Hell: Eternal Torment Or Annihilation?

[LA-girl]

This says the Bible what will happen to the sinners at the day of judgement:

 

"'For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble and the day which is coming shall burn them up.' Says the Lord of hosts, 'That will leave them neither root nor branch….You shall trample the wicked for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet. On the day that I do this,' says the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1, 3.

 

Even the originator and promulgator of sin himself will be destroyed.

 

Speaking of the devil, the Word says:

 

"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:18, 19 KJV.

 

God's Word declares that the fire will devour the devil and bring him to ashes and that he will never be any more.

[LA-girl]

Think about this:

 

God created us in his image. He created us with a FREE WILL because he saw that it was the only way someone could love him back. He did not create robots saying : I love you God I love you God! Then it would not be love...Unfortunately man did not trust completely in God and that was how sin entered the world.

 

This is what he is now trying to repair. He wants only the people who LOVE Him and TRUST Him to enter the gates of heaven! If hell would be eternal torture as some claims, it would be FORCED WORSHIP! If we are Christians in order to escape eternal torture, and not because we love Jesus and wants to live with him forever then it would be forced worship! That is not what God wants!!!

 

This is not Gods will....God is not trying to save people from eternal torture, but from eternal death!

God created us in order to have eternal life with him like the original plan! The only way he can do this is to extinguish all that is wicked including the Devil! This is the only way for the sin not to rise up a second time!

Luckily he did sent his son Jesus Christ in order to die and take our sins on him so that we have this chance to live and reign with him forever.

 

LOOK at these verses, do they paint a picture of a God that will enjoy seing his own creatures suffer for eternity in torture?

 

Isaiah 28:21, "For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act."

 

Lamentations 3:32-33, "But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men."

 

ANSWER: NO!!! GOD IS LOVE AND GOD IS JUST! That is why he will eventually burn us up including the Devil! And then there will be no more pain, nor sorrow, nor sin ever again!

 

If God would be a sadist enjoying the screams of billions of his own children for eternity...it would mean we would love a sadist who would be worse than Hitler and worse than the Devil himself!

The Devil want us to look at God in this way, because he will see that we will not be able to love God completely if this should be true, not to mention the almost impossible task to convert someone into believing in such a sadistic creator!

 

The wicked will get punished depending on how bad they have been, yes! That probably means that those who has done most evil will burn longer than those who have done less. But eventually they will all burn up!

 

THIS IS BECAUSE GOD IS JUST!

How are we really portraying God? As a sadist or a just and loving God?

[LA-girl]

Sorry I made a mistake in my first post about the Rich man and Lazarus!

 

 

I saw it was mentioned in here the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus. REMEMBER it is a PARABEL! It is not supposed to be taken literally.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Hi!

 

I saw it was mentioned in here that the parable of the Rich man and Lasarus is a PARABL! It is not supposed to be taken literally.

 

 

 

From the book: Rich Man & Lazarus

 

LA-girl,

 

I've read through the excerpts from that book that you have quoted, the Bible does say somewhere, after Jesus died/arose, there were saints that were ressurrected from the dead.

 

My understanding theologically is this. Right now, when people die, their spirit-soul conciousness is seperated from their physical bodies, and they are allocated to heaven or to hell.

 

Abraham's Bosom was in existance before Jesus died on the cross because the righteous dead still could not make it to heaven without Jesus and also had to go to hell. But they stayed in the good side of hell, known as Paradise, or Abraham's Bosom, while the wicked dead stayed in the bad side of hell where all the fire was, and there was an abyss between both divisions so you could not cross. The righteous dead benefited from the crucifiction and ressurection of Jesus before the fact on 'credit'.

 

When a thief crucified next to Jesus said, Lord remember me, Jesus promised Him that today He will be with Him in Paradise. He said that because, when they both died, the first thing Jesus did was go to Paradise, and release the righteous dead so that they could all go to heaven as Jesus paid the price for their sins and was judged on the cross.

 

Today, when a born-again Christian dies, their spirit goes straight to heaven, and no longer to Abraham's Bosom, which is currently unoccupied by any soul, unless there are flames there too account for more people going into there or something, who knows.

