Marrying and Dating Outside of Your Class

[cutegirl]

So far from my personal research in google and from friends I learned that to be more high class you can do these things:

 

- For a woman always wear good and expensive shoes and an expensive purse. The purse should not be cheap looking or logo'd out, because logos = low-class. It shouldn't be too ostentatious, but something low-key that another rich person would recognize, think less Dior and LV, more Hermes... ?

It should be exclusive and not something the general masses would be able to acquire.

 

-Learn proper etiquette about using forks and knives correctly. I wasn't aware of this either, but apparently it has to be placed at a certain angle at a certain exact spot, you don't just put it at the side of your plate.

 

-If your a man you need an expensive watch

 

 

 

This is something also interesting I found from a book review from amazon.com reviewing a professor's book on class:

 

Paul Fussell has concluded that overweight people are usually of lower class. Clothing and clothing color, also expresses class. A scarf is considered upper class, simply because it is useless.

 

A person wearing a white shirt and white pants can be considered to be upper class while a person wearing blue is thought to be middle class, and a person wearing purple is considered to be of lower class.

 

Too much jewelry can also lower a person's class. Flashy jewelry represents middle to lower class, while simple, elegant jewelry represents the upper class. An upper class watch is very simple but the more the watch does, the more middle to lower class the watch becomes. Also, simple accessories such as neck ties and hats can raise or lower one's class. A necktie, is upper class while a bow tie, is lower class.

 

Hats that have adjustable straps and brand names are lower class hats while simple, leather or white hats are upper class hats.

 

A house's surroundings, accessories, and architecture represent a person's class. A driveway that is longer and the harder to find is upper class. Next, the way in which the number of the house is presented, can raise or lower class. A simple display of the numbers are considered by Paul Fussell to be middle to lower class. However, a house with the numbers spelled out represents upper class.

 

A person's lawn also determines their class. The upper class will have trees in their lawn, the middle will have an immaculate lawn and the lower will have a discolored and unhealthy lawn. Also, the larger the windows the person has, the higher up they are on the class hierarchy.

 

Paul Fussell, also describes how a television represents one's class. The lower class might have one or two small televisions, the middle will have five televisions, and the upper will hide their televisions. Paul Fussell, also explained the drinking habits of the classes. The lower class will drink beer, the middle will consume bourbon and ginger, and the upper will drink white wine or other light alcoholic beverages. The upper class will have a cocktail hour in which they drink and talk prior to the dinner. The middle and lower classes will simply have their drinks during dinner.

 

The automobile also represents a person's class. The lower class drives dated Fords, Plymouths, Cheveys and Crystlers with bumper stickers stuck to the back of the car. The middle class drives new Fords, Plymouths, Cheveys, Crystlers, and S.U.V's. The upper class drives BMW's, Mercedes, and any other expensive car.

 

The only audible reference to class made by Paul Fussell was that of a person's speech. A person's vocabulary is a marker of their class. The lower class will use expressions such as "Golly!" or "Oh my Lord!" The middle class speaks very intelligently using complex words every now and again. The upper class speaks with complex words continuously integrating them into their speech. Also, little variances in a person's speech can express their class. The upper class tend to use less syllables.

When saying beautiful the upper use three syllables while the middle and lower use four.

 

The names given to clothes by people also can represent their class. The upper class call a tuxedo a "formal dinner jacket," the middle call a tuxedo a "tuxedo", and the lower call a tuxedo a "tux" In conclusion, Paul Fussell discusses many aspects of class. After reading Class, one can easily judge their own social standing as well as the class of others. Class, correctly depicts the signs, symbols, and customs of the American class system. Thus, by describing what class is, Paul Fussell provides the reader with a description of America.

[KnowHowLoveFeels]

Hi cutegirl,

 

You are very cute, indeed. I have never taken 'class' into much consideration... so that probably makes me upper class?

 

 

I also just realized that the fact that I am so into "class" and appearing "upper class" probably means that I'm middle-class Usually it's the middle-people who like to impress others and be flashy and buy things to impress, when the upper class are more subtle and sometimes even dress down.

 

I admit I'm like this sometimes, I like to be flashy and buy designer clothes sometimes and drive a luxury car because I think it will impress someone Sadly, I think these are are habits of middle-class people more than upper class.

 

What you've described here are personalities that can be observed in high and middle classes. Take Paris Hilton - a girl who is borne with the golden spoon and who dresses as ostensibly as possible. As for luxyry cars - I think that they are simply better cars.

