Another Love but not IN Love Story

[DesperateDad]

Hi, I'm new to these boards and new to this sort of situation. I've been reading through the posts and found some situations that seem similar to mine. I've already found some wonderful advice here, but I'm hoping to get some more specific ideas. Here's my story:

 

My wife and I have just had our ninth wedding anniversary. We have six children all together, including her now teenage daughter from her first marriage. The youngest five are six and under. This is my first marriage.

 

We've had a rough go of it over the last few years and really, even from the beginning of our relationship. We've dealt with constant financial troubles and having one kid after another for the last six years, too.

 

For the last five years, I've been working full time and also going to night school to get my bachelors. I also teach part time to help (almost) make ends meet. I now need one more class to finish.

 

The problems in our relationship really started nearly three years ago with the birth of our twin daughters. I was going to school four nights a week and we argued a lot about the time I was taking away from the family and not helping her. At the time, I got really frustrated and told her to just deal with it because things would get better soon.

 

I know that was an awful thing to do to her and that I essentially abandoned her emotionally. After that she withdrew from me even when I apologized and begged her to open up to me with her problems. I figured things would just get better. I was wrong.

 

We had one more baby who just turned one this month. The whole pregnancy had been extremely stressful. We found out about the pregnancy as she was in the emergency room with gall stones. It turned out that she needed emergency surgery a week later to save her life. Thankfully, she and the baby survived fine.

 

We were at that time building a big new house as we had more money coming in and we hated the little shack we lived in out in the country. We had a buyer back out at the last moment, though, and we had to accept an offer from a neighbor that was $25,000 less than the previous offer and also less than we'd paid for the house. Yes, it sucked.

 

With a little help from her family, we managed to get into the new house. Things were pretty strained between us, but, of course, I thought things were getting better.

 

Then, last spring I did something really stupid. I had a fling with a much younger woman from school. We didn't have sex, but it was very emotional. It lasted for only a few weeks before it ended. I didn't tell my wife, but she suspected, as I found out later.

 

My wife began to make friends with the neighbors, especially the man across the street who was having marriage problems with a truly abusive wife. They are now in the final stages of a divorce, but she's still living there in denial. It's a wierd situation.

 

So, my wife and this man have been having a very emotional type relationship. Not physical as far as I know, but I did catch her trying to kiss him one time. She said that he refused, even though he has feelings for her, saying he couldn't do that to me.

 

Since then, I had thought we had patched things up a bit. I've been less focused on my school (hurting my grades, but who cares now?) and more on the family, but she's still withdrawn from me and confiding in this guy who I'm actually friends with, too.

 

So the bombshell was dropped two weeks ago when she told me she loves him and no longer loves me (not IN love, that is). She didn't say the divorce word, but the idea that she didn't want to be with me anymore was stated clearly. I confessed about the girl from school then.

 

Up to that time, my reaction to her complaints was to get angry and defensive. I don't think I've been that bad besides making the terrible mistake with that girl. I know I have issues with anxiety and depression, but I've made some progress in dealing with it over the last few years.

 

Right now, we've agreed to stay together for the kids. We've stopped fighting entirely and I've told her that I love her and can forgive anything and that I want to make things work, but she still says she doesn't see her feelings changing. She's very angry inside and bears a lot of resentment towards me.

 

I admitted to making a lot of mistakes. I have. I think she's been through a lot, but she's an amazing, capable and sexy woman. I want to fix things, but I'm not sure what to do now.

 

After reacting with anger and tears at first (I totally broke down when talking about the kids), I'm now trying to be cool and not put any pressure on her. I tried at first to tell her not to talk to this guy and told him not to talk to her, but she was angrier about that than I've ever seen her and just about ready to kick me out on my ear. After that, she flat out said she'd choose her 'friendship' with him over her marriage to me.

 

I can't make her love me again, but I can't and won't give up on our marriage. I'm planning on trying to fix myself and see a counselor soon. Any other ideas out there?

 

(I'm sorry for writing this book. I hope you'll understand.)

[Yamaha]

I would go to a councelor. You need to get through this and a councelor will be able to help you. Once a women decides she's through with you it's nearly impossible to change their mind. Give her all the space she needs but I wouldn't expect her to change her situation. I wish I had better news for you but I think the best you can hope for is that the two of you will be civil for your kids sake. I wish you the best of luck.

[DesperateDad]

Thanks for the reply, Yamaha. I'm going to try to fix myself regardless. I'm tired of being stressed and depressed over life. With that said, I still think she's just reached a breaking point and will realize after a little time that things are already getting better.

 

In the last few days, we've spent some time together each day just hanging out, not talking about us. She's even noticed that I'm trying to change things, too. A couple of times she's said, "Maybe you really are starting to change." I'm trying not to have false hopes, but... I'm willing to take my lumps and improve myself in the meantime.

[bkz]

Im going to take the optomist side on this, espessially since your wanting to make things work.

