God and Jesus

[blind_otter]

I don't know if I can post this here, but anyone interested in jewish history or biblical history,

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/scrolls/about.html

[burning 4 revenge]

If Jesus existed at all, I don't think he was a rebel like Bar-Kochba. He might of rebelled against Mosaic Law, but non-violence seems pretty fundamental to his worldview.

 

If Jesus existed then he was an Apocylyptic prophet who was heavily influenced by John the Baptist and the Essenes. He was more interested in some metaphysical happening brought on by the power of God. If you read the gospels closely, it is pretty evident that Jesus was expecting the end of the world and the physical ressurection of all of the dead to be close at hand.

[blind_otter]

If Jesus existed at all, I don't think he was a rebel like Bar-Kochba. He might of rebelled against Mosaic Law, but non-violence seems pretty fundamental to his worldview.

 

If Jesus existed then he was an Apocylyptic prophet who was heavily influenced by John the Baptist and the Essenes. He was more interested in some metaphysical happening brought on by the power of God. If you read the gospels closely, it is pretty evident that Jesus was expecting the end of the world and the physical ressurection of all of the dead to be close at hand.

 

I think that reflects the sociocultural environment of the time, more than anything else. It was a very chaotic and dark time, for many -- the fall of the Roman Empire was a long, slow, painful process.

 

Bar-Kochba wasn't a messiah, although some people at the time believed that he was. I mean, the destruction of the one and only temple of their faith was a huge thing, to the Jews. For centuries after that act, many of those in the Jewish faith feared that their religion would die -- only through adapting and changing did the faith survive.

[quankanne]

it gives me a support and comfort when I am there. Kind of a familiarity that is like comfort food....

 

now THERE'S an idea for positive publicity for the Church: "Mashed taters, gravy, God – where there's comfort in life" :D

 

I had that same thought just before getting to sunny's post, that people find their faith a comfort much as they find certain foods. *Only* those foods can do the trick when you seek that comfort; only God can fill the void in a believer.

 

god is a creator, and we as his children are created in his own image. that doesn't mean we look like god, because god has no form. it means we are also creative spirits, with power just like god to create our reality.

 

we are good as our heavenly Father is good, because we are created in his image. We have the capacity to do good … and we have the capacity to do evil. And how we choose results in what we experience in the world around us. If we want the world to change, we must then become the agents of change, of putting self aside and striving for the good of the community.

[blind_otter]

I am God's twisted sense of humor.

[tinktronik]

I am God's twisted sense of humor.

That makes perfect sense.

[penkitten]

i think when you have a sudden urge to go, your soul is hungry and needs to be fed. you dont have to agree with every single thing said or done when you go, you just have to collect one thing. one solid item, whether it be part of the sermon, part of a prayer, pary of a hymn, or just for someone to shake your hand or smile at you from across the room.

 

i believe that it can be the simplest thing calling you there . who knows , there could be some suicidal person in need of someone to glance in their direction and flash them a smile.

 

however , with this said, i believe when you are called to go, you should.

[aleatoryd]

If Jesus existed then he was an Apocylyptic prophet who was heavily influenced by John the Baptist and the Essenes. He was more interested in some metaphysical happening brought on by the power of God. If you read the gospels closely, it is pretty evident that Jesus was expecting the end of the world and the physical ressurection of all of the dead to be close at hand.

 

I don't think there's any doubt that Jesus existed. He is written about not only in the Gospels and other Christian writings, but also from non Christian sources: The Roman historians Tacitus and Suetonius, as well as the Jewish historian Josephus recorded the life of Jesus.

 

Who he was and his teachings those are the questions. Whether you are a follower of Christ or walking a different spiritual path we are all searching and exploring our identity and concept of why we think we exist. I believe that God is throughout all creation. If that is the case then there are aspects of God in other world faiths. However Jesus said:

 

"I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

 

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." - John 3:16

 

Your point about the Essenes is interesting. I've read about the idea that Jesus was a member of that sect and the theory that he faked his death. Then there's the Gnostic Gospel I think people need to make their own mind up. Religious digma and imposing ideas on others is wrong.