 

I am guessing most were just born into high society, such as the Traina sisters for example (their mother is Danielle Steele). That blonde Mortimer girl appears to be the toast of the town now, I think she married into the family?

 

I didn't know that soft porn novel writers are considered high-class?

[cutegirl]

Hi cutegirl,

 

 

I didn't know that soft porn novel writers are considered high-class?

 

Well, I didn't either, but their daughters are always in Vogue, and celebrated for their fashion and sense of style. Plus they are at all the high society NY events.

 

http://www.viiphoto.com/detail-story3.php?news_id=7

http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/archive/oldnews6/traina.htm

 

Here is part of the article:

 

Vanessa and Victoria Traina, the high-profile daughters of novelist Danielle Steel and her ex-husband John Traina, glide effortlessly through each fashion moment: from last fall's hot velvet Yves Saint Laurent jacket to this summer's must-have Prada tie-dye dress and next fall's Marc Jacobs' sexy secretary look. No, these college students are not your average college student fashion junkies, who may love hanging out at the bargain racks and musky vintage stores but are unlikely to order a $16,000 Marc Jacobs mink coat as casually as calling out for pizza.

 

The Trainas, who have been called (to their chagrin) San Francisco's version of the Hilton sisters, have attended runway shows in Paris with their mom since they were little. Naturally, they wear clothing straight off the runways, carry expensive handbags and drive fancy cars (the day we talk, it's their mother's huge Mercedes G500 Jeep). The thin, blond, pretty head-turners have the smooth confidence that comes from a lifetime of European visits, high- wattage parties, weekends at the Napa ranch, sun-splashed days on the boat and easy access to all the best places.

 

Increasingly, the Traina sisters are getting noticed nationally; Victoria and one of her other sisters recently appeared in Women's Wear Daily; Vanessa and Victoria have also been mentioned in Vogue, which complimented them on their "creative personal style.''

 

"When hitting the Manhattan social circuit, the Traina sisters often don sleek Proenza Schouler and Stella McCartney,'' the magazine said. "Sitting front row at the Paris couture, they're in prim Chanel. When letting loose at their family's Napa Valley ranch, however, they wear boho-chic Marni.''

 

They look to inherit 50 mil. I think all it takes to break in the Mahattan/NY circuit is to be an heiress these days, doesn't matter what your parents do, as long as you are set to inherit a fortune you should be fine.

 

New hot "it girl" is Camilla Al-Fayed, daughter of Mohammad Al-Fayed who owns Harrod's. I think she will be "big". http://www.hellomagazine.com/celebrities/specials/hellocelebwatch/pagina_4_1.html

[jerbear]

cutegirl, good posts.

 

Really scary to read it and how it applies to me.

 

arg! I am moving from middle to upperclass...

 

I fit many of the described traits. My parents even criticized me. I even met and know my parent's bosses bosses.

 

Oh no.... I have left my past. Don't know if that is a good thing or not.

[Mz. Pixie]

Actually I see alot of true things in those posts as well as some not so true.

 

It's true that most people with money don't discuss it or what class they are in. My husband's family has money but they'd never be so crass as to discuss it. In fact, I didn't know until after we'd married! Because of that he's always socialized with a higher group of people than I have but luckily for me he didn't feel that I was lower class than him!!!

 

I think it's also a trend to be wealthy but to secretly appear like it's no big deal.

[jerbear]

Most of the old money are no where to be found. One would not know who they are even if they drove or walked past you.

 

It is at those private clubs and parties where you bump into them. Once I did not know who I talked to, it was someone high up's daughter. Good thinkg I did not upset her therefore him.

[cutegirl]

I think it's hard for someone who was not born into privilige to feel high class. Even walking around with designer purse, designer shoes, hair and makeup perfectly done I don't feel "high-class", I feel like an impostor and that I'm going to get "found out" and "discovered" anytime.

 

When I shop, I get butterflies in my stomach when I want to look at the designer section. For example in Nordstroms, they have a designer section where they sell Versace, Roberto Cavalli, Dolce & Gabanna and I'm always afraid to walk in there, I feel like the sales associates are looking at me and saying :"You don't belong here, get out!", even if I'm well dressed. And then I feel weird when I look at the price tags, 7k for a dress, ummm no I can afford it... But I always feel like an impostor like I don't fit there... It's more a mental thing than anything else. My bf is always says : Don't look at the price tag, if you want something just buy it! And I'm thinking wtf, I HAVE to look, what if it's something I can't afford. Plus if I'm looking at tags it doesn't necessarily mean I'm looking at the price, I could be looking at the size as well.