 

She noticed changes in you and seemed happy about them? Well thats a real good sign id think. Im sure you'll have some proving to do and only time will tell if shes gonna accept the changes as being real but if shes willing to stick around to find out then good for you, theres definately a chance for you guys.

 

This is just my opinion and I hope things do work out for your family. Im sure others will chime in, just continue to post as things move along.

 

Oh and id stay away from talking about the relationship unless she anitiates it. I dont think you want her to feel pressured at this point so its best just to work on YOU and let her see the changes and respond to them on her own.

[whichwayisup]

Ouch. I feel for you both.

 

Sadly the fact she said she'd choose the friendship over your marriage is not a good thing at all. Let's just hope that guy across the road holds up his side of the bargin. Would you consider talking to him and asking him to backoff from your wife? If he is a good friend to her, he'll encourage her to focus on fixing the marriage and seeing a marriage counsellor with you.

 

In the meantime, I also have to add in that the anxiety/depression thing makes it all so much worse. I don't suffer from depression (maybe a mild form of it or SAD over the winter months) but I DO have an anxiety disorder. It's better and under control due to me seeing a therapist - So, continue with therapy because the stress you're feeling and the changes around you WILL trigger your feelings which will bring on anxiety big time.

 

Keep posting and don't give up on her. Or yourself.

[DesperateDad]

Thanks so much for the encouragement, bkz and whichwayisup. I'm trying to take it day by day and realize that I can only change myself.

 

I did try talking to the guy across the street. I talked to him that first day she told me she 'loved' him and asked him to stay away and he agreed. When my wife found out she went ballistic on me for trying to control her. I did realize at that point that I really can't make her do anything and so I gave in because I didn't want to make things worse.

 

He did seem sort of surprised at the situation. Even though I know he has feelings for her, too, I'm hoping that he does maintain appropriate boundaries.

 

For myself, acceptance of the reality of our problems has been very difficult. Right now I'm working on that day by day while trying to avoid any talk of relationship or working things out. I only want to show her that our house is a peaceful one and that I'm not going to hurt her anymore. The last couple of nights we've sat watching TV together and laughing and chatting about shows. So far, so good.

 

BTW, besides the great advice on LoveShack, I've found some good stuff on http://www.marriagebuilders.com/, too.

[DesperateDad]

bkz, I read your story yesterday and it just made my heart break. Thanks for taking the time to give me advice. I do really appreciate your and others comments.

 

I spent last night tossing and turning again. I kept thinking there was some one thing that I could do to fix things, but when I became fully awake, it wasn't real. I've been trying to follow the Plan A steps from marriagebuilders, but it's incredibly hard sometimes.

 

I know I've been a total jerk from time to time, but this limbo is killing me. The funny thing is that I feel like I'm actually making some ground. We're talking together better than we have in some time and I'm making sure to avoid all anger, disrespect and demands.

 

The thing that continues to bother me, though, is her relationship with the neighbor. It seems to have slacked off a bit. She's not up so late anymore and I'm trying to stay up with her to chat about things, too.

 

I just don't know where things are with them. I'm thinking about having another conversation with him and setting down some ground rules, but I'm terribly afraid she'll get pissed off again about me trying to control her life. She says she's not sure about anything in her life anymore.

 

I talked to him over the phone last week for a while and she got a little upset with me because he wouldn't tell her what we talked about. I told her right up front what we talked about, but he told her to ask me. WTF? Are they really just friends, then? Am I overreacting? But, what about the feelings they have for each other?

 

He has acknowledged stepping over the line before, but may not realize how badly he's done it. He's been using her as a counselor while he's gone through his divorce and she loves to help people, so she's sucking it up. She always has tried to help anybody who asks for it.

 

I want to tell him that if they say anything to each other that they can't say in front of me, it's wrong; that if he buys her any gifts, especially flowers, it's wrong; and that, if he's hanging around my house while I'm not around, it's wrong.

 

He works third shift and is home during the day a lot and up late at night so that has complicated things for me. He's around the house all the time it seems, while I've been gone a lot. He's supposed to go on a day shift soon, though, but may be off several days during the week.

 

I'm so frustrated with this situation! Sometimes I get so angry I want to get violent; other times I just want to be friendly and open about how I feel. This sucks!

 

If anybody has any advice, I'd love to hear it. I was wondering if I should get more aggressive about things without knowing what's up or if that will do more damage. Or, should I find some way to make sure everybody in the neighborhood finds out about it, hoping that revealing it will make it go away?

 

I'm really confused and worried that I'm not doing enough by just being nice to her and supportive. Is there anything more I should be doing?

[Yamaha]

I think if you get aggressive you will push things to a head but it might not turn out as you want it to. I guess it is going to come down to how patient you are willing to be and if you see any changes in her as wanting to have a relationship with you again. Talk to your councelor about your concerns. They are more equipped to help you understand yourself and her.

