The sad thing is though the last part of your little quote HAS happened, not women turning men into wimps, society has. I mean browse through these boards you see the most PATHETIC things that only a society built on, "You must pamper a woman and have her at a pedastel higher than you in order to begin a relationship with her", can get these men to do such crazy things. Expensive dinners the first date? Talking about politics and religion when you first meet her? Doing BORING STUFF? Why would you BORE a woman into doing something? I mean let's use LOGIC guys, if the other million guys took her to an expensive restaurant, DON'T YOU THINK SHE'S GOING TO GET TIRED OF EXPENSIVE F*CKING RESTAURANTS?

 

I have noticed is that people who tend to go for the next distraction instead of facing the pain and trying to find the root of their problems are likely to repeat their mistakes.

 

This makes no sense. Again I reframe this instead of, "What did I do wrong? What happened?" I instead reframe as, "Ok How can I improve X area in my life? And How can I make sure not to get a woman who is inclined to cheat, but I do have to realize that I can improve too". And then go out and DO IT. You know why? Because it constantly has me growing and positive. All you are saying is that I should become pessimistic when something happens. I am in control of my emotions (for the most part), that way I don't have to worry about freaking out and becoming stagnant. I don't know if you have a path in life but I have mine, so nothing can throw me off from it. Nothing.

 

I wasn't aware that you still live in a cave.

 

There's something called genetics. Genes are passed down since the very first human being till now. Obviously some mentalities were passed down. Example: Cave Man saw a lion. He realizes that the lion has teeth and claws and it could kill him. He then associated a Lion with a panther, cheetah, and jaguar, all of which look similar. His snap judgement is therefore he should stay away from all of them to avoid harm or possible death.

 

Fast Forward to today, we often make MANY snap judgements on people and our environments and associate them with things we have prior knowledge about. The list goes on this is just an example. Point is these mentalities have been passed on.

 

Isn't there this guy who has a 'boyfriend destroyer technique' in his program? Some of your highly appreciated gurus teach that any woman, whether she is single or in a relationship, is game.

 

No.......

 

And although they are game (because if she wants to cheat she will), that doesn't mean all of us follow exactly what they say. You put it as though every word they issue forth from their mouth we accept as truth and integrate it into our system. Not at the very least. They even say themselves, "Some things you're going to like. Some things you won't. In time you are going to throw away the things you don't, keep what you like, and make a ton of your own". Thats how you learn, Imitate the Masters, Create Finer Distinctions, make a value system, Create Variations and improve on variations, and innovate. And I find that works in ANYTHING.

 

 

Every single of your posts smells of pickup philosophy - "It's my reality", "I can, because I have the stronger frame", "reframe the situation", "leave the woman better than you found her", etc. Few people in the past would have considered going after a woman who was in a relationship to be morally justified, but nowadays with the pickup gurus, everything that serves to satisfy your selfish needs has become acceptable.

 

1. It is my reality. Why would I live in someone elses? I was put her to be my own individual, so I will be my own individual.

 

2. This isn't a pickup philosphy. Its a fact of life. Whoever has the stronger belief system and will, they WILL come out dominate. But that's not what these guys teach that you have to totally own the woman. In fact if you read and listened you would hear that they need their own time as much as we do. Again, you can say anything and get away with it if you say it with enough authority, thats just a rule of life.

 

3. Why wouldn't I reframe a negative situation and make it positive? I don't know why you seem so hung up over feeling negative emotions, but hey that's your reality whatever floats your boat goes .

 

4. Your last one makes no sense. Should I leave a woman WORST then I found her? I should try to leave ANYONE I come across better than when I found them, in any interaction I should be trying to make people feel positive, not negative (though I must admit I don't all the time).

 

My selfish needs? Again, most guys don't go out searching for women who are in a relationship, but if the woman likes the guy for who he is because he is always flirting, etc., then this isn't his fault. If you read and listened to all their stuff again they stress you shouldn't have to go for other guy's women, they just say if the woman comes to you then its a normal interaction as usual.

 

Still I don't understand why you feel I should feel pessimistic so much.

[catgirl1927]

Can I just say, I find this discussion very interesting. I had no idea there were people out there teaching men how to act in relationships, I was only aware of all the self help crap geared to women. I personally find most of that stuff (like, The Rules) to be largely a load of crap. They basically present relationships as a big trick to "trap" a man, and encourage women to be something, anything other than themselves. I don't think them healthy at all. I'd be very interested in some links to online information about these pickup gurus. Sounds fascinating...

