Hell: Eternal Torment Or Annihilation?

[flavius]

Are you serious, Admiral? If burning up to the point of anhilation is nothing serious, then I suppose that creation and life everlasting is nothing special. Have you not considered that? That kind of thinking can only result from knowing the answer before you know the question.

 

I must confess that I was quite taken with the arguments of HotCaliChick (Why Did Jesus Die For Our Sins) and the other dude (a science guy from Nevada) a while back in a thread we both participated in. (You did very nicely in that thread Admiral.)

 

Doubters & unbelievers usually ask way better questions, and we usually respond with Insider Answers, the kind that let us (who are disposed to faith) put the question to bed, but which are really no answer at all for the doubter. And of course they think we are silly -- because we are!

 

We evangelicals are always answering the question "Is Christianity right?", when usually the postmodern doubter is questioning "Is God GOOD?" It is a very different question, and just as valid.

 

Cali's challenge was like: "why is it just for God to create a man who did not ask to be created, create him flawed, stick him on Earth with Satan for a time of inevitable temptation, and then inflict upon him infinite torture for committing a finite offense? Then, how does it become MORE just to punish an innocent man for the offense (whether the innocent agrees to it or not seems irrelevant) and then pardon someone who is truly and egregiously GUILTY? (like Hitler) ??" [that's my summary of her argument]

 

If that question doesn't cause us to reach beyond our Insider Answers and Systematic Theology then we are just not thinking at all, just hiding. We too often think we can "get God off the hook" by arguing from the Bible. In fact, it is the Bible that must be justified by the character of God, and it must be interpreted according to His character as revealed in Christ.

 

Cali called us out on the fact that the character of our Dallas-Seminary-Systematic-Theology falls far short of the character of God as revealed in Christ Jesus. And doggone it, she was right. Our "answers" might give us comfort, but the truth is that her question makes me squirm. More accurately, her question has sent me back for a thorough review of some old assumptions, subjecting them to the scrutiny of the love and grace I have found in the arms of God. The God I know is not just Right, he is also Good, also according to His Word. And my theology must conform to that inscrutable Truth. That is not error, but hard-bought humility.

 

So thanks, Cali, if you're still out there. You'll make a better Christian of me. And no, I do not mean that sarcastically.

[flavius]

That Jesus was the true Christ of God was not at all clear to the "evil Jews who had only to read their own Bibles" to recognize Him as such.

 

You speak as one who has benefit of the complete New Testament apostolic teaching.

 

Remember how Jesus appeared to the disciples after his resurrection and explained how all the scriptures from Moses thru the prophets spoke of Him? Well it was so obvious, why did he have to explain it all? in fact, it was so obscure (deliberately so--it is God's word after all) that he only explained it AFTER his resurrection from the dead validated him as the unassailable Lord of Heaven, Earth, Life and Death.

 

Were the jews WRONG to expect a military/political king and conqueror? That IS what was promised in the Old Testanent. Were they WRONG to expect God's promises to fulfilled first in land and dominion and ascendancy and liberation from pagan rule? That IS what was promised in the Old Testament, beginning with the covenant with Abraham right throught the messianic prophecies of Isaiah and Ezekiel. Were they so WRONG to be shaken when Jesus parade into Jerusalem and instead of mounting the temple hill at sundown to gather his forces, he stopped at the edge of town, wept over the city, and pronounced its doom?

 

No, the Jews also knew the answers before they knew the question. They too knew what 2+2 equals, but their dogmatic certitude caused them to reject the Truth of God when in smacked them in the face. They were too samrt and sophisticated in their knowledge of arithmetic to fall for that Jesus nonsense. That is how it comes to pass that God uses the foolish things of this world to confound the wisisdom of the wise.

 

Christ came in the fullness of time and put an amazing, perverse twist on all the expectations of the Jews. This is why the gate is narrow that leads to eternal life. And that is why we must enter the Kingdom as little children, not as God's staff attorneys.

 

Grace & Peace, dudes!

[flavius]

Dang it, now I'm late for CHURCH!!

[Tony T]

Existential philosopher Jean Paul Sartre wrote: "Hell is other people." I give this a lot of thought.

