Forgiveness after Infidelity

[Ladyjane14]

I told him that he cannot have a girlfriend and a wife.

 

p.s. That's not entirely true. He can have a wife and a girlfriend. You don't get to control that decision for him.

 

All you can control is your own choice NOT to be cooperative with that. IOW, if he decides to have a girlfriend...he won't have YOU as his wife.

[Makeitstop]

I feel like utter crap. I want to do what you said LadyJ but I already told him that he had to end it. I was thinking this morning that maybe if we put boundaries in place that might help him to end it if he operates within those boundaries. He doesn't feel strong enough to end it. I want to contact him now but at this point I would only be seen as a nuisance...

[Chump64]

"Maybe" if you put boundaries in place?

 

That's long overdue. I feel for you, but you need to quit waffling. Give him an ultimatum and stick to it. He picks you or the girlfriend and if he pick you, there's no second chances. He's never going to take you seriously if you keep tolerating this behavior and blaming yourself for his actions.

[catgirl1927]

"Maybe" if you put boundaries in place?

 

That's long overdue. I feel for you, but you need to quit waffling. Give him an ultimatum and stick to it. He picks you or the girlfriend and if he pick you, there's no second chances. He's never going to take you seriously if you keep tolerating this behavior and blaming yourself for his actions.

 

Exactly, you'll only get the respect you DEMAND. Oh girl. Stand up for yourself! You deserve better than this.

[Ladyjane14]

Back in the beginning of your thread when we talked about 'boundaries', you said this to Chump:

 

The only reason why I have accepted this and allowed him to come back is because he has set up every one of those boundaries you listed...by himself.

 

Do you see now how you've allowed your WH to set your boundaries for you? We're not talking about the parameters of his behavior per se. We're talking about what YOU require in order to still WANT to be this guy's wife.

 

If he sets boundaries on what is acceptable behavior in a husband....the sky's the limit. He can change them at will. Case in point....HE decided he was going to end the affair, but then HE decided that maybe he couldn't do that afterall. You see how it works, right? Your husband is in control of YOUR boundaries.

 

In order for him to be a good husband to you, he has to fit the bill on your most basic ENs.

 

The list is something like this:

 

Here's an Example....

 

*I need a husband who loves me enough to commit to a monogamous relationship with me.

 

*I need a husband who is PRESENT in the marriage and in the family.

 

*I need a husband who is fiscally responsible and works to keep our family solvent.

 

*I need a husband who prioritizes MY needs as if they were his own.

 

*I need a husband who is emotionally intimate with me.

 

You can put whatever you really need on your list...but what you're describing is the BARE BONES ESSENTIALS of what it takes for a man to be the husband of MakeItStop. Once you've filled your list....those are your boundaries.

 

You can then take whatever action you feel is necessary to enforce them. Sometimes it won't require a whole lot more than a gentle reminder, and sometimes you'll have to get down and dirty....even to the point of ending the marriage entirely. But you have to be true to yourself. You'll never be happy in your relationship if you can't get the most basic of your ENs met within it.

 

This thing goes both ways. He has his own list too. Your willingness to fill it is essential to the success of the reconciliation. Because HE gets to decide what the requirements are in determining his willingness to remain on as your husband. But make no mistake....he has NO RIGHT to dictate your list to you. Your boundaries are your own.

[greenshift]

There are a few possible outcomes here:

 

1. He continues seeing the both of you.

2. He dumps her. Again.

3. He leaves you.

 

The way you're going is headed for 1 or 3, but definitely not 2. As scarey as it is, you need to set some boundaries. He sounds like he's letting himself be pushed around, probably by OW. You need to be assertive here.

 

Your husband will do what he's going to do - but you can protect yourself, and your kids (you're kidding yourself if you think they aren't picking up on all of this tension) - and make it clear that it's you or her - no compromises, and no stalling.

 

This may result in him leaving, and I know that's scarey, but he's treating you like crap - and that's why you feel like crap. No matter what happened in the past, you don't deserve this. NOBODY deserves this.

 

He needs to be a man and make a decision. I know you're afraid that it won't be the one you want, but the alternative is letting things continue as they are for the forseeable future. Imagine how much that's going to suck.