 

The resurrection of the physical body is another aspect that is deal with in the book of Corinthians. There is a future day when bodies will be ressurected from the dead and the spirits will be reunited with the bodies. It may seem there are different dates for the righteous bodies and the wicked bodies. The righteous body ressurection seems like an event called the 'Rapture', where Christians are taken out of the way in glorified bodies prior to a time called 'The Great Tribulation' and introduction of the Anti-Christ, who will likely explain the dissappearance as based on the next phase of the evolution of man, where people who would keep back the progress of humanity (born-again Christians of course) are taken out of the way towards a peaceful global society - or may blame it on UFO abductions, who knows.

 

The wicked dead are resssurected at the end of the Millenium Kingdom of Jesus Christ where they are judged at the Great White Throne Judgement for all their deeds and are sentenced accordingly to the lake of fire. Prior to the lake of fire, the wicked dead's spirit-soul conciousness would be residing in hell, while their bodies have probably totally decomposed in their respective grave-sites. When they are going to the Great White Thrown, they are reunited with their bodies and are before the Judgement Seat to account for their actions on earth.

 

The Lake of Fire is currently uninhabited, and eventually Hell will be emptied of the wicked dead as well, and everybody not in the Lamb's book of life will go to some part of that Lake of Fire. The first two people who will inhabit the lake of fire - ALIVE - in the future, that is, they wont die, they will just be dumped there immediately - is the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet. This occurs after Jesus returns on the Mount of Olives to rescue the Jews from the Anti-Christ and the armies that were going to annihilate them were it not for God's intervention.

 

Afterwards, the wicked dead remain in hell for another thousand years and are destined to the Lake of Fire, after the White Throne Judgement. It would seem the punishments of 'hell' a bit unfair for people who were born later as opposed to have been born earlier, since technically, people born later spend less time in hell than those born earlier, who happen to go there. However, that's probably a moot point in itself since it's an eternity, and time loses all meaning when in such a place since there is no definite end.

[Admiral Thrawn]

This says the Bible what will happen to the sinners at the day of judgement:

 

"'For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble and the day which is coming shall burn them up.' Says the Lord of hosts, 'That will leave them neither root nor branch….You shall trample the wicked for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet. On the day that I do this,' says the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1, 3.

 

Even the originator and promulgator of sin himself will be destroyed.

 

But that doesn't mean annihilation, that could mean eternal - there is nothing to indicate a temporal sence of time.

[LA-girl]

How can wicked becoming ashes mean everlasting life in torment?

 

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

[Admiral Thrawn]

ANSWER: NO!!! GOD IS LOVE AND GOD IS JUST! That is why he will eventually burn us up including the Devil! And then there will be no more pain, nor sorrow, nor sin ever again!

 

I've heard that it is said that people are created to live eternally and can not die. People can live eternally in heaven or in hell, but there is no final death.

Rather than bring up some obscure verse out of a hat, I'm going to bring up a well quoted verse that is very obvious about this and leaves no room for ambiguity or interpretation and quote it here:

 

Revelation 20:14-15

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

 

Matthew 18:8 "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into EVERLASTING fire."

 

Mark 9:43 "And if thine hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

 

Honestly, I do not know if it could be any more clearer than this. These are well quoted obvious verses about the subject matter of hell. You'd have to twist the obvious meaning to come up with something different - but consistently throughout, Jesus' revelation of hell has always been eternal torment, and that theme is again echoed in Revelation.

 

If God would be a sadist enjoying the screams of billions of his own children for eternity...it would mean we would love a sadist who would be worse than Hitler and worse than the Devil himself!

 

That's where we have a run-away concept of hell and an abstract spiritual legal structure. God can not be a sadist on something that He has no control over, but the control is left in the hands of someone else. He could be sad over decisions and choices people make or fail to make which have eternal consequences.

 

What would make a more 'sadist' God is the idea that people could fall through the cracks and go to hell either not understanding the Gospel enough to receive Jesus Christ, or receiving adequate conviction, or never hearing the Gospel or knowing how to receive Jesus Christ into their hearts - in my humble opinion. I've never been able to resolve that conflict of thought, but I do believe, if someone is sincere, and really wants to know God, then they will have an opportunity to hear the Gospel.