 

Why would God have created a hell when he had one right here on earth? It's not even rational that a loving God would create an earth, stock it with fallible humans, and then torture them eternally if they made some mistakes.

 

God asks us to forgive. I'm sure God forgives.

 

On the other hand, why would there be a heaven? No reason for it. We'd get tired of it. Hell is most likely looking back and realizing we didn't fully live our lives while we had the chance.

 

This is it folks. This is as good as it gets!

[Fun2BMe]

Existential philosopher Jean Paul Sartre wrote: "Hell is other people." I give this a lot of thought.

 

Why would God have created a hell when he had one right here on earth? It's not even rational that a loving God would create an earth, stock it with fallible humans, and then torture them eternally if they made some mistakes.

 

God asks us to forgive. I'm sure God forgives.

 

On the other hand, why would there be a heaven? No reason for it. We'd get tired of it. Hell is most likely looking back and realizing we didn't fully live our lives while we had the chance.

 

This is it folks. This is as good as it gets!

Those have been my thoughts exactly Tony. Once we turn to dust, the "hell on earth" looks like heaven. This is as good as it gets. Make the best of each day. Don't put off having fun thinking it is there in the afterlife if you sacrifice not to have it now.

[flavius]

Tony T, I hear you. Your question (well, your conclusion -- "question" is what we Christians call any contrary conclusions:o ) makes perfect sense given the distorted view of the Kingdom of God that we Christians have embraced and propagated for generations.

 

When you're done reading Sartre, try Brian McLaren's small but weighty book The Secret Message of Jesus. (The title drips with good natured irony.)

 

I 'd bet you'd actually enjoy it, and it is probably the least sectarian summation of just who the heck Jesus was and just what the heck he actually taught. His perspective is First Century Jewish, a la Jesus himself. It's wonderfully "un-spun" and I'd recommend it to any thinker.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Are you serious, Admiral? If burning up to the point of anhilation is nothing serious, then I suppose that creation and life everlasting is nothing special. Have you not considered that? That kind of thinking can only result from knowing the answer before you know the question.

 

Annihilation sounds like a favour compared to eternal torment and punishment. Imagine the worst horror movie ever made and experiencing that for eternity, with fire and brimstone - that's what hell is.

 

So, in contrast with the concept of hell that I know, annihilation sounds like amnestry from punishment and grace. But you are right - when God creates something, it's made to stay forever - so the soul can not be anhiliated, but it certainly can be destroyed and experience torment.

 

I must confess that I was quite taken with the arguments of HotCaliChick (Why Did Jesus Die For Our Sins) and the other dude (a science guy from Nevada) a while back in a thread we both participated in. (You did very nicely in that thread Admiral.)

 

Doubters & unbelievers usually ask way better questions, and we usually respond with Insider Answers, the kind that let us (who are disposed to faith) put the question to bed, but which are really no answer at all for the doubter. And of course they think we are silly -- because we are!

 

We evangelicals are always answering the question "Is Christianity right?", when usually the postmodern doubter is questioning "Is God GOOD?" It is a very different question, and just as valid.

 

Cali's challenge was like: "why is it just for God to create a man who did not ask to be created, create him flawed, stick him on Earth with Satan for a time of inevitable temptation, and then inflict upon him infinite torture for committing a finite offense? Then, how does it become MORE just to punish an innocent man for the offense (whether the innocent agrees to it or not seems irrelevant) and then pardon someone who is truly and egregiously GUILTY? (like Hitler) ??" [that's my summary of her argument]

 

Hitler went to hell. He committed suicide after murding 6 million Jews, Christians, and causing untold misery for many others.

 

What innoscent people do not get punished for something they did not do. The Bible does not teach that anywhere.

 

God did not create anything flawed. Adam was perfect, he was created to live forever. However he had choice.

 

The real issue is not really that, but it's the concept that do people currently every where in this world, have a simple choice that could save their souls eternally, in particular those who have never heard of the Gospel, or those who are unable to receive Jesus due to heavy spiritual bondage. Those are the real questions because it's not nice knowing that there is some 'run-away spiritual system that nobody is in control over where people can potentially fall through the cracks and go to hell - other than people praying and sharing the Gospel to the greatest extent possible.

