Visit to a rub & tug

[shocked-n-shaken]

Is paying for a hand job enough to end a marriage?

 

We hit and rough patch and have now worked things out. Things have been going good for months.

 

I recently found out (not from him) he visited an erotic massage place and paid for a hand job. He has admitted this was true, at the time he did it, he thought our marriage was over.

 

My problem is he "thought" it was over he didn't know for sure, yet he went a head and did it.

 

I am struggling with the sexual act and my very strong feelings of his cheating on me. He has admitted he also feels the act qualifies as cheating.

 

We have children and the past few months had shown real promise we were going to make it through with a better relationship.

 

Now I don't know if he was over compensating due to guilt or whether he really has the changed for the better.

 

He is not a bad guy, the rough patch was equally our fault. (no cheating involved in rough patch)

[KittenMoon]

Well, if I were married, even in a rough patch, that would have ended it for good.

 

He claims he thought the marriage was over- but obviously it wasn't and I am sure he's no idiot. If he wasn't respectful enough to know if it was really and truly over before engaging in an act that is both morally questionable in society at large AND more importantly, something that would hurt you, then I think that's really screwed up.

 

I would seperate, do the NC as much as you can, see if he changes his tune AND again more importantly, if you can truly find it in your heart to forgive.

[shocked-n-shaken]

Thanks for your view, I really leaning that way.

 

Could you please advise what NC is?

[whichwayisup]

There is no need to separate. I think going to marriage counselling though would help both of you. And he needs to make things right again, earn your trust.

 

If you two love eachother and want the marriage to work and be better, then don't give up. And you may have to find it in your heart to forgive him. Not forget, but move past his stupid mistake.

 

Does he show regret? Is he sorry for doing what he did?

 

(NC means no contact. So, if you two decide to separate, what that means is neither of you would be seeing/talking to eachother at all.)

[37andConfused]

I'm sorry, but I just don't think it's THAT big a deal, esp. if he thought it was over. Now if he'd taken the opportunity to have an affair with a coworker or a friend, THAT would be a good reason to separate. As long as he fessed up and expressed remorse, I would probably let it go.

[Lennox]

Him saying that he "thought" the marriage was over is a very lame excuse for what he did. No one shoved his shlong into some woman's hands. He made a poor choice, one he should have thought about before he ever went in there.

 

That being said...what is he going to do to make amends to you for it? Your marriage can be saved, it's just going to take a lot of work. Why don't you ask him to write out a list of what he plans on doing to make it up to you? It's time he puckered up and started kissing your ass. He needs to work hard at getting your trust and respect back after that incident. I'd also keep him on a short leash for a while too. If he's really sorry, he's not going to mind it.

[JayKay]

You didnt' elaborate much on the 'rough patch' but a lack of love and intimacy can drive people towards poor decisions.

 

I honestly don't think it's worth ending your marriag over a rub 'n tug.

 

Just my two cents

[Walk]

I disagree.

 

He made a mistake that has caused you harm, and does need to make amends for this. I do agree that he has to earn your trust back, and show a dedication to the relationship above and beyond his former attempts.

 

However, if he felt the relationship was over, then whether you felt the same or not doesn't matter. In his mind, you were no longer together. It doesn't mean he wouldn't want the two of you to be together, or that he loved you less, only that he believed there was no relationship to be faithful to at the time. Which would make me question how well the two of you communicate, if both of you seemed to be on such different pages at the same time?

 

Also... he paid someone to hold his dick. He could've gone to the bar and picked up any number of women to sleep with that night. Have real sex instead of the humiliation of actually having to pay for it. Not only that, but to pay someone way too much money for 5 minutes of unsatisfying release.

 

I've talked to several men who've paid for sex before, and the standard response is that prostitues are the most unsatisfying sex they've ever had. That masturbating would've been more fulfilling. And the guilt and disgust they feel toward themselves afterward was horrible. Have you discussed with your husband how he felt about it? His reaction to it afterward without judging him, or condemning him first? What drove him to pay for this? What was he thinking at the time? Have you asked him any of these, and actually listened without making him feel as though you have already judged and sentenced him?