 

The Devil want us to look at God in this way, because he will see that we will not be able to love God completely if this should be true, not to mention the almost impossible task to convert someone into believing in such a sadistic creator!

 

I'd be more worried about saving my own butt and people aught to be worried about saving theirs rather than go into speculation. If you were summoned to go to court, I'm sure you would be dealing with the charges rather than arguing about the legitimacy of the system.

 

The wicked will get punished depending on how bad they have been, yes! That probably means that those who has done most evil will burn longer than those who have done less. But eventually they will all burn up!

 

That's not what the Bible says, the bible talks about eternal torment.

 

THIS IS BECAUSE GOD IS JUST!

How are we really portraying God? As a sadist or a just and loving God?

 

God the Father already sent Jesus to die for the sins of everyone so there is no excuse, people simply have to trust Jesus to miss hell and it's as simple as that.

 

Anyway, I do see your point - but would still say the notion that God is sadistic with the fact an eternal hell may exist is reconciled on these following arguements:

 

1) God created hell for the devil and his angels not for humans.

2) Devil took advantage of some loophole, and duped Adam and Eve to fall, making humans sort of stuck into a legal dillema.

3) God sent Jesus to die for the sins of humanity, and thereby, within His set legal frameword - save humanity from this trap - where people who trust God can now go to heaven.

4) The choice is left to the individual to trust God or not to trust God's provision of salvation.

 

Further principles:

1) God gave power and dominion to man, including the power to destroy itself or send itself to hell. Is that sadistic, or is it necessary for some abstract free-will vs. robots concept?

2) If God's hands are tied behind His back, He could wish that everyone is saved, but be unable to do anything further than what 'legal parameters' that He is allowed based on prior universal proclamations - (ie dominion of humanity on earth (non-interfarence even if it means saving someone from destroying themselves).

3) If God didn't have 'legal-parameters' and acted on a whim, then the whole universe could be chaotic, so God would have to be faithfully restricted within how He is carrying HIs power which ensures that everything around runs orderly and smoothly. If He did things on whims, or moods, then He could uncreate us one day, change the colour of the sky, etc... in any moment's notice.

 

 

Other consideratoins:

1) People do not choose to be born - and if someone ends up going to hell, then they should not have been born because that just sucks. It's better never to have existed than to be tormented eternally. Since God knows the future and knows who will end up to be going to hell, then it follows, that God also knows who is being born will end up in hell, and by creating that soul - it's ultimately destiny could be eternal torment --- this conceivably could lead to a perverse interpretation of things.

[LA-girl]

Admiral Thrawn

LA-girl

 

 

I've heard that it is said that people are created to live eternally and can not die. People can live eternally in heaven or in hell, but there is no final death.

 

I'm sorry, but where does the BIBLE say that we can not die? "The wages of sin is death"

We were created to live eternally, but because of sin, God has to destroy (as in burn up) all sinners who has not received Jesus' gift of salvation.

 

Rather than bring up some obscure verse out of a hat

 

I'm sorry, but what do you mean by obscure? It is GODS WORD!

 

, I'm going to bring up a well quoted verse that is very obvious about this and leaves no room for ambiguity or interpretation and quote it here:

 

Revelation 20:14-15

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

 

Yes, true. THere will be a lake of fire which eventually will burn every sinner and the devil UP!

 

Matthew 18:8 "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into EVERLASTING fire."

 

The result of the fire is everlasting! They will have no chance of escaping and eventually the fire will as many verses say devours them, burn them up)

 

Mark 9:43 "And if thine hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

 

The fire will not be quenched! There will not be anything (rain, or fire-men to extinguish the fire.) God says this so that we will know that no-one will have the chance of escaping. The worm will do its job in order to ensure us that if the fire will not get rid of all the sinners/demons/devil. the worm will do it's job to make sure that all will eventually be gone.

This is to re-assure us that all sin and sinners will eventually vanish so that it can not evolve a second time!

