God and Jesus

[blind_otter]

So lately I have been questioning things. I was raised Catholic and I was one of those earnestly serious kids who was very spiritual. I went to catholic school for 9 years and let me tell ya, I swear going to catholic school turns more people off from catholocism than anything.

 

I would venture to say that I have had some seriously sould-moving experiences with the divine. IMO, anyone can do this. You just have to tune in and be still for a long time. I learned to do this a lot when I was a child. So I happen to have a natural ability to sit still and meditate for hours, and I often meditated as a child, but I called it "prayer" back then. Now I've returned to calling my meditative practice prayer, because it feels right.

 

I had no religion for a few years, through high school. In college I converted to Buddhism hardcore. Going to temple, and meditation groups and retreats, studying various religions the whole time. It made me feel calmer, but I just don't know. It didn't fit.

 

Recently since I've been in AA I've been thinking a lot about faith and the "higher power" concept. I was really low when my BF broke up with me last week. And I was crying a lot and thinking how, I just want someone to love me completely, without attaching conditions. But that is just not humanly possible.

 

And I opened up the bible, of all things, and I found this quote (in my signature). I wonder if all that stuff about God calling you back to the faith is true.

 

I feel super cheesy admitting this. But I had the most bizarre urge to go to mass on Sunday. I resisted (hah). I was feeling like, that perfect love that I have searched for so desperately, is in God.

 

But my whole concept of God is different from the christian idea. I see no masculinity or femininity in it, and I reject the idea that Christ was perfect and that we can never be like him. I always thought Christ was saying that we all had "jesusnature" inside of us, and we could realize that we are also children of God by making ourselves more like jesus.

 

I reject a lot of the things that the catholic church professes. So why do I feel, like I need to go to mass and have confession? Leftover catholic guilt?

[NTB]

So why do I feel, like I need to go to mass and have confession? Leftover catholic guilt?

 

maybe your looking for someone to talk to who won't pass judgement or your looking for a higher connection than what you believe you already have.

[alphamale]

I reject a lot of the things that the catholic church professes. So why do I feel, like I need to go to mass and have confession? Leftover catholic guilt?

...because it was ingrained in you at a very young age, when the brain was flexible and sponge-like. You have successfully been indoctrinated with Catholic dogma.

[burning 4 revenge]

I have read in some of your other posts that you have had problems with your mother, and now you broke up with your bf and you are feeling vunerable. You want the comfort of unconditional love- to know everything will turn out o.k. in the end, maybe even the comfort of knowing your suffering means something.

 

All I can say is- have faith in yourself. Everything else will dissapoint you, everyone else will abandon you either directly, or indirectly. No one can control it, it is the way things are.

 

If you, a smart woman like you are, (and I know you are, I have read your posts), if you put your faith in Christ, at moments when you are lucid and reason has the upper hand you will feel as betrayed by Jesus as he was by Judas.

 

Go ahead and return to the church if it makes you feel better, but in your heart of hearts you know that these are just lonley men holding on to a discredited and antiquated tradition. Look at those who hold onto religion for hope. The weak and living dead and the self-delusional. Thats not you.

[blind_otter]

I rode by a church on my way back to work from lunch and it was saying something like "Congrats on joining god's kingdom" about a couple who died recently.

 

I was like, see THIS is why I can't stand christianity. I don't even really care that much about an afterlife and I certainly don't want to be floating around in heaven as...me. That's why I liked buddhism and the doctrine of karma.

 

I wrestle with this. I think that christianity is largely for those who aren't as open-minded or precocious regarding personal spirituality as I am. I have a relationship with my higher power but I feel this onerous responsibility to find some community of faith. But when I am around those who are really christian, it doesn't "fit" either.

 

I also cannot accept the whole idea of hell, or of people who don't believe in Christ going to hell. That is just dumb.

 

But I really like the idea of having regular religious practice. Is meditation by myself enough?

[NTB]

I certainly don't want to be floating around in heaven as...me.

 

 

the way i was told is when you go to heaven there will be no male or female form just you your soul and everything that was pain or suffering will no longer be. it will just be a time of happiness and a time of worship.

[blind_otter]

the way i was told is when you go to heaven there will be no male or female form just you your soul and everything that was pain or suffering will no longer be. it will just be a time of happiness and a time of worship.

 

There's the whole thing about thermodynamics that I have considered regarding the afterlife. Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed, but knowing that in regards to the reality of entropy.

 

I thought when I was little that we actually returned to God -- that we lost ourselves and became part of the energy that cannot be created or destroyed in the existing system of the universe.