[Mz. Pixie]

DD- I'm sorry you're finding yourself in this situation.

 

I think you're in major denial here. They ARE having an affair. Here is what I would do. I'd put a voice activated recorder in the house and see what's going on during the day when you're not home. Of course they could always go to his house but he's probably calling or coming over as well. If that didn't work I'd hire a PI to scope things out or borrow a friends car and scope things out for yourself. She's not going to admit it until you have hard proof. And I wouldn't confront her or push about it until I had the proof. Quit mentioning it or your relationship and lull her into a false sense of security so she's not covering her tracks as well.

 

Both of you have made mistakes here, you've had an affair yourself. So, I would find it very self righteous of you to sit and lecture her and be angry when you've done the same thing.

 

I'd put it more of a fresh start. You made mistakes, she made mistakes. You're willing to take her back with open arms- and work on your marriage to make it better than ever- but she has to give up the other guy. Period. No contact for life. Then you guys get into marriage counseling!

[DesperateDad]

Thanks Yamaha and Ms. P. I'm leaning toward being less aggressive, too, because that's part of what got us here in the first place. I have reacted angrily to her concerns in the past instead of just listening. I do feel really awful about what I've done and want to make up for it somehow.

 

She has repeatedly told me over the last few months (and up until a couple of weeks ago) that she has nothing to hide and has offered to let me read text messages and emails. I've always said no, but I'm afraid it's too late for that.

 

I've tried going through her papers and I've found nothing so far to indicate anything going on beyond talk. She has her computer and her cellphone password-protected, too, so I can't access those right now without lots of suspicion.

 

I don't think she has much time during the day for anything because she's busy watching the kids. We have a 6yo in half day kindergarten, a 4yo in MWF preschool, 2.5yo twins and a 1yo that need constant supervision.

 

There are more complications, too. He has a 16yo son and a 6yo son. Did I mention that the 16yo is now dating my 15yo stepdaughter? Our 6yo's play together all the time, too. Oh, and his STBXW is convinced he's having an affair with my W. This is nuts!

 

I'm going to look into the voice recorder and see if that can get me proof of anything. If I do find hard evidence, what then? Reveal it to the world? And if not, keep going the way I am (MB Plan A)?

 

BTW, she is on the outs with her family right now, but they (and my own family) are strong Catholics and would totally hit the roof if they knew what was going on. No one knows anything is happening with us besides my brother and my mom who knows only that we're having problems.

 

I've been wondering if getting the families involved will help or hurt. She was very upset when I told her that I talked to my brother (Yes, I also told him about my affair). I trust him completely, but the first thing she said was, "how can we ever get back together if everybody knows about this? They'll hate me and I can't live with that."

 

Then I reminded her of my worthless brother in law who my family has welcomed back a hundred times after affairs, DUI's and drug abuse. She's so much better than that. She really is an awesome woman who barely drinks and has never done drugs. She really loves the kids, too.

 

She's told me that she knows everyone will think she's crazy and doing the wrong thing, but that she doesn't care. She's tired of doing everything for everybody else and nothing for herself. It's true that she has always tried to please everyone else, but now it seems she's placing all the blame on me for the trouble in her life.

[bkz]

She's told me that she knows everyone will think she's crazy and doing the wrong thing, but that she doesn't care. She's tired of doing everything for everybody else and nothing for herself. It's true that she has always tried to please everyone else, but now it seems she's placing all the blame on me for the trouble in her life.

 

Now this I can relate to D!!! Doesnt matter what everyone else thinks really espessially if theres an affair. My wife likes to play the victum as well and is REALLY good at it espessially with me, no one can push my buttons or make me feel like she does. We all have blame in these situations for the most part its just a matter of coming to terms with what you've done and what your willing to do to correct it, then of course what she's willing to do. You can only control you though and to try and force her to do anything is just gonna push her away further.

 

My wife so far has admitted to very little and would rather put it on me, even her health problems. I on the other hand have appologysed, written letters and changed myself into a FAR better person all around through all of this. I still have a TON of work to do on me but in time......

Its been pretty one sided and I dont expect to see alot of change on her end at this point. If I wanted things to work with us I im pretty sure the only way that would happen is to not hold her accountable for what shes done at this point and I just dont think I can do that. Thing is the longer shes away and is still unhappy and having health problems (even more that before) the more she'll start to realize its not me and shes got problems/issues of her own to deal with. Also the longer shes away and I keep getting right with myself the more I dont know if I want her back after all thats happend, NEVER would have thought this a couple of weeks ago.

 

I would concider hiring a PI like Mz. P suggested. I wished I would have listend to her more in the beginning of my sitch and found stuff out then, but theres that horrible word that kept keeping me from doing it, DENIAL. I know enough to satisfy myself and really dont care a whole lot at this point whats going on so long as it doesnt effect my kids.