 

Also the word eternal and forever has been highly mis-translated from the original greek Bible. Sometimes they have translated the greek word aion which means : until the end (of life), or an uncertain period of time. The fire and the worm will do its job to make sure that nothing is left of the sin and sinners!

 

That's where we have a run-away concept of hell and an abstract spiritual legal structure. God can not be a sadist on something that He has no control over, but the control is left in the hands of someone else. He could be sad over decisions and choices people make or fail to make which have eternal consequences.

 

How can God leave it in the hands of someone else when he assures us that the devil and his angels will burn up too??? Not to mention that if God would let the Devil and his demons in charge of the sinners receiving just punisment for their sins, then he would certainly not choose Gods rebellios angel: Lucifer!! God will make sure that He himself is the one in charge of the fair and just punisment and eventually He will let all DIE!!

 

What would make a more 'sadist' God is the idea that people could fall through the cracks and go to hell either not understanding the Gospel enough to receive Jesus Christ, or receiving adequate conviction, or never hearing the Gospel or knowing how to receive Jesus Christ into their hearts - in my humble opinion. I've never been able to resolve that conflict of thought, but I do believe, if someone is sincere, and really wants to know God, then they will have an opportunity to hear the Gospel.

 

Again this only strengten these facts that God will DESTROY,consume burn up every sinners including the Devil.

 

I'd be more worried about saving my own butt and people aught to be worried about saving theirs rather than go into speculation. If you were summoned to go to court, I'm sure you would be dealing with the charges rather than arguing about the legitimacy of the system.

 

I agree that we should tell people about the gift of salvation. But in order to save people they need to hear the REAL TRUTH ABOUT GODS CHARACTER! Nobody could love a sadistic God, and luckily he is not! He is mercyful enough to give people a just punisment and then let them DIE!

 

That's not what the Bible says, the bible talks about eternal torment.

I DEEPLY DEEPLY DISAGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

God the Father already sent Jesus to die for the sins of everyone so there is no excuse, people simply have to trust Jesus to miss hell and it's as simple as that.

 

What about those who never hear the gospel? God could never send those or anyone for that matter into eternal punisment!!

 

1) People do not choose to be born - and if someone ends up going to hell, then they should not have been born because that just sucks. It's better never to have existed than to be tormented eternally. Since God knows the future and knows who will end up to be going to hell, then it follows, that God also knows who is being born will end up in hell, and by creating that soul - it's ultimately destiny could be eternal torment --- this conceivably could lead to a perverse interpretation of things.

 

Nobody chooses to be born, correct.

It is a gift! Why? Because there are two roads: destruction, death or eternal life with Jesus!

 

Also Jesus tells us that FEW will make it to heaven! Again God did not create us out of love in order to send us into eternal torment for those who won't make it! It is ABSURD!

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

Even this well-quoted verse says it all: The sinners will PERISH!!! And the saved will have EVERLASTING LIFE!

 

It is only the saved who will have the gift of everlasting life, not the sinners. It doesn't say: "should not have everlasting life in torment!! IT SAYS THEY WILL PERISH!!! How much more clearer can it be???

[Admiral Thrawn]

Admiral Thrawn

LA-girl

 

 

I've heard that it is said that people are created to live eternally and can not die. People can live eternally in heaven or in hell, but there is no final death.

 

I'm sorry, but where does the BIBLE say that we can not die? "The wages of sin is death"

 

But death means seperation rather than annihilation in theological terms.

Physical death is seperation of the body and the spirit.

Spiritual death is seperation of the spirit from God - that is classified as the second death.

 

Look at the absurd logic of this. If people die, then what's the point of resurrecting them again just to kill them again, the logic is not there at all.

 

Revelation 14:10-11 "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb;

And the smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up FOR EVER AND EVER, and THEY HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT,..."

 

Here we have another clear as day glimpse - there is no ambiguity, here we have words like TORMENT, and FOR EVER AND EVER, no REST DAY AND NIGHT, perptetual torment.

 

That's another part in the bible where that is said. I believe I also made a few other references aside from this one.

