what if everything you believed was wrong?

[bluetuesday]

if your current religious beliefs were incorrect or incomplete, would you want to know?

 

this question has formed much of my adult life. because for me, the answer is a resounding YES! which means i have tried to be a seeker of the truth, whatever that truth might be, rather than someone who adheres to beliefs that may be wrong. i have tried to remain open to the possibility that god still has many things to teach me.

 

and since i feel that no worldly religion has the monopoly on being right - because god simply cannot be limited to what is found in books, rituals and doctrines, but must be experienced in the heart - i have remained a seeker.

 

progressive relevation intrigues me. if jesus were alive in body today, would his teachings be the same as they were 2,000 years ago? you see, i don't think they would.

 

in the same way that the laws given by god to moses were suited to the consciousness and limited understanding of the day, jesus altered and added to these teachings because between moses and jesus, the human race had progressed to the point where it could come to a deeper understanding of god. so why should the same not be true now? after all, the human race has again moved on.

 

and since we believe that jesus IS alive, in spirit, why would he not want to share that more advanced level of teaching with today's children of god?

 

i believe that when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

 

a small band of people in galilee in the first century were ready for their teacher, and he appeared and changed the world. jesus spoke openly, he didn't hide his teachings. yet, we know that the early christian church edited those teachings into what we now call the bible.

 

what if the editing was fallable? and being done by humans, all of whom had an agenda, of course it was.

 

but what if jesus, in spirit, wanted to put the incorrect teachings right? would you risk throwing in the towel on everything you think you know, and be willing to look with an open heart at the teachings of a man who claims that jesus is now speaking through him and righting 2,000 years of church wrongs?

 

i guarantee you, no one is more skeptical about these things than me. i am not easily swayed. i am logical in my beliefs - which is why some aspects of traditionally christianity always nagged away at me. such as the church's insistence that jesus' sacrifice was necessary in order for man to reach god - yet jesus told us explicitly that we could do everything he had done (john 14:12) and therefore reach god ourselves.

 

i'd really value any responses you have to this website i've found. the site has nothing to do with me, i'm not selling ot or promoting it, i just found it fascinating. it takes some reading - there are a couple of thousand pages. but you can get a general idea pretty quickly.

 

google "ask real jesus" and you'll find it. then tell me what you think. i'd love to know.

 

i warn you, it's like marmite. you'll either love it or hate it.

[blind_otter]

I approached it with skepticism, but I enjoy the idea of christnature. I did a rosary today and I felt the meditative quality of it, as well as the spiritual element. For me, I feel that I need both to further my spiritual awakening, and it may be a mistake to try to have one without the other. There is an archetypal yearning for divinity.

 

The buddha said that you should not follow the way because you are instructed to do so, but because it is truth, for you. There are a multitude of spiritual paths because there are a multitude of individuals who understand divinity in their own way. Better to find a way that is the most rewarding and enriching for you rather than following a route that has been trod so many times that the path is indistinguishible. At least it means something to you, if you have to forge the way yourself, at least sometimes.

[bluetuesday]

absolutely. i feel the search for truth has always been about uncovering what is already true within you, rather than finding a new truth through this or that external path.

 

one of the things i was particularly impressed with on the site was the teaching NOT to make the teachings on the site your idol. to use the teachings only to lead you on an inward path to direct communication with god. it's the first time i'm aware of a teaching (certainly is western religion) NOT claiming to be solely THE WAY.

[burning 4 revenge]

http://www.positiveatheism.org

[bluetuesday]

so what did you think about the site i mentioned, b4r?

[burning 4 revenge]

so what did you think about the site i mentioned, b4r?

 

I don't see one

[bluetuesday]

then you're not looking properly! i am not advertising or expressly supporting the site, which is why i didn't post a direct link. but i told you what to google. it will be the first site you come to if you search for those key words as i instructed.

[Bogun]

if your current religious beliefs were incorrect or incomplete, would you want to know?

There are inaccuracies and mis-truths in all religious texts, but if you base your beliefs on HOW the religion changes people and affects their behaviour then I think you can see the value of that religion. There are a lot of christians full of s*** in the world that ignore the basic teachings of jesus christ (biggest ones being forgiveness and loving everyone, even your so called enemies, HELLO MR BUSH?), but can quote bible passages at you off by heart. In a similar way the koran has been misinterpreted by the fanatics in the middle east. Just so you dont think I'm on a christian/islam bashing mission, buddhism has unfortunately become just as corrupt as other religions in certain areas of the world.

 

My point is that the texts may be incorrect and incomplete but the truth behind them is always there and you can see it in the people that are genuine about their spiritual practice. From my own experiences with spiritually advanced people, you get a very similar "vibe" for want of a better word from an experienced buddhist monk as you do from a jesuit priest or christian monk with a similiar level of experience.

[burning 4 revenge]

so what did you think about the site i mentioned, b4r?

 

It is a little new age for my tastes but i appreciate the thought

[Chris777]

if your current religious beliefs were incorrect or incomplete, would you want to know?

 

this question has formed much of my adult life. because for me, the answer is a resounding YES! which means i have tried to be a seeker of the truth, whatever that truth might be, rather than someone who adheres to beliefs that may be wrong. i have tried to remain open to the possibility that god still has many things to teach me.

 

Where did you start out though?

 

and since i feel that no worldly religion has the monopoly on being right - because god simply cannot be limited to what is found in books, rituals and doctrines, but must be experienced in the heart - i have remained a seeker.

Have you ever thought about the possibility of God himself purpously limiting himself in one religion if it were in fact the one and only true religion?

The allegations and assumptions are made that the bible has been tampered with and is corrupt, and incomplete, lacking, but is it really?

if all things are possible for God, then is it also possible that he purpously guided us to one true path, over all others?

Particularly when one and only one path will work.

Think about eating just because someone decides they dont want to take food in through their mouth, doesn't mean that they can just absorb it through their skin because they dont like eating.

(and yes I know it is a bit of an unusual analogy)

 

progressive relevation intrigues me. if jesus were alive in body today, would his teachings be the same as they were 2,000 years ago? you see, i don't think they would.

 

other than our technology what do you think has changed with the overall human condition, that would require a new revelation?

what is new under the sun ?