[hyakku]

Can I just say, I find this discussion very interesting. I had no idea there were people out there teaching men how to act in relationships, I was only aware of all the self help crap geared to women. I personally find most of that stuff (like, The Rules) to be largely a load of crap. They basically present relationships as a big trick to "trap" a man, and encourage women to be something, anything other than themselves. I don't think them healthy at all. I'd be very interested in some links to online information about these pickup gurus. Sounds fascinating...

 

Ironically the rules can be done on women and it works which is strange.

 

The guys self help is alot harder to find because you usually have to pay for it. But they are nothing like, "Use X line and treat woman like crap and you keep her". Most if it focuses on getting the guys confidence and innergame up, which most guys need, but its not just the confidence, its about being completely comfortable with yourself, and not letting society rule you. I remember I used to be real confident, but because of the way I was raised and society things weren't clicking so I realized that somet hings in the past that worked didn't make sense at all, and the things that should have worked didn't. I stumbled upon a webcomic forum where they had a subsection devoted to relationships, and the guys were giving the CRAZIEST advice, but when I started to realize what was going on, I picked up David D's work, and now am looking at mysteries, but after David D's Advanced/Mastery series, everything just clicked. Just boom, everything makes sense. Theres a bunch of research why both men and women act the way they do in relationships, how many men are afraid to approach women because when we used to live in tribes years ago, if a man approached the wrong woman he could be beaten, killed or exiled out of the tribe if it was a woman "belonging" to the tribal leader. As well the scarcity mentality also arose ou tof this time where we lived in tribs of around 50 people or so, and there being only (and this is being generous) like 10 women available, if the woman was able to communicate to the others that you weren't proper mating material, it was over, you couldn't have sex again in that tribe and therefore you wouldn't be able to replicate, the second most important thing for a human (the first being survival). There's also a book called sperm wars, here's a part of it that I know you will find interesting:

 

Sperm Wars

 

As was noted in the previous section, although a dominant chimpanzee may try to monopolize time with a female in estrous, most of the competition in this species is carried out at the level of the sperm. The reproductive tract inside a female chimpanzee becomes the battleground for a sperm war that takes place over the course of several days. Only one sperm among all of the billions within her vaginal tract and uterus can win the prize of fertilizing the egg. In fact, only a very small percentage of sperm, possibly as little as 1%, are even capable of fertilization; the rest of the sperm have an entirely different function. This other 99% of sperm consists of what are called blockers, or kamikaze sperm. Their function is to prevent the sperm of other males from reaching the egg. There appear to be at least two types of kamikaze sperm (Baker, 1996). Type A sperm block the passage of sperm that enter the female after they do. Type B sperm actually attack sperm that have been delivered prior to themselves. This sperm competition in chimpanzees has necessitated the evolution of testicles large enough to produce adequate amounts of sperm. This is why the testicles of chimpanzees are much larger than those of men.

 

The testicles of gorillas are relatively tiny compared to those of chimpanzees. This is because of the sexual monopoly that is obtained by a single silverback male gorilla over his harem of females. In this type of mating system sperm competition is almost non-existent. Human testicle size is somewhat proportionally larger than that of the gorilla. Nevertheless, the general similarity suggests that early hominid mating systems were of a polygynous nature similar to that of the gorilla, where you have a single sexually active male (Hrdy, 1988). Conversely, humans display a greatly reduced sexual dimorphism for body size as compared to the gorilla, suggesting that humans trended toward a greater degree of monogamy in the latter stages of our evolution. Because this shift toward monogamy occurred within the context of a larger social group, evolved behavior and physiology aimed at combating infidelity is part of our legacy as modern humans.