 

Most likely I wouldn't buy anything in there because I can't see spending huge amounts of money on clothes, but if it was something I really liked, who knows, perhaps I would. I would spend on shoes and especially a purse though, I think those things really do matter.

 

To be truly carefree and nonchalant about money I think you have to be born into it and be so rich that you never even have to worry about ever NOT having money. If you have been poor or more modest you can never be really non-chalant because you're always worrying in the back of your head.

[jerbear]

there was a saying:

 

If you have to ask, you can't afford it.

 

I hate it when sales people do the whole glance and evaluation with the look.

[Alexandra]

I have not read the whole thread so apologies in advance although this will be one of the rare strictly personal experience ones no therapist cap on.

 

It started out when I got locked in the house when I was maybe 13 or 14 and insisted on going on a date with a boy. He was just a boy to me. He was "the son of a truck driver for Christ's sake!!!" to my parents.

 

As it became more and more apparent that I'll date whomever I please the locking transformed into reluctant acceptance accompanied by the odd "Uh well what did you expect, his mother never made it to high school afterall" from then.

 

Advancing in age I found I was doing the locking myself soon enough though. Although, for the most part, for other reasons. Namely I have a severe "IQ and education fetish" hence somehow it went well with the "snobish approach" my upbringing should have installed but for different reasons.

 

As my view on who "HE" should be crystalized (sp) I knew for a fact he'd have to be quite a few years my senior, the posessor of an outstanding IQ and EQ, come from a family with a tradition in education, have a diploma and a few relationships under his belt.

 

Ironically -as with most other things in life- my husband is the opposite on all counts except for the diploma and the Qs:) However, to even things out my family went bankrupt meanwhile -that's downwards on the class system, innit;) - and he was born in one of the few countries on earth where there is really NO notion of social classes whatsoever. "Sadly" I might add.

[Woggle]

Money does not make the person. I grew up in a housing project where my family was one of 2 white families in the whole complex and now I am very successful and wealthy but I have not changed. I am still the same person and people are surprised when they find out I am wealthy because I do not flaunt it. I would rather spend it on things I enjoy and travelling instead of status symbols.As for marrying pitside of your class it depends on the person. My fiance comes from an upper middle class background but she doesn't act it at all. She is very down to earth and not a snob.

[cutegirl]

Also, I think it's very difficult to move up in class. I will probably still stay in middle class forever maybe upper-niddle. Making 250k-300k a year is considered upper-middle class but it's still MIDDLE class, not upper.

 

I think some people mistakenly think that they make a few hundred k that they are upper and sadly they are not.

 

People who have made fortunes in their lifetimes are considered lower-upper class such as Bill Gates, Donald Trump. They are still not considered upper-upper class. Their kids will. You can only be upper-upper class through an inheritance.

 

Here is the chart

 

* Upper-upper class. "Old money." People who have been born into and raised with wealth.

* Lower-upper class. "New money." Individuals who have become rich within their own lifetimes.

* Upper-middle class. High-salaried professionals (i.e., doctors, lawyers, corporate executives).

* True-middle class. Professional with salaries and educational attainment higher than those found among lower-middle class workers (i.e.. professors, managerial office workers, architects)

* Lower-middle class. Lower-paid professionals, but not manual laborers (i.e., police officers, non-management office workers, small business owners).

* Upper-lower class. Blue-collar workers and manual labourers. Also known as the "working class."

* Lower-lower class. The homeless and permanently unemployed, as well as the "working poor."

 

 

It's depressing to think that even billionaires are not upper-upper but lower-upper...

[Woggle]

It's a damn shame that this society does not do more to help people move up and with the people running this country right now they will make sure the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

[RecordProducer]

I dated for 6 years a guy that was totally below me in every sense and married a guy who was pretty much below me.

 

In both cases I was smarter, more educated, I come from a family of cultured intellectuals while their parents were very common and low-class behaving people. My parents and grand-parents read books, have many interests, and use nice language. They are well educated, well-rounded, and had been great at school and university.

 

My exes' parents curse and swear, talk about laundry, pooping, etc. and speak the trashy, minimal language. They had bad grades at school and didn't even attend more than elementary school. You could see the influence of that on my exes. Their mentality was sexist and we had different interests. They were both materialists too. My ex thinks that being gay is worse than being a murderer! He calls any woman who cheats on her husband "a whore." It's a part of his low-class mentality. My ex-BF didn't want to hear about having a daughter. It had to be a son. I am sorry he has a son actually!