 

in the same way that the laws given by god to moses were suited to the consciousness and limited understanding of the day, jesus altered and added to these teachings because between moses and jesus, the human race had progressed to the point where it could come to a deeper understanding of god. so why should the same not be true now?

He himself said he did not come to destroy the law but to fufill it.

again what progression was their? his own people didn't even recognize him, just as many who proclaim loudly that they are christians will be in for a shock when he returns and denys them because their fruit does not match who they proclaim to be.

 

after all, the human race has again moved on.

have we moved on, or rather further away from God?

 

and since we believe that jesus IS alive, in spirit, why would he not want to share that more advanced level of teaching with today's children of god?

Look closely and carefully at what he said ant taught, it is in agreement with everything that was stated in the old testament.

Just as anything that alledges to be a new "improved" "deeper" "more profound" or what ever buzz word is used to sugar coat the so called new revelation should also fit what had been given in the past. Test it. I myself don't believe in new revelation. I do however believe in him showing me the truth in something he already stated that I had previously not understood. Their is profound information in what the Bible already says that many fail to notice, in their search for "newer, and better truth" Think of it as a swiss army knife, as well as the so called new revelations many profess to have. Their are things written that do not make sense until the time is right. Under Gods timing. Just as Jesus fufilled many of the old testament prophecies IN THEIR APPOINTED TIME , their will also be more unveiled when the time is right, if one bothers to read and seek.

 

i believe that when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

When the student is ready maby they will see what has been their all along.

 

a small band of people in galilee in the first century were ready for their teacher, and he appeared and changed the world. jesus spoke openly, he didn't hide his teachings. yet, we know that the early christian church edited those teachings into what we now call the bible.

Elaborate on how "we know " they edited them.

what if the editing was fallable? and being done by humans, all of whom had an agenda, of course it was.

You anwsered your own question out of assumption did you not?

the Bible contains explicit warnings against the tampering with of any of the text. not to mention it was compiled and translated intitally in a time when intentionally altering it, could mean death. Many of the intial translators were put to death. It was important enough for them to translate it, and to do it correctly, that they were willing to sacrifice their lives to do it. Not to many modern transaltions have that sacrificial overtone to them. Now all it takes is the tapping of keys to put something in print, on the screen, with little to no verification, as to whether or not it is actually true, or just musings of the author.

 

but what if jesus, in spirit, wanted to put the incorrect teachings right? would you risk throwing in the towel on everything you think you know, and be willing to look with an open heart at the teachings of a man who claims that jesus is now speaking through him and righting 2,000 years of church wrongs?

You mean like mohammed, or Joseph Smith, or any of a LENGTHY

list of people over the past 2000 years who have also made the same accusations? TEST THEM (and I have already thrown in the towel of many false beliefs I once held, before I actually researched them myself)

i guarantee you, no one is more skeptical about these things than me. i am not easily swayed. i am logical in my beliefs - which is why some aspects of traditionally christianity always nagged away at me. such as the church's insistence that jesus' sacrifice was necessary in order for man to reach god - yet jesus told us explicitly that we could do everything he had done (john 14:12) and therefore reach god ourselves.

You should be skeptical of what a church may say, if it does not line up with what the Bible itself says.

Your interpretation of John 14:12 is liberal to say the least. Think about what you are saying. That sinful man can, of his own power, reach up and perform works and thereby aquire equality with the Son of God. Look again at what it was that Satan offered Eve in the garden. Another Way. An alternative to the absolute, truth that God had already given to both her and Adam. In effect offering them godhood. In much the same way he hiself sought it as referenced in

 

Isa 14: [13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

[14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

 

Notice how it is of his own power, and his offer is for us to act under our own power, our temptation at being our own boss, our own god.

I have no doubt I will be railed on as , being a sheep, But I contend we are all sheep, in need of a shepherd. Some seek one, some stray, and some will fall into the claws of the wolf. If the sheep stay close to the Sheperd, he will keep them from the wolf, as well as provide for them. Those that stray will either starve, or end up as food for the wolves. (New perspective on an absolute truth)

Also keep in mind that God says he will put our enemies, under our feet, and that vengance belongs to him alone. Far cry from us doing things under our own power.

 

i'd really value any responses you have to this website i've found. the site has nothing to do with me, i'm not selling ot or promoting it, i just found it fascinating. it takes some reading - there are a couple of thousand pages. but you can get a general idea pretty quickly.

And instead of trying to sift through the empty sand of many of the sub pages on the site look at the ones under "about us" and then "kims story" and "A new direction for this website"which will tell you what their agenda is, rather than lead you around in circles using as many feel good words(seemingly endlessly) as they can before finally getting to the point about what they actually believe.

 

Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law until all had been fufilled.(Matt 5:18)

 

I have little doubt the same could be said of the website alluded to.

(If i were a Gambler I would wager on it)

 

google "ask real jesus" and you'll find it. then tell me what you think. i'd love to know.

 

i warn you, it's like marmite. you'll either love it or hate it.

Also notice how the web site is selling books and cd,s.

 

Remember how Jesus did things like that? Remember how he went into the colluseums, and ampitheaters, so that he could take advantage of the things men had created with their hands? Remember how he sold his knowledge to the masses?

 

He didn't.

 

He didn't have to, he was God.

 

Look at the fruit.

 

And TEST the claims of any man, as all men are liars.

But Jesus was no liar.

[Just another teen]

Have you ever thought about the possibility of God himself purpously limiting himself in one religion if it were in fact the one and only true religion?

Yes, but if you are saying that Christianity is the one and true religion, then I would disagree because I believe God likes this idea we call love. And from the hateful condemnation many Christians seem to show, they are not exactly promoting love.

 

if all things are possible for God, then is it also possible that he purpously guided us to one true path, over all others?

People can equally assert that it is possible for God to guide different people to different paths. This I think actually makes more sense considering that not all people think the same, and surely God would know this.

 

Think about eating just because someone decides they dont want to take food in through their mouth, doesn't mean that they can just absorb it through their skin because they dont like eating.

You can eat through a feeding tube, can you not?

 

other than our technology what do you think has changed with the overall human condition, that would require a new revelation?

More people are educated, if Jesus Christ aims to make an impact, he would have to support his statements with concrete logic and reasoning.