 

We were created to live eternally, but because of sin, God has to destroy (as in burn up) all sinners who has not received Jesus' gift of salvation.

 

Which could mean an eternal 'burning up'.

 

Rather than bring up some obscure verse out of a hat

 

I'm sorry, but what do you mean by obscure? It is GODS WORD!

 

There are more direct verses that deal with the subject matter that have to be addressed, like the ones I brought up in Revelation or what Jesus said about hell.

 

, I'm going to bring up a well quoted verse that is very obvious about this and leaves no room for ambiguity or interpretation and quote it here:

 

Revelation 20:14-15

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

 

Yes, true. THere will be a lake of fire which eventually will burn every sinner and the devil UP!

 

Re-read the verse carefully, it says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire, which means the inhabitants of hell - are changed to a different place called 'the lake of fire'. Currently, the lake of fire is unoccupied, but hell is full of people who are currently burning. Hell and the Lake of Fire is two distinct theological locations - both involve torment and suffering of inhabitants who are there.

 

Matthew 18:8 "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into EVERLASTING fire."

 

The result of the fire is everlasting! They will have no chance of escaping and eventually the fire will as many verses say devours them, burn them up)

 

Taking this as isolated text, it could lead to an ambigious interpretation, but the other verses in Revelation clearly would show that people are suffering in that EVERLASTING fire eternally.

 

Mark 9:43 "And if thine hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

 

The fire will not be quenched! There will not be anything (rain, or fire-men to extinguish the fire.) God says this so that we will know that no-one will have the chance of escaping. The worm will do its job in order to ensure us that if the fire will not get rid of all the sinners/demons/devil. the worm will do it's job to make sure that all will eventually be gone.

 

And how do you know the 'worm' is not referring to their souls not dying?

 

That's where we have a run-away concept of hell and an abstract spiritual legal structure. God can not be a sadist on something that He has no control over, but the control is left in the hands of someone else. He could be sad over decisions and choices people make or fail to make which have eternal consequences.

 

How can God leave it in the hands of someone else when he assures us that the devil and his angels will burn up too???

 

In Genesis, God gave humanity control - free-will.

 

Not to mention that if God would let the Devil and his demons in charge of the sinners receiving just punisment for their sins, then he would certainly not choose Gods rebellios angel: Lucifer!! God will make sure that He himself is the one in charge of the fair and just punisment and eventually He will let all DIE!!

 

That's really the point of contention about hell or the lake of fire. For seemingly light types of offenses, people could burn up forever in hell.

I do not see what anyone can do bad enough that would warrant eternal punishment in hell, and I'm sure you can either, which is why you have your rationalization. However, it doesn't wash theologically, as I will show you later. Even if we dont like the information in the Bible, we have to deal with it, and try to get an honest picture based on the information at hand, rather than try to sanatise it to fit into our own notions of what is fair or just.

 

We've heard that a sin is a sin in the Bible, whether you are Hitler killing 6 million Jews, or if you see a girl/guy and are attracted to them naturally - yeah, it's called lust and you've committed adultery - and both sins are just as bad right because sin is sin in the eyes of God. So, people have a difficult time grasping hell because it seems unfair that people seem to get the same sort of punishment no matter what they are doing. But, you cant argue with God - so, you have to go by His terms to enter heaven - and the terms is quite simple, simply receive Jesus into your heart. No money has to be paid so poor people aren't excluded. Not based on works since people have different life-spans and may not have equal opportunity to fit or not fit the same amount of works, but it's based on faith. Now the only catch to this is, people have to hear something in order to believe it.

 

 

 

What would make a more 'sadist' God is the idea that people could fall through the cracks and go to hell either not understanding the Gospel enough to receive Jesus Christ, or receiving adequate conviction, or never hearing the Gospel or knowing how to receive Jesus Christ into their hearts - in my humble opinion. I've never been able to resolve that conflict of thought, but I do believe, if someone is sincere, and really wants to know God, then they will have an opportunity to hear the Gospel.

 

Again this only strengten these facts that God will DESTROY,consume burn up every sinners including the Devil.