 

It's easy for us to stand back and tell us what we think you should do, but you're the man on the ground, so to speak, and it's your decision. Still, respect yourself, realize that you deserve to be with someone who loves you and only you and, if he can't give that to you, move on.

 

I hate divorce and I would never encourage it, but be prepared.

 

Here's what I think will happen:

 

1. You'll give him an ultimatum.

2. He'll whine and complain about it.

3. He'll keep talking to her, seeing her.

4. You'll catch him and throw him out.

5. He'll move in with her.

6. After a few months, things with them will fall apart(which happens in something like 90% of relationships that started with infidelity)

7. He'll call you, begging to come home.

 

Of course, it may not happen that way. If you do decide to make him leave, make sure you're prepared to see it through.

 

I wish I had better advice. In a perfect world, this wouldn't happen.

[Makeitstop]

This is the boundary I have put before him. He has told me that "no contact" is too hard for him. It only makes him crave her more. My H can be strong if he wants to be but this is something he doesn't feel he has the strength to go through a second time. So I have compromised with him. I told him he had until moving day to wrap things up. I'm putting the security deposit down on the apartment on Friday and I told him that I want a peaceful home without baggage. He said that sounds fair and that he would agree to that and then from moving day forward he would give 100% to this marriage and family. He won't walk out on me but if I walk out on him, it makes his life that much easier. So the bastard isn't getting away that easily.

 

There is a timeline and a deadline. He said that he will. If he doesn't then "that's all folks!"

[greenshift]

I understand why you agreed to that, but I don't it was the right thing to do. Also, if it's "too hard" for him now, what's going to make it easier when you move?

 

I fear you're creating an environment where he is learning that he can step all over you. I hope, for your sake, that I'm wrong. Quitting the OW is a lot like quitting a drug; you just have to do it, cold turkey, and not after "one more hit."

[Chump64]

He has told me that "no contact" is too hard for him. It only makes him crave her more.

 

 

So why will this suddenly change, just because you gave him one more day to "wrap things up"? Is he going to gain the strength, magically, overnight?

[Makeitstop]

I called a counselor and we are having a session tonight. He did give me copies of the emails that transpired between them. He has told me that he would be completely honest with me as far as what goes on between them and absolutely he will not go to her home or have sexual intercourse. He wants to just hang with her like a "friend". What I'm concerned about is how she'll feel. He does know that he's prolonging the inevitable. We'll see what happens after counseling tonight.

[greenshift]

1. You're counsellor is going to tell him that he has to break contact with her, immediately. I'd be VERY surprised if this doesn't happen.

 

2. He's going to balk, and might blame it on you, saying "s/he's on YOUR side because you're the woman!" or some such malarky.

 

Be calm, dispassionate if possible.

 

He's letting himself get pushed around. By you - which is what he needs, as far as I can tell - and by her, because he either has feelings for her or he's too clueless to see that by avoiding hurting her and giving in to her overtures, he's destroying your family.

 

He needs to decide which is more important. That's something to bring up in counselling.

 

Hang in there.

[Lennox]

No contact is too hard for him? It makes him crave HER more???? How many times do you need to get kicked in the teeth by both him and his girlfriend before you realize that this is totally unacceptable? Your lack of will is basically turning your marriage into an open marriage. Don't you see that?

 

You need to hit him hard and where it hurts. Get a legal separation from him and child support. Let HER support him while he has to fork over his money to you. You are not a carpet to be walked on. Do you really want your kids growing up seeing that treating a wife the way he is treating you is acceptable?

 

Sheesh, if my husband would bend over and take it like you have, I'd have plenty of boyfriends on the side! The fact is he wouldn't, and it's kept me on the straight and narrow. As things are, if my husband voiced opposition to my friendship with a single male I know, I'd drop all contact with him as well, even though I'm not sleeping with him or anything.

[greenshift]

Woah, there!

 

Legal separation? I'm sticking with: distance does not create closeness.

 

Lennox is right that you're being too accepting of his seeing the OW - that will be the death knell of your marriage if you aren't careful. However, starting divorce proceedings (and getting legally separated - which doesn't exist in some states - is the first step on that road and the hardest, I think, to recover from) is not the answer.