 

again what progression was their? his own people didn't even recognize him, just as many who proclaim loudly that they are christians will be in for a shock when he returns and denys them because their fruit does not match who they proclaim to be.

Indeed, it would be so funny to see the look on those gay bashers faces, when they realize that Jesus abhors their actions.

 

Many of the intial translators were put to death. It was important enough for them to translate it, and to do it correctly, that they were willing to sacrifice their lives to do it.

Err, are you sure they were not put to death because their translations does not fit what the church or the authority wants?

 

As for the topic title. It would not matter one bit, provided that the correction to my belief would be more beneficial to me

[blind_otter]

Have you ever thought about the possibility of God himself purpously limiting himself in one religion if it were in fact the one and only true religion?

The allegations and assumptions are made that the bible has been tampered with and is corrupt, and incomplete, lacking, but is it really?

if all things are possible for God, then is it also possible that he purpously guided us to one true path, over all others?

 

No, I disagree. I don't think God, being infinite and everything, could be encompassed by one linear, human religion. In God's image? Yes, we are made in God's image. But I don't think it works in reverse. God made in the image of man? Egotistical.

 

To worship the church as an institution is to commit idolotry. It goes specifically against the 10 commandments.

 

Of course the bible has been tampered with. You can read the New Revised Standard Version and almost pick out the portions that were added or tampered with to reflect the current sociological attitude at the time it was translated! You can take any literature class, any at all, where you read english translations of texts originally written in another language, I've read Gabriel Garcia Marquez in both spanish and english, and the english versions are ALWAYS colored with the interpreters attitudes.

 

And the post above me is quite good, for "just another teen". I would also lean more towards the idea that God created multiple paths because everyone is different, and it seems to me that loving worship of divinity is better, in all ways, than closing out people because they don't measure up.

 

Jesus liked to hang out with money lenders, prostitutes, he took in the poor, the diseased -- the outcasts of society.

 

IMO, he would still be hanging with the outcasts of society today, and AFAIK mainstream christianity doesn't do the christ thing. They don't tend to open their arms up lovingly to outcasts.

 

Chris, you sound like the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son!

 

Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. "Your brother has come," he replied, "and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound." The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. But he answered his father, "Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!" "My son," the father said, "you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found." (Luke 15:11-32)

[Chris777]

Yes, but if you are saying that Christianity is the one and true religion, then I would disagree because I believe God likes this idea we call love. And from the hateful condemnation many Christians seem to show, they are not exactly promoting love.

like I said before look at the fruit, if someone claims to be something, like say a pharacee claiming to be a son of Abraham, yet their actions demonstrate otherwise, are they what they claim to be?

and as for love, I would hope Christ willingness to endure crucifiction, is a good enough demonstration for you of his love for us.

 

People can equally assert that it is possible for God to guide different people to different paths. This I think actually makes more sense considering that not all people think the same, and surely God would know this.

But where did the notion, that differing paths to God is even possible originate? Certainly not from either the Old, or New Testaments.

The Bible calls our situation a spiritual WAR. In war the most effective tactic for crippling the enemy is confusion. A straight line is simple, but when it forks, a choice must be made, as to which path to take, and if it splinters again, more choices. A multitude of choices represents confusion, hence the problem of having so many so called "paths" to God. If someone spends a large portion of their short lifes exploring all of the paths they will in effect arrive nowhere, as they are continually walking in circles repeatedly.

When I allude to Christianity as the Truth out of confusion, part of what I am refering to is the Red Herring of the crucifiction. In that it goes completely against type of any other "messianic" claimant.

 

You can eat through a feeding tube, can you not?

that wasn't my point, It was that just because someone doesn't like something or dissagree with it, doesnt mean, that they can just do whatever, and still expect the same outcome. If you want to get to the moon, but you hate to fly, you will never reach the moon, by doing anything else instead of flying, no matter how much you might, walk, drive, swim, dive, or dig. None of those "paths" will ever get you to the destination of the moon.

 

More people are educated, if Jesus Christ aims to make an impact, he would have to support his statements with concrete logic and reasoning.

If more people are educated, then why is it so difficult for them to even read the bible? What has he said that is not supportable? Again you are changing the question, I want to know how humanity as a whole has progressed? America is far from represenative of the globe.

 

Indeed, it would be so funny to see the look on those gay bashers faces, when they realize that Jesus abhors their actions.

I pity both those who bash them, and offer no alternative other than condemnation, as well as the homosexuals , who dont even recognize ther sin. and in many cases are proud of their defiance, to the Bible.

People bash Christianity as being alledgedly intolerant, and exclusive, and arrogant, but it offers anyone, a chance at salvation. the problem is so many reject it, without investigating. Something I myself was guilty of in the past.

 

Err, are you sure they were not put to death because their translations does not fit what the church or the authority wants?

Their are an awful lot of verses condeming those in authority, that somehow escaped the alledged editing process. If it really was edited to suit those in power, then why is it that they missed so mamny of the very verses that condemn them? Look into it for yourself, I had to.

 

As for the topic title. It would not matter one bit, provided that the correction to my belief would be more beneficial to me

 

That is the place I cam from, I believed everything I heard, and was taught, and then I learned it was all wrong, in the light of the scripture.

[Tim'sAngel]

Wow. I've read every post and have to say it seems alot of people put alot of thought to what they believe in. Growing up in a strict christian home, it was never even an option to venture "outside" even in thought. I left my home and the church as a rebelious teen and did alot of stupid things. Now that I am older and more emotionally stable (not to mention wiser) I am for the first time to able consider the beliefs I was raised in could be flawed. It was scary. Very scary. My S/O is 36 and has studied religion since the begining of his 20's. He has pointed out several theories and even hard facts that amazed me about the christian church and how many misconceptions there are among christianity. I am a very logical person as is S/O so it takes more than a book to prove to me that there is just one way to Heaven.

 

I can't believe humans could translate from one language to another w/out changing something. I wish I could get into all that S/O explained to me about the Roman church and how they influenced the writing of the Bible... I can't remember everything that was told to me, but it made a lot of sense. Too much sense to ignore.

 

I do believe in God. I have felt his presence. That I will never question. The details of salvation seem to differ in every christian religion, and there are how many of them? How do we know which is right and wich is wrong? Is there a right and a wrong way?