 

IMO, you can focus on how horribly wrong you feel he is and let it rip your relationship apart, or you can attempt to understand how he felt, place yourself in his shoes for a moment and consider his view. Let him explain his actions and his feelings without feeling that you are going to attack him or hold it against him. Re-create the open communication that was lacking when he strayed. If the communication had been present previously, then this probably wouldn't have happened. You can accept your portion of the responsibility in this, or place all blame on him so that you can feel like the martyr and vindicated for shutting him out now. Or make him jump through impossible hoops until one or both of you get tired of the circus thats created and finally end the relationship for good.

 

At this point you have closed yourself off to listening to him, or attempting to understand him. You feel hurt, betrayed and lied to. Understandable. However, you can't judge his actions based on how you saw the situation. You have to take all of the circumstances into account. Otherwise you've narrowed your view to such a degree that the bigger picture is lost to you. And at that point, you're making a decision based on limited knowledge and understanding. Once you see both sides clearly, and he feels he is free to discuss his feelings and thoughts in an open, non-threatening situation, then you can make a good decision on what to do. But a decision made on only half the picture results in poor decisions.

 

Go to a marriage counselor if you wish to save your relationship. Or listen to the above posters and make him pay for his mistakes until he realizes that you won't forgive him, and he can never discuss freely how he feels in the relationship without you using this against him for the rest of his life.

[shocked-n-shaken]

I have listened to him with an open heart and mind. That is part of the struggle. I do accept responsiblity for my part of the rough patch, as I stated.

 

I know my actions contributed to his feels at the time of the incident. However, we were still married & living in the same house. We had had discussions about how our ability to communicate was becoming more and more difficult. I suggested we go talk to someone, his reply was I he doesn't need to talk to anyone or have anyone tell him he is wrong. I further explained, it's not like that, we each express a point and counsellor keeps us on track and helps us explore the issues.

 

It was a week to the day after this conversation he went for the hand job.

He did confirm it wasn't that good, that he felt so alone and wanted contact.

 

I just wonder why he would pay the money and degrade himself to have physical contact but wouldn't pay the money and lower himself to see a counsellor?

 

I don't want to end our marriage, but it isn't fair for me to punish him either. I am trying to sort through if I can get over this, without hurting him or stringing him along. I am trying to be as fair as I can, to me , him and our family.

 

I am not looking to even the score, I am just looking to get over this the best way I can and not set myself up for a future of the samething.

[JadeStar]

"I just wonder why he would pay the money and degrade himself to have physical contact, but wouldn't pay the money and lower himself to go see a counselor."

 

 

Chances are thats because him paying for this little sexual activity is something he wanted to do. Going to a counselor doesn't seem like something he cares to do. So why should he pay out money for a counselor? However, you could mention to him that there are some free counseling services out there, if its the money thing. Just look in your phone book or google counselors in your area that provide free services. I doubt its really about the money though, its probably more along the lines becasue the rub and tug was something he wanted to do and didn't mind paying money out for.

 

 

 

 

Jade

[blind_otter]

I just wonder why he would pay the money and degrade himself to have physical contact but wouldn't pay the money and lower himself to see a counsellor?

 

There's still many, many people not only in the US but all over the world, who don't agree with the idea or even the concept of counseling. I know a lot of men like this. So, in my mind, the fact that he didn't want counseling is pretty normal. Hell, my Dad has the worst PTSD from the Korean war, but he'd rather die of hyper tension than talk about his feelings. It seems weird to me, but I remind myself that he is not me, has different thoughts, feelings, and holds different things in high regard than I do.