 

If that question doesn't cause us to reach beyond our Insider Answers and Systematic Theology then we are just not thinking at all, just hiding. We too often think we can "get God off the hook" by arguing from the Bible. In fact, it is the Bible that must be justified by the character of God, and it must be interpreted according to His character as revealed in Christ.

 

A 'run-away spiritual system where people could fall through the cracks if they haven't heard the Gospel, or are unable to receive Christ due to spiritual bondage' is something that seems to be somewhat what my theology seems to see this world as. But, God can not create anything that would turn into a pandora's box and go out of His own control due to self-limiting laws - or can He? Is that theologically tenable or even possible?

 

In a sence, for fairness, if going to heaven is contingent on receiving Christ, than everyone should have an opportunity to receive Christ. What troubles me is the administration of this is left to the efforts and prayers of humans, and not guaranteed by God. That means, if Christians do not do their utmost best effort to pray and reach lost souls, then people may fall through the cracks. But it would seem that God is gambling with human souls by having humans share the Gospel instead of angels, or making it in a way that everyone simulataniously understand it and can receive Jesus. There would be a guarantee that EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING, that is born, can receive Christ if they wanted to, so nobody can go to hell on ignorance of the Gospel.

 

The love of God is certainly underestimated in this thread perhaps.

 

Cali called us out on the fact that the character of our Dallas-Seminary-Systematic-Theology falls far short of the character of God as revealed in Christ Jesus. And doggone it, she was right. Our "answers" might give us comfort, but the truth is that her question makes me squirm. More accurately, her question has sent me back for a thorough review of some old assumptions, subjecting them to the scrutiny of the love and grace I have found in the arms of God. The God I know is not just Right, he is also Good, also according to His Word. And my theology must conform to that inscrutable Truth. That is not error, but hard-bought humility.

 

But can God override His own spiritual laws? He can not uncreate hell. He can not change the terms in which people can go to heaven so that just everyone can go anyway. It doesn't work that way. It's set up now that most people are going to hell, and few make it to heaven. That's just the way it is, but God is good - -- if He had His way, EVERYONE would go to heaven, but since He's unable to execute His will without the cooperation of humans, then on the contrary, most people go to hell instead.

 

The Bible says God gave power to humans, and He never relinquishes what He establishes.

 

I understand what you and Cali are saying -- but if the universe is mad, and I'm born into a mad universe, then, we have to live with it, and just make it to heaven in God's terms which is faith in His Son Jesus Christ. Ok, so we are in some sort of mad universe then, would you think so?

[Nicholas]

The real issue is not really that, but it's the concept that do people currently every where in this world, have a simple choice that could save their souls eternally, in particular those who have never heard of the Gospel, or those who are unable to receive Jesus due to heavy spiritual bondage.

 

What if you just find Christians and Christianity obnoxious? I'm not being facetious. Whether you know it or not, that's a huge reason why many people don't accept Jesus into their hearts.

 

It's not a simple choice. It's a complex choice. It involves (ideally) scholarship and soul-searching as well as the suspension of logic and, often, human nature. It's even harder if you weren't raised in that tradition, so you're coming at stories which are geared towards children with adult minds. Then again, it's pretty hard if you WERE raised in that tradition to be dilligent enough to have the stories mature with you, instead of you just growing out of them as you find worldly pleasures more rewarding than church and stuff.

 

In a sence, for fairness, if going to heaven is contingent on receiving Christ, than everyone should have an opportunity to receive Christ. What troubles me is the administration of this is left to the efforts and prayers of humans, and not guaranteed by God. That means, if Christians do not do their utmost best effort to pray and reach lost souls, then people may fall through the cracks.

 

The tragic reality is that Christians are often self-serving in their witnessing, and end up turning people away from Christ before they can see that it's a pretty good deal. That, mixed with intense sectarianism and division over issues that are political and not religious, is more than enough to deprive people of a fair chance at recieving Christ, to a point where condemning them to Hell is pretty harsh, even for God.

 

The love of God is certainly underestimated in this thread perhaps.

 

I think the love of God is grossly underestimated by any person who entertains Hell as a serious notion and not as the religious equivalent of recieving coal in your stocking.

 

But can God override His own spiritual laws? He can not uncreate hell.