 

Something interesting S/O pointed out to me is if you take every religion, christian and not christian, they ALL say the same thing, "BE A GOOD PERSON"

[Chris777]

No, I disagree. I don't think God, being infinite and everything, could be encompassed by one linear, human religion. In God's image? Yes, we are made in God's image. But I don't think it works in reverse. God made in the image of man? Egotistical.

I don't thing you understood what i was trying to say. In most of these discussions it is always assumed, that Christianity itself is a egotistical, because their are so many people who claim to be christians, but demonstrate, through their actions, and words, that they don't match what the scriptures say.

What I am saying is to look below the surface of that.

In ohn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

That statement in itself could be misconstrewed as egotistical, unless it is true.

Like I mentioned in the previous reply, the crucifiction is a red herring that tends to cause Jesus to stand out, apart from all others. I don't know what you personally think on it, but before I believed in this, I really didn't have anything, but a superficial knowledge of what the bible actually said, combined, with alot of notions, that I learned were completely wrong, after reading, and researching the text myself.

The bible made me see that I was corrupted, and sinful, something that was completely opposed, to my old notion of myself of being "basically a good person". Much of what we assume is christianity, is in fact metely the traditions of men, something Jesus, repeatedly condemned, in those who held the power when he was here.

(Again alluding to my question, that if the scriptures had been completely corrupted, then why did those that alledgedly corrupted it leave behind so much evidence against themselves? How many times does he say "it is written" or "have you not read"? in reference to the very scriptures so many alledge are corrupted)

 

To worship the church as an institution is to commit idolotry. It goes specifically against the 10 commandments.

I never said to worship the church, the church is our family, brothers, and sisters.

 

Of course the bible has been tampered with. You can read the New Revised Standard Version and almost pick out the portions that were added or tampered with to reflect the current sociological attitude at the time it was translated!

And I suppose it would not be possible for you to be assuming it has been tampered with, because it does not match your own personal sociological world views?

When I first began reading the bible, for myself, I ran across all sorts of verses, and views, that were a slap in the face to the beliefs I had held at the time. Feminism is one particular point that stands out.

I was offended, at a surface reading of many of the verses delegating power to the man over the woman, as it appeared, that women were relegated to being second class citizens. But upon further reading ,and studying, it became apparent their was more to it, than money and power. It has a purpose. One of which is to cut down on confusion, by making the man responcible, and ACCOUNTABLE, for all the major decisions. Just as a military comander is in charge of all the subordiantes. It may not sound fair, and many protest it, because they disagree, but it is that way for a reason. It does not say, or mean, that the woman is somehow less valuable to God, or that she should be treated harshly. The man is to love his wife in the way Christ loves us, and be willing to sacrifice his life for her. Kind of odd if it was writen to opress women isn't it?

If you want a more modern example, take children. Most parents love their children above all else in this world, but does that mean they should obey their children? In most families the children are in fact the most important members of the family, yet they in fact have the lowest rank in the family. Their rank and position does not change their precious value in any way whatsoever. Just as the wife being subordinate to the husband does not change her importance, or preciousness to him.

 

And yes I am aware that things do not always work out that way, and that many men abuse their wives and children, and make completely bone headed decisions, decisions that many women are more than eager to step in and make. But I remind you that we are in a fallen and corrupted world, and that, the husband will be held accountable for both the good and bad treatment, of others ,as wel las his decisions, for the family being the head of it.

 

 

You can take any literature class, any at all, where you read english translations of texts originally written in another language, I've read Gabriel Garcia Marquez in both spanish and english, and the english versions are ALWAYS colored with the interpreters attitudes.

It's not that hard to look at the original hebrew and greek for a comparison, of the original and the translation. To see for yourself

And I agree with the attitudes comment, that is why I distain all of the modern translations, for their liberal, attitude in translation, and their lack of reverence, and quite frankly their lack of fear in the warnings that God placed in the scripture, for altering it.

I personally tend to lean towards the King James myself, for a variety of reasons, on the top of which is scriptural. Plus it is no longer under copyright, and thus has little incentive for publishers to profit from it, verses, a new more modern (and more profitable) (and quite frankly unnessesary)translation.

 

And the post above me is quite good, for "just another teen". I would also lean more towards the idea that God created multiple paths because everyone is different, and it seems to me that loving worship of divinity is better, in all ways, than closing out people because they don't measure up.

That is the whole point of christianity, is that NO ONE measures up, and that Jesus came to offer salvation to ALL. No one is closed out, other than by the traditions of men, and not the scriptures themselves.

We are all in need of salvation, all sinners, all on equal ground needing a savior.

I recognized my sinfulness, and my continual need of a savior, in that I don't have the capability to save myself, you can believe what you want about me, All I can do is testify to what I know.

Jesus liked to hang out with money lenders, prostitutes, he took in the poor, the diseased -- the outcasts of society.

Only the sick need a doctor, and I was one of them, don't assume I have forgotten from where I have fallen, I haven't, and in many ways I am still in need, being both sick, and poor. But I know he has not forsaken me, just as he won't forsake anyone else that seeks him.

IMO, he would still be hanging with the outcasts of society today, and AFAIK mainstream christianity doesn't do the christ thing. They don't tend to open their arms up lovingly to outcasts.

You are preaching to the choir, but then again, if you look at their fruit, what are they really?

Chris, you sound like the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son!

do I sound like the older brother, or do I sound like the grateful brother, who is trying to convince the rest of his family to return home as well, and be forgiven?

[Just another teen]

like I said before look at the fruit, if someone claims to be something, like say a pharacee claiming to be a son of Abraham, yet their actions demonstrate otherwise, are they what they claim to be?

By the actions of many Christian fundamentalists (remember they think the bible is the literal word of God), they do not simply fulfill Christ's statement of "love thy neighbor". Do you agree that they are not Christians?

 

and as for love, I would hope Christ willingness to endure crucifiction, is a good enough demonstration for you of his love for us.

Wrong. I am talking about the followers of Christianity not Jesus. They are not showing love, they are condemning those who do not share their beliefs.

 

But where did the notion, that differing paths to God is even possible originate? Certainly not from either the Old, or New Testaments.

It came from the belief that God is complex and capable of working through different and countless ways. The Old and New testaments are merely part of the literary work called the Bible. I do not deem it as a reliable basis of my ideas.