 

It seems like he was lonely, wanted some kind of comfort. Many men are socialized to receive sexual touch as comfort, because it's not "manly" to get hugs. Some guys won't even give a cuddle unless it's either before or after intercourse. Men think of sex and sexuality very differently from women, for the most part. Biologically even, it makes sense. They have different plumbing and different hormonal interactions, and associate sexuality with different things.

 

That said, I agree that since you intend on persuing the relationship further, you guys need to talk it out. But I don't think he did this with the intention of hurting you, I mean he loves you, right?

[shocked-n-shaken]

I am pretty sure he would be open to counselling now. He says he will do anything.

 

But what I am having trouble with is now he is doing it to get back in the good graces, where as before no way no how was he going.

 

How do I gauge his intentions now? He has said I pretty much have a free ticket to do what I want. This doesn't make me feel better about the situation.

 

I asked him of the roles were reversed and I had given a hand job, what his reaction would be. He said he didn't even want to think about, but he admitted he would be very angry, probably wouldn't talk to me for days and probably would be able stand the sight of me - he doesn't know if he would be able to get pasted it.

 

He can't believe how good I am being about it, other that not really touching, we are openly communicating about the usually daily stuff and this problem. We are having dinner as a family and carrying on about our daily routines. He said he wouldn't be able to do that if it were me that had strayed.

 

I realize, I am not him. But he fully grasps the situation I am in, in trying to deal with this.

[933KJL]

Not to pry, but the rough patch might have a lot to do with this. Were you withholding sex from him for a long time? Women (a lot of times unwittingly) use sex as a weapon and get into this reward/punishment deal and it always drives the man away.

 

The fact that he paid for it indicates that he probably was not sure if it was over--otherwise he would have gone and picked up some floozy.

 

Perhaps even he did not know it was "that" type of place. There are many massage parlours that are just that--and if you ask for something else, you tend to be tossed out the door. Maybe he was indulging himself in a massage and it was offered, and Carpe Diem? I might be so inclined to do it as well!

[Walk]

shocked-n-shaken, I have a lot of respect for how well you are approaching this situation. Good for you.

 

IMO, I would set up an appointment with a marriage counselor, and let him know that it will be a long term thing, not just a couple of sessions. Just so he doesn't enter it with the thought that he only has to put up with it for a short while.

 

I'm of the mindset too that marriage counseling, or any counseling, really doesn't help. And I hate talking to strangers about personal issues. Hate it. So I can understand him balking at going. It wouldn't necessarily mean he's stringing you along by agreeing to go at this point. It may just be that he's realized this is a bigger problem then he can resolve on his own, and he's admitting outside help would be good. It's hard to say without being inside his head.

 

I have to say again, you really seem to have a good head on your shoulders. It may help for you to see a MC on your own, just to discuss how you feel and what you are going through right now. The stress this has created must be tremendous on you. Make sure that during all this, that you take the time and space you need to keep yourself strong for you and your kids.

[shocked-n-shaken]

Withholding sex as punishment - no. Interested in having sex with him no, not at the time. I quite enjoy sex and just wasn't feeling any connection with him due to our fighting and he also wasn't interested or didn't make any moves to the indicate otherwise.

 

He knew. They repeatedly asked him if he was a cop and he had heard that this place was one of el repute.

 

Picking up a floozy would of been too much work and a risk of no reward.

 

So, in your opinion the fact that he paid for it, indicated he was unsure about the state of our marriage, but the get it for free would have been a clear choice to end the marriage?

[shocked-n-shaken]

Thank-you

 

I think I do need to talk to someone - privately. This isn't something I can discuss with anyone close to me as it would forever jade them against him.

 

Thank God for these forums.

 

It really helps getting all the different views and encouragement.

[flavius]

I wonder why the comparison with "if you had given a hand job." The analogous situation would be if you had gone and gotten a paid-for hand job, isn't it? Why isn't the analogy about YOUR carnal gratification?

 

This whole thread leaves me wondering whether the whole initial marriage problem was over a lack of sexual and romantic attention (like the thousand other LoveShack threads on that subject.)

