Staying together for the kids...

[1Gravity]

We've been married 17 years. Most of the marriage we differed on money sex and childrearing. I'd also say a lack of general respect as well. We tried counseling for nearly 2 years which resulted in the counselor quitting US! The counselor indicated that she saw where we needed to go but didn't see us moving there.

 

Anyhow, we decided that the marriage was over but that we were concerned about the impact of divorce on the kids (read "The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce.") and for all intensive purposes agreed to stay married for their sake. We have 14 and 9 year old daughters which means 3 years until the first leaves for college and many more years until the youngest is ready.

 

We have a very low conflict marriage, neither of us drinks or gambles or has vices that are noticeable to the kids. Another good read is "How to Stay Married for the Kids and Still Be Happy." It indicates that low conflict relationships work well but if you're yelling and screaming at each other or if there's violence, then you might as well end the marriage.

 

I might also add that we haven't had sex in 14 months. She has no desire for sex and hasn't really had any since the kids were born. Sex and money have always been a point of contention with us. I have wanted much more sex, and to have her more of a participant (she's totally passive) and she could go months/years without any.

 

The money issues have related to giving charitably and her control/contribution. We agreed that she would stay home with the kids until they were in school, they she would return to work. Well, the kids have both been back in school for over 5 years but she refuses to go back to work. When she teaches as a sub on occaisioin she spends her money however she sees fit. My money is "our" money but her money is "her" money.

 

Those are the issues that came out in counseling and have remained non-negotiable.

 

I'm posting here because I have seen the range of relationships but not "staying together for the sake of the kids".

 

Anyone else in this boat?

 

best,

 

1Gravity (Gravity was taken)

[a4a]

My parents were divorced and I have a wonderful step father.

I am pretty darn happy, I survived the divorce.

 

I would think that you are probably setting very poor examples to the children not having affection between you and your wife. Just because you do not beat the hell out of each other or scream does not mean it is a good relationship example to set for your kids. Zero love or real caring..... just tolerance of each other.

 

IMHO.

 

As for the money...... where is YOUR MONEY?

 

To be blunt you sound like a freaking doormat. You are making excuses to let her rule the roost and you sound miserable to boot.

[tikigods]

Children are very preseptive, and know when things aren't right, the thing is if you are staying for them then you are going to be doing them more harm then good in the long run.

[2sunny]

My parents were divorced and I have a wonderful step father.

I am pretty darn happy, I survived the divorce.

 

I would think that you are probably setting very poor examples to the children not having affection between you and your wife. Just because you do not beat the hell out of each other or scream does not mean it is a good relationship example to set for your kids. Zero love or real caring..... just tolerance of each other.

 

IMHO.

 

As for the money...... where is YOUR MONEY?

 

To be blunt you sound like a freaking doormat. You are making excuses to let her rule the roost and you sound miserable to boot.

 

I agree a4a-

 

Kids learn by watching your interactions more so than your words.

 

They most likely are learning a warped sense of loving behaviors between two married individuals.

 

Think about this, do you want to continue to waste several more years of your life living a life of emotional deprivation - or move along and have a sense of happiness on a daily basis?

 

Sometimes we have to come to the conclusion that life is just too short to live it in unhappy circumsatnces.

 

You are not doing your kids an great favors by staying.... IMHO

[Mirage222]

Why "waste" the rest of your life being unhappy? Your kids are going to grow and move on and you will be sorry that you stayed in such a sad situation.

 

My parents divorced when I was really young.. my mom died young, my dad who's he? Am I ok?? Absolutly! If anything kids become stronger from split marriages. It is a quick learning experience...

 

But, YOU SHOULD BE HAPPY, DON'T YOU DESERVE TO, TOO?

[catgirl1927]

I don't think it's doing the kids any good for you guys to stay together and silently hate one another. It honestly sounds like you're staying together because she doesn't want to have to get a job more than anything else.

[1Gravity]

Children are very preseptive, and know when things aren't right, the thing is if you are staying for them then you are going to be doing them more harm then good in the long run.

 

Children are perceptive, no question. According to the reserach, children are generally pretty happy in their environment regardless of their parents satisfaction. It's not an opinion, but a research based conclusion.