 

Give the counsellor a chance. It's only a few hours away.

 

Also, be completely honest with the counsellor. If you've never been in therapy, it can be difficult to discuss private or hurtful things, even moreso for men, sometimes.

 

I really think your husband needs a kick in the balls, but if you say "I'm leaving" I have the feeling he'll just boo-hoo and go seek some comfort. Has he always been this passive-aggressive?

[Makeitstop]

yes...always. And about everything.

[greenshift]

Chin up. I'm glad you're going to see the counsellor.

 

I also have to say, you seem to be doing very well in very trying circumstances. While I can imagine what you're going through, it's you, not me or us, that is going through it. It's really, really hard. Hang in there.

 

One further note: don't threaten divorce unless you're prepared to see it through. Using that as a manipulation tactic is the edge of very slippery slope.

[Ladyjane14]

You're not doing him any favor if you allow him to hurt you, MakeIt. He'll have to deal with the fallout from it sooner or later. He's building up your resentments and insecurities by continuing to see the OW.

 

Good luck at counceling. Let us know how it went.

[Lennox]

I suggest legal separation and collecting child support because she needs to face facts here...HE STILL HAS A GIRLFRIEND ON THE SIDE. And now the relationship is with her CONSENT.

 

Makeitstop, he's still got a relationship with his girlfriend because frankly, he doesn't give a damn about his relationship with you. That's the bottom line and I think you need to start thinking about your legal options and how to best protect the most important thing in your life, and that's your kid's futures.

 

You can see all the marriage counselors you want, it's not going to change the fact that he's having his cake and eating it too by KEEPING the girlfriend and you at the same time.

 

Infidelity is certainly forgivable, but only if the cheating partner is truly sorry and proves to his spouse that he's serious about WORKING on his marital relationship.

 

Before counseling tonight, think about determining the reasons you are so willing to let your husband AND HIS GIRLFRIEND walk all over you without penalty.

 

Im not telling you all this to jump all over you, I'm telling you this because we've come too damn far as women to allow ourselves to be treated like trash anymore. You sound too much like a wonderful, compassionate woman to have to deal with a turd that doesn't treat you with the most love and respect that you truly deserve. I'm sure the single guys on here wish they could find a woman that is as loving and compassionate as you are.

 

You deserve to be treated SO much better than you currently are! I wish you could see that!

[Chump64]

I think it's pretty clear that MakeIt is not going to threaten separation or divorce, probably b/c she's just not in the right place mentally / not ready to go there. And those are not threats to be made lightly. You have to be able to carry though. I have a feeling he would not take her seriously, anyway, since she has tolerated so much BS from him up to this point.

 

Figure out what he'd have to pay you monthly for child support. It would probably be $800 minimum. That may light a fire under his butt.

[greenshift]

I think she *does* see that - she's just hoping that she'll be able to knock some sense into the father of her children. Which IS possible. It may not happen, but it could. The next few days will determine the outcome of all of this. He's wrong - no doubt about that, and if the guy was here I'd be tempted to kick him in the head. Maybe the counsellor will be able to wake him up. I prefer to err on the side of optimism in this case, no matter how willfully-blind that may be.

[Chump64]

In situations like this, I don't think it's all that uncommon for counselors to see couples in which the wandering spouse is still not sure what s/he wants to do. That's why I'm glad to see that he has agreed to counseling. The first thing he needs to decide is what he really wants, knowing he can't have both. Hopefully the counselor will help him nail that down so they can move forward, whichever direction it ends up being.

[Makeitstop]

The counselor wasn't available when we called. I left a message. *sigh* Well, we did come to some agreement. We agreed that we would give it some time. He would see her but be completely honest with me about it. I would see my emotional attachment but be completely honest about that. Our deadline is moving day. Moving day is a week from now. We plan on going to church together this Saturday. He'll be with her at the movies on Friday night and he said that he would call me if he'll be later but he would abide by a 11pm curfew and he would let me know ahead of time if he wouldn't be home for dinner. Other than that he should be home for most of the weekend.

 

I see the conflict. On one hand it bothers him when he sees that I'm hurting. When it's displayed. But on the other hand, he cares about the OW and sometimes I sense his indifference.