 

How do they strengthen these facts? The Bible clearly shows hell is temporary abode for the wicked dead, who then after a White Throne Judgement are transferred eternally to a lake of fire.

 

I'd be more worried about saving my own butt and people aught to be worried about saving theirs rather than go into speculation. If you were summoned to go to court, I'm sure you would be dealing with the charges rather than arguing about the legitimacy of the system.

 

I agree that we should tell people about the gift of salvation. But in order to save people they need to hear the REAL TRUTH ABOUT GODS CHARACTER! Nobody could love a sadistic God, and luckily he is not! He is mercyful enough to give people a just punisment and then let them DIE!

 

Well, this is over-the-top anyway. It goes without saying, people who are receptive to the Gospel have a hunger and thirst for the things of God, and the love of God is manifested. I got saved by the manifested love of God, not with a 'accept Christ or burn forever in hell'. I think people respond the same way to that. However, along with the love Gospel, there is also a reality that if people postpone their decision to receive Jesus, when they have an opportunity to do so, then they are gambling with their eternal souls, those borderline people need to hear about hell and make a decision before it's too late.

 

That's not what the Bible says, the bible talks about eternal torment.

I DEEPLY DEEPLY DISAGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I quoted verses on it above, I'd like to hear your response.

 

God the Father already sent Jesus to die for the sins of everyone so there is no excuse, people simply have to trust Jesus to miss hell and it's as simple as that.

 

What about those who never hear the gospel? God could never send those or anyone for that matter into eternal punisment!!

 

Why not? If the Bible says there is only one way to get to heaven, and people do not go through that way, whether it is through neglect or ignorance, then there is no other hope. People have to hear the Gospel, be able to receive Jesus, and actually receive Jesus in order to be saved. There is no other recourse.

 

1) People do not choose to be born - and if someone ends up going to hell, then they should not have been born because that just sucks. It's better never to have existed than to be tormented eternally. Since God knows the future and knows who will end up to be going to hell, then it follows, that God also knows who is being born will end up in hell, and by creating that soul - it's ultimately destiny could be eternal torment --- this conceivably could lead to a perverse interpretation of things.

 

Nobody chooses to be born, correct.

It is a gift! Why? Because there are two roads: destruction, death or eternal life with Jesus!

 

It's a gift if you end up with eternal life with Jesus, certainly not a good thing if you are under eternal torment and constantly trying to kill yourself but not succeeding in that place because you cant die.

 

Also Jesus tells us that FEW will make it to heaven! Again God did not create us out of love in order to send us into eternal torment for those who won't make it! It is ABSURD!

 

Unless He created some laws or parameters that have taken a life of their own. Your contention is that my theology undermines the character of God, because, the eternal construct of hell is conceptually unjust. However, it's in the Bible and it's there. People's sins are the premise of going to hell.

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

Even this well-quoted verse says it all: The sinners will PERISH!!! And the saved will have EVERLASTING LIFE!

 

Perish means the second death - I've already discussed what that means.

 

It is only the saved who will have the gift of everlasting life, not the sinners. It doesn't say: "should not have everlasting life in torment!! IT SAYS THEY WILL PERISH!!! How much more clearer can it be???

 

Right, but the book of Revelation defines perishing to the 'Lake of Fire'.

 

One final submission of proof of eternal torment in the Lake of Fire, but this is going to be likely difficult for you to grasp if you do not understand Bible prophecy - but I'm going to try anyway.

 

Revelation 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceved them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone."

 

The devil is bound for a thousand years - during the reign of the Millenium Kingdom in Revelation 20:2-3.

 

Here, the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet are both cast alive into the lake of fire. After they are cast there, Jesus rules His Millenium Kingdom on earth for 1000 years. Revelation 20:4

 

Ok, so at this point, we are in the Millenium Kingdom - 1000 years are supposed to have come and gone. If what you are saying is true, then the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet would have all been burned instantly.

 

However, look what happens 1000 years later.

 

The devil is released from prison and deceives the nations once again

Revelatoin 20:7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison."

 

Look what happens after this occurs:

 

Revelatoin 20:10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, WHERE THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET ARE, AND SHALL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER."