 

When did God create Hell? It's certainly not in the Creation stories. One could say "God created everything," but I'd ask you to at least entertain the notion that Hell is imaginary or metaphorical. Because God did not create everything. He only created things that exist--for example, God did not create unicorns, so it is incorrect to say God created everything.

 

That said, of course God can override his own laws. He can do whatever. That's part of the deal. "Nothing is impossible with God."

 

He can not change the terms in which people can go to heaven so that just everyone can go anyway. It doesn't work that way. It's set up now that most people are going to hell, and few make it to heaven. That's just the way it is

 

I resent it when people try to give God a character, personality, or some kind of business ethic. If you believe in the free and wild notion of a God, you have to believe that his power to do things, undo things, and everything in between is not only limitless but also beyond your comprehension entirely.

 

Your scenario in which God is powerless to save the souls of "ignorant" people goes against everything it means to be God. In this case, he is not a divine being at all. He's more of a humanity fan sitting on a couch in heaven earnestly rooting for us to do the right thing. Your belief in the way things "work" up there begs the question--what canGod do?

 

Am I supposed to believe God can flood the entire world at will, but he can't extend a little divine mercy to people otherwise Hellbound? The only reason anyone would hold onto a belief like that is because they consider themselves elect enough to enter Heaven, and would like it if other people conformed to their standards of election.

 

A mad universe indeed.

[flavius]

Nicholas, who ARE you? What a fascinating serving of thoughts...

[flavius]

The issues you raised are a veritable catalog of why people reject Jesus Christ. And to me, I must ask: are these actually things that Jesus of Nazareth expounded? Or are they beads of scriptural fragments that men have strung together, then hung a cross front and center?

 

I think my people have been stringing the beads all wrong. I see no harmony between the Jesus in the Bible and the Mad-Hatter-God suggested by some theologies. My people are no less out of whack than the 14th century holy roman empire.

 

Folks, we must be able to distinguish between the Word of God and doctrines of men. The Bible simply is not a textbook, or a handbook, or a reference book, or a user's guide, or an instruction manual.

 

"Doctrine" is what we extract from the scripture in order to pass it along easily and reliably to next-generations of believers. We extract things of importance from the Bible, then organize them into a reference guide to divine thruth. But doctrine is not The Word. And it is ALWAYS to some extent WRONG. As we paint on layer after layer, the image of God is obscured, and we become mere pagans bowing down before piles of paper -- constructs and concepts and diagrams and 4 spiritual laws, then taking up swords to defend them. Not me, no more, I quit, I repent.

 

Doctrine cannot be the lens though which we behold God, lest we distort his image and disgrace his name. Does not Christ live in us by his Spirit? It is NOT God's Universe that is a pandora's box, flying to pieces around the feet of a Mad-Hatter of a God. It is just a system of doctrine and theology that is crashing all about us. But don't worry, it is all the works of Man anyway, just a gaudy substitute for the living spirit of God.

 

God is unfazed. The Word of God stands forever. The Spirit still fills us, leading us into all truth. God hasn't lost an inch.

 

Nicholas is right, so often it is not Jesus people reject, it is his wife they hate (the Church, I mean.) Perhaps someone like the HotCaliChick is revolted by Christianity because deep inside they love a true image of "God as He Is": loving, just, kind, and true.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Again, people may disagree with the theological system of hell, and that there is only one way to avoid hell and go to heaven, and few people actually take advantage of that way while the majority to to hell.

 

But, the Bible does say that Jesus said - Broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, but narrow is the way that leadeth to life everlasting. And encourages everyone to be on the striaght and narrow road.

 

Now, we are just focusing on the hell concept for now, there are other important issues about knowing Christ apart from just missing hell, and yes, you are right, people who do receive Christ do so in response to his revealed love, not with a gun pointed to their head, and if they are convicted by the Spirit of sin in their life, or that they may be going to hell on account of their sins, then such conviction is done gently with hope, not with a gun pointed to anyone's head. That is not how God does things.

