God and Jesus

[alphamale]

I agree with you.

no s***? wow!

[quankanne]

they feel most at home with what their parents practiced and what they themselves practiced as a child.

 

you've hit upon a strong truth there, Alpha – we tend to seek what we learned at the knee of our parents when we were children. Some of the folks I've interviewed have talked about falling away from the Church – of attending other churches, of rejecting religion, of backsliding – but as they mature, at some turnpoint event in their lives, they go back to what they know. I daresay it's true regardless whether you're Catholic, Protestant or otherwise. You go back to what you know, and often that's what you were taught as a kid.

 

Oh the concept is terrifying! Terrifying -- listen within this dried out blackened heart? I fear that my rejection of the conceptual ideas of God has led to a deeper more disturbing rejection of myself. That has manifested itself through such horrible neglect and self-abuse.

 

St. John of the Cross talks about the dark night of the soul, of that severe test of faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul). Scary, yeah ... but think of it this way: there's pretty much only one direction after you've hit ground bottom. And that's up.

[alphamale]

– but as they mature, at some turnpoint event in their lives, they go back to what they know. I daresay it's true regardless whether you're Catholic, Protestant or otherwise. You go back to what you know, and often that's what you were taught as a kid.

most religious organizations and parents know this fact so that is why they try to indoctrinate the children at a very young age. Before the kids are old enough to choose another religion or path. This is how religions perpetuate themselves.

[hotgurl]

no s***? wow!

 

we should celebrate this occasion. bottle of wine at my place?

[alphamale]

we should celebrate this occasion. bottle of wine at my place?

ok but i want oral sex afterwards

[blind_otter]

I think there's nothing wrong with seeing beauty and the sacred in everything around you. In fact it may make life better.

[quankanne]

not according to folks like Burning 4 Revenge. Life is meaningless, therefore looking for the sacred or seeing the beauty of it is meaningless, because we are meaningless.

 

to each his own, eh?

[blind_otter]

not according to folks like Burning 4 Revenge. Life is meaningless, therefore looking for the sacred or seeing the beauty of it is meaningless, because we are meaningless.

 

to each his own, eh?

 

I guess. If I believed that, I would be dead right now. So. You know. I'm looking into that St. John of the Cross thing, thanks for the tip.

[quankanne]

you're welcome.

 

EVOO ... Rachel Ray?

[blind_otter]

you're welcome.

 

EVOO ... Rachel Ray?

 

hee hee hee

[bluetuesday]

I think that my ponderings recently, definately precipitated by emotional turmoil -- but not necessarily caused by it, since I have had the turmoil for a while, and the seeking only for a little bit -- was the realization that I had placed a lot of blame on the wrong thing. I blamed the faith, and the spirituality that drives the faith, for the shortcomings of the fallible humans beings who were involved in the faith.

 

you know what i love? people like you who can look objectively at situations, even deeply hurful personal ones, and know where the motivation for their feelings comes from. no blackened heart could do this.

 

i believe that a soul probably chooses its earthly circumstances because it knows what it has to learn. that you, otter, have lived through some rotten times (in this life) and yet are clearly learning from them, is awesome to me. it's proof on a most basic level that growth and change is possible where the will for it exists.

 

and this whole blaming the wrong thing is so interesting. it IS misplaced and childish to blame faith, per se. the fact you recognise that makes me want to do this!

 

if people are mired in bad karma and having s***ty lives, it's the easiest thing in the world to blame an authority you have no influence over for the problems you have. so people blame their parents and their teachers or the fact they're poor (or rich) or ugly (or beautiful) yada yada yada.

 

and since the highest authority in existence is god, god is also perceived as being the authority it's least possible to influence and therefore the prime target for misplaced blame. lots of people hate god for the bad stuff that happens. but... well i have a whole other theory about why bad stuff happens. another time, maybe.

 

anyway. so lots of people blame god (or religion, or faith) because it's easy and IT MEANS THEY DON'T HAVE TO CHANGE.