 

Baker (1996) discovered evidence that human male sexual psychology has evolved to respond to the prospect that his mate has been inseminated by another man during his absence. He found that the volume of sperm a man ejaculates while having sex with his partner is unrelated to how long it has been since he last had an ejaculation; the important variable is the length of time that has passed since he last had sex with his wife. The volume of sperm may be as much as three times that of normal if the man has been separated from his wife for a long period of time. If the men were in proximity of their wives during a similar period and were sexually abstinent, their subsequent ejaculate did not show the same rise in volume. Baker & Bellis (1993, 1995) also found that female orgasm plays a role in sperm competition. When a woman has an orgasm the uterus starts to contract rhythmically, causing sperm to be drawn into the cervix; a kind of vacuuming effect. If a woman has had intercourse with several men within a short period of time, the sperm of the man associated with her orgasm has a much higher probability of fertilizing her ovum than that of men whose copulation did not result in orgasm. When we couple this finding with Thornhill’s data, showing that women have more orgasms with symmetrical men than with less symmetrical men, and with the findings of Gangestad and Thornhill (1998), showing that women during the time of their ovulation show a preference for the scent from symmetrical men, we can see a connection between sperm competition and female mate choice.

 

Both sperm competition and female mate choice have been evoked to explain the unique anatomical distinction of the human species. Although among our closest living primate relatives, chimpanzees have the largest testicles, humans have the largest penis in terms of length and thickness (see Figure 5.4). Diamond (1992) provides the following anatomical data: In the gorilla the length of the erect penis measures 1 ¼ inches, in the orangutan it averages 1 ½ inches, in the chimpanzee it averages 3 inches, and in man it averages 5 inches in length. Advocates of the sperm competition theory argue that a longer penis provides sperm delivery closer to the cervix and gives sperm a head start in their competition with rivals. Advocates of the female choice theory would argue that ancestral hominid females, at least in part, selected males who could provide more vaginal and clitoral stimulation. In all probability, there is some interaction between both of these processes such that a thicker penis provides more clitoral stimulation and, hence, increases the likelihood of an orgasm that would facilitate delivery of sperm into the cervix. Post coital uterine examinations of women show that sperm retention is positively correlated with the women’s self-reported sexual satisfaction (Graham-Rowe, 1998). Phylogenetic comparisons also suggest that the breasts of human females have evolved as a result of sexual selection pressures

 

Again theres a ton more, but don't be fooled by people telling you that thye tell men to treat women poorly, lie, and not to get into relationships because they stress that women (and all people) should be treated well, to be honest in the relationship, and finding a good relationship is best. Again it can take a while but I mean there's no real need if your not a man are you lol?

[catgirl1927]

That is just hilarious. I'm not saying that the advice isn't valuable, I'm just giggling over guys reading about chimpanzee sperm. Says a good deal about my maturity level!

 

What's NOT funny is that instead of focusing on changing yourself and tricking guys, women would probably benefit a lot more from a good strong shot of self confidence. Maybe women should study the same things you are studying and stop trying to fit into what men want, and be themselves and be independent and be ok on their own, without a man. That's so important for esp young girls to learn, you do not need a man. You can be fine on your own.

[hyakku]

That is just hilarious. I'm not saying that the advice isn't valuable, I'm just giggling over guys reading about chimpanzee sperm. Says a good deal about my maturity level!

 

What's NOT funny is that instead of focusing on changing yourself and tricking guys, women would probably benefit a lot more from a good strong shot of self confidence. Maybe women should study the same things you are studying and stop trying to fit into what men want, and be themselves and be independent and be ok on their own, without a man. That's so important for esp young girls to learn, you do not need a man. You can be fine on your own.

 

Exactly, people in general need a shot of self confidence. But it is strange about how male sperm can actually "compete" inside of a woman, crazy.

[Delectable]

In all of this have you noticed she never told us how "lunch" went?

 

I really questioned her motives anyway...

[loony]

"I'm not just going to teach you how to get a womans number or even just how to get laid more. Because personally if a woman is worth seeking out and getting her number to talk to her, then I feel that she's obviously worth the time to form a relationship with, at least I think so."

Some people call everything that lasts longer than a night a relationship.

 

Ross Jeffries, no idea.

Are you sure you are informed about this stuff?

 

Ironic how they wouldn't know what to do with a relationship yet all these man ARE in one. You really need to not comment on things you have NO idea about. All of them, ALL of them, stress that having ONE good relationship is alot better then dating around, so again, I can tell you haven't read or heard ANY of the materials.

Yeah, sure. I will quote Neil Strauss: "The problem with being a pickup

artist is that there are concepts like sincerity, genuineness, trust, and connection that are important to women. And all the techniques that are so effective in beginning a relationship violate every principle necessary to

maintaining one."