 

It is so common though for wives to forsake their promise to their husband by simply "fading out" of the bedroom scene because "they are tired, they just don't feel like it, how-come-all-men-ever-want-is-sex, he-ignores-me-all-day-then-he-thinks-I-should-be-all-over-him-at-night" or the hundred other ways some wives tell their husbands that they just don't care anymore. "I demand your commitment but I'm unmoved your passion. Hey, why don't you love me any more?"

 

Men are so often condemned for separating sex from love, but the "post-sexual wife" is equally guilty, separating love from sex. It is really just "respectable infidelity", cheating with your pants up. Of course the "post-sexual wife" clings to her divine right to enforce the celibacy of the husband.

 

Boy that's really reading a lot into it, ins't it. But then good family men usually don't feel like their marriage is over one day, then bounce right back all committed the next. EXCEPT when they are feeling sexually rejected -- they become like yo-yo's -- because sexual attention is how men generally measure whether their commitment is appreciated and worthwhile.

 

So am I wrong? What would Mr. Shocked & Shaken say about it?

[Pink_Tulip]

Shocked- I can really relate to something you said.

 

You can read the longer version of my story somewhere on this forum, but the short version is, my husband for years shut me and the kids out emotionally, physically, mentally. He treated us with disdain and comtempt. His focus was his career, and we were in the way, basically. After years of this I had an emotional affair with someone. He found out, and I was ready to leave. After having someone pay attention to me for that short amount of time after being starved for so long, I refused to go back to my husband and that life. And yes in those years I BEGGED for counseling, talked my mouth off, cried, threw tantrums, anything and everything to get his attention. I simply wasn't that high up on the priority list.

 

When I decided to leave b/c of this other man, he was the one crying and begging, even set up marriage counseling on his own for us. We were in it for over a year, and I will tell you, a LOT of that was me asking, why in the #### didn't you put even HALF this much effort into the marriage BEFORE it came to this? Then we wouldn't even ###### be here!! I was SO angry at the fact that he waited until I was out the door to do something. It was like, if he cared as much as he says, why wasn't he at least NICE to me all that time? You know? I can't explain it. But I just couldn't forgive b/c I was so angry about that.

 

I finally came to the conclusion that he, like so many people in the world, fell into a pattern. I never did anything with my threats. I had taught him that all he had to do was ignore me, and I'd go away, and he wouldn't have to do anything at all to change b/c I wasn't going to make him. I am so angry at myself for allowing that to go on for so long. I should have given him a wake up call, rather than let my marriage deteriorate the way it did. It was a LONG road back.

 

Anyway, I agree that this is something you two can work through, and your marriage can be stronger as a result. You are just going to have to make the choice to forgive him and accept that he did it, rather than try to intellectualize it and understand it and rationalize it etc. b/c you will never be able to. We all do irrational things when pushed to our limits. Are there days, even now, when I think about those years and get mad at my husband? Heck ya! No one is perfect. But if you accept that this is a long process, but most likely well worth it for your marriage and your family, you can do it. Good luck.

[Bastet]

when you are in a situation like this one to realize they didn't anything 'to you'. He didn't go out and do what he did to piss you off or hurt you or even to get even. Chances are he hated the experience and will never do it again. But as women, when something like this happens we feel like it's directed at us. So while trying to deal with our own feelings we lose sight of what drove our man to do what it was he did in the first place.

 

This is totally different than if he put his time and energy in to a relationship, even a shallow one, that gave some level of intimacy with another woman. He wasn't looking for a replacement, he was looking for a release. And as much as we like to joke around about men, their drives are more physical than ours.

 

For what it's worth, I think you should forgive him but definately seek out counseling, for both of you. You need to understand that nothing has been done to you here, even if it hurts really badly. He needs to understand that behavior like that won't be tolerated anymore, even if during a rough patch or even separation if you're working on getting back together.

 

You can get through this. I wish you good luck!