 

The Bible calls our situation a spiritual WAR. In war the most effective tactic for crippling the enemy is confusion. A straight line is simple, but when it forks, a choice must be made, as to which path to take, and if it splinters again, more choices.

Nobody should be confused. All they need to do is worry about what path is right for them, not what path is right for others. Spirituality should never be about having a dick measuring contest with others on who got it right, it is supposed to be about becoming a better person that can be of service to God and to the world he has created. At least that is what I think. There may not be any scriptural verse to support this, but that is okay as I had already turned my back on the Catholic church. I just try to emulate the actions of what I deem are good religious people.

 

If someone spends a large portion of their short lifes exploring all of the paths they will in effect arrive nowhere, as they are continually walking in circles repeatedly.

Then it is their fault. They rejected the path that was right for them and tried to meddle on what path others should take.

 

that wasn't my point, It was that just because someone doesn't like something or dissagree with it, doesnt mean, that they can just do whatever, and still expect the same outcome. If you want to get to the moon, but you hate to fly, you will never reach the moon, by doing anything else instead of flying, no matter how much you might, walk, drive, swim, dive, or dig. None of those "paths" will ever get you to the destination of the moon.

The problem with your assertion is that spirituality is quite abstract and you are comparing it with something that is simply different. There are other analogies that would support my assertion, for instance, writing. Not all have the same hand writing style, but despite the difference, the outcome is the same: You are able to write something.

 

If more people are educated, then why is it so difficult for them to even read the bible?

Just because you are educated does not mean that you are going to be interested in reading the bible.

 

Again you are changing the question, I want to know how humanity as a whole has progressed?

What more do you want? Now we have the luxury to question and reject unreasonable dogma which in the past is subjected to extermination.

 

America is far from represenative of the globe.

I am not only talking about America. I am also talking about Europe and majority if not all of Asia. I am not quite sure about Africa and South America.

 

People bash Christianity as being alledgedly intolerant, and exclusive, and arrogant, but it offers anyone, a chance at salvation.

Christianity just like any religion offers anyone a chance for salvation. It is not the only path. I think that anybody who believes otherwise is delusional and committing a sin, particularly speaking for God.

 

Their are an awful lot of verses condeming those in authority, that somehow escaped the alledged editing process.

Actually I take back what I said. Can you provide me the names of those translators who were killed? I do not have a powerful grasp of history but I believe the Church discourages people actually interpreting the bible themselves, therefore it stands to reason that they do not really like to translate the Bible into any mainstream language.

 

If it really was edited to suit those in power, then why is it that they missed so mamny of the very verses that condemn them?

How does this prove that in many interpretation and translation of the bible, authorities actually allowed anything they do not agree with? I find it hard to believe that the Chruch that was so eager to burn suspected heretics would be okay with something like this. And do you have concrete evidences to back your claim up?

 

That is the place I cam from, I believed everything I heard, and was taught, and then I learned it was all wrong, in the light of the scripture.

I view scriptures as a way God manifesting himself to people back then, not as infallible truth, I do not have much interest in it with the exception of verses, people use to argue their points.

 

If you want a more modern example, take children. Most parents love their children above all else in this world, but does that mean they should obey their children?

Having different paths that lead to him is not the same as God obeying humans, I do not understand what you are trying to say.

[Chris777]

By the actions of many Christian fundamentalists (remember they think the bible is the literal word of God), they do not simply fulfill Christ's statement of "love thy neighbor". Do you agree that they are not Christians?

I believe the bible is the literal word of God.

but as to the rest of your statement, has that not what I've been saying, that they don't line up with the scriptures, and that is extremely fishy to say the least.

 

Wrong. I am talking about the followers of Christianity not Jesus. They are not showing love, they are condemning those who do not share their beliefs.

Why are you looking at people? or rather the followers, rather than the leader himself?

and again as stated above do you realy believe it is Jesus that they follow?

It is like the website that the original poster alluded to, they charge a fee for you to become like they are, when did Jesus, ever need anything from us?, much less take? but how often did he give?

 

It came from the belief that God is complex and capable of working through different and countless ways. The Old and New testaments are merely part of the literary work called the Bible. I do not deem it as a reliable basis of my ideas.

Do you really know what the Bible says though? Or are you basing your opinions on what you have heard?

The Bible clearly states that Satan is actively trying to steer mankind away from God. And the point I am trying to make, is have you ever considered, that the other so called "paths" are merely distraction from the one true path. If their were no satan actively attacking us, then the so called many paths ideaology might have more merit.

But again If that were true, then why in the world would Jesus subject himself to the humiliation, and torture of crucifiction, if it was meaningless as to wherther or not a person could be saved?

 

Nobody should be confused. All they need to do is worry about what path is right for them, not what path is right for others. Spirituality should never be about having a dick measuring contest with others on who got it right, it is supposed to be about becoming a better person that can be of service to God and to the world he has created. At least that is what I think. There may not be any scriptural verse to support this, but that is okay as I had already turned my back on the Catholic church. I just try to emulate the actions of what I deem are good religious people.

You are saying it yourself "good religious people" can be wrong.

Jesus constantly corrected, the "religious" leaders of his time for straying from the truth of the scriptures, into something that was their own creation rather than Gods. And again most of the ideas you mentioned above are not found in the Bible, but rather are the traditions of men. As for emulating the actions of who you deem are good people, have you not considered that those you disagree with are doing the same thing, only they are following the wrong people?

 

 

Then it is their fault. They rejected the path that was right for them and tried to meddle on what path others should take.

I am not talking about the meddlers, I am talking about the lost. The lost who are desperately seeking truth ,and cannot find it, because they continually travel in circles following dead ends that sound good, but in reality have no worth whatsoever. Think multi level marketing schemes ,and tiny classified ads. Even those who decieve, are in many cases themselves decieved.

 

The problem with your assertion is that spirituality is quite abstract and you are comparing it with something that is simply different. There are other analogies that would support my assertion, for instance, writing. Not all have the same hand writing style, but despite the difference, the outcome is the same: You are able to write something.

But unless the writing is legible to others, or to even yourself, and only if it is in a language they understand it is incomprehensible.

What value is it other than scribble if not everyone can read it.

If everyone changed the alphabet, and or words in the language, then what will be accomplished other than confusion?