 

Proving even further you really have no idea what you're talking about. I AM a catch, so is she. But most men only think, "Wow I can't screw this one up she's REALLY amazing" and they start idealizing a woman before they have even talked to her. I mean half the men are afraid to approach her because they are insulted by her before they even say a word. No one has EVER said, that I can recall, that a woman must submit to their rule.

You said: "This is my reality, if she chooses to step into it she has to deal with my mannerisms or cease interaction with me, plain and simple."

 

I personally think you sound like you have an excessive need to control things.

 

Talking about politics and religion when you first meet her? Doing BORING STUFF? Why would you BORE a woman into doing something? I mean let's use LOGIC guys, if the other million guys took her to an expensive restaurant, DON'T YOU THINK SHE'S GOING TO GET TIRED OF EXPENSIVE F*CKING RESTAURANTS?

Well, bribing her into liking you does seem like a bad idea. I'm starting to wonder though what kind of woman you are looking for if you think that she would get bored with talking about politics or religion. Also, what does it tell me about you? In my experience, the only people who felt the need to show me their humorous funny side where people who didn't have that much going on for them. There was no real connection, so they think they can make it up by entertaining me with jokes. I think a nice sense of humour is preferable in a long term mate, but it would surely not be sufficient for me to invest myself emotionally just because someone cracks some jokes (that I probably would not even find that amusing).

 

This makes no sense. Again I reframe this instead of, "What did I do wrong? What happened?" I instead reframe as, "Ok How can I improve X area in my life? And How can I make sure not to get a woman who is inclined to cheat, but I do have to realize that I can improve too". And then go out and DO IT. You know why? Because it constantly has me growing and positive. All you are saying is that I should become pessimistic when something happens. I am in control of my emotions (for the most part), that way I don't have to worry about freaking out and becoming stagnant. I don't know if you have a path in life but I have mine, so nothing can throw me off from it. Nothing.

First, I wasn't talking about the ending of the relationship, because the woman cheated. I just said the relationship was over. Second, I didn't say you were supposed to wallow in self-pity and castigate yourself for being a loser, because your relationship ended. What I said was, I do not understand how people can come to any kind of self-revelation about themselves and their relationship if they don't take time alone to think about these things.

 

Still I don't understand why you feel I should feel pessimistic so much.

I actually think this stuff they teach about inner game and personal growth to be interesting, but I just don't like the view on women they teach those guys.

[loony]

Can I just say, I find this discussion very interesting. I had no idea there were people out there teaching men how to act in relationships, I was only aware of all the self help crap geared to women. I personally find most of that stuff (like, The Rules) to be largely a load of crap. They basically present relationships as a big trick to "trap" a man, and encourage women to be something, anything other than themselves. I don't think them healthy at all. I'd be very interested in some links to online information about these pickup gurus. Sounds fascinating...

Google:

• David DeAngelo, Double your dating
  
• Ross Jeffries, Speed Seduction
  
• Mystery Method, they have a forum there full with guys who are out to pick up women and get laid, there's also a free chapter you can download about the different stages of the pick up process
  
• Thundercat seduction lair
  
• Bristol lair

Read: "The Game" by Neil Strauss, supposedly the best pickup artist in the community. The pickup gurus also offer free newsletters.

[ReluctantRomeo]

Again, you can say anything and get away with it if you say it with enough authority, thats just a rule of life.

 

Again, the fact that you haven't been in the real world shines through.

 

Come and work for me sometime... I can beat this philosophy out of you in just a couple of weeks

[hyakku]

1. Neil Strauss not. If anything I would probably say Mystery, and he does stress good relationships. I mean mystery actually takes time to get to know people and learn about them and talk about himself. Again, you have to look deeper than just the face value of alot of the guys who ARE just "trying to get laid". Hell I remember Mystery actually saying, "Are you just trying to get laid? Or are you trying to enrich your lifestyle?" He also says himself that it shouldn't be YOUR lifestyle, but just something to enrich your lifestyle.

 

 

Some people call everything that lasts longer than a night a relationship.

 

....congratulations? I mean I know what you mean but they actually say RELATIONSHIPS, thats why at the point of writing this post and when I was going through their materials, many were engaged or in Long term relationships.

 

Are you sure you are informed about this stuff?