 

Again, God is in the direct business of saving people - because only He can save people, not humans. HOWEVER, humans are solely responsible on the other end to pray, distribute the word and preach and the Spirit works through concecrated people who have dedicated their lives to do the Lord's work. But, people are still limited - truely concecrated Christians are very far and few inbetween, (and I'll be honest, I dont consider myself to be fully concecrated, or I wouldn't be on here wasting my time but would be praying for souls instead - but that goes without saying) - if Christians have to pray for God to do something -- HOWEVER, that also means that if Christians do not pray, that God is not going to do anything in this theology.

 

So, going back to the original issues - the scenerio here is, if not enough Christians are concecreted enough to pray to effect a substantial change in the world, where everyone can receive Christ or has an opportunity to do so, then you have a scenerio where people may fall through the cracks due to ignorance of the Gospel.

 

Now, the arguements AGAINST this theology so far have been dissappointing. If you are knocking the Bible, that's easy to do here, but when you are faced with the after-life, and where you are in the next life, if you are in the wrong place, then are you going to knock it there too?

 

Seriously, if you like to make a theological statement and argue against what I'm saying, please use the Bible and bring up verses that counter my theological prspective - if you want to argue about God's character being inconsistent with this theology - go right ahead. Nicolious has not said anything that makes sence. Flavious says, my theology creates a 'Mad-Hatter' God - I'm not familiar with 'Mad-Hatter', but think it's an interesting statement nontheless.

 

God is not crazy - the fact is, He gave dominion or authority to humans over the earth - that means humans have to pray to get things done, because God can not circumvent that authority. Therefore, with this authority, God have humans the right to destroy themselves physicially and spiritually if they so choose, and God cant even do anything about it, unless people pray to Him. This theology is based on Genesis. Did an Angel stop Adam from eating the forbidden fruit? No. God does not interfare with self-destructive choices. And if someone is going to drown, if someone on the boat does not extend a life-preserver and let's them drown, who are you going to blame? Are you going to blame God, or the person that let him drown? Christians have a similar responsibility to spread the word, and if anyone falls through the cracks due to ignorance, similarly they are responsibile.

 

This 'authority' theology is in effect today where people have to pray for other people's souls and make an effort to spread the word around so that God can save people. Missionaries are risking their lives in Muslim and Communist countries to spread the word to reach the lost - and their effort is not in vain, because they realise high-stakes are involved if souls are not reached.

 

I'm sorry, I'm looking for more than people 'white-washing' or trying to bleech the reality of all of this, because that is not theologically dealing with the issue or spiritual reality, it's putting it under a rug and ignoring it. That is what Nicolus has done, and Flavius has partially done - but I like his appeal to God's character, so that's something to think about. The fact is, Jesus already paid the price and I have receive Him, and everyone else has to receive Him to in order to make it. Does everyone have that choice? I dont know, but I"m speculating they dont.

 

Therefore, as Christians, we have to be very careful, because our role is like helping people who are on their way to concecration camps, and if we dont do our part, then we are living our lives in our happy little worlds while people are going to concecration camps. Wake up. I talk to myself, and I talk to every true Christian as well.

[typical]

Imagine the worst horror movie ever made and experiencing that for eternity, with fire and brimstone - that's what hell is.

 

So, I take it you have been there, then, Admiral?

[Admiral Thrawn]

So, I take it you have been there, then, Admiral?

 

I haven't, but other have. There is no shortage of books out there that describe people's experiences in those places, where the Lord gave them a glimpse of them.

 

For example, the book "Visions Beyond the Veil" describes Chinese children who have had visions of heaven and hell and describe their story in a book.

 

 

The visions these children have are consistent with other after-life experiences of people destined to hell. Typically what happens, is that a couple of demons 'arrest' the soul, shackle you up in chains, and then drag you to some pit. T

 

 

There are other books by Rebecca Brown, "He Came to Set the Captives Free", "Prepare for War", and "Vessle of Honour", that would also show some glimpses into that, but I dont recommend reading it as it blow your mind, you may not be able to handle the information.

 

Then there is this other book I read, but I forgot the title.

 

People have had close documented encounters of the after-life, and that is submitted as extra-biblical ancedontal evidence that these places exist.

[typical]

I haven't, but other have. There is no shortage of books out there that describe people's experiences in those places, where the Lord gave them a glimpse of them.