 

My dad was raised a Catholic and because of the abuse within Catholic run education institutes he hates Christianity and declares himself an atheist. So I was raised an atheist - however was I believed in there being something greater out there; a creator or God as it were. Years later I became a Christian of my own free will fully aware of the ups and downs.

 

"Look at those who hold onto religion for hope - the weak and living dead and self delusional" Maybe they are maybe they aren't. Maybe these are people who are using religion as a crutch... but then again perhaps it is the only thing keeping them going. I admire people who don't need anything but themselves - are self reliant. Religion in itself is a corrupt and fallible thing. I don't like religion but I do believe in faith. My question is that if you don't believe in anything what hope do you have? What hope do you have to offer to the dying and what is the point of your life?

 

People mistake religion as The Church - I don't see this church within Jesus' teaching or ministry nor that of his disciples. There is good reason to be sceptical about Church structure and Dogma. So it comes down to individual faith - which we have to realise is different for each and every person. People have different experiences of God. My problem with certain branches of Christianity is that we are not living with the Spirit of God. Jesus came to abolish the laws but we still persist in making a structure or a rulebook to be "right with God".

 

Jesus taught us that we can only come through him to God. His death bought us a free gift by Grace that we inherit eternal life. Too many Christians spend their lives waiting to die and be "there". We don't even know what there is. So instead of living we just wait. I don't believe that is right and I don't believe that was Jesus' intention. The Catholic church preaches against contraceptives in Africa preaching Abstinence instead like that works. So HIV is rife and millions suffer. There comes a point when you have to wonder what people are actually following.

 

So I'm a liberal Christian. I look at Jesus' teachings about caring for others, social justice and abandoning our prejudices. What a great job we've done. Obsessed with being right with God, doing things because we think that earns us Salvation, persecuting unbelievers and burning heretics. There is nothing wrong with Christianity and Jesus and God - the problem is us. We are sinful in nature and despise others due to race, gender, social status, education, sexuality. None of these things are in Jesus' teachings. If anything we have become more disciples of Paul than of Jesus.

 

I don't claim to know the answer. I'm walking my own spiritual walk and respect others views. If God could correct everything that goes wrong we'd be living in a world that he would constantly be correcting. Free will wouldn't exist and we'd constantly resent God or we'd be mindless automatons. We are created in God's image. We have a right to our freedom and the liberty to exist how we like so long as we are not impininging on the well being and happiness of others. That is the ideal and Christians seek to be Christ like and perfected but will never get there until they die.

 

Lastly on this "burning in hell" question. In Revelations it is written that at the end of the world hell, the sea and land will give up their dead and we will be judged. Satan and his followers will be condemned to hellfire - non existence. If you don't believe in Heaven and Hell then this book in the Bible doesn't matter. The fact is those in Hell will be judged again so does that mean they have a chance to be in Heaven? If the answers NO they might as well just go straight to oblivion. However if the answer is YES then there is hope gor even those who have no hope.

 

I believe the answer to why God allows suffering and for us to be appart from him is because of free will. He is a parent and loves all his children. In the Bible it says when Jesus returns every knee will bow. It also says that God's Will on Earth will be done. He wants everyone to enter Heaven. This is the Universal Salvation argument. I don't know where I stand on this one but I like to think that my non Christian family, friends, loved ones etc all have a chance at being in Heaven regardless of their faith or beliefs and who knows he might even let Christians in as well.

[quankanne]

because of the abuse within Catholic-run educational institutions, he hates Christianity

 

this is very troubling to hear, that problems caused by humans end up turning people away from faith. Regardless of WHAT vehicle religion used to practice that faith ...

 

We have a right to our freedom and the liberty to exist how we like so long as we are not impininging on the well being and happiness of others. That is the ideal and Christians seek to be Christ like and perfected but will never get there until they die.

 

this is a contradictory statement – as Christians, our ideal is to live fully in God as we follow Jesus to a permanent afterlife. The well-being and happiness of others is relative, because not everyone has this same goal, nor do they care about it the same as does a believer. Their well-being and happiness may full well be grounded in things temporal, so it's entirely possible for my belief and my well-being and happiness in it is making someone else miserable. You're confusing freedoms and liberties of a temporal plane as those on the spiritual plane. They're two different things with two different goals.