 

We don't think we're doing them a disservice otherwise we'd be done.

 

Thanks,

 

1Gravity

[1Gravity]

I agree a4a-

 

Kids learn by watching your interactions more so than your words.

 

They most likely are learning a warped sense of loving behaviors between two married individuals.

 

Think about this, do you want to continue to waste several more years of your life living a life of emotional deprivation - or move along and have a sense of happiness on a daily basis?

 

Sometimes we have to come to the conclusion that life is just too short to live it in unhappy circumsatnces.

 

You are not doing your kids an great favors by staying.... IMHO

 

Perhaps....however, the research suggests otherwise. Read "the unexpected legacy of divorce" for a few facts:

 

COD have sex much earlier

COD are much more likely to have substance abuse issues

COD are much more likely to drop out of school

2/3 of COD never have children

COD marry much later in life, if they marry

 

Just a few facts that influenced our decision.

[EndoftheRope]

We may soon be in the same boat. I think I'll look into the book you mentioned.

[a4a]

2/3 of COD never have children

COD marry much later in life, if they marry

 

.

 

I do not see a thing wrong with either of these at all.

As a matter a fact marrying later can have great benefits.

 

I am not sure why you posted to the forum?

[1Gravity]

I do not see a thing wrong with either of these at all.

As a matter a fact marrying later can have great benefits.

 

I am not sure why you posted to the forum?

 

I posted here because there may be others in a similar situation. Some may not have verbalized their status but realize that they are, in fact, together for the kids.

 

That's why.

 

The book "the unexpected legacy of divorce" follows 3,000 or so kids for 25 years. It's not a snapshot study but a long-term view of what kids endure, how they perceive their homes and their parents and how they worked through their issues.

[1Gravity]

We may soon be in the same boat. I think I'll look into the book you mentioned.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/031228974X/103-2442691-3449423?n=283155

 

It's called "Imperfect Harmony."

[Pink_Tulip]

Gravity, you can do studies and get whatever you want from them. Did this book say anything positive about the COD? Like, they were more independent than their counterparts? Or did they put a negative spin on even the positive things, like, the were considered 'loners,' (as opposed to being independent).

 

There is good and bad in every family, every life. I grew up in a family where my parents were EXACTLY like you and your wife. They NEVER fought once in front of me. They simply lived their lives peacably seperate in the same home. At the time, of course, I had no clue how it was negatively affecting me. But I have spent a lot of time both in regular counseling and with a sex therapist, and a lot of my issues can go back to mom and dad. I had no clue what intimacy was. Sex was just something you did. I hated being touched, holding hands, etc. b/c I never saw that growing up, and my parents never were physically affectionate with me. Obviously this is the extremely short version, but please do not tell people you are not hurting your kids. You are. Just b/c they are not going out drinking and have sex at 13 doesn't mean there is no damage. Sometimes the damage doesn't show up until they are in a relationship themselves, married with kids. This does not make the damage any less painful or relevent.

 

I understand what you are doing and why. But to say this is better for your kids than divorcing and allowing your kids to see both you and your wife with other partners who truly love, value, and yes, lust after eachother... I don't know about that one.

[catgirl1927]

I am unsure why getting married later in life and not having kids are listed as negatives. Those are choices, not flaws.

[1Gravity]

I understand what you are doing and why. But to say this is better for your kids than divorcing and allowing your kids to see both you and your wife with other partners who truly love, value, and yes, lust after eachother... I don't know about that one.

 

I'm not saying it IS better, just that it's what we have decided to do based on our experiences. I'd love for my kids to have a great marriage modeled for them but I'm afraid I don't have that to offer. I can't even ensure that the next (if there is one) will be any better.

 

It's what we've agreed to do. It can change anytime either one of us has had enough or doesn't think they can continue. It seems to be functional for the time being.

 

I like having unrestricted access to my kids, input as to where they spend their time and the other normal interactions that parents have. I've seen many families divided by divorce and then you have 1/2 the opportunity at best.

 

Again, I posted here because I might find a kindred spirit or two. I wasn't expecting as much negative feedback however.

