Forgiveness after Infidelity

[Ladyjane14]

I just read this little quote by Catgirl1927 on another thread, and it seemed relevant enough to mention in your situation.

 

The only reason you have a woman on the side is to hurt your wife and punish her.

 

Why is it that you forgave him readily enough, but he continues to punish you? And why are you helping him to do it?

 

You know, if he wanted to hurt you....MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. He hurt you. Why does he continue to rub salt into your wounds?

 

Have you not suffered enough for your mistakes yet? When are you going to forgive yourself and move on from the past?

[Chump64]

From what I have read about infidelity, the absolute worst scenario that a betrayed spouse can agree to is this one -- where the husband is permitted to keep the OW and yet live with the wife. To willingly taking part in this love triangle is worse for everyone (remember the kids too, by the way). It's worse than splitting up and dividing assets, custody, etc.

 

I have a feeling that Makeitstop will never come around to reality. She may think her husband will stop in a week, or a month, or a year, or whatever, but by giving him an inch, he will take a mile from here until the day they either die or divorce. She has already made it clear that she won't push him to leave the OW he craves, because she doesn't want to drive him out of their marriage. I doubt she will actually ever see a counselor, and if she does, I doubt she will heed the counselor's advice.

 

Sorry to be such a downer, I think this situation is pretty hopeless.

[greenshift]

Lennox -

 

I think that separation leads to divorce far more frequently than it leads to reconciliation. I think MakeIt is paralyzed with the fear that that she's going to lose her husband, and is dealing with the pain she's going through now by telling herself that it's just going to last a few more days, and then they can start working on this (which, btw, is not realistic. Sorry). And, I think the divorce has a very real impact on children, as well as the adults, and she's probably trying to do anything she can to keep her family together, for her sake and for the kids'.

 

If there is any way to get this guy to drop the OW, then I think they should at least give it a shot. Who knows what can happen in a few months if they both really give it their best shot. The problem now is that he isn't even trying! Not ONE LITTLE BIT.

 

So, I'm torn between telling her that she needs to drop this selfish bum (and he is a bum, despite any unknown-to-us admirable qualities he may have) for her own well-being, and trying for a little while longer for the sake of her family.

 

But, here's the long and short of it, from my point of view. If he goes out with this woman on Friday, he's going to sleep with her. He won't be home by 11, he won't answer his cell phone, and he will give you some cock-and-bull story about his battery dying, a flat tire, they lost track of time "talking," or something. And he'll stick to that story unless you have timestamped video proving he's lying.

 

Because, at the end of the day, he's an addict. When he goes out with her, he gets to forget about his promises and responsibilities, and act like a teenager.

 

MakeIt, if you're still committed to letting him get away with this, the very best thing you can do (aside from changing your position, as others have said) is to spend the next few days working out how you're going to live without him. Financial arrangements, child custody and visitation, property division - because you're heading for a divorce.

 

You need to tell him to drop her NOW, not next week. Nothing you've done, nothing you could possibly have done, justifies his behavior. If he loves you, and is serious about your family, he'll respect that you respect yourself enough to make a stand; he'll back down (he seems like a pushover, anyway) and straighten up, at least for the time being. If he doesn't want you and your family, and isn't willing to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to save your marriage, he'll leave.

 

And that could be the kindest thing he could do at the moment, because at least then you'd be making progress in a direction that doesn't involve being silently torn to pieces while you watch.

 

Here's a good rule of thumb: If there's anyone you want to hang out with where it would be uncomfortable or inappropriate if your spouse is there, it's a bad idea, and detrimental to your marriage. And I can't think of any friend, no matter how long or how well I've known them, that I would have sacrificed my marriage for.

 

He's not strong enough? Then he's not strong enough to stay married, and you should cut your losses. Still, I stress (and this is VERY important) - don't play the separation or divorce card until you are really, truly ready to follow through with it. It may straighten him out but, if he refuses, and you back down, he'll spend the rest of your life walking all over you like he is now.

 

Talk to your minister on Saturday after church, even if its by yourself.

 

Good luck - you're in my thoughts.

[jmargel]

The counselor wasn't available when we called. I left a message. *sigh* Well, we did come to some agreement. We agreed that we would give it some time. He would see her but be completely honest with me about it. I would see my emotional attachment but be completely honest about that. Our deadline is moving day. Moving day is a week from now. We plan on going to church together this Saturday. He'll be with her at the movies on Friday night and he said that he would call me if he'll be later but he would abide by a 11pm curfew and he would let me know ahead of time if he wouldn't be home for dinner. Other than that he should be home for most of the weekend.