 

So, then, how is this any different from matters of the occult as was talked about in the other thread in which I responded? If God visited (and I believe he has) people and has shown them glimpses, how is this any different from gleaming insight through tarot or other methods? How do you truly know that it is not God working through these spiritualists, tarot readers and the like? Did He personally tell you Himself? I am aware that some are frauds and out for money but others are not.

[Admiral Thrawn]

So, then, how is this any different from matters of the occult as was talked about in the other thread in which I responded? If God visited (and I believe he has) people and has shown them glimpses, how is this any different from gleaming insight through tarot or other methods?

 

The source is different. God reveals Himself through the Bible, and directly through the Spirit which is always in the context of glorifying Jesus Christ, Jesus Crucified and Resurrected from the dead. Everything revolves to the glory of Jesus.

 

In Deuteronomy, this type of activity is prohibited, so it's unscriptural first of all. Secondly, that is really using demons, which can make intelligent calculations, rather than a genuine insight into anything. These evil spirits have knowledge of people, and the information from those sources often results in more bondage. Soon your life is no longer controlled by yourself, it is controlled on the whims of spirits who are taking advantage of fear of loss, or fear that you are woried something may happen good or bad, if you do, or dont do xyz. I believe people who participate in these activities have 'accidents' that happen to them afterwards or lose interest in the things of God.

 

How do you truly know that it is not God working through these spiritualists, tarot readers and the like? Did He personally tell you Himself? I am aware that some are frauds and out for money but others are not.

 

It's in the book of Deuteronmy, and in other parts of the OT that their work is unscriptural - in fact worthy of death. I dont want this to come across the wrong way because there is no casting of stones in this dispensation - what I do want to show is that it is treated seriously in the bible, and there is no better way than to use that reference to illustrate that. I can show you the scriptural references on request, but you have to believe me on this.

 

That's all the evidence that I need - although there is lots more books or materials that I have read about it that confirm that evil spirits are involved in that venue, not God.

 

The lure of witchraft is always the 'self' -- trying to manipulate people or things to suit what desires YOU want, while in doing so, you are fulfilling the agenda of evil spirits and its all evil. The lure of tarot cards and all that stuff is also the 'self' - you want to control your life or destiny to fulfill what YOU want - again God is out of the picture, Jesus is out of the picture, and this whole thing is an elaborate distractive scheme from the only relevant truth in the universe: Jesus Christ.

[typical]

Forgive me, but I happen to believe in God and I still read Tarot for other people. For free. I have NEVER advised them to make bad decisions, or implanted voodoo devil heebie jeebie in their heads. Rather, I spoke to them of their life, of events within their life, concerning them.

 

It is so easy for you to believe that others have seen Jesus, or God, or had NDE's concerning Life and Death, which is all spiritual and to be precise, otherwordly.

Isnt it really the same to think that others were given the gift of these special abilties, and that maybe God himself gave these people that gift? Isnt it said somewhere in the bible that God sends messengers?

[Admiral Thrawn]

Forgive me, but I happen to believe in God and I still read Tarot for other people. For free. I have NEVER advised them to make bad decisions, or implanted voodoo devil heebie jeebie in their heads. Rather, I spoke to them of their life, of events within their life, concerning them.

 

I never said that you advised bad decisions, or implanted voodoo curses on them, what I did say is that when you play with fire, you, and the participants could get burned. So, even if your intentions are good, the medium in which you are executing them is evil, which will make both you and the participant victims of the evil spirits.

 

It is so easy for you to believe that others have seen Jesus, or God, or had NDE's concerning Life and Death, which is all spiritual and to be precise, otherwordly.

 

Where their experiences are consistent with the Bible. I believe the Bible first and foremost.

 

Isnt it really the same to think that others were given the gift of these special abilties, and that maybe God himself gave these people that gift? Isnt it said somewhere in the bible that God sends messengers?

 

The litmus test the bible makes for a 'false prophet' or prophet that is not of God is this -- all your prophecies have to, without fail, be 100% accurate, and if you slip once, you are out. Why? Because the prophecies are merely intelligent calculations based on intelligent spiritual beings that have a high probability of being correct, but they are not from the source of an omnicient (all-knowing) God, where they would be 100% correct, as it's based on fact.

Spirits cant see the future, only God can, spirit's can only make calculations on probability of what is highly probably to occur in the future, and usually for their own ends.