[ThumbingMyWay]

Ego interferes with the innate connection to something greater than yourself........

 

....clinging to self prevents one from piercing the veil of enlightenment and the ecstatic union with the universe.

 

 

I agree, but I use a different context. Selfish pride blocks the Grace of God.

[ThumbingMyWay]

I believe the answer to why God allows suffering and for us to be appart from him is because of free will. He is a parent and loves all his children. In the Bible it says when Jesus returns every knee will bow. It also says that God's Will on Earth will be done. He wants everyone to enter Heaven. This is the Universal Salvation argument. I don't know where I stand on this one but I like to think that my non Christian family, friends, loved ones etc all have a chance at being in Heaven regardless of their faith or beliefs and who knows he might even let Christians in as well.

 

He does love each of us....and because of that he created hell. His ideal would be for all to come to him thru his Son. but he also understands that he gave us free will to do what we want....and if we choose NOT to accept Jesus, then we have that right. But he loves us so much, that he couldnt just let us die and go nowere, so he created Hell for the people that believed in Self and not God.

 

And Hell is exactly that.....separation from God. I dont believe Hell is fire and brimstone, I believe it is just separation from God himself...forever. So hell maybe a very nice place for those who dont want God around. You get to live forever in eternity and do what ever yourSELF wants to do...free will at its best.

 

But for those who want to be close to God for eternity, well, then enter Jesus, the Way the Truth and the Life. Simple as that.

 

 

As for your NON-christain friends and family. I believe God is a just God and he will judge based on the golden rule. Now if you followed the golden rule, yet didnt accept Jesus, then you go to Hell. But hell in the sence of a good place, like the top level so to speak, yet still separated from God.

 

Heaven is for those who except Christ in there lives.

 

I honestly believe Hell is not a bad place,it just doesnt have God in it...you make it a bad place based on how you lived your life on earth.... If we live by selfwish ways, then God, says here, go to this place and be selfish all you want...FOREVER, but the trade-off is you will forever be separated from him.

 

and because of that fear, i choose to TRY to follow Jesus. and let me tell you...this FREE WILL that he gave us....its hard to let go of it...its hard to empty yourself from your SELF and be humble....its a daily struggle....but in the end I will be rewarded.

[quankanne]

And Hell is exactly that.....separation from God. I dont believe Hell is fire and brimstone, I believe it is just separation from God himself ... forever.

 

that's my take on it, too. The fire and brimstone comparisons come when we, in our limited human understanding, try to think of the worst thing we can compare that loss to. For me, it's the mere absence; for someone else, it's being in that hotspot.

 

I missed part of his talk because I had to run copies off for the class, but one of the priests was talking about all the things Jesus did for us, and the most incredible wasn't that he offered himself up for our sins – though that is a really serious commitment of love – but that he descended into hell. I didn't catch the rest of his comment as to why Jesus went or why that was such an incredible act because of aforementioned copy-making, but can someone refresh my memory about this descent into hell? What part of Scripture is this from, and what was the context of that passage? I know the creed that we recite at Mass includes this, but I've never really thought about it before ...

[blind_otter]

I accept Christ into my life, but I don't think that believing in his existence or his words will save me. Isn't that a fundamental doctrine of the church?

 

My actions are the ground on which I stand. So it is through my actions and choices alone that salvation can occur. Enlightenment. Whatever, same thing.

[quankanne]

I accept Christ into my life, but I don't think that believing in his existence or his words will save me. Isn't that a fundamental doctrine of the church?

 

My actions are the ground on which I stand. So it is through my actions and choices alone that salvation can occur. Enlightenment. Whatever, same thing.

 

the initial part of your statement is paradoxical, otter. Do you mean to say that you acknowlege that others accept and believe in Christ, while you personally don't? I believe Christian doctrine pretty much has it down to accepting and believing, or rejecting, Christ. Kinda like a woman really can't say "I'm a little bit pregnant." She's either pregnant, and at a certain stage of gestation, or she's not. Though this is prolly a bad analogy

 

being enlightened or edified by what information you encounter in your lifetime is a whole other ballgame than salvation. Enlightenment can be the catalyst in salvation, but it's not salvation itself, spiritually speaking.