 

That is what the Bible says - eternal torment.

 

1000 years - the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet ARE STILL ALIVE - THEY ARE STILL THERE - IT DOESN'T TAKE 1000 YEARS TO BURN SOMETHING. The devil joins them, and is then tormented along with everyone else for ever and ever, nothing just ceases to exist there.

 

This is as clear as day, whatever place this is --- IT IS ETERNAL.

[LA-girl]

Admiral Thrawn

LA-girl

But death means seperation rather than annihilation in theological terms.

Physical death is seperation of the body and the spirit.

Spiritual death is seperation of the spirit from God - that is classified as the second death.

 

The second death means that God is going to make sure that both the body AND the souls are going to eventually being DESTROYED, BURNED UP, TURN INTO ASHES!

 

Look at the absurd logic of this. If people die, then what's the point of resurrecting them again just to kill them again, the logic is not there at all.

 

The point of resurrecting them again is for every sinner to have their just punishment before they die the second death. It is the only way God can be GOOD and JUST, for everyone to pay for their evil deeds. This is to show us that he will not let a person like Hitler for instance get away without any suffering before the final, second death. God will make sure that everyone that is not saved will get their rightful punisment before they eventually DIE the second time.

 

"Who 'will render to each one according to his deeds” Romans 2:6.

Everyone will burn/suffer according to their evil works (disobeying God). The most wicked will be punished with many stripes and those who have done less evil with few stripes. Here we see that God will punish everyone differently according to their works! I am not saying that everyone will get killed by the fire immediately. They will probably burn for a different length of time depending on how bad they have been. The Devil burning longest! He will be tortured in the lake of fire as it is said in Revelation day and night for as long as it will take for him to in the end BURN UP! How will it be just and fair if Adam was thrown in hell like you mention 6000 years ago and after more than 5000 years later Hitler, one of the worst tyranns ever, comes along, then he dies and is being thrown in hell. (I assume Hitler wasn’t saved). How would it be fair for Adam to suffer in hell over 5000 years more than Hitler?

 

Revelation 14:10-11 "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb;

And the smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up FOR EVER AND EVER, and THEY HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT,..."

 

Here we have another clear as day glimpse - there is no ambiguity, here we have words like TORMENT, and FOR EVER AND EVER, no REST DAY AND NIGHT, perptetual torment.

Let me illustrate this with an example:

In the Bible, we are given an example of what hell will be like. "As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7. God has frequently taught us what future events will be like by giving an example which occurred during the old covenant. Hellfire is just one example of this. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the book of Genesis, is not just an historical story, but an example of what will be in the future as well. We are told that Sodom and Gomorrah are set forth as an example of eternal fire. The story is a familiar one; because of the great wickedness of the cities in the plain, God "rained brimstone and fire on [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Gomorrah[/FONT][FONT=Arial], from the Lord out of the heavens." Genesis 19:24. We are told that this was "eternal fire," but are [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Gomorrah[/FONT][FONT=Arial] still burning today? [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Of course not. Everyone knows that the fires of [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Gomorrah[/FONT][FONT=Arial] have gone out years ago[/FONT][FONT=Arial]. You cannot visit a site in the [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Middle East[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and have the tour guide tell you that it is the eternally burning fires of [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Gomorrah[/FONT][FONT=Arial]. We don't know exactly how long the fires burnt, but we do know that they finally went out. How then could it be eternal fire? The results were eternal. Never again have the cities of [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Gomorrah[/FONT][FONT=Arial] been rebuilt. It was an eternally consuming fire. It consumed every last object and then, when there was nothing more to burn, the fires went out. "And turning the cities of [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Gomorrah[/FONT][FONT=Arial] into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making then an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;" II Peter 2:6. Peter adds the detail that [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Gomorrah[/FONT][FONT=Arial] were turned into ashes[/FONT][FONT=Arial]. Ashes according the [FONT=Arial]Webster's New World Dictionary[/FONT] is defined as, "the substance remaining after a thing has been burned." Ashes do not burn. Ashes are what is leftover after something has already been burned. It can clearly be seen from the Bible that [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Gomorrah[/FONT][FONT=Arial] are not still burning, but that "God destroyed the cities of the plain." Genesis 19:29. Since [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Gomorrah[/FONT][FONT=Arial] are an example of eternal fire, we can know that the eternal fires of hellfire will, likewise, not continue for the billions of years of eternity.[/FONT][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Originally Posted by [FONT=Verdana]LA-girl[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]We were created to live eternally, but because of sin, God has to destroy (as in burn up) all sinners who has not received Jesus' gift of salvation.[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]