 

ANYWAY -- the point of the matter is this is all a distraction in your life from what really counts, a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Are you saved? Are you sure you will go to heaven when you die? Those are the important questions. There is no shortage of distractions in this world from the truth, tarots are one of them, exceessive movie watching or sports is another, etc...

 

Is it controlling you or are you controlling it?

[typical]

The bible wasnt written by God. It was written by people at a time when religion was a touchy subject and wars were being fought over it. Therefore, the power to sway the general public was as great as the need to do it. The unsuspecting minds were moist, and ready for implantation...they were seeking guidance and if I am not mistaken, a majority were actually forced into believing in a certain religion or suffer the consequences of an untimely death.

 

These were my words taken from the other thread, but it makes better sense here...

 

In those days, (the bible days) they also had public stonings, and the "eye for an eye" philosophy, hangings and beheadings in the village square which was all done proclaiming "in gods name", and according to the bible....if one were to follow the bible to a T, shouldnt we still be practicing some of these things??

[Admiral Thrawn]

These were my words taken from the other thread, but it makes better sense here...

 

In those days, (the bible days) they also had public stonings, and the "eye for an eye" philosophy, hangings and beheadings in the village square which was all done proclaiming "in gods name", and according to the bible....if one were to follow the bible to a T, shouldnt we still be practicing some of these things??

 

That was a period of time in the Old Testament - which is a school master for spiritual truths. The public stonings were for sins - after all, sin is death.

But there was also sacrifices and atonement for sins to pardon the stonings and scapegoats.

 

Israel had two choices - being acceptable to God by good works, and instituting the law, or grace. On the mountain, they said, whatever the Lord says, they can do. They could make it on their own. But the problem with any merit based system is this, if you break any laws, your good-works are wiped out and you could be stoned.

 

Stoning is the law. The law is death. The law shows sin. Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law and become a curse for us so that we may overcome the curse of the law, and live under a new law, the law of the Spirit with grace. It's not what you do, it's what Christ has done for you. Jesus Christ died for you so now nobody has to be stoned - that's over. Jesus was already judged on the cross. There is no double jeapordy. Jesus was judged for us, so nobody needs be judged by the law by faith in Christ. There is no condemnation (of the law) to those who are in Christ Jesus.

 

This is why Jesus Christ had to die for the sins of all in that crucifiction and in the manner He died, it is because of the nature of what sin is - sin is death. When Adam at the fruit - he died. If he didn't eat the fruit, he would be alive today. We were created immortal, sin (disobediance) introduced physical mortality. Stoning illustates this in old testament times and that is how sins were dealt with - but Jesus died for our sins - it's over, the curse of the law is gone - the veil was rent in two in the temple after Jesus died, meaning no more seperation from God and man - the sin debt has been paid.

 

Good works cant save you because the minute you slip or fall short - then your gone - the law is against us, Jesus Christ is for us to help us fulfill the law in Him. Jesus was perfect, and His righteousness and perfection is simply transposed on those who believe in Him - so you cant earn your salvation further than receiving Jesus.

[typical]

Jesus Christ died for you so now nobody has to be stoned - that's over.

 

Yes, and in its place is now Death Row, which is just as bad, and pretty much the same thing. We have to uphold the law of the sin-death thing, but He already died for our sins yet we still send people to death?

 

Or is that God working through the executioner and the law? If we dont follow the law, we are sinning, but if we are following the law, we are still sinning because Jesus Christ already died for our sins, yet we are in a sense, murdering other people for commiting sins when no one has a right to take anothers life at all, for any reason.

[a4a]

Yes, and in its place is now Death Row, which is just as bad, and pretty much the same thing. We have to uphold the law of the sin-death thing, but He already died for our sins yet we still send people to death?

 

Or is that God working through the executioner and the law? If we dont follow the law, we are sinning, but if we are following the law, we are still sinning because Jesus Christ already died for our sins, yet we are in a sense, murdering other people for commiting sins when no one has a right to take anothers life at all, for any reason.

 

 

Golly gee I just had the same thought as you were posting!

This has often perplexed me.....