 

Just because you are educated does not mean that you are going to be interested in reading the bible.

 

Let me refresh this because my question is still being unanwsered.

 

More people are educated, if Jesus Christ aims to make an impact, he would have to support his statements with concrete logic and reasoning.

 

What has he said that is not supportable? Again you are changing the question, I want to know how humanity as a whole has progressed?

 

As for not being interested in reading the bible, why do they complain and struggle against it, and decry it, if they don't even bother to look at it? I assume you are trying to state we as a people, are somehow more "evolved" and that the Bible, is outdated, and irrelevant to us today, and I am asking 1, how have we progressed, other than our toys, and 2 How do you know it is irrelevant, if you don't even know what it says?

 

What more do you want? Now we have the luxury to question and reject unreasonable dogma which in the past is subjected to extermination.

Isn't that what jesus did when he came the 1st time, was come in and point out how the leaders were following their own doctrines and traditions, rather than what was clearly stated in the scriptures? The option to question, and object has always been there. now whether or not our questions and objections are in fact valid is different. But that is nothing new.

 

I am not only talking about America. I am also talking about Europe and majority if not all of Asia. I am not quite sure about Africa and South America.

I added this as an example of education not being as prevalent as many believe. their is a large portion of the world that simply does not have the proper infrastructure for decent education.

 

Christianity just like any religion offers anyone a chance for salvation. It is not the only path. I think that anybody who believes otherwise is delusional and committing a sin, particularly speaking for God.

So you basically disagree with Jesus calling himself the Way ,the Truth, and the Life. and that he was God in the flesh.

 

Actually I take back what I said. Can you provide me the names of those translators who were killed? I do not have a powerful grasp of history but I believe the Church discourages people actually interpreting the bible themselves, therefore it stands to reason that they do not really like to translate the Bible into any mainstream language.

William Tyndale, stands out in particular, but if you look at history their are thousands, of unnamed ones who carried and preserved the text even under great persecution, even to the point of death. As for the church discouraging translation yes you are correct the Catholic church did discourage, and oppress it. Google your questions, but compare a few pages, and look for those that back up their allegations and dont use, "I've heard" and other uncertain language.

 

How does this prove that in many interpretation and translation of the bible, authorities actually allowed anything they do not agree with?

Do you not think they would have stamped it out, if it went contradictory to them? This is part of the reason the catholics tried to prevent translation, so that the common man had to come to them to get the scriptures, and then only those that they provided. Yet in reading the text YOURSELF their are many condeming verses of those in power.

 

I find it hard to believe that the Chruch that was so eager to burn suspected heretics would be okay with something like this. And do you have concrete evidences to back your claim up?

Thats my point the churches weren't ok, hence the persecution and martyrdom of many of the people who tried to share the word with the common man. as for proof, I will look up some verses today and try to post them later, but their are many in the scripture, that tend to subvert those in power, IF they are not in line with the scripture.

 

I view scriptures as a way God manifesting himself to people back then, not as infallible truth, I do not have much interest in it with the exception of verses, people use to argue their points.

i used to view them as morality codes, and rules , until I discovered, by reading them myself that their is far more to it.

 

Having different paths that lead to him is not the same as God obeying humans, I do not understand what you are trying to say.

I was attempting to demonstrate how a verse that on the surface, might appear to be written to opress women, wasn't nessesarily so, and then transfering it to children, and their central importance in the family. they are the most cherished members, but have the least authority. As people we are all as children to God, as their is no way for us to reach a complete maturity in our finite lives. If you got something else out of it please elaborate.

[Bogun]

oh god, not another admiral thrawn

[blind_otter]

I believe the bible is the literal word of God.

but as to the rest of your statement, has that not what I've been saying, that they don't line up with the scriptures, and that is extremely fishy to say the least.

 

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths. --Proverbs 3: 5-6

 

I feel that God has directed my path. That is all that should matter. You are committing idolotry because you put too much faith in other people's interpretations.

 

You are like Judas. You think too much with your head, and do not open your eyes and your mind.

[bluetuesday]

I believe the bible is the literal word of God.

 

but do you believe it's the complete and infallible word of god? do you actually believe that a collection of writings thousands of years old could be ALL the creator of the universe would EVER have to say to his children? or can you accept the possibility that the teachings which were given then were a reflection of the level of understanding of the students then?

 

(sorry for the delay in responding - i don't subscribe to threads and i've not checked in for days)

 

It is like the website that the original poster alluded to, they charge a fee for you to become like they are, when did Jesus, ever need anything from us?

 

they charge a fee? do you mean your internet subscription? the material on the website is free and there is nothing to join. it's not a group. if you mean buying books - these are optional. and the bible talks explicitly about the principle of tithing, of giving something back that you can multiply your talents - so having to pay a little is biblical, which you must be in favour of because you agree with what the bible says. your bible also carries a pricetag my friend. they don't let you walk out of shops with them.

 

The Bible clearly states that Satan is actively trying to steer mankind away from God. And the point I am trying to make, is have you ever considered, that the other so called "paths" are merely distraction from the one true path.

 

can we play a game, chris? imagine you are satan. it's okay, you can go back to being a christian at the end of the game. i'm not trying to trick you.

 

imagine you are satan, rebelling against god, and looking for a way to bring mankind down with you. what would you do?

 

i mean, there's a whole world out there, the tools you could employ for tricking the population are almost limitless.

 

now, as satan, you know the opposite of love is fear. it's FEAR that causes men to hate each other. so all you really need to do, as satan, is stir up fear.

 

would you be obvious about it, so people could point and say 'look, there's satan, at it again with the big fear stick' or would you be clever and know it's enough to merely twist the truth a fraction, so it still seems like the truth, in order to put the fear of god into people and blind people to what they're really doing?

 

would satan realise that scaring people into thinking that their way is the only way, is pretty effective? would satan realise that making people cling to their religions - and therefore instilling the idea that everyone who didn't follow that religion is on the wrong path - be a good way to keep them rooted in fear? not to mention, giving them a good dose of spiritual pride too.

 

and if satan got people so scared they were unwilling to have their religious views challenged, do you think he'd know he could close their minds completely?

 

i imagine he would. and for good measure, i imagine he'd throw in a line about anyone who challenges any beliefs a certain person happens to hold, being 'from the devil'.