 

Certainly, but I don't just hang out on the intarweb looking to read more, I actually go out with friends, socialize, and actually meet other people and women .

 

Yeah, sure. I will quote Neil Strauss: "The problem with being a pickup

artist is that there are concepts like sincerity, genuineness, trust, and connection that are important to women. And all the techniques that are so effective in beginning a relationship violate every principle necessary to

maintaining one."

 

And I can quote David DeAngelo:

 

(In Reference to relationships)

 

"Most people are selfish, and they say, "I'm not going to give more than I get." But instead of getting alot all they get is old and unhappy. I've found that its much better to give a ton and get alot back in return, not caring about the fact that I didn't get as much as I gave, than to give little or none and get back little or none.

 

Relationships aren't like investing. If you want alot get used to giving more. But its worth it in the end, because love and attention and humor and fun aren't like money. If you give them out you don't have less. You have MORE. Get it?"

 

And there are a ton of other quotes. Point is there are always going to be people that abuse their knowledge, you can't do much about them.

 

You said: "This is my reality, if she chooses to step into it she has to deal with my mannerisms or cease interaction with me, plain and simple."

 

I personally think you sound like you have an excessive need to control things.

 

No, there is no need because I am always in control of myself. This is the only thing that I can physically make stay in my control, and I am totally at peace with this fact. That is why if someone is entering my reality, and they are doing things I dislike and I let them know and they continue, then I cut off all interaction with them. Its simple as that, once I've let you know, "Hey you need to cut that out that aggravates me" and they keep doing it despite my request, then its time to cut em off. There's a ton of other people out there that will respect my wishes, why try to "reform" the person who won't? And its totally ok for them not to want to change, its their reality, thats why there's no sense in getting upset, just say, "Pleasure meeting you, gotta go".

 

Well, bribing her into liking you does seem like a bad idea. I'm starting to wonder though what kind of woman you are looking for if you think that she would get bored with talking about politics or religion. Also, what does it tell me about you? In my experience, the only people who felt the need to show me their humorous funny side where people who didn't have that much going on for them. There was no real connection, so they think they can make it up by entertaining me with jokes. I think a nice sense of humour is preferable in a long term mate, but it would surely not be sufficient for me to invest myself emotionally just because someone cracks some jokes (that I probably would not even find that amusing).

 

Sorry I should have made it more clear. Politics and religion are great and all, but you don't wanna talk about that your FIRST or second date, personally I don't think you should reallytalk about it until like your 8-10th date really when you know each other better. And humor is different from being funny. Funny is some clown who just loves to crack jokes, humor is using situational "humor", witty retorts, playful teasing, etc., and its never overdone.

 

 

First, I wasn't talking about the ending of the relationship, because the woman cheated. I just said the relationship was over. Second, I didn't say you were supposed to wallow in self-pity and castigate yourself for being a loser, because your relationship ended. What I said was, I do not understand how people can come to any kind of self-revelation about themselves and their relationship if they don't take time alone to think about these things.

 

Ah I understand now, then forgive me I didn't quite get that one. Yes I understand, I think we have almost come to agree without realizing it. I agree you should look inside yourself, but I don't ask what went wrong, I just ask how can I improve, and how can I find a better partner next time, so yea we basically agreed with each other heh >_<. Funny how things can go that way.

 

I actually think this stuff they teach about inner game and personal growth to be interesting, but I just don't like the view on women they teach those guys.

 

I can understand that because I mean some of those guys (like the quote you pointed out) are real just ass holes. But at the same time there are GREAT guys out there like David DeAngelo, Mystery, Rick, etc, that are all cool guys that respect women. How do you think David had women speakers at tons of his seminars? Not because he abused them. But at the same time it only takes one to ruin a good name right ?

 

I'm going to like these boards as long as there are people like you here, I appreciate you giving me a challenge (and teaching me at the same time ) . Thanks.

 

Again, the fact that you haven't been in the real world shines through.

 

Come and work for me sometime... I can beat this philosophy out of you in just a couple of weeks

 

I don't think so.