 

I see the conflict. On one hand it bothers him when he sees that I'm hurting. When it's displayed. But on the other hand, he cares about the OW and sometimes I sense his indifference.

 

He is telling creditors the new address. We are talking about the bills. And he has maintained that he wants to just hang around her as a friend. Nothing more. Now I have to give him the space and hang in there for a week (if I can without succumbing to insanity). Then he'll have to put up or shut up, so to speak.

 

He is using you and he's nothing more than a player. He has NO respect for you. Without respect, without facing consequences he will continue to see & sleep with her. How many times have you heard the 'Oh, he's/she's just a friend'. Especially after he slept with her?

 

Honestly you do need a reality check here. You have based your own self-worth on this guy. You are afraid to let go and will to compromise on everything our vows should be about.

 

Give him the ultamatium. No contact & goto MC or it's over and he moves out this weekend. Your happiness should not be relying just on the fact if you are with him or not. You have massive insecurity issues. Take a step back and look at the big picture. This game is going to continue until you put a final stop to this. Either his behavior or divorce.

[catgirl1927]

I actually have a real life friend who went through this. Her husband liked to cheat, but what he did was talk her into an "open marriage" where they were basically swingers. It started with threesomes, then they would pair off with other people... then they had other people they saw more and more often. Long story short, he went on a business trip, came back with a girlfriend and said he wanted to be exclusive with her. She wasn't willing to "share" the way my friend was. So my friend let them move in together into HER house and she moved into another bedroom. He didn't want a divorce, though, until the girlfriend started pressuring him to get married. She let them stay because she honestly thought he would come back around. She fought the divorce for almost 5 months while those two lived in her house, ate her food, paid no rent, the GF of course had no job or she couldn't MOVE with no notice or anything. She was so afraid to be alone.

[greenshift]

It's ironic that fear of being alone often causes that which we seek to avoid. Still, I'd rather be alone and have my dignity than married and a doormat.

 

Mind you, I didn't feel that way when *I* was going through this EXACT SAME THING. After my ex told me that she was sleeping with someone else (we were separated at the time), she insisted on continuing to see him because she needed a "normal day." This was surrounded by comments that I didn't dress well (hello! I'm an engineer! And btw, she picked out everything I owned), she wasn't attracted to me (I'm REALLY hot - seriously) and we weren't "suited" to each other. Whatever. It wasn't about me - it was about her selfish attitude and lack of confidence in a decision she'd already made, and tearing me down made her feel better.

 

That should have been the last conversation I ever had with her. Unfortunately it got stretched out for another six months of hell before I would up in the hospital (hydrochloric acid is not as refreshing as one might imagine) and my family convinced her that talking to me was not in either of our best interests.

 

Leaving me alone is the kindest thing she ever did.

 

(sorry for co-opting the thread. I still vent frequently, like Old Faithful.)

[Chump64]

When I confronted my husband about his affair, I offered up divorce vs. a list of requirements (with the goal being reconciliation). I had my ducks in a row, including an attorney who said she could file for me yet that day, if that's what he wanted. I knew that custody was usually divided 50/50 and I knew how much our house would sell for / how much we would each end up with from that sale and other assets. I threw it all down on the table.

 

I honestly don't know what it is that gives you the ability to threaten divorce and then "walk the walk." I just know that if I am screwed over again, I will have it. No lookin' back, baby.

 

Then again, some people think I am nuts for not already DOING just that, considering my husband cheated for 10 years.

[Ladyjane14]

I honestly don't know what it is that gives you the ability to threaten divorce and then "walk the walk."

 

It's meaning it.

 

Say what you mean....mean what you say....."This ain't no empty threat Baby". Ultimatums don't mean a thing unless you're for real.

 

On D-Day, I saw a lawyer, and then I confronted my husband and demanded a divorce....all by 11:30 in the morning too. No joke.

[Chump64]

On my worst days, I fantasize about having done that.

[Makeitstop]

I've decided to take an approach that involves a combination of most of your responses. And I feel alot better. I decided to do two things:

 

1) Be patient. My husband doesn't deal with change well. I know this. And I forgot. Every change that comes about has to come gradually or he'll resist it. He knows what he wants and what needs to happen in order for him to get what he wants: peace.