 

I do still have a small bit of hope things will work out for us but im to the point were I feel I may be better off if it doesnt. Where I was a couple of weeks ago to were I am now is a HUGE differance. Once you get to the point were you really start seing things for what they are and except it you can begin to detach and begin to heal a bit. Im not saying to give up but to let go enough to take care of yourself and have some happiness in your life, it really does help in making the right choices.

 

I know its easyer said than done trust me!!!!!! And im a bit farther along than you are at this point but I just want to let you know it CAN be done and you'll get there. Main thing is just dont put too much pressure on yourself. Its real easy to beet youself up over all this stuff and put too much of it on yourself but thats counter productive.

[DesperateDad]

Thanks, bkz. Like everybody else in this situation, I'm having lots of ups and downs. I'm really trying to keep things on an even keel, but as you know, it's hard. I'm honestly very surprised that I've been able to do what I've done. I'm trying to act happy and cheerful all the time now because she has always been bothered a lot by my moodiness.

 

Question: should I avoid telling her I love her every day? I've tried to cut back on showing affection at least a little so as to give her more space, but I want her to know that I'm still here for her and my feelings haven't changed.

 

She usually reacts to my touch and telling her with a certain coldness lately anyway. She HAS made a point of letting me know a few times in the past few days when things seemed to be going well that things haven't changed for her. Is it better to give her a little more distance?

 

Keep in mind, we had our big blow up a week ago monday, but we've had about one bad fight a week for several weeks. Last weekend was bad; I was a wreck and trying to beg (it hurts to admit it), but that was when she agreed to stay together for the kids for now, but that she would be out of there when our youngest graduates from high school (that's 17 more years, BTW!?)

[dgiirl]

DD, first of all, your wife knows how you feel. I'm sure you've told her already that you love her and that you want this to work out, right? Dont repeat yourself, she knows. The more you keep repeating yourself and trying to push your love onto her, the more she's going to pull away.

 

Second, keep in mind your wife is probably an emotional wreck just like you are at the moment. This doesnt mean that she'll change her mind and come back, but a lot of the irrational behaviour will change once she's calmed down. ie staying until the youngest graduates is pretty irrational. She probably believes it RIGHT now, but in a few weeks/months she might change her mind, so dont believe everything she tells you.

 

This is going to be a long road, it will NOT be fixed over night, but keeping yourself calm and collected will help. I know this sounds crazy, but try and pick up a new hobby. Dont go out clubbing and dancing, but atleast pickup a hobby that will take you out of the house for an hour a week or something. It will help with the depression and give you some breathing space. The one thing that I kept thinking was I was in such an emotional wreck that NOONE, not even I, would want to come back to me. You have to show her a positive happy person, someone who is confident and enjoying life. I think this is your best chance of drawing her back to you. Unfortunately, my exh didnt stick around to see me change, and I still cant show him a positive happy person. I am much happier, but only when he's NOT around, even tho I want(ed) my marriage to work, i just couldnt let go of the resentment I have towards him when I'm WITH him.

[DesperateDad]

Thanks dgiirl. I'm afraid we had another discussion just a little bit ago that did not go well. She texted me and asked what was going on with me, that I seemed like I wanted to talk last night. I actually did, but we just chatted about her evening and her meditation class she'd just gotten home from. It wasn't confrontational or serious and went pretty well --last night.

 

I texted her back and said what was on my mind: that I wanted to work things out and that I knew we could do it if we gave it a chance and that it was worth it for both of us and our six children.

 

She essentially went ballistic. She texted me back and said that her feelings wouldn't change and that it was only good for me, not anybody else if we stayed together. Then she called me and was extremely angry, barely controlled.

 

I don't understand the change that's come over her in the last few weeks. She's been going to this meditation class and talking about all this weird stuff that she's seeing, auras and spirits that talk to her and it's scaring me.

 

She told me that a speaker flew off the mantel twice one day and almost hit our baby. She thinks it's a spirit trying to talk to her. Is it coincidence that she's acting this way after these classes? What's up? I'm getting worried about this stuff and her state of mind. It just doesn't seem normal.

 

She's dead set against counseling, but said she would go if I set it up so somebody else could explain to me that she doesn't love me anymore and never will. She's still so full of hate and feelings for this other guy that she can't think straight. I don't know what to do.

 

I did end up calling the priest who married us right after our conversation and I'm waiting for a call back. I'm thinking of asking him to meet with us and see what happens.

 

She also said that apparently it's not going to work out staying together for the kids and trying to be friendly because I'm trying to force her to do things. Should I tell her not to worry about counseling now or should I just set it up and see if she'll go?

 

I feel like crap.

[dgiirl]

I think individual counselling might be a good idea at the moment. You can then ask the therapist what's the best idea for the two of you.

 

My ex said the same thing, he'd be willing to go to therapy if it'd help ME understand he didnt love me anymore. My therapist didnt want to speak with him.