 

I guess I'm not that interested in your opinion since you may have chosen a different way or may have been subjected to quite different circumstances. Not everyone gets to the place where this is an option. We have. Perhaps others have. Those are the folks I'm looking to hear from.

 

Thanks,

 

1Gravity (Gravity was taken)

[a4a]

Gravity, you can do studies and get whatever you want from them. Did this book say anything positive about the COD? Like, they were more independent than their counterparts? Or did they put a negative spin on even the positive things, like, the were considered 'loners,' (as opposed to being independent).

 

There is good and bad in every family, every life. I grew up in a family where my parents were EXACTLY like you and your wife. They NEVER fought once in front of me. They simply lived their lives peacably seperate in the same home. At the time, of course, I had no clue how it was negatively affecting me. But I have spent a lot of time both in regular counseling and with a sex therapist, and a lot of my issues can go back to mom and dad. I had no clue what intimacy was. Sex was just something you did. I hated being touched, holding hands, etc. b/c I never saw that growing up, and my parents never were physically affectionate with me. Obviously this is the extremely short version, but please do not tell people you are not hurting your kids. You are. Just b/c they are not going out drinking and have sex at 13 doesn't mean there is no damage. Sometimes the damage doesn't show up until they are in a relationship themselves, married with kids. This does not make the damage any less painful or relevent.

 

I understand what you are doing and why. But to say this is better for your kids than divorcing and allowing your kids to see both you and your wife with other partners who truly love, value, and yes, lust after eachother... I don't know about that one.

 

I totally agree......

 

However you are not part of a study.

 

As a matter a fact our friends both grew up in homes as above, they are now doing exactly what their parents did. Just living together for the kids. Dislike eachother but tolerate it for the kids and are polite in front of them. With full admission they state this in each others company. Of course the kids pick up on this.

[Pink_Tulip]

However you are not part of a study.

 

 

LOL! And never would I be, too many extraneous variables to be a good candidate I think...

 

In my case, even when I was madly in love, intimacy just wasn't wired into my head. Its embarassing to say I had to go to a sex therapist to learn how to accept my hand being held or back being carassed, but it is true. It took a lot for my therapist to finally accept I had never been molested, b/c that is how I presented.

 

Gravity, I am not getting on you, blaming you, calling you a bad parent. I am just trying to show you another side to your choice so you have ALL the information. You can do with my story as you please.

[Ladyjane14]

My parents are divorced, and I turned out okay. Well....mostly "okay" anyway. :lmao:

 

I was actually GLAD when they announced it. These were two REALLY, REALLY, REALLY mismatched people.

 

Not that I'm advocating divorce, mind you. But I'm thinking that unless your relationship with your wife changes at a very fundemental level, it's just a matter of time anyway.

 

What would happen if you went to a lawyer and asked your wife to sign a legal document which would prevent her from divorcing you on the grounds of adultery? If you actually brought her home a prepared contract and asked for her to sign off that you are no longer expected to remain monogamous within the marriage?

 

I bet it would take her TWO DAYS to scrape her jaw up off the floor.

 

But seriously, it's irrational to expect a healthy person to live monogamously in a relationship where SF is consistantly denied. Unless she's got some sort of medical issue, 14 months is RIDICULOUS.

[1Gravity]

LOL! And never would I be, too many extraneous variables to be a good candidate I think...

 

In my case, even when I was madly in love, intimacy just wasn't wired into my head. Its embarassing to say I had to go to a sex therapist to learn how to accept my hand being held or back being carassed, but it is true. It took a lot for my therapist to finally accept I had never been molested, b/c that is how I presented.

 

Gravity, I am not getting on you, blaming you, calling you a bad parent. I am just trying to show you another side to your choice so you have ALL the information. You can do with my story as you please.

 

Thanks. I find your comments about therapy quite helpful. I see my wife in what you write. She's never into any intmacy and denies any abuse yet finds comfort in distance and blanches at any attempts at intimacy.

 

Therapy is pretty fun once you get over the stigma! Sounds like you found it helpful. I did too.

 

Best,

 

1Gravity (gravity was taken)

[1Gravity]

My parents are divorced, and I turned out okay. Well....mostly "okay" anyway. :lmao:

 

I was actually GLAD when they announced it. These were two REALLY, REALLY, REALLY mismatched people.