 

re: my previous post. Found the answer, it's the Harrowing of Hell where Jesus pretty much busts out the righteous from that tier of hell we Catholics know as purgatory. Which makes sense when Christians talk about how he conquored death. The internet is a great tool for enlightenment!

[blind_otter]

the initial part of your statement is paradoxical, otter. Do you mean to say that you acknowlege that others accept and believe in Christ, while you personally don't? I believe Christian doctrine pretty much has it down to accepting and believing, or rejecting, Christ. Kinda like a woman really can't say "I'm a little bit pregnant." She's either pregnant, and at a certain stage of gestation, or she's not. Though this is prolly a bad analogy

 

being enlightened or edified by what information you encounter in your lifetime is a whole other ballgame than salvation. Enlightenment can be the catalyst in salvation, but it's not salvation itself, spiritually speaking.

 

No, it's not paradoxical. I accept Christ, but merely believing in him? That includes all the people who go to church on Sundays and sin six days of the week. I think that's stupid.

 

Thich Naht Hanh calls Jesus Christ one of his spiritual ancestors. And "Enlightenment" isn't just like, learning things to make yourself feel better or know more, Quank. It's a spiritual term for becoming one with the divine, or the universe. Look it up in wikipedia if you like.

 

But you bandy the term "enlightenment" around -- that's a word, not the spiritual term. I encourage you to do further research.

 

Enlightenment (concept), a concept in mysticism, philosophy and psychology

Moksha, the Hindu religious concept of enlightenment

Bodhi, Satori, Nirvana, Great Perfection, the Buddhist religious concept

Yogic Enlightenment, the Yoga concept of enlightenment

See also, illumination, self-realization, oneness, nonduality

 

I believe that Christ existed, and I love his message. But I also believe that the church has failed in continuing to teach the message that Christ was trying to pass on.

 

Blue Tuesday had a fascinating point -- the church, IMO, almost demands idolatry. It demands worship of itself, as an institution. It calls for tithing. The Church even controls what portions of the word of God are released to the flock.

 

And I believe that all spiritual paths are to the same end - truth.

[ThumbingMyWay]

No, it's not paradoxical. I accept Christ, but merely believing in him? That includes all the people who go to church on Sundays and sin six days of the week. I think that's stupid.

 

i say the same thing. You cant just believe in him....you must followin his ways of life. Just merely believing does not give you a get out of hell free card... I accept him and the holy spirit, he speaks to me thru the spirit everyday in every action i do.....call it my conscience I guess....but the fact is....my body sins everyday....I wish it didnt but it does...but I try to repent and I try to do the right thing. I use Gods name in vein, I have lust in my mind and I tell little lies.....but a sin is a sin. But for the most of all I try not to be selfish...which is hard to do when the body has free will. I often wonder why God did this to us...gave us free will knowing our body will have sinfull desires, but then says follow my Sons actions to get to me.....its hard to say the least....but the eternal prize is worth it

 

 

 

I believe that Christ existed, and I love his message. But I also believe that the church has failed in continuing to teach the message that Christ was trying to pass on.

 

Blue Tuesday had a fascinating point -- the church, IMO, almost demands idolatry. It demands worship of itself, as an institution. It calls for tithing. The Church even controls what portions of the word of God are released to the flock.

 

dam B_O...I agree here too. I always say that if Christ was here today, he would be appauled with the Chruch and its behaviours....not to say all chruches, but for the most part....it all comes down to money and it shouldnt be that way. It should be about what Jesus was trying to tell us....and that is to LOVE each other and to live a life of selflessness

 

And I believe that all spiritual paths are to the same end - truth.

 

I agree with this too....but my belief is we will find the ultimate Truth thru Jesus Christ....the FULL answer will come thru him. Not to say that Hindus and Buddist will not reach enlightenment, which I believe they will....just maybe not to the highest level as you would thru Christ. JMO....

[blind_otter]

It's a daily struggle for balance. I feel it constantly, moreso every day, I am growing in awareness of what I need to do.

 

Thanks for sharing, TMW! It helps to hear from others who have found spirituality to be a comfort to them.

[ThumbingMyWay]

It's a daily struggle for balance. I feel it constantly, moreso every day, I am growing in awareness of what I need to do.