 

I mean have you ever realized that there are some people who seem to be able to get away with almost anything (be it with men, women, business, etc), because they felt THEIR beliefs were stronger, and they projected this in everything they did. Generally these people are...BOSSES, MANAGERS, CEOS, etc. Because they know that they can say anything as long as its done with enough authority, and there will be people who have lower "Value" (not value as in how much a person is worth, obviously they go for alot on ebay. I mean social value), who will obey. Ever notice when people walk into a room they almost instinctively look around to see, "Alright who's the leader, who's lower then me on the social chain, who's higher, etc?" It happens all the time, and the people who are higher, can get away with saying almost anything with enough authority. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

[ReluctantRomeo]

I mean have you ever realized that there are some people who seem to be able to get away with almost anything (be it with men, women, business, etc), because they felt THEIR beliefs were stronger, and they projected this in everything they did. Generally these people are...BOSSES, MANAGERS, CEOS, etc. Because they know that they can say anything as long as its done with enough authority, and there will be people who have lower "Value" (not value as in how much a person is worth, obviously they go for alot on ebay. I mean social value), who will obey. Ever notice when people walk into a room they almost instinctively look around to see, "Alright who's the leader, who's lower then me on the social chain, who's higher, etc?" It happens all the time, and the people who are higher, can get away with saying almost anything with enough authority.

 

You've correctly noticed an association, but I think you're mistaking cause and effect. Their self-belief and authority derives in large part from their success, not vice-versa.

 

There's a famous experiment in which a guy lectures students, expounding his views on extraterrestrial life. Afterwards half the group are told he is the university's leading professor on the subject, the other half are told he is the janitor who studied up on this in his spare time. Despite the fact that both experienced the same lecture (and crucially for your opinions, the same confidence), the first group were largely persuaded by his views, the second not.

 

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

Yup. Send us a postcard once you've done a couple of years in the real world

[loony]

And I can quote David DeAngelo:

 

(In Reference to relationships)

 

"Most people are selfish, and they say, "I'm not going to give more than I get." But instead of getting alot all they get is old and unhappy. I've found that its much better to give a ton and get alot back in return, not caring about the fact that I didn't get as much as I gave, than to give little or none and get back little or none.

 

Relationships aren't like investing. If you want alot get used to giving more. But its worth it in the end, because love and attention and humor and fun aren't like money. If you give them out you don't have less. You have MORE. Get it?"

I just have to answer this. Your great guy who is supposedly on your side is also writing as Christian Carter and has published this book "How to catch and keep him". I read this one and I read "Double your dating" and the passage that you just quoted is in BOTH books. And a lot of other techniques and methods are in both books.

 

That is why if someone is entering my reality, and they are doing things I dislike and I let them know and they continue, then I cut off all interaction with them. Its simple as that, once I've let you know, "Hey you need to cut that out that aggravates me" and they keep doing it despite my request, then its time to cut em off. There's a ton of other people out there that will respect my wishes, why try to "reform" the person who won't? And its totally ok for them not to want to change, its their reality, thats why there's no sense in getting upset, just say, "Pleasure meeting you, gotta go".

That's sounds like normal sound behavior, but for this I don't need to read a book and talk about "my reality".

 

Sorry I should have made it more clear. Politics and religion are great and all, but you don't wanna talk about that your FIRST or second date, personally I don't think you should reallytalk about it until like your 8-10th date really when you know each other better. And humor is different from being funny. Funny is some clown who just loves to crack jokes, humor is using situational "humor", witty retorts, playful teasing, etc., and its never overdone.

Well, if it works for you fine, but what you describe barely raises any kind of interest in me. I also don't perceive the kind of humour that is encouraged by your mentors to be genuine. It's always the same, "Neg her. Works fabulous with the chicks."

 

Ah I understand now, then forgive me I didn't quite get that one. Yes I understand, I think we have almost come to agree without realizing it. I agree you should look inside yourself, but I don't ask what went wrong, I just ask how can I improve, and how can I find a better partner next time, so yea we basically agreed with each other heh >_<. Funny how things can go that way.

We don't agree, because if you don't know what went wrong, how can you improve? If you don't know what mistakes you made, how do you know what to avoid in the future?

 

I mean have you ever realized that there are some people who seem to be able to get away with almost anything (be it with men, women, business, etc), because they felt THEIR beliefs were stronger, and they projected this in everything they did. Generally these people are...BOSSES, MANAGERS, CEOS, etc. Because they know that they can say anything as long as its done with enough authority, and there will be people who have lower "Value" (not value as in how much a person is worth, obviously they go for alot on ebay. I mean social value), who will obey. Ever notice when people walk into a room they almost instinctively look around to see, "Alright who's the leader, who's lower then me on the social chain, who's higher, etc?" It happens all the time, and the people who are higher, can get away with saying almost anything with enough authority. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I'll answer this for RR, because I know he is soooo busy at work. To a certain degree it is true what you said, but if you work with people who are really good they will see through your game.