 

Not that I'm advocating divorce, mind you. But I'm thinking that unless your relationship with your wife changes at a very fundemental level, it's just a matter of time anyway.

 

What would happen if you went to a lawyer and asked your wife to sign a legal document which would prevent her from divorcing you on the grounds of adultery? If you actually brought her home a prepared contract and asked for her to sign off that you are no longer expected to remain monogamous within the marriage?

 

I bet it would take her TWO DAYS to scrape her jaw up off the floor.

 

But seriously, it's irrational to expect a healthy person to live monogamously in a relationship where SF is consistantly denied. Unless she's got some sort of medical issue, 14 months is RIDICULOUS.

 

I guess that would be a "post-nuptial"??

 

14 months might seem ridiculous to you but we've gone 3 years once before. She claims it's never on her radar screen and that she thinks it's normal.

 

I do think she expects me to cheat, however. If I did, I'd be discreet and she would never know. I ordered seperate beds for our room. She didn't want them but I got tired of the "no touch" policy in our bed. She also likes to stay up late and comes to bed with a "flop". I think she doesn't want people to think we sleep seperately but we are about as seperate as two people can possibly be.

 

Thanks,

 

1Gravity (gravity was taken)

[travellingman]

Perhaps....however, the research suggests otherwise. Read "the unexpected legacy of divorce" for a few facts:

 

COD have sex much earlier

COD are much more likely to have substance abuse issues

COD are much more likely to drop out of school

2/3 of COD never have children

COD marry much later in life, if they marry

 

Just a few facts that influenced our decision.

 

I'm in a similar situation, except my daughter is 2 and a half. I'd be curious to see how those numbers hold up when you adjust for parents' educational attainment, and other socioeconomic factors.

 

We've both withdrawn emotionally and are leading parallel lives. For me, it's not just the impact on my daughter, but the fact that she does something funny and surprising nearly every morning before I go to work, and I'd miss that terribly. Still, I don't think I can do this for another 15+ years until she leaves the house.

[OzGirl]

For all the books that say COD suffer and turn out to do "worse" things for it, there is a credible book, based on research, which will state the opposite. Name your subject - there's books for and against it everywhere.

 

Let's face it. You're in a situation you don't like, but you tolerate, and you claim you are "doing it for the kids".

 

No you're not. You're doing it for yourself. And, you've posted here neither to get sympathy or opposition, but to justify your choices.

 

Hence, these books you read. Hence, the statistics on COD you posted.

 

You don't know what your kids will do, and I hate to take the pedastool out from under your feet, but they will, in their late teens and as adults, do whatever they want to, "good" choices or not.

 

Maybe, therefore, the best thing you can do is to teach them about independance, not co-dependance. Maybe, you can teach them to make wise choices, EVEN if it temporarily inconveniences other people and they have to make readjustments for it. Maybe, you can teach them they don't have to "tolerate" a life to please other people if it's not pleasing them. Maybe you and your wife can show them the mature way to exit a relationship.

 

I think your original post says a lot about YOU, not your circumstances. I think it says you're scared to change things. You're aware they're not right, but you're happier being with what you know, than taking a chance on what you don't know.

 

You post in a public forum, sorry, but you can't pick and choose who replies, or what comments they make. I've made mine, and to summarise, I think you're weak, you underestimate how well children can adapt, given a good mutually caring approach between the parents, and the traits COD often do have - which is not repeating the legacy of their parents, simply because they think that's what you do in life. That they see marriage is all but one thing that might make up who they are, what they do, and life is about freedoms and you have the right to end something if it's not making you happy.

 

Excuse and justify yourself however you wish. It's your life and your choice. Assuming your kids possible future behaviour is merely a consequence of your actions is grossly overestimating the ultimate percentage of influence you will have had on their decision making as adults, and grossly underestimating how much responsbility they will have, at that point, for themselves.

 

I made wrong choices in life. I didn't blame myself or my mother or my father for divorcing when I was a child. I made them, I own them, I fixed them, and I continue to endeavour to not do them again. You can't fix their problems for them - you can only help them learn how to find the tools to fix it themself.