 

I think you did ok tho. She's the one who ask you what you were thinking, and in that case, I think it's ok to tell her what you were thinking. One of the main rules of Divorce Busting is no relationship talk unless SHE brings it up. This way you are not pressuring her, but if she's asking you, you'll tell her. She's either asking because she wants reassurance that you still want to work things out, or she'll LEARN not to ask you these questions.

[Ladyjane14]

I don't understand the change that's come over her in the last few weeks. She's been going to this meditation class and talking about all this weird stuff that she's seeing, auras and spirits that talk to her and it's scaring me.

 

She told me that a speaker flew off the mantel twice one day and almost hit our baby. She thinks it's a spirit trying to talk to her. Is it coincidence that she's acting this way after these classes? What's up? I'm getting worried about this stuff and her state of mind. It just doesn't seem normal.

 

 

She needs a mental health evaluation. No kidding.

 

Dude, I'm not a psychiatrist...but unless your house is seriously haunted, those episodes sound like hallucinations.

 

If she balks at seeing a shrink, maybe you can get her to follow up with her OB/GYN. (????) Postpartum depression when left untreated can still be symptomatic in 25% of patients a YEAR from onset. http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/postpart.html.

Not saying that's definately the case with your wife, but hallucinations can be present as one of the symptoms.

 

If she lays her ears back and won't see either a medical or psychiatric doctor, I think you ought to consider removing your children from her immediate care. You'll need to see an attorney if that becomes necessary. You don't want any 'speakers flying across the room and hitting your baby'.

 

Start a journal btw, documenting her weird behavior. Dates and times, hand-written in ink, and kept in a secure location.

[DesperateDad]

Thanks, LJ. I keep thinking that there is really a lot going on here. She seems perfectly fine most of the time. Sometimes when we talk, though, she gets so angry with me over the past and about how hard it has been to live with me.

 

We had another really nasty fight yesterday over the phone. I was at work and I went into a private room and lost my temper big time. I didn't say anything mean to her, but I yelled really loud that another guy giving her flowers was a problem for me, but most especially since she told me she loved him and he loved her. Am I being unreasonable about this?

 

She said a lot of really hateful, angry things to me in this conversation and I calmed down a lot and tried to be reasonable. She's mad that I said this will hurt the children and will affect them for the rest of their lives. She kept saying I accused her of 'f***ing up' the kids. I really didn't.

 

After I got home from work, she apologized and so did I. We had a quiet conversation about things and I think I understand a little more. She admitted to still loving me and being attracted to me, but not in 'that way,' whatever that means. She also admitted that we could probably work this out, but that she doesn't 'want to.'

 

She thinks this is her last chance to see if she can find somebody better. Whether it's the neighbor or not, he's shown her that someone else will find her attractive and make HER a priority.

 

I think a lot is going on with her now. I'm worried about her. The postpartum thing could be a real issue, but I'm not sure how to address it. The hallucinations scare me, but she's in this meditation group with a bunch of other women who claim to see the same things. I don't get it. I think she would flip if I asked for a psych eval and she doesn't think she needs a counselor.

 

Also, she's going through enormous stresses right now. Like I said before, she has had a rocky relationship with her family for a while. Her family has two christmas celebrations, one is for her paternal grandparents, the other for everyone else. She refused to go to the one for the grandparents because it was just too much for our family. Her dad has been really hateful about it since then.

 

So, guess what happens? Her grandfather died last week and her grandmother is getting ready to any time. Her dad won't speak to her now and her mother is being really nasty and her syblings don't ever want to get involved.

 

She's now dealing with bad relationship with parents, with me, bills piling up and some physical problems. She has put on some weight after having 5 kids in 6 years (she'll be 37 next month;I'm 35, BTW). Now her cycles are really messed up and she's bleeding for weeks at a time. It's been more than three weeks now and she's beat. She has trouble sleeping at night, too.

 

I'm sorry to be so long-winded all the time, but there are just so many factors involved right now I don't think I can give an accurate picture of what's going on without including as much as I can. Thank you all so much for your advice and for taking the time to even talk to me. It really is helping me.

[CryingCanuck]

Dear Desperate,

I'm so sorry about what you're going through, I'm going through some similar things and it's been going on for 6 months now.

 

Let me give you one piece of advice, if you're going to do anything, it's get yourself prepared for the worst, meaning, prepare to end your marriage and prepare yourself for that outcome.

I'm not saying that that will be the final outcome, but I've learned the hard way that trying to fix things when the other isn't receptive only further enforces their feelings of wanting to get away.

Prepare yourself to do it on your own terms, let her be her own person and let her live her own life. If she see's that you're moving on, but leaving a door open the chances are much better of a reconsiliation down the road than they would be by you trying to fix things....

 

(I know fixing things right away is a "Man's" mindset, but it just doesn't work BELIEVE ME I've tried and been warned too.)

 

After a while in limbo, maybe even months and months, you sort of become immune to it and you might just not want to go back or if you do it's not just on her terms but yours also.