 

aahhh yes...so many people are living life and dont feel a thing. But once you become AWARE.....the feelings come in. I learned this thru counseling. Most people have a wall around their most inner self. Not many people come to know there authentic self...its a life long journey. Its funny cause after many seesion with MC, its like my whole world took a different turn, I was aware of EVERYTHING I did, said or felt....and that is a wierd feeling.

 

I put it this way....its like a rundown building that you walk past everyday, theres no sign and when you look in, you dont see anyone inside. BUT one day...the day you become AWARE, you walk past and see a huge sign that says WELCOME HOME! and the place is packed with people just like me...people on the journey to truth. I walk in and say...HEY, why didnt you ever come out and get me all the times I was looking in...why didnt you invite me to this place. And the answer was...its always been here, you just didnt SEE it....well i saw it when i decided to let go my my pride and selfishness.

 

 

Thanks for sharing, TMW! It helps to hear from others who have found spirituality to be a comfort to them.

 

its funny, my wife and I were talking the other day. She says she was the reason i found my faith again.....I said how so. She said, if she didnt have the affair, then I never would have took my inner journey....and I thought about that...and she was right. God had a plan for me to come back to him...and my path started with betrayel...which led to him....so like I said many times....her affair was bitter sweet.....bitter because of the pain of betrayel, but sweet because it brought me closer to him.

[blind_otter]

Quank pointed me towards the writings of St. John of the Cross, who wrote a long poem about his "Dark Night of the Soul" -- a period of doubt, anguish, suffering, chaos, that is a necessary part of spiritual growth.

 

How could you know how bright it is, if you hadn't been blinded by the dark?

 

I came to realize through suffering, that the sin in depression and suffering is giving in to the feeling of being alone. Not realizing that there are so many others around you in the darkness, fumbling around and just as afraid.

[ThumbingMyWay]

How could you know how bright it is, if you hadn't been blinded by the dark?

 

I came to realize through suffering, that the sin in depression and suffering is giving in to the feeling of being alone. Not realizing that there are so many others around you in the darkness, fumbling around and just as afraid.

 

2 Corinthians 4: 6-10

 

6 For God, who said, "Let there be light in the darkness," has made us understand that this light is the brightness of the glory of God that is seen in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

7 But this precious treasure--this light and power that now shine within us--is held in perishable containers, that is, in our weak bodies.[a] So everyone can see that our glorious power is from God and is not our own.

 

8 We are pressed on every side by troubles, but we are not crushed and broken. We are perplexed, but we don't give up and quit.

 

9 We are hunted down, but God never abandons us. We get knocked down, but we get up again and keep going.

 

10 Through suffering, these bodies of ours constantly share in the death of Jesus so that the life of Jesus may also be seen in our bodies.

[ThumbingMyWay]

I came to realize through suffering.......

 

this reminds me of an old thread I had called Betrayel of the Human Heart. This was my post on there...

 

B_O...I know exactly what you mean by suffering...

 

 

Betrayal of the human heart....

 

 

Focus on the positive. Focus on Hope

 

Betrayal of the Heart….after experiencing this feeling….I believe it is the single most destructive act that a human spirit can endure.

 

Jesus was perfect. Everything He did was perfect. He had no faults.

 

But at the moment He was crucified on the cross…..the precise moment He asked his Father:

 

“Why have you forsaken me?”

 

That was the exact moment when the Christ became human….thru the act of betrayal….he felt ALL the pain of being a human.

 

It was his destiny, he was betrayed by God so that He could take away our pain. It was Gods plan for His children……

 

And knowing this, and understanding this…..I will for ever be grateful to Him.

 

In time we will all feel His pain as he felt on the cross…….but if we turn over our spirit to him….we WILL be healed:

 

Matthew 11:28-30

 

“Jesus said, “Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you, because I am humble and gentle, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke fits perfectly, and the burden I give you is light”

 

 

I became human on March 1, 2005……and I can now begin my journey to truth and love….it all makes sense with me now…..I was betrayed for a reason....it was to give me rest…..as hard as that is to understand and accept…that is the reason.