[Walk]

flavius:

On the flip side... the second a woman says anything about the level of affection he shows her, he'll throw a hissy fit. Or God forbid she critize his sexual prowess in bed. Or the times she's sick and he treats it like the maid did a no call no show. But if he's sick, the world must stop!

 

If you want to take this into broad generalizations like this flavius, then you're not addressing the posters problem. You're attacking her for a percieved problem that may or may not have occured.

 

If you're attempting to bring to light a difference in levels of satisfaction that may not have been achieved for both partners in this marriage, then there was probably a less hostile way of bringing that up.

[Walk]

Pink_Tulip, sounds exactly like my marriage. Completely. Except I went through with the divorce.

[flavius]

Actually I was just asking. Women usually don't perceive this problem as a problem, and many men are unable to bring it up because they feel guilty about their sexual passion. So the frustration manifests as arguing, man feels hopeless, and BAM he suddenly has a sticky rubber glove on his belly. Now he's got this OTHER issue, and another reason why he won't be getting love for a long time, and more guilt...problem compounds and BAM the children have their clothes divided between Mom's house and Dad's.

 

So I figured it was worth asking. If the vivid presentation of the question upset Mrs Shocked, I am very, very sorry. Of course I know I'm only stabbing in the dark -- this is just a discussion forum after all, not our Sunday School class.

 

I'm not talking about egregious exceptions ("do me, bitch, even though you're bleeding from the ears...", etc), I'm talking about a lifestyle divide that creeps in innocently. She and her husband sound like nice folks, and she seems to regard him pretty highly.

 

W/regard to prowess, every couple has one member who's "better" than the other, I suppose. Does that cancel the sexual dimension of a relationship? Hope not.

[shocked-n-shaken]

Sorry your marriage ended in divorce. I hope you have found new happiness.

 

My husband is a very driven in his career and was treating us like we were disposable. Never calling when he was going to be late, leaving us sitting around the dinner table like jackasses. Working 28 days straight. I appreciate that he works hard. But there was no balance in his life, I would live on less to have a harmony at home. He is the seek material gain over time with his family. He saw the error of his ways and has since made efforts to change, as always change is slow but we were doing so well . . . . .

[blind_otter]

Sorry your marriage ended in divorce. I hope you have found new happiness.

 

My husband is a very driven in his career and was treating us like we were disposable. Never calling when he was going to be late, leaving us sitting around the dinner table like jackasses. Working 28 days straight. I appreciate that he works hard. But there was no balance in his life, I would live on less to have a harmony at home. He is the seek material gain over time with his family. He saw the error of his ways and has since made efforts to change, as always change is slow but we were doing so well . . . . .

 

I wonder if he ever bothered to explore why he was coping with reality using an addiction to work? Or did he just say he would change for you?

 

Because with issues like this, he needs to explore why his coping mechanisms are as they are, not just try to change. Then you end up with someone like a dry alcoholic, trying desperately to change but unable to ocmpletely follow through because he lacks the skills necessary to create something within himself to fill that void.

[Elyssa]

 

It is so common though for wives to forsake their promise to their husband by simply "fading out" of the bedroom scene because "they are tired, they just don't feel like it, how-come-all-men-ever-want-is-sex, he-ignores-me-all-day-then-he-thinks-I-should-be-all-over-him-at-night" or the hundred other ways some wives tell their husbands that they just don't care anymore. "I demand your commitment but I'm unmoved your passion. Hey, why don't you love me any more?"

 

This is pure and utter BS. "wives to forsake their promise"??? So now sex is a "right" the husband has over the wife? Wrong!

 

Sex is something beautiful that occurs between two people, and it should be given freely, without feeling forced to do so because men think it's their "right" or because they're afraid he's going to run off with somebody else.

 

If he doesn't care enough about her to keep his dick in his pants when she merely does not wish that kind of contact, he simply does not deserve it to begin with!

 

-Elyssa