 

being willing to take responsibility for yourself, knowing that affecting change is possible if you're willing to change yourself, is crucial to growth. i see you on this path. and THAT'S worth a little chorus line of dancing bunnies!

 

:bunny: :bunny: :bunny:

[Outcast]

I blamed the faith, and the spirituality that drives the faith, for the shortcomings of the fallible humans beings who were involved in the faith.

 

Lots of people do that.

 

You'll be ok to put toe across the doorstep of a church and butt in a pew to attend Mass. There is no brain-reading mechanism operated by the rule-bearers to ensure that you believe every tenet precisely and perfectly.

 

I guess I was lucky that my churches (all Catholic) were more liberal than most, but I'm a long way from the early grade-school impression that Catholicism was the only route to God. By the end of grade school I understood that God doesn't restrict Love to only certain persons who have memorized and obey the rules. High school gave me the opportunity to study world religions and see the innate truth of Love/God in them all.

 

You want to return to Mass and to some of the traditions because, even despite its flaws, the church was where you did experience the Divine and in ways, it's home. You can visit and draw what you need from it without subsuming your intellect and will to rules - you knew that as a child and you know that now. So go. You may find what you seek in the choir or the service or the people or the homily - or the almost-empty building.

[burning 4 revenge]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then He is not omnipotent.

Is He able, but not willing?

Then He is malevolent.

Is He both able and willing?

Then whence come evil?

Is He neither able, nor willing?

Then why call him god?

 

-Epicurus

[Bogun]

Thats a ummmm controversial avatar you've got there burning 4 revenge.

 

But I really like the idea of having regular religious practice. Is meditation by myself enough?

If you've learnt from vietnamese monks BO I'm guessing you've learnt from theravadan buddhists, so remember that you have to do the right kind of meditation to develop wisdom. Theravadan buddhism teaches sila, samadhi and panna (morality, concentration and wisdom). Its great if you can sit for hours, but the point of stilling the mind is to make it powerful so you can cut through the hindrances usually present in our minds and see things as they really are.

 

Blind otter, your avatar is hot. Something about a woman sucking her thumb, if thats what shes doing lol.

[burning 4 revenge]

Thats a ummmm controversial avatar you've got there burning 4 revenge.

 

 

If you've learnt from vietnamese monks BO I'm guessing you've learnt from theravadan buddhists, so remember that you have to do the right kind of meditation to develop wisdom. Theravadan buddhism teaches sila, samadhi and panna (morality, concentration and wisdom). Its great if you can sit for hours, but the point of stilling the mind is to make it powerful so you can cut through the hindrances usually present in our minds and see things as they really are.

 

Blind otter, your avatar is hot. Something about a woman sucking her thumb, if thats what shes doing lol.

 

yeah, i woke up in the night and thought maybe if someone in his family were ever on this board it is insensitive. it underlined my above poin, but i'm getting rid of it

[blind_otter]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then He is not omnipotent.

Is He able, but not willing?

Then He is malevolent.

Is He both able and willing?

Then whence come evil?

Is He neither able, nor willing?

Then why call him god?

 

-Epicurus

 

Of course this is all assuming that God has the exact same concept of good and evil that finite human beings who can only conceive of linear time.

 

I think that anyone who questions reality, or has altered their personal experience of reality as much as I have has questioned in this way.

 

For me, though, I have been through a lot. That's why I turned to Buddhism initially, the 4 noble truths....all life is suffering. The path to end suffering lies in the eightfold path. My experience taught me that inimical nature of life very intimately.

 

But to me, it was like being in the bottom of the oubliette taught me the God wishes for us to employ the free will that we have, to chose to walk in the light, to chose to walk in the dark. To have faith, well it's like loving someone -- you must have faith in them to really love them. Trust that they love you, too, because you never really know. Actions, words, those are tangible proof, but easily manipulated to selfish ends.

 

Sometimes the person you love, it seems that they failed you. It's easy to place blame, and use that to push them away. I did that with God. I did that with myself. The way I treated myself was a reflection of my lack of faith.