 

Now I would set perameters or guidelines on what's acceptable and what isn't and be prepared to stick to them. If you're seperated and you say you will be totally faithful, you do that, but if your wife balks at that, you simply say that that's fine but if you ever find out she's not while you're still both legally married to each other, you have a choice and you will follow though on it.

 

That gives her something to think about before she decides to take that plunge... meaning if she does have a sexual affair and you had warned her what the concequences of that is, you MUST FOLLOW THROUGH... This is for your own self respect..... She then realizes your serious...

 

 

Good luck bud, I was where you are, but after this amount of time, I'm simply in a holding pattern until I either totally let go and end the marriage or she does, or we try to fix this.... Only time will tell either way

 

C.C.

[Ladyjane14]

We had another really nasty fight yesterday over the phone. I was at work and I went into a private room and lost my temper big time. I didn't say anything mean to her, but I yelled really loud that another guy giving her flowers was a problem for me, but most especially since she told me she loved him and he loved her. Am I being unreasonable about this?

 

She said a lot of really hateful, angry things to me in this conversation and I calmed down a lot and tried to be reasonable. She's mad that I said this will hurt the children and will affect them for the rest of their lives. She kept saying I accused her of 'f***ing up' the kids. I really didn't.

 

Don't bother to allow her to drag you into these kind of discussions. She's supporting the WS Affair Fantasy. She has a view of how things will be after she extricates you from her life and YOU are frustrating her in those goals. She's unreasonable and YOU are trying to reason with her.

 

I noticed that you've been reading at MB, so what I think you'll want to do is look for The Carrot and Stick of Plan A. You'll find that authored by one of the members on the GQII board. If you can't find it...post to the forum and someone will get it for you.

 

Canuck is right. Your Plan A is mostly "carrot" at this point. It's time to show some "stick" too.

 

It is UNACCEPTABLE at this time for your wife to not follow up with her doctor. Frankly, you can't be assured that it is safe for your children to be in her care. She's telling you that she's seeing things. That's NOT normal.

 

If I were you, I'd make her an appointment with her GYN. Be sure to let the scheduler know that time is of the essence. If she refuses to go, you'll need to have consequences available. So, see a lawyer. You need to be prepared to protect your children.

 

Alot of what you're hearing from your wife is just "fog babble" from her affair, a verbal manifestation of her fantasy. She's trying to hurt your feelings so you'll let her go. You can't let it hit the target if you want to save your marriage. Be thick-skinned. If this thing turns around, you'll find that she didn't really mean most of what she's saying to you right now.

[SoleMate]

Both of you have made mistakes here, you've had an affair yourself. So, I would find it very self righteous of you to sit and lecture her and be angry when you've done the same thing.

 

I'd put it more of a fresh start. You made mistakes, she made mistakes. You're willing to take her back with open arms- and work on your marriage to make it better than ever- but she has to give up the other guy. Period. No contact for life. Then you guys get into marriage counseling!

Yup. I agree.

 

MB Plan A is definitely the right approach. LadyJane can help you finetune your Plan A activities. I think you actually have a fair chance at success...as long as the man across the street is clearly inferior to you in the ways your wife cares about (good looking, affectionate, makes good money, etc.). If he really is a prince, then be aware you have a tough row to hoe.

 

Hindsight is 20/20. Hindsight is telling me that it would have been MUCH easier and cheaper to prevent this affair, by keeping each other happy and satisfied at home, than it will be to end it once it has caught flame. You didn't put your marriage first, for years at a time.

 

Good luck, I am sympathetic.

[DesperateDad]

Thanks for the advice LJ and SoleMate. I know I've been a total dick in so many ways over the past few years. I'm beginning to think now that she is reacting to both that and the revelation of my affair. Thank God I didn't go farther with it.

 

Yesterday and today have been much better. My wife was away overnight with a group of other mothers from one of her clubs. And, yes, I'm sure that's where she was. I'm not exactly sure any more what her relationship is to this other guy. I think it was inappropriate for him to give her flowers, etc and to talk to her so much about personal things, but...

 

I've been sticking to Plan A pretty well and even doing some things that she's mentioned that I haven't done over the years. She seems extremely pleased by it, but hasn't mentioned our relationship since Friday when we had a couple of really bad arguments. I handled that very poorly.

 

She got home today and seemed really happy and relaxed. I did a lot of chores while she was gone, i.e. laundry, dishes, etc, all the while taking care of all the kids. She made another remark about how I'm changing and gave me a funny look.

 

It's driving me nuts, but I know she's on the fence still. She doesn't want to admit it because she doesn't want to give me false hope and she's still very angry. It's weird because sometimes she seems so cold toward me and other times she seems closer than ever.

 

I'm worried about using the stick because I don't want to push her at all now. Every time I've pushed lately it's only made things worse. The carrots seem to have a good effect almost immediately. How long should it take before she believes that I'm really changing for the better and agrees to try to work things out?