 

2) Get a life! Yes people, I've been out. I went to the movies last night. Before I left, he was on the phone with the OW (outside the house which I appreciate because it shows respect). He came back in looking pretty hurt. So I told him that I knew that he was hurting and that I was going to the movies. I told him he should take some time away from the drama of us (the OW and I) and rest and think about him for a change. He drew me in for a hug! (I was surprised.) I told him that I read him like a book and he cocked his head to the side in a "you know you're right" sort of fashion. When I came back he was much more relaxed. I woke up this morning in a funk but it disappeared once I got up and started moving. I washed clothes and chose some clothes for my H to wear to work tomorrow. We worked out a deal where I'll iron his clothes on Sunday since I'm washing anyways (because he likes that but I don't like to iron). Then he asked me what did I want him to do! (so surprised that I couldn't think of anything at first.) I just asked him to continue to call me and be accountable from time. We'll start from there.

 

We'll see what happens this week. My hopes aren't up completely. My focus on other things keeps me from being so hurt, angry, and irrational. But Rome wasn't built in a day. I think that as the years go by we'll only get better. Not days...years....

[Chump64]

Before I left, he was on the phone with the OW (outside the house which I appreciate because it shows respect).

 

 

This is just so sad and pathetic.

 

Why don't you just admit that you are OK with an open marriage, and put it on the table? Then you can get it over with and let the OW move right into your home.

[Ladyjane14]

Well, you'll do what seems right for you. Personally, I wouldn't have handled an ongoing affair with any tolerance at all, but....that doesn't mean that your way is wrong. You know your situation best afterall, and I sincerely hope that it works out for you.

 

Take a look and 'Plan A' and 'Plan B' over at marriagebuilders. You'll find the "Coping with Infidelity...." link at the bottom of the righthand side. Then, in the gray box to the left you'll find the "What are Plan A and Plan B" link.

 

What you're doing right now can be described loosely as Plan A, in which you "negotiate" with your husband in order that he separate from the affair partner. In essence, you are luring him away from the OW. You are identifying and fulfilling his ENs. Plan A also calls for a certain amount of accountability on the part of the WS though. You do NOT turn yourself into a doormat for him to wipe his feet on. Okay?

 

Plan A should be followed up sharply by Plan B should the affair continue on without abatement. Plan B will require little or no contact and the abrupt cessation of fulfillment in the matter of ENs. It illustrates for the WS exactly what they'll be missing when they lose their spouse completely from their lives.

 

If you're going to go this route....I highly recommend that you follow this method to the letter. Affairs should NEVER be tolerated without a plan of action. It does no good to put in a stellar Plan A...if you don't follow up with Plan B should necessity demand it.

 

As I said earlier, I am personally intolerant of infidelity. My use if Plan A would only be to cope with the withdrawal phase. But by design, it IS a plan to break up an ongoing affair, so I think it'll work just fine for you. You've already made quite a bit of headway with it.

 

I'll be on a break from reading and posting here at LS for a few weeks, but I wish you much success in the interim.

You've steadfastly refused to give up. And even though I can't imagine WHY you want this guy...it's obvious to me that you do. I respect that.

[theantibarbie23]

So I told him that I knew that he was hurting and that I was going to the movies. I told him he should take some time away from the drama of us (the OW and I) and rest and think about him for a change. He drew me in for a hug! (I was surprised.) I told him that I read him like a book and he cocked his head to the side in a "you know you're right" sort of fashion. When I came back he was much more relaxed.

 

Telling a cheater that they need to take time to think about themselves is like telling a narcissist they should spend more time gazing lovingly at their reflection. Seriously, this guy needs to think LESS about himself for a change and more about how he's hurting his own family... That's if he's even capable of empathizing with you, which I don't think he is.

 

In all honesty, he's not going to give her up if he thinks he can continue to play this game. He can see how very desperate you are to keep the marriage together. He's going to try and smooth things over with you, just enough to keep you pacified for the time being, and continue to see her while lying to your face. "Just friends?" If you believe that for even a second, you are setting yourself up to be played for a complete fool.

 

It's sad, in and of itself, that you've been treated with such little dignity by your own husband for so long that you now see every crumb he throws at you as some sort of big offering.

 

Him calling his mistress outside the house is no sign of respect. Maybe he just didn't want you to overhear the things he was telling her, like that he loves her or that it's your fault (because you are psycho, depressed, using the kids against him, ect.) the two of them aren't living together right now... I wouldn't put this type of behavior past him at all.

[Makeitstop]

He left to have sex with her last night.