 

There's massive benefits to you for staying in an apparantly unhappy family. Martyrdom often has the benefits of excusing yourself for not having the guts to fix your problems. Complaining about them is a much more rewarding past time, I'm sure.

[1Gravity]

I'm in a similar situation, except my daughter is 2 and a half. I'd be curious to see how those numbers hold up when you adjust for parents' educational attainment, and other socioeconomic factors.

 

We've both withdrawn emotionally and are leading parallel lives. For me, it's not just the impact on my daughter, but the fact that she does something funny and surprising nearly every morning before I go to work, and I'd miss that terribly. Still, I don't think I can do this for another 15+ years until she leaves the house.

 

Ya, what a struggle. 15 years is a very long time indeed. One of the most compelling things I read is that when kids learn about their parents getting divorced, the stop experiencing life as a child.

 

Interesting stuff. I'd have to say it was true in my case. Parents divorced when I was 12 and it got pretty wild after they split. I don't want that for my kids. Of course, as with any marriage, either one can decide to quit at any time. You can always get a divorce.

 

Thanks for your reply,

 

1Gravity (gravity was taken)

[1Gravity]

For all the books that say COD suffer and turn out to do "worse" things for it, there is a credible book, based on research, which will state the opposite. Name your subject - there's books for and against it everywhere.

 

Let's face it. You're in a situation you don't like, but you tolerate, and you claim you are "doing it for the kids".

 

No you're not. You're doing it for yourself. And, you've posted here neither to get sympathy or opposition, but to justify your choices.

 

Hence, these books you read. Hence, the statistics on COD you posted.

 

You don't know what your kids will do, and I hate to take the pedastool out from under your feet, but they will, in their late teens and as adults, do whatever they want to, "good" choices or not.

 

Maybe, therefore, the best thing you can do is to teach them about independance, not co-dependance. Maybe, you can teach them to make wise choices, EVEN if it temporarily inconveniences other people and they have to make readjustments for it. Maybe, you can teach them they don't have to "tolerate" a life to please other people if it's not pleasing them. Maybe you and your wife can show them the mature way to exit a relationship.

 

I think your original post says a lot about YOU, not your circumstances. I think it says you're scared to change things. You're aware they're not right, but you're happier being with what you know, than taking a chance on what you don't know.

 

You post in a public forum, sorry, but you can't pick and choose who replies, or what comments they make. I've made mine, and to summarise, I think you're weak, you underestimate how well children can adapt, given a good mutually caring approach between the parents, and the traits COD often do have - which is not repeating the legacy of their parents, simply because they think that's what you do in life. That they see marriage is all but one thing that might make up who they are, what they do, and life is about freedoms and you have the right to end something if it's not making you happy.

 

Excuse and justify yourself however you wish. It's your life and your choice. Assuming your kids possible future behaviour is merely a consequence of your actions is grossly overestimating the ultimate percentage of influence you will have had on their decision making as adults, and grossly underestimating how much responsbility they will have, at that point, for themselves.

 

I made wrong choices in life. I didn't blame myself or my mother or my father for divorcing when I was a child. I made them, I own them, I fixed them, and I continue to endeavour to not do them again. You can't fix their problems for them - you can only help them learn how to find the tools to fix it themself.

 

There's massive benefits to you for staying in an apparantly unhappy family. Martyrdom often has the benefits of excusing yourself for not having the guts to fix your problems. Complaining about them is a much more rewarding past time, I'm sure.

 

I'm glad I inspired such a lengthy response from you. Your thoughful opinions are welcome, even if I disagree.

 

Cheers,

 

1Gravity (gravity was taken)

[JamesM]

1Gravity, the children are important. I admire you for sticking with the marriage for the children.

 

I would like to say that 15 years gives you time to fix the marriage. If you read (or have read) my thread, you can see that fixing may payoff. I haven't read your total situation yet, but you can change your sitch.

 

I will make another post later when I read your background. I just so often see people say that children will get over it, but truly we as married adults owe it to our children to not only act like adults, but be an example of how we would want them to act like adults. Although there are definitely times that divorce is the only option, many people give up too easily.