 

In many ways I have come to understand that the faith I have in myself, the trust and love for ME, is a reflection of the faith, trust, and love that I have in the infinite.

 

And the laws of thermodynamics.

[Guest]

this, i believe, is the real message jesus came to earth to spread. the christian church contains fragments of teaching from jesus that is true, but the message that god is within you and you too can be like christ was jesus' central message.

I am not sure what you mean by “be like christ”. 1 Cor 12:12-20 is clear about there being many “parts” that form “one body”.

So what is Jesus’ message?

John 6:28-29, 35-40

28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

 

35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Jesus clearly is not a rebel since he is serving God.

of course, this means that the description of christ as 'the' son of god instead of 'a' son of god, cannot be true. jesus said we could do all the things he did, therefore with enough will to let god work in our lives and enough will to work for others, rather than ourselves, we too are as much god as he was. <bring forth the cries of 'blasphemy!>

He also called himself the “Son of Man”.

one of the rules jesus gave us is DON'T FOLLOW THE RULES. the very act of there being rules should show people that the rule setters are not following jesus' own rules to have no law but god's. to listen to no one but god.

One reason organized religion exists is to keep heretical ideas such as this out of the mainstream. It is also an oxymoron because you cannot “follow the rules” and “not follow the rules” at the same time.

churches try to get around this by saying 'ah yes, but WE have been inspired by god to teach... a b and c. they are blind to fact that ONLY seeking god, who lives and therefore changes, is the way to truthful spiritual freedom and enlightenment.

I don’t think evolution applies to God. Like wheat, we are here to grow.

there is nothing wrong with going to church, to feel fellowship with your neighbour, to spend time talking to god, to symbolically commune with god by taking the sacrament. but i suspect you will not find what you seek there.

A church is a community. By worshiping together, each member’s faith should be strengthened for the week ahead.

[quankanne]

interesting quote from Epicurious, and lovely SHOJ photo. As faceticious as you're trying to be, you're doing a great job of spreading the word. Maybe an image of Divine Mercy would be equally appropriate, as it's "come back home" week in the Church?

 

back to ol' Epicurious – if we leave it all up to God to make the decisions and be responsible, then free will is for naught. We'd be puppets, after all, and therefore wouldn't need to think or act independently.

[bluetuesday]

i'd go as far to say that i know god doesn't create the evil in the world. i know who does, but it's not a palatable answer.

 

fundamentally, humans fail to understand the meaning of the phrase 'you reap what you sow'. just as we fail to understand the meaning of karma. just as we fail to understand why we must treat other people as we want to be treated.

 

god is a creator, and we as his children are created in his own image. that doesn't mean we look like god, because god has no form. it means we are also creative spirits, with power just like god to create our reality.

 

isn't it possible that the universe a mirror, which reflects back to us what we put in? couldn't this be the reason why every pure spiritual leader throughout history has told us to be nice to other people - because that which we sow, we will also reap?

 

god doesn't create the evil in the world, god is prefect and cannot create anything bad. you and i create evil. humans have been vile to each other for millennia and the material world reflects that. i know this is a radical idea, that the world looks like this because we think it does, but actually the evidence is there in the scientific world.

 

einstein (hardly a religious figure or a dubious scientific example) discovered that energy and matter (what we can see) are the same thing. that's partly what E=mc2 means, that energy and matter are the same thing in different forms. and what blind_otter keeps refering to as the first law of thermodynamics is that energy cannot be destroyed, it can only be transformed.

 

now loads of people believe it when books like 'the power of positive thinking' show that if you visualise something long enough and clearly enough, you can make it happen. footballers visualise scoring goals over and over again because they know it helps to turn that image into a real goal, even though they don't know HOW it works.

 

so if what we focus our energy on can actually take material form since matter and energy are actually the same thing, isn't it possible that we have a universe full of pain and suffering because we repeatedly have negative thoughts and the will to cause pain and suffering?