 

I don't have the strength to leave. I've decided that will happen, will. And I'll just leave him alone and he'll do whatever.

[Ladyjane14]

He left to have sex with her last night.

 

I don't have the strength to leave. I've decided that will happen, will. And I'll just leave him alone and he'll do whatever.

 

Well that's just awful. :(

How did this come about? Did he admit this to you? Or did you find out in some other way?

 

What do you mean you "don't have the strength to leave"?

I thought you were moving to a new place.

[Makeitstop]

We are moving. And he told me eventually after he came from her house at almost 3am.

 

I don't have the strength to leave this marriage. I don't even know if it's because I love him anymore. I ache for my children.

 

I decided to somehow, someway, just back away from him. He said I'm smothering him. So I have to get out of his face. Has anyone ever initiated no contact with their H while living in the same house?

 

*sigh* I'd like to feel liked again.

[Lennox]

I'm so sorry you're going through all this crap right now.

 

It's hard to see the positives when you're in the midst of the situation. You have so much to look forward to once you've detached from him. As far as you worrying about the kids...it's a very valid concern, BUT, you're going to hurt them more in the long run if you allow this man to walk all over you and stomp on your feelings without penalty. Parents teach their children by example. My parents fought all the time and I can remember telling my mom that she should just leave my dad. Sometimes the best thing for the children is for the parents to divorce.

 

In house separations can be tricky, and hopefully there's someone else on here that can give you advice on that.

 

You need legal advice right now hun. Please, please get in touch with a family law attorney so that you can protect your rights as well as the rights of your children. Whether you leave right away or plan your leaving carefully, you NEED legal advice. Don't sign any new leases with this man!

 

Take care of yourself and your kids.

[Ladyjane14]

I decided to somehow, someway, just back away from him. He said I'm smothering him. So I have to get out of his face. Has anyone ever initiated no contact with their H while living in the same house?

 

 

Honey....why not just kick his sorry ass out? Why not just tell him to f*ck off and stay gone? He's an a*hole. I still haven't forgotten your response to Greenshift when he asked you, "Is he always passive/aggressive?" And you answered, "Yes....he always has been".

 

This guy is not worth keeping. He'll get ALOT worse before he ever gets better. And by the time he pulls his head out of his ass...you'll be too far past caring to want him back. You're just spinning your wheels now.

 

Take your kids and go stay with a family member. Do whatever you have to do, but see a lawyer and put that moron out of your life.

 

You know, I truly appreciate that you want to work this thing out, and I'd really like to be supportive and say "just hang in there, it's all gonna work out"....but I can't begin to imagine how that can happen at this point.

 

Sure, you can follow the MB plan....and eventually the affair will end and the sh*thead will stroll on home. But what do you end up with after it's all said and done?

---A cheatin' man that you'll have to maintain a vigilant eye on for the rest of your natural life.

[greenshift]

That's just awful... I know that when this happened to me, at this point I was oscillating between crying/can't breathe/why-god-why and that-frickin-ho/what-the-hell-did-i-ever-do-to-her/where can I get a baseball bat at this hour?

 

(btw, violence isn't the answer, kids, [my attorney made me type that])

 

Anyway. You say that you "don't have the strength to leave." Well, here's the deal:

 

He's already left.

 

He's living with you, sleeping in your bed(?), acting like a 9-5 husband while cavorting around with the OW. MakeIt, he's already out, and you're just making it easier for him.

 

You're concerned for your kids. I understand that - I also came from a broken home and the divorce wasn't fun, but it wasn't nearly as bad as watching my parents tearing each other apart, and blaming myself for it. You do *not* want them around for this. So, here's what I'd do.

 

1. Get an attorney. They aren't cheap, but there are some options out there.

 

2. Are you close to your parents, sisters or brothers? This may be the time to get some support. Not so they can bad-mouth him, but you may need help soon with this mess. This is what family is for.

 

3. Today when he is at work, pack his things, set them by the door. When he gets home, get his key back and send him on his way. Tell him you'll mail him the papers, etc, but you can *NOT* talk to him. Odds are he will come crawling back in a few weeks, but don't count on it because that's not the point of this action. The point is to create space so you can start moving on.

 

You need to work on protecting yourself and your kids. It's possible that he's confused, doesn't really know what he's doing, can't see beyond the end of his nose right now and somewhere, deep inside, is the guy you fell in love with who would never do this to you. But, that doesn't help if that guy won't come out and kick this monster's ass.