 

I could go on and on with the examples... Anyway, money or looks are not things that determine class in my book.

[Mz. Pixie]

To be truly carefree and nonchalant about money I think you have to be born into it and be so rich that you never even have to worry about ever NOT having money. If you have been poor or more modest you can never be really non-chalant because you're always worrying in the back of your head.

 

I can see this. I'm probably that way. For the first time in my life, I don't have to worry about money since I married my H. Don't really have to worry about retirement- I'm still going to save for it- but it's not as big of a worry as it was before.

 

That's nice but when my H wants to buy me something nice it's wierd for me. He got me a very very nice necklace for Mother's Day from the most exclusive jewelry store here. If I mentioned the designer name you'd recognize it. I didn't really care for the style, it was too over the top for me. I took it back and ordered a ring by the same designer. It's like even when he splurges on me or tells me to splurge on myself I can't even wrap my mind around it. Just not used to it.

[SmoochieFace]

It's a damn shame that this society does not do more to help people move up and with the people running this country right now they will make sure the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

 

Agree and it's also a shame that people in general are so hung up on this *class* thing. I'd say just live your life the way you want and quit being preoccupied with what others think. You live for YOU and your values - not for society and it's values.

[SurpriseSurprise]

I think it matters less now then it used to. I know with my fiancé she has better education PHD vs BA. She makes twice as much as I do. Her family had money to put her through school and this made a big difference. At first I felt funny about it. She could afford to do more things then I could and buy what she wants. I would have to be on a budget. For a man it is very awkward to not be the one who does not make more or have a more prestigious job. There are times I feel that. She has never held it over me or made a comparison. In the past it would have been much more noticeable but now if she picks up the check no one thinks anything about it. For the most part if you enjoy the same activities, humor and have chemistry it doesn't matter.

[SmoochieFace]

I think it matters less now then it used to. I know with my fiancé she has better education PHD vs BA. She makes twice as much as I do. Her family had money to put her through school and this made a big difference. At first I felt funny about it. She could afford to do more things then I could and buy what she wants. I would have to be on a budget. For a man it is very awkward to not be the one who does not make more or have a more prestigious job. There are times I feel that. She has never held it over me or made a comparison. In the past it would have been much more noticeable but now if she picks up the check no one thinks anything about it. For the most part if you enjoy the same activities, humor and have chemistry it doesn't matter.

 

I dunno SS. I suppose it depends on where you live and the cultural climate of the area. I live in an area that is highly materialistic and snobbish so your situation would be quite rare here.

 

The DeeCee area sucks big time...

[a4a]

For the most part if you enjoy the same activities, humor and have chemistry it doesn't matter.

 

I find this true in my own life. Including mutual goals and so forth.

[Noos]

I think there are two ways you can conceptualise class. (see - I used the word "conceptualise" - I went to university...and I spelled conceputalise with an "s"...I didn't go to university in the U.S.)

 

There is the class you refer to in the economic sense - e.g.the Rockefellers and the Vanderbilts are upper class.

 

There's the class you refer to in the snese of being refined, cultured and having appropriate manners - i.e. Paris Hilton is rich but she has no class.

 

I didn't come from a wealthy family but I went to a private school with middle class and upper class kids because my parents sacrificed everything to send me there. I've had to make the most of my education because there is nothing to fall back on in my family. If I don't make my own way, I will be destitute.

 

I have acome across upper class people whose status and money means everything to them and they push those standards on others. My sister is having problems withy this at the moment. Most of her friends work but came from very wealthy families and married wealthy men. They ask her when she is going to move from her current suburb to the wealthier suburbs that they live in. It's a subtle putdown - telling them that their home is good enough.

 

The upper classes are rife with a couple of types of people - people who don't appreciate their wealth because they have been spoiled all their lives and have had no exposure to other lifestyles, and the people who have status anxiety.

 

My experience with these people is so common that I don't think I would date a solicitor or an accountant or stockbroker because they are too hung up on money and status. They probably wouldn't date me either because, while I have class - I don't have a lot of money.

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't go out with a lower class guy who likes going to the speedway and doesn't like reading books.

 

I do have a friend who is married to a partner in law firm and am pretty sure that she wouldn't have marrid him if he had been a plumber. It hink that's pretty sad.