 

i'm not talking about on a personal scale. i personally don't wish to cause pain and suffering to a starving child in the sudan. but if self-interest and negativity has been the focus of human attention for thousands of years (and it has), isn't it just possible that what einstein has proved is that the energy we use up being negative, has material consequences?

 

yeah, it's a radical thought. that we cause the evil because we refuse to stop being selfish. but perhaps it is ONLY by turning around and sending out love to the universe (via our fellow man) that the love will be reflected back to us and we can begin the long process of creating a world where negative energy doesn't have the free rein it currently has.

 

this message of love and being good and not focusing on our own needs is crystal clear in scripture and in non-christian writings, but we have failed to understand it. we look with our eyes and think what we can see is reality because we fail to see our part in creating it. and being fed the lie that we can't change things because we don't have the power god has, is the ultimate red herring.

 

yet, since organised religion tells us we need to put our faith in an external saviour who will save us if we believe in him, we feel no desperate need to change. thereby humans keep being mean, the universe keeps reflecting that meanness back to us and wars rage all around us.

 

in other words, epicurus knew s***.

[2sunny]

As I have pondered my Catholic upbringing - I as an adult, have had to realize that certain things that were ingrained into my head as I was growing up - I would rather leave behind.

 

Not to say that what I learned doesn't affect my moral belief system.

 

Just that I choose to set aside the guilt thing, confession, etc.

 

If I feel like going to church it is nice - I think as a catholic girl, it gives me a support and comfort when I am there. Kind of a familiarity that is like comfort food....

 

I embrace the things I agree with as a catholic and I leave behind the things I don't. I think God would appreciate my honesty about what I choose to embrace! I am a good, happy, kind hearted, loving and honest person.

[blind_otter]

I've been thinking about the fundamental attribution error a lot because I am guilty of that practice. Attribute my success to me! Yay me, ego ego ego. Attribute my failures to God! how could you fail me? Ego ego ego.

 

Ego interferes with the innate connection to something greater than yourself. Buddhism deals a lot with that struggle to deflate the ego to a manageable size, the doctrine of no self (anatman) and that clinging to self prevents one from piercing the veil of enlightenment and the ecstatic union with the universe.

 

It's the same thing. I think. It feels better to do this. To blame your failures on that outside force. Your fears, the degredation, the anguish of the human condition. Yet that is the HUMAN condition, isn't it?

 

What is the whole concept of "I" anyways? A tool to lubricate the social system. And as a tool, it is useful. The mistake comes when we forget that the tool is merely to be used toward some end, with purpose, and instead we become so lost in its functioning that we begin to think of it as part of who we are.

[bluetuesday]

clinging to self prevents one from piercing the veil of enlightenment and the ecstatic union with the universe.

 

if people absorbed nothing else in this lifetime but the truth contained in this one statement, the world would be transformed for ever.

 

you want a resolution to the middle east conflict, religious bigotry, war, hunger, hatred, suffering, loneliness and despair?

 

otter just gave you it.

[burning 4 revenge]

' The next day as they were leaving Bethany he was hungry. Seeing from a distance a fig tree in leaf, he went over to see if he could find anything on it. When he reached it he found nothing but leaves: it was not the time for figs. And he said to it in reply, "May no one ever eat of your fruit again!" And his disciples heard it.'

 

11 Mark : vs 12-14

 

 

:lmao: :lmao:

:lmao: :lmao:

:lmao: :lmao:

[burning 4 revenge]

' When I was child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.'

 

1 Corinthians v 11

[blind_otter]

Last night I watched this special on PBS (surprise surprise, I always watch PBS.) about the wailing wall, the cave of letters, and Shimon Bar-Kohbah's rebellion against Roman rule.

 

It makes me even more sure that Jesus was a true rebel in the highest sense, and that his message was distorted by subsequent generations in order to further ends that were the direct result of clinging to the self, the ego, and the concept of "I". As if earthly power can be transformed into some divine right.

 

I was driving yesterday and I got irritated at the person in front of me and realized that was pretty much like being irritated at myself.

 

To eradicate the ego is an almost insurmountable obstacle for many.