 

He said you're "smothering" him. MakeIt, the only way that I can see that you're smothering him is by demanding that he stop sleeping with someone else and act like and adult, for a change. That isn't smothering, any more than it's smothering for you to expect him to go to work every day, or to pick his towels up off of the floor after he showers.

 

If you take only one thing away from this post, let it be this: you need to go to a counsellor. You're a wreck right now, I bet, and experience shows that this is going to get worse, unfortunately before it gets better - sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Rather than going the expensive route in your case, I'd suggest you go to your church and talk to the minister. They should be able to provide you with some local resources that won't break the bank.

 

I'm sorry you're going through this; it's not fair.

[Ladyjane14]

He said I'm smothering him. So I have to get out of his face.

 

That sh*t would NEVER have come out of my husband's mouth. 'Cause if he ever said "You're smothering me" WHILE HE WAS CHEATING....I'd have told him 'that sh*t can be ARRANGED"!!!

 

(Now...for the sake of literal readers, I'd NEVER have actually done it....but hey, he wouldn't have to know that. M*therF*cker wouldn't lay his ass down and sleep in my presence after a long night out screwing his mistress though and that's for damn sure!)

 

Listen to Greenshift....he's making ALOT of sense. This situation is unhealthy and can't be allowed to go on. It's bad for everyone involved.

[RecordProducer]

Makeitstop, the last time I read your posts, your husband was coming back home determined to break up with the OW once for good. Today I browsed the last page and from what I read in Greenshift's and LadyJane's responses, it sounds like your husband is living with you now while sleeping with the OW.

 

I can't conceive that anyone with minimal amount of self-respect would tolerate this, make excuses for her husband (such as he deals bad with changes) and more over take crap from him like "you're smothering me." If your only purpose is to preserve the marriage at any cost then let him cheat on you and be happy that you're married.

 

However if you want to be with a guy who loves you and respects you - you're not with the right person. You either are a masochist or love him too little to be able to put up with his affair.

[grateful]

Makeitstop,

 

I am so sorry for all you are going through. You've gotten great advice. Follow through for yours and your children's sake. You are fighting to maintain a relationship with a man who cannot be bothered to lift a finger when, as the cheater, it is his battle to fight. You deserve better.

[theantibarbie23]

Don't stay for the kids, they aren't blind and will pick up on the fact that you don't have a happy marriage and are miserable.

 

My mom "stayed" for me and my siblings no matter how bad my father treated her (or us) and I hated him for it. As I got older, I began to have less respect for my mother as well. I saw how weak, needy, and pathetic she really was and it disgusted me.

 

This man you are with is not worthy of you. He says you are smothering him because he wants you both and you don't accept that. Well, that's just too damn bad for him. Kick him OUT or leave with your kids. Let him live with that homewrecker, in the sewer with the rest of the rats, or wherever he pleases as long as he isn't around to continue to damage your self-esteem.

[greenshift]

Something else that occurred to me...

 

I, and I think most of us, understand why you're doing what you're doing. It's just that we've already been through this and, looking back, we wish, for the most part, that we had handled things differently.

 

But, you're not there yet. That doesn't make you stupid, or wrong, or a bad person - it just means that you have to go through something terrible before you understand why we're saying what we're saying. Unfortunately, on the other side, you'll probably have the same regrets that a lot of us do.

 

I know right now you feel like you don't know what you're going to do - about your marriage, the kids, money, dating (and OMG how terrible that must seem at the moment) and the horrifying thought not only of losing your husband, but of being alone in this. For me, this was one of those "What do you mean I'm an adult? Who approved this and why haven't the been shot?" moments.

 

You have to remember that, despite what you're feeling, your identity isn't entirely based on your marriage. You've got talents, qualities and interests that aren't based on the fact that you're married. You are a complete person, not just somebody's mother or somebody's wife. Maybe you're funny, or smart, or sarcastic, or compassionate, or empathetic, a good listener - but you're something. And your husband's conduct doesn't say anything about you - but it speaks volumes about him.

 

This sucks. There's no better way to say it. But, it'll get better. It gets worse, and better, and worse, and then, one magical day, you'll just realize: I'm going to be okay. Really, truly okay. It's not easy, and there is a long road between here and there, no matter how things go. But, it will happen. Remember that.

 

Be strong. We're pulling for you.

 

David.

[greenshift]

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t83642/

 

Wow. Well, I'm glad I try to maintain some perspective, but I think I'm thouroughly entrenched on one side already.