 

I related that as an adult to the concept of anatman, losing the concept of "self" -- which is part and parcel of the experience of enlightenment...

 

Because I can see a lot of buddhism in jesus' teachings.

 

Just not in the whole christian faith.

[quankanne]

I swear going to catholic school turns more people off from catholocism than anything

 

prolly because it's more about the rules and regs and constricting stuff that make up Catholicism, as opposed to freely finding yourself in relationship with God without all those constraints. I think that's where our Protestant brothers and sisters have a leg up on us. But, all in good time.

 

is the idea that God calls you back to him cheezy? Maybe, but I also know it's true. It's not that he calls us back, but that we can hear his call. Same as any other relationship we experience, it's got to work in both directions to work, period.

 

I wonder if your being called back to him is expressing itself in the way that you were first taught, i.e., participating in the Mass. Factor out all the stuff like the priests, like the congregation around you, it's about you meeting up with your God in a place you have been taught where he resides. Maybe it's something that you subconsciously recognize as a place where you can find solace and peace, whether it's within the liturgy, in the presence of the bells and smells or even before the Eucharist? Especially now that things are going topsy-turvy in your world more so than usual.

 

But my whole concept of God is different from the christian idea. I see no masculinity or femininity in it, and I reject the idea that Christ was perfect and that we can never be like him. I always thought Christ was saying that we all had "jesusnature" inside of us, and we could realize that we are also children of God by making ourselves more like jesus.

 

we each see him through our own lens, and I'd daresay that what you were taught in Catholic school has evolved to something comprehensible to you as an adult. Because of your own spiritual journey and because as the Church strives to reach out to people, she becomes more in tune with them and so tries harder to speak in a way they can better understand.

 

So why do I feel, like I need to go to mass and have confession? Leftover catholic guilt?

 

Maybe you innately understand that there's something you can only get by attending Mass and through reconciliation? Especially if this is how you were originally schooled in the faith – you go back to what you know, though you bring your experiences with you when you return.

[burning 4 revenge]

The references to thermodynamics and entropy are interesting, but in the end it doesn't matter. What people consider an afterlife entails some sort of continuity of consciousness, and there is no evidence to support any such thing.

 

Who and what we are is the by-product of many complex mechanisms interacting in our physical human form. Even in this life, we continue to be recognized and recognize ourselves as the same person, yet we really aren't. A person at 18 is almost a completely different human being than that same person at 60.

 

There is no such thing as a cosmic conciousness, or eternity. All we have is ourselves and our empathy for one another and in a kind of way I think there is a tragic beauty to this that far eclipses any religion.

[quankanne]

If you, a smart woman like you are, (and I know you are, I have read your posts), if you put your faith in Christ, at moments when you are lucid and reason has the upper hand you will feel as betrayed by Jesus as he was by Judas.

 

Go ahead and return to the church if it makes you feel better, but in your heart of hearts you know that these are just lonley men holding on to a discredited and antiquated tradition. Look at those who hold onto religion for hope. The weak and living dead and the self-delusional. Thats not you.

 

good worldly advice, B4R. But maybe someone in otter's situation is reaching beyond the worldly as he or she looks to put faith and trust into something bigger than what can be seen/felt with the human senses.

 

people don't "hold on" to religion for hope – they express their hope through their faith, whatever flavor that faith takes. If faith expressed through Catholicism – or other branches of Christianity, of Judaism, of different faith systms – is merely "discredited and antiquated tradition," why has it lasted all these generations? There's got to be something more to it than just sheer stubbornness to keep the status quo!

 

who you call weak and the living dead and self-delusional are not so in the eyes of God, and for those folks, that's all that matters. Not worldly observations of people who don't know them from boo ...

[blind_otter]

is the idea that God calls you back to him cheezy? Maybe, but I also know it's true. It's not that he calls us back, but that we can hear his call. Same as any other relationship we experience, it's got to work in both directions to work, period.

 

I guess not. It's not something I talk about a lot, my personal relationship with the divine. I remember times when I was a little girl feeling what I can only express as "filled with the holy spirit" -- an intense, bodily ecstasy that came from worship and prayer.

 

Maybe it's something that you subconsciously recognize as a place where you can find solace and peace, whether it's within the liturgy, in the presence of the bells and smells or even before the Eucharist? Especially now that things are going topsy-turvy in your world more so than usual.

 

Yes, very much so. Quiet contemplation in church was where I first discovered the practice of meditation. I liked being there in those times, when no one else was there, or when the priest was offering the sacrament of reconciliation, when the few people in the church were quietly focused on getting right with God.