 

Sorry if I come across all preachy….but I have been searching for something to fill the void in my spirit…….and for ME….my faith is my healer….its something I cant explain….but I am glad I have Him to lean on…

 

 

thank you

[quankanne]

"Enlightenment" isn't just like, learning things to make yourself feel better or know more, Quank. It's a spiritual term for becoming one with the divine, or the universe.

 

my bad – I was merely speaking in terms of intellectual enlightenment. Which is prolly a normal thing for me, since I really haven't delved into spiritual enlightenment. Unless discovering things about my faith through some of the stuff I've read here and on the internet counts? Still, I tend to think of "enlightenment" as "edification," more intellectually than spiritually.

 

I accept Christ, but merely believing in him? That includes all the people who go to church on Sundays and sin six days of the week. I think that's stupid.

 

it's the first step in that big journey I do agree with y'alls statements that people tend to get bogged down by the vehicle and the trappings of their faith as expressed through religion, but I think it's part of the overall journey. At some point you realize you've got to get rid of some of the souvenirs you've collected and the extra crap you've packed so that the travel goes more lightly.

 

my belief is we will find the ultimate Truth thru Jesus Christ

 

lo mismo – I believe Christ is that ultimate truth, and he's where I want to be.

[aleatoryd]

We have a right to our freedom and the liberty to exist how we like so long as we are not impininging on the well being and happiness of others. That is the ideal and Christians seek to be Christ like and perfected but will never get there until they die.

 

this is a contradictory statement – as Christians, our ideal is to live fully in God as we follow Jesus to a permanent afterlife. The well-being and happiness of others is relative, because not everyone has this same goal, nor do they care about it the same as does a believer. Their well-being and happiness may full well be grounded in things temporal, so it's entirely possible for my belief and my well-being and happiness in it is making someone else miserable. You're confusing freedoms and liberties of a temporal plane as those on the spiritual plane. They're two different things with two different goals.

 

Well first I probably should have written it with the first sentence being:

 

We have a right to our freedom and the liberty to exist how we like so long as we are not impininging on the well being and happiness of others that is the ideal.

 

My point being that we shouldn't live in such a way that we make others suffer for our actions, but obviously we do because while people argue about fair and ethical trading those same people balk at the idea that this might affect their quality of life. Better wages for nut farmers in South America mean higher prices for us?! Outrage... we are all hypocrites (and yes I know that's a generalisation!)

 

 

Christians seek to be Christ like and perfected but will never get there until they die.

 

You can't earn salvation, it's a gift given by grace. I'm not implying you did by the way! Too many people believ that their deeds can get them right with God and don't even get me started on the prosperity Gospel. The bottom line is that we can't put limits on God - we can't fully define Him. As for spiritual and temporal planes. Well there isn't enough written on these areas to make a sound comment - this is where faith comes in.

[aleatoryd]

And Hell is exactly that.....separation from God. I dont believe Hell is fire and brimstone, I believe it is just separation from God himself...forever. So hell maybe a very nice place for those who dont want God around. You get to live forever in eternity and do what ever yourSELF wants to do...free will at its best.

 

I agree that Hell isn't all fire and brimstone. It likely is separation from God until the day of judgement:

 

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them in chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement" - 2 Peter 2:4

 

Then the dead are given up:

 

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." - Revelation 20:13

 

And then there's a lake of fire and oblivion... permanent nothing:

 

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:14

 

As for your NON-christain friends and family. I believe God is a just God and he will judge based on the golden rule. Now if you followed the golden rule, yet didnt accept Jesus, then you go to Hell. But hell in the sence of a good place, like the top level so to speak, yet still separated from God.

 

I agree with the first part God is a just God... but there is only the second death or salvation unless you are arguing the difference between the new Earth and new Heaven - presumably those without God being the former and those who accepteed Jesus the latter. I can't find fault with that logic because there isn't enough written down to substantiate it either way and too many Christians waste their lives debating the afterlife and forget to focus on living life now. For all it frailties and problems from the day we recognise that we are a part of the Kingdom of God we must see that it is here and now. We are called to build the Kingdom here.

 

I think the distinction that should be made is that this state of separation after judgement is not "Hell" in the classical sense. Everything else you said I agree with.

[quankanne]

thanks for the clarifications, alea ... al .. A! (as you can see, everyone gets a nickname)