[DesperateDad]

Oh, and about the crazy stuff. The stuff she says she sees (besides that weird thing with the speaker) is when she's meditating with her group and listening to weird music and all that stuff. I'm inclined to believe it's imagination coupled with the power of suggestion. I don't think she's nuts, just really tired and stressed...

[Ladyjane14]

The thing that continues to bother me, though, is her relationship with the neighbor. It seems to have slacked off a bit....

 

I just don't know where things are with them. I'm thinking about having another conversation with him and setting down some ground rules, but I'm terribly afraid she'll get pissed off again about me trying to control her life....

 

I talked to him over the phone last week for a while and she got a little upset with me because he wouldn't tell her what we talked about. I told her right up front what we talked about, but he told her to ask me. WTF? Are they really just friends, then? Am I overreacting? But, what about the feelings they have for each other?

 

I don't think you're overreacting. It doesn't really matter what the explicit nature of the relationship is. Did they have sex. Did they not have sex. The details don't matter when your marriage and family dynamic are being destroyed.

 

Your wife has stepped over the line, and friendship with this man is now impossible. She did that. Not you. She has to go NO CONTACT. She can't tell you she's in love with the neighbor guy and expect that you're going to tolerate his continued presence in your marriage.

 

Now, I can't say that I don't feel sorry for this lady. Truly, I do. Six kids and no help on the homefront would drive ANYBODY bonkers. But that's still not going to hold water as an excuse for continued infidelity. In the end, it's just not feasible for her to stay married to you....and not give up the neighbor guy. Her emotional infidelity deprives you of the committment you deserve, and you can't be expected to live like that forever.

 

I agree with Solemate that you've probably got a pretty good chance at repairing the marriage. Unless your wife has a history of flaky behavior...I think this is probably an incident, symptomatic of emotional turmoil. So, if you can't describe her as a serial cheater, you're looking at a situation that will repair itself if she'll just get the help she needs.

 

This is where "the stick" comes in.

 

I didn't know about MB or any 'plans' when my marriage was in crisis. I guess you could describe my methods as Plan A, but at the time...I was just doing what I had to do.

 

The first thing I did on D-Day was see a lawyer. I did that before I even confronted him. Basically, I said, "This is how much our divorce is going to cost". I wasn't playing. I wasn't giving out an ultimatum. I was done. All I was interested in was getting his sorry ass out of my house and moving on without him.

 

But what I found out during that confrontation was that he REALLY didn't want a divorce. He just wanted my attention. He had some physical ailments and was going through a bit of a midlife crisis. This was causing some depression for him, and his behavior was in response to that. He was looking for ways to feel better.

 

Armed with that information, it was easy enough to get in the game and put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

 

This wasn't about his character. It was a symptom of some life changes he was going through. He's all better now.

 

But I had inadvertently played hardball with him and he had to take me seriously. I gave him PLENTY of "carrot" afterward....but I had shown him the "stick" too. He wasn't under any illusions at all that I would be amicable as an ex-wife. There wasn't going to be any of this 'best friends' crap. That's not me. If we had divorced he would've become persona non grata in my life. That was a given.

 

So, I wasn't fighting the WS Affair Fantasy as hard as some folks have to. It's difficult to get some of these WS to shake loose from it. Their minds are trapped in the fantasy bubble and they can't see the reality of their situation.

 

Your wife's reality is that with SIX kids to take care of, and not enough money to run two households...it would behoove her to get on board and fix this marriage!

She's fighting that reality and feeling trapped by it.

 

Your Plan A pokes holes in the fantasy bubble. You're proving to her that she was wrong about you. You really can be a great husband to her. You really can be a guy she can count on.

 

And that pisses her off.

It's interfering with her fantasy, because you've taken the bullseye off your forehead by being a great guy. That's your carrot at work!

 

The stick is going to work just the same. It's going to poke more holes in the fantasy bubble because it's all about showing the reality of the situation. And believe it or not, it will also take the bullseye off your forehead because it's going to require her to make her own choices and be responsible for them.

 

You aren't her jailer. Your life isn't all about making hers miserable. You love her, and you want her to be happy. You want to add to her life, not subtract from it. Carrot.

 

But if she wants to go...."there's the door. I'm not going to allow you to take my home, or my children though. You're going to be on your own, and I'm not going to be your buddy and help you dismantle our family. And I'm not going to hide your dirt under the rug either." Stick.

 

When you open the cage door, she's no longer trapped. She's choosing her environment. When you see an attorney and you can say what the EXACT consequences of her choices are going to be regarding the home and kids, you clarify her information and set the parameters for her to make an informed decision.

 

At some point, she's going to have to get in the game. It's not reasonable to expect you to tolerate living your life indefinately with a woman who loves the neighbor and not you. She needs to start seeing that there are limits to your tolerance.