 

With regard to ambition, would anyone date someone who lived off an inheritance and didn't have to or want to work? Would you think less of them if they paid their bills with their inheritance but spent all their time surfing? I thinking about Princes of Malibu types and children of celebrities here.

[cutegirl]

I do think class is quite important though. For example, my boyfriend right now is what I consider more "low-class", he's not very educated. I myself am not highly educated either, but I consider myself more knowledgeable about a lot of things. My bf asked the stupidest question a few days ago "What is the difference between the Revolutionary war and the Civil war? Isn't that the same thing?" And I was like OMG, you have got to be kidding me.

 

It's also annoying because I make a lot more money than he does and whenever I want to do something he can't afford to pay for himself, so I end up having to pay for us both. For example, I wanted to go the Madonna concert this Saturday, and tickets are around $500 each for a decent seat from an on-line broker. So of course he can't afford to pay for it, so I have to pay for BOTH our tickets. It's just very annoying.

 

He's also lower class in other ways such as in his demeanor and the way he acts. He grew up more "thug-like" and is not exactly someone you would consider refined, although he probably considers himself refined.

 

So I do think it's better to date someone within your "class", it just makes things a lot easier.

[RecordProducer]

No I would say not, but I chose to leave home as an adult at that time.

 

Upper class does not mean a wonderful home enviroment. However I was exposed to the finer things in life at a young age. I did continue a relationship with my family but not living with them. I paid for my own plane tickets to Europe for family vacations, cars, lodging, ect.... not riding on a free meal ticket certainly taught me the value of a dollar and helped form my work ethics to attain my own money. Quite thankful for that. The Getty way

You said you left home and started supporting yourself when you were 15. What did you do to be able to travel to Europe, buy cars, vacations, etc? Were you a model?

 

Regarding money and classes, we can easily imagine a low-class redneck living in a trailer in the US and not having money to buy a soap. But in many other contries, there have been millions of people who were/are very poor yet very classy and intellectual. Many of the famous writers, scientists, and artists we all know had barely had anything to eat during their lifetimes. It didn't make them low-class. You can take the fortune and title from a prince and he will still be a prince; and you can give them to a peasant, but he will remain a peasant.

 

The reason why we tend to relate money to class is because of the commonly accepted syndrome of "elite," that consists of rich people, great minds, big artists, great politicians, etc. When you're born in a golden palace, with the best nannies and education, you're exposed to all the things that make someone noble and classy. After a few generations, you become the highest class, because money enables you to easily buy all the elements of the "elite" (not that there aren't any exceptions, of course).

[RecordProducer]

IMy bf asked the stupidest question a few days ago "What is the difference between the Revolutionary war and the Civil war? Isn't that the same thing?" And I was like OMG, you have got to be kidding me.

So what's a civil war?

[cutegirl]

So what's a civil war?

 

Not any civil war, but the one between North and the Confederates versus the war between American and Britain for independence, he didn't know that they were two separate wars and the difference between them. It's like I have to explain things when we're watching tv cause he will ask retarded questions.

 

I don't want a guy too upscale and wealthy either, because my philosophy is that a man with more money is more likely to cheat because they have the means to and are likely to have more opportunities. So either way I'm screwed anyways. Date someone poor and you have to pay for them. Date someone rich and they are more likely to cheat. Of course a poor man can cheat too, I just think the chance of that happening is lower than a wealthier man.

[Outcast]

You clearly have no respect for this guy, which in itself betrays a lack of class. Let the poor guy go and find a woman who thinks well of him. You don't love him so you must just be using him. Again, not classy at all.

[jerbear]

Not any civil war, but the one between North and the Confederates versus the war between American and Britain for independence, he didn't know that they were two separate wars and the difference between them. It's like I have to explain things when we're watching tv cause he will ask retarded questions.

 

I don't want a guy too upscale and wealthy either, because my philosophy is that a man with more money is more likely to cheat because they have the means to and are likely to have more opportunities. So either way I'm screwed anyways. Date someone poor and you have to pay for them. Date someone rich and they are more likely to cheat. Of course a poor man can cheat too, I just think the chance of that happening is lower than a wealthier man.

 

Not necessarily, think of the trades people; heck I'm attracted to that younger attractive female eletrician when I'm a "suite guy". Anyway, a poor man can still cheat, think of the countless milkman, postman, plumber, analogies out there!

 

The wealthier man would have to main thoughts, money THEN sex.

 

It applies to women too, house husbands at home, she the professional and breadwinner will still have opportunities also.

 

I disagree with the poor & wealthier analogy. Chances are similar just different venues.