[blind_otter]

Certainly, but I don't just hang out on the intarweb looking to read more, I actually go out with friends, socialize, and actually meet other people and women .

 

 

I just find it incredibly hard to believe that after 17 years on this planet you've somehow cut massive swaths into the female dating pool. I mean it's only been like 2 or 3 years since you got pubes, right? I'm just guessing here.

 

I wish I could somehow get an update of your changing view and opinions as you get older.

[a4a]

I just find it incredibly hard to believe that after 17 years on this planet you've somehow cut massive swaths into the female dating pool. I mean it's only been like 2 or 3 years since you got pubes, right? I'm just guessing here.

 

I wish I could somehow get an update of your changing view and opinions as you get older.

 

:lmao:

special thanks Otter! I just spewed on my coffee table...... fortunatley it was coffee I spewed...... so I suppose it is ok.

 

a4a- feels blah tired today

[blind_otter]

:lmao:

special thanks Otter! I just spewed on my coffee table...... fortunatley it was coffee I spewed...... so I suppose it is ok.

 

a4a- feels blah tired today

 

Are you SURE it was coffeeeeeee?

[hyakku]

I just find it incredibly hard to believe that after 17 years on this planet you've somehow cut massive swaths into the female dating pool. I mean it's only been like 2 or 3 years since you got pubes, right? I'm just guessing here.

 

I wish I could somehow get an update of your changing view and opinions as you get older.

 

Heh I'll give you that one. Just remember, Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour is humility.

 

 

I just have to answer this. Your great guy who is supposedly on your side is also writing as Christian Carter and has published this book "How to catch and keep him". I read this one and I read "Double your dating" and the passage that you just quoted is in BOTH books. And a lot of other techniques and methods are in both books.

 

I don't look at him as like my "best friend" or something like that. But everyone can learn from those with more experience. You telling me he is wrong is no different from him telling me your wrong. The only difference is that I've tried both ways, and one works alot better. Third, how do you know they are the same person just from that passage? Maybe one took the passage from another? In fact I wouldn't be surprised if DD took that from the guy because he does read many books designed for women in order to see the inverse working in men's favor.

 

That's sounds like normal sound behavior, but for this I don't need to read a book and talk about "my reality".

 

Again that was only a small example. But I don't think how I choose to live will always be normal sound behavior to many people, and some will probably even say I'm too cruel or short with people, but thats ok, like I said, other people's opinions aren't what I live for.

 

Well, if it works for you fine, but what you describe barely raises any kind of interest in me. I also don't perceive the kind of humour that is encouraged by your mentors to be genuine. It's always the same, "Neg her. Works fabulous with the chicks

 

Again, you have not read and heard all of their materials. Commenting on it is foolish. Again, all guys don't go, "NEG NEG NEG NEG NEG NEG NEG" and that's it. And you can be genuine the entire time, except most guys over do it and become too nice, clingy, etc.

 

We don't agree, because if you don't know what went wrong, how can you improve? If you don't know what mistakes you made, how do you know what to avoid in the future?

 

I said I reflect and say to myself, "How can I improve X quality". Obviously I would have to discover what "X" quality is before attempting to improve on it. The difference is that instead of phrasing it as a what question, how to creates a more positive mind frame.

 

To a certain degree it is true what you said, but if you work with people who are really good they will see through your game.

 

Game? I'm talking about in life in general, although life could be considered a game.

 

There's a famous experiment in which a guy lectures students, expounding his views on extraterrestrial life. Afterwards half the group are told he is the university's leading professor on the subject, the other half are told he is the janitor who studied up on this in his spare time. Despite the fact that both experienced the same lecture (and crucially for your opinions, the same confidence), the first group were largely persuaded by his views, the second not.

 

Perfect example of demonstration of higher and lower value. Again though agreeing to disagree would be best as this is just getting rehashed and old.

 

Edit: Oh and PS just for your general knowledge blind, guys grow pubes from 10-12.