 

He is telling creditors the new address. We are talking about the bills. And he has maintained that he wants to just hang around her as a friend. Nothing more. Now I have to give him the space and hang in there for a week (if I can without succumbing to insanity). Then he'll have to put up or shut up, so to speak.

[Chump64]

Does anyone else feel like a dog chasing its own tail?

[greenshift]

A bit.

 

MakeIt - *why* are you allowing him to go out with her on Friday? What do you hope to accomplish? This doesn't make any sense.

 

I'm not trying to antagonize you. I can only guess that you're afraid that, if you say no, he's going to leave. But, personally, I don't see the difference between cutting her off now, and a week from now. The result will be the same. And, honestly, I'd be very, very surprised if he lives up to that bargain.

 

He's being very cruel at the moment by putting you through this. Like you said, he can't have both a wife, and a girlfriend - unless you accept it. And, for the moment, that's what you're doing. WHY would you do that to yourself?

 

I hope it works, for your sake.

[Lennox]

heh, I kinda feel like that.

 

He's not seeing her as a friend hun, he's gonna boink her on Friday night. People can and do have sex and still get home before 11 pm. She is no friend. If she was truly his friend, she would not have gone through with reconcilation with him like she did. She would have left him alone. I would not be surprised to hear he's already went back to have sex with her. If for some reason you find out he did boink her, all he's going to tell you is that you KNEW how weak he was to her, but you let him go anyway, therefore, it's YOUR fault he cheated. He's going to turn this around and pull a blameshifting act on you.

 

Take off the rose colored glasses dear, he's spending Friday night with his GIRLFRIEND, not one of his male buddies. It doesn't bother him enough that you're hurting because he doesn't love you that much. If he really loved you, he would respect you and cut off all contact with this woman.

 

Greenshift, do you still maintain that at least a separation isn't called for in this situation in light of her last post? I was just trying to save her a lot of time and anguish by encouraging her to drop the bum now. He's not worth saving. He needs to get his little tail back in the pond so he can grow up and be worth keeping someday.

[Ladyjane14]

I can only guess that you're afraid that, if you say no, he's going to leave. But, personally, I don't see the difference between cutting her off now, and a week from now. The result will be the same. And, honestly, I'd be very, very surprised if he lives up to that bargain.

 

He's being very cruel at the moment by putting you through this. Like you said, he can't have both a wife, and a girlfriend - unless you accept it. And, for the moment, that's what you're doing. WHY would you do that to yourself?

 

I don't understand this either.

I recognize that you feel guilty about your mistakes in the marriage, MakeIt....but what can possibly be accomplished here?

 

He has already tried to see the OW behind your back. And when that failed he went on to his next plan...again "to see OW"...but rather with your permission instead. NOWHERE in his plan was the option of not seeing OW.

What does this tell you about his affair addiction?

 

Honestly, he's NOT going to stop in a week. He's still caught up in the affair. This guy just said to you, "Please pass the cake"....and you gave him CAKE!

 

Your guilt is keeping you from doing what you need to do. Your friendship with a gay man, while not appropriate for a married woman, is NOT the equivalent of a MM taking his girlfriend out on a date! Your previous sexual liaison is not equivalent to a prolonged EA/PA. Both are clearly wrong, but they are NOT the same thing, and they can't be handled in the same way.

 

I usually don't recommend to people that they backpeddle on their words, but.... If I were you and got caught up in the moment, and then gave permission for something that is absolutely DESTRUCTIVE to my own emotional health...I would "backpeddle" my ass off.

 

It's as easy as saying, "Honey, I'm sorry that I gave you the wrong impression. I got carried away by my fear of losing you...and told you something I didn't really mean." Then I'd tell him that if 'going to the movies' with OW was that important to him, he ought to take his bags with him.

 

For damn sure I wouldn't be sitting around later on tonight, crying and feeling like a victim.

 

This guy is NOT your husband. He's a WH, and will do whatever he needs to do in order to keep his affair going. He's hurting you and there's NO WAY he doesn't know it. Think about that for a minute...he knows he's hurting you and he's doing it anyway!

 

The question you have to ask yourself is, "Do I want a WH or a Husband?" Because if you continue to feed and nurture the WH....your husband will never find his way home.