 

so a nice little cycle of fear and mistrust and clinging to an outer organisation is set up, with a good dollop of fear on the side that anyone who questions these beliefs must be in satan's pocket.

 

because as satan, you should know that if people truly were unafraid, they wouldn't need to cling so tight. they would be open to the possibility that their way wasn't the only way. they would be content to seek for the truth, even if they hadn't found it yet.

 

so maybe you could trick them into forgetting that a closed mind is a sign of fear, and make them blind to the fact that fear is never of god. maybe they'd be so busy thinking they're right that they'd forget that the very act of thinking they're right is an act of pride and fear.

 

okay, chris. be a christian again. and now tell me why it is that people always look for the devil in other people, in other organisations, in other religions, and not in their own? i speak as a christian, but i also believe that anyone who thinks god can be contained in a book, however inspired it might be, has fallen foul of the commandment not to worship a graven image of god, and is therefore, barking up the wrong spiritual tree.

 

sadly, i think most fundamentalists are beyond this teaching. i wish that wasn't the case, i wish something i could say would open your heart. i dare you to be the one who hears how craftily the devil has made good people cling to the wrong things, and understand that god is love, and in him is no darkness. that means no division, no comparison, no fear.

 

we are all on our own path, guided by the voice of god within us. don't fall for the devil's cunning, telling you you're on the right path. lucifer fell because of pride. he thought he knew better. it's a very subtle distinction. i beg you, try to learn that lesson.

[Vega]

what if everything you believed was wrong?

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

if your current religious beliefs were incorrect or incomplete, would you want to know?

 

Yes and no. I'm too skeptical to believe anyone 'new'. If God IS God then He gave His instructions and its up to us to believe and follow the laws that God provided, including our own interpretations and our own acceptance of those laws and questioning them also.

 

Would you want to know the day and manner of your death? We all know already that someday we each will die. I don't want to know the when and how. I have some say-so now, but if I knew the details I couldn't prevent it because when its my time, its my time. Same with beliefs. I'm open to new ideas and opinions and interpretations and my beliefs may alter from time to time, but to be told that what I believe is wrong? Well, I've heard that already from many who believe differently than I do. Everyone's beliefs are incomplete anyway because no one can know everything --although there are some people who *think* they do know everything.

[bluetuesday]

Would you want to know the day and manner of your death? We all know already that someday we each will die. I don't want to know the when and how. I have some say-so now, but if I knew the details I couldn't prevent it because when its my time, its my time.

 

i don't think i'd mind knowing when/how i was going to die. as you say, we all have to go through it, why not be as prepared as possible? some people DO know, after all. people who are executed, for example. or people who commit suicide.

 

Same with beliefs. I'm open to new ideas and opinions and interpretations and my beliefs may alter from time to time, but to be told that what I believe is wrong? Well, I've heard that already from many who believe differently than I do. Everyone's beliefs are incomplete anyway because no one can know everything --although there are some people who *think* they do know everything.

 

i think it's different with beliefs, because what i think you're presupposing (if i've read it right) is that there isn't an ultimate truth and that consequently one belief is as valid (and therefore as right) as the next.

 

in human terms, that is somewhat true. we all have equal rights to hold opinions. but if my belief happens to be that jewish people should be killed, does it remain equally valid? or is it only 'nice' beliefs that are valid?

 

so in god terms, i don't believe all belief is equally valid. i believe there is a higher truth which nevertheless, we cannot grasp fully as humans. but to say that because we cannot grasp all of it we shouldn't try to grasp any of it is a wasted opportunity for growth, in my opinion.

 

the beliefs of people who are trying to grasp the truth will always be wrong, or at least incomplete, but there are degrees of wrong.

 

consider this. is one of these statements more wrong than the other?

 

the capital of australia is sydney.

 

the capital of australia is cheese.

[Chris777]

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths. --Proverbs 3: 5-6

I don't understand how you quote scripture in one statement, then say it doesn't matter in the next?

I feel that God has directed my path. That is all that should matter. You are committing idolotry because you put too much faith in other people's interpretations.

How have I commited idolatry, by believing the Bible? Jesus constantly quotes from the OT ,

and as for other peoples interpretations, Their is a reason I encourage Everyone to read it for themselves.

You are like Judas. You think too much with your head, and do not open your eyes and your mind.

Satan used the same sort of arguement on Eve in the Garden. I am stating to read it yourself, not attacking anyone.

[Chris777]

but do you believe it's the complete and infallible word of god? do you actually believe that a collection of writings thousands of years old could be ALL the creator of the universe would EVER have to say to his children? or can you accept the possibility that the teachings which were given then were a reflection of the level of understanding of the students then?

I used to think that way when I bought into the "evolutionary/reincarnation" mind set. But upon reading the Bible myself, I now see how we have not "progressed" as many would like to believe, and that our level of understanding is no more or less than that of those that have been before us. Remember it is arrogan't presumption, that prevented the pharacees, and sagguces from recognizing their savior standing in front of them. If you read the text you will notice Jesus constantly reminding them that they are not in fact followng the scriptures, and are in fact following their own traditions. Check it out if you dont believe me. look for the following quotes:

"It is written"

"Have ye not read"

those 2 and or variations are used By Jesus frequently.

Not to mention all his direct quotes from the old testament.

 

As for us "being ready for new teachings" The bible is more than sufficent for our needs. And as I have stated earlier, how have we progressed any from those that have lived before us, other than technology?

 

they charge a fee? do you mean your internet subscription? the material on the website is free and there is nothing to join. it's not a group. if you mean buying books - these are optional. and the bible talks explicitly about the principle of tithing, of giving something back that you can multiply your talents - so having to pay a little is biblical,

Since his teachings are more in line with new age thought, and doctrines, I wouldnt exactly call his selling of books "tithing" Tithing is a tenth of the first fruits of our labor. Equating his site to it is like equating the so called "love gifts, and offerings" that so many televangelist broadcast whis is also not biblical. I would assume from your attitude that you would also deem those books and practices as ok?

which you must be in favour of because you agree with what the bible says. your bible also carries a pricetag my friend. they don't let you walk out of shops with them.

The bible speaks of tithing, selling of property was frowned upon, look at where he overturned the tables of the money changers, for profiteering of the souls of others. A tithe is something completely different.