 

Now, I'm not suggesting that you rattle your saber at her and become a hardass overnight. She's been through an awful lot and she needs some TLC. But your Plan A can't work if the consequences of her choices aren't clear to her. Ultimately, she's going to be responsible for whatever decisions she makes. She ought to know in advance of making those choices what the fallout is going to be.

 

You can chip away at her fantasy bit by bit. You don't have to solve this entire mess in one day...but you are going to have to get to work with your 'chipping'.

 

If I were you, I'd see an attorney and find out EXACTLY where I stand. Call around, some will give you a consult for free and some will charge you a minimal initial fee. You don't have to put anybody on retainer yet. And you don't have to tell your wife you saw a lawyer. Radical honesty is for spouses not wayward spouses. You tell her when it suits your purposes for her to know.

 

Then I'd start working on her to go to see her GYN. There's plenty of reason for her to follow up anyway:

Now her cycles are really messed up and she's bleeding for weeks at a time. It's been more than three weeks now and she's beat. She has trouble sleeping at night, too.

 

If I were you, I'd go with her if she'll allow it. That way you can make certain that she gets a depression screening. The first time I sent my husband for one, he blew a bunch of sunshine up the doctor's skirt and didn't give out accurate information.

 

And here's the hard part.... She needs to be in NC with the neighbor. (You do too for that matter. He's not your friend. Friends don't get involved romantically with your wife!)

 

This is not a negotiable point. You can't be married to her while she's emotionally involved with someone else. Her involvement with OM negates any possibility of real and lasting reconciliation. It's not fair for her to keep you in a game that you can't win. This has to be a boundary because it's something that ultimately will prevent you from being able to remain on as her husband.

 

There has to be consequences for failure to respect this boundary. This is why you need to see a lawyer. So you can start setting up consequences.

[DesperateDad]

Thanks again, LJ (and thanks CryingCanuck. I forgot to mention you before). The carrot seems to be working pretty well at this point. We had a pretty good weekend. I tried to be very accomodating to whatever my wife needed and she seemed to respond well to it.

 

She's planning on going to see her OB this week, I think. We've spent a lot of time talking the last couple of days and I took the day off yesterday for her grandmother's funeral so we had some time yesterday, too.

 

She again expressed surprise a few times about how I'm acting. I must really have been a jerk for the last few years. She actually said a couple of times, "where is my husband and what have you done with him?"

 

One big difference in my behavior is that I'm not dragging my feet all the time and I'm not getting angry. It hit me that I have always seemed unwilling to agree with her for some reason. I'm not sure why. Now, I'm trying to pay attention to the way I talk to her and how I answer questions.

 

I'm still concerned about using a stick at this point because the carrot seems to be working so well. I just don't want to screw things up. I get the feeling she might be waiting to see how long my changed personality lasts. Some of the things she's said made vague reference to our situation being temporary.

 

I think the stick that I will have to use the soonest will be financial. One of the biggest problems for me in our relationship was the lack of control over money. We agreed early on in our marriage that she would run the household finances because I was busy with school and she didn't mind.

 

With our financial troubles, though, it's only increased my stress because I've felt like I had no control over our financial situation. We have some relief now because of the money we got from her grandfather's estate, but there's honestly too much sitting in our account right now. I want to spend all of it on paying off debts and a couple of improvements to the house. She wants to hold on to some as a buffer and I'm sure, in case she has to hire a lawyer.

 

I don't want that money sitting there for several reasons. Interest is accruing on balances due, money sitting in the checking account tends to get spent on things it shouldn't, and also I don't want her to always have that threat hanging over me like an axe.

 

I almost forgot to mention something else that happened. I've talked about how our teenagers are dating. Well, his teenage son heard something from someone about him and my wife and confronted him on it. He had to admit to him that he had feelings for my wife. He happened to be out of town on training the same night she was out of town, so his son actually demanded proof that they weren't together. He had to show him a bunch of dated receipts before he was satisfied. Still, it caused a lot of friction and his STBXW is convinced something is going on. He's agreed to stay away, but his kids still are over here a lot.

 

The NC thing is tricky. I've pushed as far as I feel I can right now and it appears that there is still some contact, but it's minimal. I know it would be better to have none at all, but I've been spending a lot more time with the wife lately at the times she normally would have been talking to him.

 

I feel like I'm starting to look better in her eyes than before. Another funny thing is that this guy is a lot like me in some ways, but not as good, if that makes sense. Please don't take this as arrogance, but I would win out on just about everything except for income. He does make a bit more than me, but doesn't have seven people to support or a bunch of student loan debt. Normally, I don't think there would be much competition.

 

So, that's where we are right now. It's kind of a limbo again, but things seem to be slowly improving. I have to thank you all again for the great advice. I owe whatever progress I've made so far to you.

[SoleMate]

I'm happy to hear that the changes you have made have had such a good effect. It does seem as if you two have a real chance to put this back together.