 

Maybe you innately understand that there's something you can only get by attending Mass and through reconciliation? Especially if this is how you were originally schooled in the faith – you go back to what you know, though you bring your experiences with you when you return.

 

THIS is what I was looking for, thanks!

 

I have felt my spirituality as almost a visceral experience. And wondered if our point in existence was to go out into the world, as Jesus disappeared for so long, and return to Godhead in the afterlife to enrich the being of God -- not with our individuality or our selves, or even the tiny myriad details of our lives, but through the depth and fearful strength of the spiritual and emotional experience of the individual human.

 

That we are merely like -- the spritiual fingers of the hand of God?

 

Does that make sense? Through us, the extension of the divine, God sees, touches, feels, experiences? And as fingers we forget that we are attached to a hand that is attached to an arm that is attached to the bright and unknowable power that is the divine?

[quankanne]

All we have is ourselves and our empathy for one another and in a kind of way I think there is a tragic beauty to this that far eclipses any religion.

 

at some point, people ask themselves, "Why am I here? What is my purpose?" And that spurs a deeper spiritual dialogue within. There's more than just existing on this physical plane, merely here and now. Otherwise in the grand scheme of things, the worth or beauty of our lives shouldn't matter.

[blind_otter]

All we have is ourselves and our empathy for one another and in a kind of way I think there is a tragic beauty to this that far eclipses any religion.

 

at some point, people ask themselves, "Why am I here? What is my purpose?" And that spurs a deeper spiritual dialogue within. There's more than just existing on this physical plane, merely here and now. Otherwise in the grand scheme of things, the worth or beauty of our lives shouldn't matter.

 

Maybe my problem is that I have been distracted by the fallibility of man.

 

I have not had faith. I mostly don't have faith, not in myself or other people. It's a reflection of my lack of faith. Or vice versa.

 

I have trust issues, in my realtionship if God!

[burning 4 revenge]

All we have is ourselves and our empathy for one another and in a kind of way I think there is a tragic beauty to this that far eclipses any religion.

 

at some point, people ask themselves, "Why am I here? What is my purpose?" And that spurs a deeper spiritual dialogue within. There's more than just existing on this physical plane, merely here and now. Otherwise in the grand scheme of things, the worth or beauty of our lives shouldn't matter.

 

It doesn't.

[quankanne]

That we are merely like -- the spritiual fingers of the hand of God?

 

Does that make sense? Through us, the extension of the divine, God sees, touches, feels, experiences? And as fingers we forget that we are attached to a hand that is attached to an arm that is attached to the bright and unknowable power that is the divine?

 

I've heard it called "being God's/Jesus' hands, helping him by doing his work in our world and in our time." Which it think is the other side of the coin as you describe it!

 

Quiet contemplation in church was where I first discovered the practice of meditation. I liked being there in those times, when no one else was there, or when the priest was offering the sacrament of reconciliation, when the few people in the church were quietly focused on getting right with God.

 

pretty cool to think a small girl innately understood the power of meditation, of being, while in a church setting. I think most of the rest of us were terrorized by the thought of what to say in the confessional without getting too deeply into trouble with the priest!

 

seriously though, I'm thinking that deep down, because you've ID'd a quiet place for getting deeper meditation, your mind is turning you back to that place to find what you need when you need it most. Kind of like a "happy place" when things go to pot ...

[blind_otter]

thanks quank!

you've given me a lot to think about, and useful information. Helped me to clarify my thoughts. You finger of God, you.

 

If I were a finger of God, I would probably be the middle one!

[quankanne]

I have not had faith. I mostly don't have faith, not in myself or other people. It's a reflection of my lack of faith. Or vice versa.

 

in light of recent events, do you feel that maybe you've been called to review that lack of faith with new or refreshed sight?

 

It doesn't.

 

so what keeps you hanging around this pothole called life?

[burning 4 revenge]

I have not had faith. I mostly don't have faith, not in myself or other people. It's a reflection of my lack of faith. Or vice versa.

 

in light of recent events, do you feel that maybe you've been called to review that lack of faith with new or refreshed sight?

 

It doesn't.

so what keeps you hanging around this pothole called life?[/quote]

 

What keeps you here? Woulnd't you rather be in Heaven with Jesus?

[blind_otter]

I have not had faith. I mostly don't have faith, not in myself or other people. It's a reflection of my lack of faith. Or vice versa.

 

in light of recent events, do you feel that maybe you've been called to review that lack of faith with new or refreshed sight?

 

 

I think so. When I was raped I lost my faith. It was a childish reaction. I was angry with God for not protecting me but I didn't see then the value in learning difficult lessons in life. I feel a lot more balanced since I have beomes sober.