As for charging for a bible, I agree their are many who blatantly profiteer from it, needing a new version, everytime someone wants to come up with a new slang term. However, A King James translation,(which no longer has a copyright, and can be printed by anyone) can be had for a buck now, along with the Gideons, and many other organizations providing them absolutely free. I also am not aware of any churches, that would refuse you a copy, if you asked(or even borrowed)

 

imagine you are satan, rebelling against god, and looking for a way to bring mankind down with you. what would you do?

i mean, there's a whole world out there, the tools you could employ for tricking the population are almost limitless.

now, as satan, you know the opposite of love is fear. it's FEAR that causes men to hate each other. so all you really need to do, as satan, is stir up fear.

would you be obvious about it, so people could point and say 'look, there's satan, at it again with the big fear stick' or would you be clever and know it's enough to merely twist the truth a fraction, so it still seems like the truth, in order to put the fear of god into people and blind people to what they're really doing?

You made many examples of my own point for me in your discourse thats why i find it strange that you assume that I am coming from the point of view of someone who was indoctrinated, with what the Bible says, rather than someone who has explored it for myself. You summed up part of my point by demonstrating that the teachings can and are subverted, however, you limit satans attack to that of fear based, rather than the miriad of directions he is coming from. It is effective as a simple example, yet it Lacks understanding. You paint a picture of God, as incomplete He is the God of both the Old testament as well as the New. We are told to FEAR GOD repeatedly in both the old and new testaments, it is not without reason, and it cannot be divorced from him. aside from all the other quotes about fearing God in the NT look at one from Jesus himself.

Matt.10 [28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I understand your confusion, I struggled with fearing God myself. All I can tell you is to pray to God that he will show you why it is true

 

would satan realise that scaring people into thinking that their way is the only way, is pretty effective?

one of many deceptions

would satan realise that making people cling to their religions - and therefore instilling the idea that everyone who didn't follow that religion is on the wrong path - be a good way to keep them rooted in fear?

You ask me to be open minded now I ask you to do the same, do you really think that every belief has validity? Sure your arguement is persuasive, but do you not suppose your point could possibly be misplaced?

not to mention, giving them a good dose of spiritual pride too.

Show me where the bible calls pride a good thing?

I realize most of the replies have been against people alleging to be christians, who in their behavior, do not match up with what the bible says, but I would also like to point out they aren't nessesarily holding the monopoly on prideful views and behaviors. and therefore line up more with the possibility of being wolves amongst the sheep, and in line with a satanic straying from the truth.

and if satan got people so scared they were unwilling to have their religious views challenged, do you think he'd know he could close their minds completely?

i imagine he would. and for good measure, i imagine he'd throw in a line about anyone who challenges any beliefs a certain person happens to hold, being 'from the devil'.

so a nice little cycle of fear and mistrust and clinging to an outer organisation is set up, with a good dollop of fear on the side that anyone who questions these beliefs must be in satan's pocket.

because as satan, you should know that if people truly were unafraid, they wouldn't need to cling so tight. they would be open to the possibility that their way wasn't the only way. they would be content to seek for the truth, even if they hadn't found it yet.

 

so maybe you could trick them into forgetting that a closed mind is a sign of fear, and make them blind to the fact that fear is never of god. maybe they'd be so busy thinking they're right that they'd forget that the very act of thinking they're right is an act of pride and fear.

this entire perspective lines up with the exact same tactic he employed in the garden to decieve Eve into tasting the fruit

Gen.3

[1] Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

[2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

[4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

[5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

[6] And when the woman saw that the

tree was good for food, (sustinance)

and that it was pleasant to the eyes, (beauty)

and a tree to be desired to make one wise, (wisdom)

she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

[7] And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

 

He tempted her with knowledge, and that she shouldnt fear what God had said to her about the tree.

 

now tell me why it is that people always look for the devil in other people, in other organisations, in other religions, and not in their own?

The Bible warns against this constantly, it even tells us we as christians shall be judged more harshly than non believers, something you can read for yourself, if you so choose

i speak as a christian,

So are you aligning yourself with those you are complaining about?

I don't understand? When I first started to believe ,I wanted to distance myself from those who claimed to be christians, but then I read thaT I shouldnt be ashamed of being a Christian. I also learned to Test all things to see if they line up with the Bible, and found that many of the alleged "christians," Did not have the same kind of fruit, that they should have had if they were in fact from the same Vine as Christ.

but i also believe that anyone who thinks god can be contained in a book, however inspired it might be, has fallen foul of the commandment not to worship a graven image of god, and is therefore, barking up the wrong spiritual tree.

The bible says clearly that the things Jesus did could fill so many volumes that the world could not contain them. (John 21:25)

and it also states it is sufficent 2Tim.3

2Tim.3

[1] This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

[2] For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

[3] Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

[4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

[5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

[6] For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

[7] Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[8] Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

[9] But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

[10] But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

[11] Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

[12] Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

[13] But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

[14] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

sadly, i think most fundamentalists are beyond this teaching. i wish that wasn't the case, i wish something i could say would open your heart. i dare you to be the one who hears how craftily the devil has made good people cling to the wrong things, and understand that god is love, and in him is no darkness. that means no division, no comparison, no fear.

I agree their is no fear in God, but that still doesnt mean we should not fear him,( seek and ye shall find)

Pro 1:[7] The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

we are all on our own path, guided by the voice of god within us.

you might want to re examine your statement . Do you really think everyone is guided by the voice of God?

I had something guiding me , until I realized it didn't match up with what I was reading, and the nit departed

don't fall for the devil's cunning, telling you you're on the right path. lucifer fell because of pride. he thought he knew better. it's a very subtle distinction. i beg you, try to learn that lesson.

I ask myself that every day, what about yourself?

 

 

I find it odd that they make the allegations that the bible is corrupted, yet they never explicity point out where, and then they turn around and quote from it as long as it suits their need and has the appearance of backing up their position.

it is like their attack of Christians, on one hand this guy says if we reject his teachings he will deny us to his father in heaven, and then he turns around and aludes that he has no father in heaven, and that God is a "higher power" sort of thing, if this guy were really Jesus, he would not refer to his father as "something that people might call God"

 

I will pray that you get discernment on these matters, and that you will be led to the truth.

[Guest]

that you can trust.