 

Anti abortionist that are pro death penalty for example

[Admiral Thrawn]

Yes, and in its place is now Death Row, which is just as bad, and pretty much the same thing. We have to uphold the law of the sin-death thing, but He already died for our sins yet we still send people to death?

 

On Romans 13 and Genesis - God had appointed the state to maintain law and order, even if necessary with capital punishment. In order to prevent a state of anarchy where the strong take advantage of the weak and there is no recourse that is the way societies operate.

 

Or is that God working through the executioner and the law?

 

Yes, because the state is appointed by God to maintain justice if it is a moral state. However, the Bible also says that the courts are full of iniquity, and the god of this world system is the devil. Until Jesus reigns, the moral democratic state is the lesser of two evils of total anarchy.

 

If we dont follow the law, we are sinning, but if we are following the law, we are still sinning because Jesus Christ already died for our sins, yet we are in a sense, murdering other people for commiting sins when no one has a right to take anothers life at all, for any reason.

 

The Bible is all pointing to trust Jesus - if you look to Him you are alright end of story, if you look to yourself you are in trouble.

[typical]

On Romans 13 and Genesis - God had appointed the state to maintain law and order

 

How convenient

 

Yes, because the state is appointed by God to maintain justice if it is a moral state. However, the Bible also says that the courts are full of iniquity, and the god of this world system is the devil.

 

Hrrrmmmm, conflicting evidence??? This God thing is starting to sound a little shady to me....

 

In order to prevent a state of anarchy where the strong take advantage of the weak and there is no recourse that is the way societies operate.

 

Right, so lets just slay 'em...even though we technically can keep them in prision for the rest of their natural life.

 

However, the Bible also says that the courts are full of iniquity, and the god of this world system is the devil.

 

So, therefore, we are sinning because we are listening to the devil? And so are the executioners and judges and so on......

[Admiral Thrawn]

How convenient

 

You dont see a need of a state to punish wrongdoers in society?

 

Right, so lets just slay 'em...even though we technically can keep them in prision for the rest of their natural life.

 

People should not kill other people in society, therefore, they wont have to be executed, right? That's the rationale. My country doesn't have capital punishment, but I dont down countries who have it as long as the accussed has access to quality legal representation, and there are no racial or minority prejudice issues in the system - so, a very qualified acceptance of the idea.

 

 

So, therefore, we are sinning because we are listening to the devil? And so are the executioners and judges and so on......

 

I'm saying the system itself is evil. You have no perfect utopian society anywhere in the world, and that is not going to happen until Jesus Christ reigns from Jerusalem, as prophecied in the Bible, restoring a happy and perfect utopian society, where lions live with lambs, and justice and truth prevail. Since the devil is locked up during that time, people will more likely live in harmony and peace with each other under the rulership of Jesus.

[LA-girl]

Hi!

 

I saw it was mentioned in here that the parable of the Rich man and Lasarus is a PARABL! It is not supposed to be taken literally.

 

Serious problems arise with a literal interpretation of the story elements.

Can we believe that all the saints are even now gathered in Abraham's bosom? If they are, in whose bosom does Abraham rest? And if there is really a great gulf fixed between heaven and hell, how could the rich man possibly have been heard by Abraham? Perhaps more disturbing, how could the saints enjoy the comforts of heaven while enduring the cries of the wicked being tormented?

Another dilemma that arises with a literal interpretation of this story could be called "the mystery of the empty graves." If this is taken literally, apparently neither of the two leading characters spent very long in the grave--both being whisked away rather quickly to their respective places of reward. Their bodies obviously came along, for we find the rich man lifting up his eyes, and desiring to have his tongue cooled by a drop of water from the finger of Lazarus who was resting, as we have seen, in Abraham's bosom. Enough graves have been exhumed in recent years to know that the bodies of the deceased are carried neither to heaven or hell after burial. They finally turn to dust and await the resurrection.

From these few examples, we begin to see that in this parable, Jesus was not trying to explain the physical realities of the afterlife. Instead, He was referring to the unfaithfulness of the Jews regarding their assigned responsibility. As stewards of the special message of truth, they utterly failed to share it with the Gentiles, who were eager to hear it. In fact, the entire chapter of Luke 16 is devoted to the subject of stewardship.

 

From the book: Rich Man & Lazarus