[bluetuesday]

wow otter. i have so much to say to you about this subject, primarily because so much of what you said in your original post is similar to thoughts i've been having for years, which have crystalised these past few days.

 

you are an old soul, girl. i knew this already, but the level of spiritual maturity in this one statement tells me for sure.

 

But my whole concept of God is different from the christian idea. I see no masculinity or femininity in it, and I reject the idea that Christ was perfect and that we can never be like him. I always thought Christ was saying that we all had "jesusnature" inside of us, and we could realize that we are also children of God by making ourselves more like jesus.

 

this, i believe, is the real message jesus came to earth to spread. the christian church contains fragments of teaching from jesus that is true, but the message that god is within you and you too can be like christ was jesus' central message.

 

of course, this means that the description of christ as 'the' son of god instead of 'a' son of god, cannot be true. jesus said we could do all the things he did, therefore with enough will to let god work in our lives and enough will to work for others, rather than ourselves, we too are as much god as he was. <bring forth the cries of 'blasphemy!>

 

i don't think scripture is clear enough on this issue. i think the only way you and i can have learned this is by heeding that still small voice in the soul that lets us distinguish half-truth from absolute truth.

 

it is right to reject a lot of things that the catholic church teaches - and i say that as a catholic! think about this. jesus came to open men's hearts to god. he wanted us to be like him. he taught us that we could do what he did. we are all part of god in that way. god is the creator and nothing was created that was not him. including us.

 

any church or teaching, i don't care what it is, from mystical new age churches, through catholicism, islam and buddhism, is only a vehicle to god. and a simplistic vehicle at that. all contain grains of truth, but none are the whole truth.

 

think about this, and i'll reference the bible since you clearly have that book. the bible flat out states, and infers through the actions of jesus, that to worship anything other than god is idolatry. now jesus was an over-turner of static beliefs. he was a rebel against the status quo. and he didn't come to earth to start another religion. he came only to show us the way to god within us.

 

it seems amazing to me that despite jesus teaching that laws cannot be written in stone, they must be living and written on the heart, a christian church sprung up in his wake which has laws written in stone. 'we are right and if you don't follow us you are not saved' is a law written in stone. many christians today believe that by following the rules, they are right.

 

what they don't see is that hailing a church or teaching as right, any church or teaching, is making an idol of that church or teaching. perhaps all organised religion is idolatry. that's something to think about.

 

one of the rules jesus gave us is DON'T FOLLOW THE RULES. the very act of there being rules should show people that the rule setters are not following jesus' own rules to have no law but god's. to listen to no one but god.

 

churches try to get around this by saying 'ah yes, but WE have been inspired by god to teach... a b and c. they are blind to fact that ONLY seeking god, who lives and therefore changes, is the way to truthful spiritual freedom and enlightenment.

 

what i'm saying could sound like i am advocating spiritual wilderness where nothing is sure and you have nothing concrete to hold on to. this couldn't be further from the truth. just don't hang on to anything earthly. listen to god within your heart, and he will lead you on the narrow path to him.

 

your question about why you felt the need to go to church... who knows? perhaps this is just symptomatic of spiritual yearning, and being a human you sought an earthly outlet for a spiritual need.

 

there is nothing wrong with going to church, to feel fellowship with your neighbour, to spend time talking to god, to symbolically commune with god by taking the sacrament. but i suspect you will not find what you seek there.

 

an evolving soul, once it realises that earthly churches are, by their nature, flawed, stops looking for outward spirituality and begins the inward journey that leads to true salvation. you sound like you're ready for this path. with all my heart i wish you joy and transforming love on it.

[hotgurl]

BO

I have been having the same feelings. Was raised Catholic but left the church at a young age but lately I have had the feeling like I need to go back. Like it might help me.

 

I agree that I don't agree with the church doctrane and am trying to find my own way. I wish I had time to really study religion including buddism etc..

[blind_otter]

of course, this means that the description of christ as 'the' son of god instead of 'a' son of god, cannot be true. jesus said we could do all the things he did, therefore with enough will to let god work in our lives and enough will to work for others, rather than ourselves, we too are as much god as he was. <bring forth the cries of 'blasphemy!>

 

AHA!

 

This is great. It's what I have believed for a long time, since I was exposed to the teachings of buddhism. Thich Nhat Hanh (sp?) cites Jesus Christ as one of his spiritual ancestors, incorporating the whole ancestor worship thang from Vietnamese history into the teachings of the buddha. I loved that idea when I first heard it. It takes "Jesus is my homie" to another level.

 

any church or teaching, i don't care what it is, from mystical new age churches, through catholicism, islam and buddhism, is only a vehicle to god. and a simplistic vehicle at that. all contain grains of truth, but none are the whole truth.

 

This is the crux of the issue, at least part of the crux. Who am I kidding, there is no crux. In any event -- I think I labored under the delusion that one religion had to contain the absolute truth. Although I rationally knew that all spiritual paths are paths that lead the individual to divine truth, I totally paid into the doctrinal teachings of catholocism and operated from a place of real fear -- that if I did in fact get it "wrong" that would have dire consequences.

 

what they don't see is that hailing a church or teaching as right, any church or teaching, is making an idol of that church or teaching. perhaps all organised religion is idolatry. that's something to think about.

 

This is interesting to consider. I never thought about it that way, but it really is quite accurate.

 

what i'm saying could sound like i am advocating spiritual wilderness where nothing is sure and you have nothing concrete to hold on to. this couldn't be further from the truth. just don't hang on to anything earthly. listen to god within your heart, and he will lead you on the narrow path to him.

 

Oh the concept is terrifying! Terrifying -- listen within this dried out blackened heart? I fear that my rejection of the conceptual ideas of God has led to a deeper more disturbing rejection of myself. That has manifested itself through such horrible neglect and self-abuse.

 

an evolving soul, once it realises that earthly churches are, by their nature, flawed, stops looking for outward spirituality and begins the inward journey that leads to true salvation. you sound like you're ready for this path. with all my heart i wish you joy and transforming love on it.

 

Awesome. Thank you! I think the sanskrit word for a "seeker" is sadhaka. No, I'm not talking about The Who.

 

I think that my ponderings recently, definately precipitated by emotional turmoil -- but not necessarily caused by it, since I have had the turmoil for a while, and the seeking only for a little bit -- was the realization that I had placed a lot of blame on the wrong thing. I blamed the faith, and the spirituality that drives the faith, for the shortcomings of the fallible humans beings who were involved in the faith.

 

I think that it was almost like pushing through a thick veil, the veil of a childish impatience with things that I did not yet have the capacity to understand which led to an almost willful ignorance that was based on the negative panoply of emotions that seem to come to mind much more readily than the chirpy, happy emotions.

 

In other words, the devil made me do it.

[alphamale]

BO

I have been having the same feelings. Was raised Catholic but left the church at a young age but lately I have had the feeling like I need to go back. Like it might help me..

here's the thing HOTGIRL... you've already been indoctrinated at a very young and tender age. Most people are not that religious when they are young. Folks tend to get more and more religious as they age and have kids and families and then approach death. Very few people convert to another religion because they feel most at home with what their parents practiced and what they themselves practiced as a child. Basically, the Catholic Church has a hold on you for life.

[quankanne]

f I were a finger of God, I would probably be the middle one!

 

lol ... and I'd be the one that gets shook, with God say, "tsk, tsk, behave yourself!"

 

What keeps you here? Woulnd't you rather be in Heaven with Jesus?

 

the grace of God, honey, the grace of God. And while I'm here, I plan to enjoy every minute to the fullest while keeping my eye on the prize.

 

jesus said we could do all the things he did, therefore with enough will to let god work in our lives and enough will to work for others, rather than ourselves, we too are as much god as he was. <bring forth the cries of 'blasphemy!>

 

blasphemy? Not if you consider yourself as created by Him and bearing the spark of divine. We seek God because he is in us and we are of him; therefore, we respond to his call to be with him. I think that's Jesus' message, to hear the voice of God and to follow Him. Not be bound by earthly things.

 

I do agree with your statement not to get so caught up in the trappings of religion as you discover your faith – as you've put it, religion is merely the vehicle to bring you closer to God. Responding to a spiritual yearning by being among a group of believers or even inside a structure you've been told all your life is a house of God isn't tangling yourself in religion, though, because for many people, that too is vehicle for their spiritual journey.

 

who is to say that what someone finds in that environment isn't useful to that journey? Only the seeker can give that answer.

[hotgurl]

here's the thing HOTGIRL... you've already been indoctrinated at a very young and tender age. Most people are not that religious when they are young. Folks tend to get more and more religious as they age and have kids and families and then approach death. Very few people convert to another religion because they feel most at home with what their parents practiced and what they themselves practiced as a child. Basically, the Catholic Church has a hold on you for life.

 

I agree with you. I was telling someone it's in my blood and I am a recovering Catholic. I don't agree with the church on almost well, everything. But's it what I seek for comfort at times eventhough I am uneasy with the concept of God, the Catholic one at least.