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Which could mean an eternal 'burning up'. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Why would God say BURN UP, rather then burn? Burn UP menas what it means. Why should God try to trick us in this verse into believing it means burn up, when you say it means a continual burning??[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Originally Posted by [FONT=Verdana]LA-girl[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Rather than bring up some obscure verse out of a hat

 

I'm sorry, but what do you mean by obscure? [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]It is GODS WORD![/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]

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There are more direct verses that deal with the subject matter that have to be addressed, like the ones I brought up in Revelation or what Jesus said about hell.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Do you really think that God would contradict himself. If we can believe in the New testament, we have to believe in the Old too. Jesus himself referred to the OT at several occasions. Why would God use the words devour, consume, burn up, perish, death, if it were to mean everlasting torture?[/FONT][/COLOR]

[FONT=Arial]All through out the Bible hellfire is described as a consuming, devouring fire.[/FONT][FONT=Arial] [/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial]nt, we have to believe in the on this verse into believing it means burn up, when you say it means a continual burning???[/FONT][FONT=Arial]"You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger; The Lord shall swallow them up in His wrath, and the fire shall [FONT=Arial]devour[/FONT] them." Psalms 21:9. "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silent; a fire shall [FONT=Arial]devour[/FONT] before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous all around Him." Psalms 50:3. "A fire goes before Him, and [FONT=Arial]burns up[/FONT] His enemies round about." Psalms 97:3 "But a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will [FONT=Arial]devour[/FONT] the adversaries." Hebrews 10:27. "They went up on the breadth of the earth and surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and [FONT=Arial]devoured[/FONT] them." Revelation 20:9. The fire and judgment that burns the wicked is described as a devouring, consuming fire that burns up the wicked. If something is devoured, it obviously isn't burning for ages. If something is consumed and burned up, it will not continue to burn, and this is actually the purpose of fire, to burn and devour what it is consuming. (See Judges 9:15, 20; Isaiah 9:18; 10:17; 33:11; Hosea 8:14; Amos 1:4, 7, 10, 12, 14; 2:2, 5; 5:6; Nahum 3:13; Zechariah 11:1: 2:6.) And thus, as with [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Gomorrah[/FONT][FONT=Arial], hellfire will consume and devour all that is to be consumed, and then it will go out.[/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial]Don’t you think if it were as the unimaginable horrific picture you present, that God would be consistent from the very first verse in the Old testament through the New Testament, that he would say plain out in every single verse he is describing his punishment, he would say eternal life in torture and burning rather then burn up and not the words he use: consume,devour,burn up, perish, death, turn into ashes! Which all means they will have NO life left after they have had their fair punishment.[/FONT][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Originally Posted by [FONT=Verdana]LA-girl[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana], I'm going to bring up a well quoted verse that is very obvious about this and leaves no room for ambiguity or interpretation and quote it here:

 

Revelation 20:14-15

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

 

Yes, true. THere will be a lake of fire which eventually will burn every sinner and the devil UP! [/FONT][/COLOR]

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Re-read the verse carefully, it says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire, which means the inhabitants of hell - are changed to a different place called 'the lake of fire'. Currently, the lake of fire is unoccupied, but hell is full of people who are currently burning. Hell and the [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Lake[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] of [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Fire[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] is two distinct theological locations - both involve torment and suffering of inhabitants who are there.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]This is pardon me, a big devil’s LIE! The idea of people suffering in hell now are completely UN-BIBLICAL! First the word hell is used about several different greek words. Sometimes it is refferred to as GRAVE or DUMP. Sometimes as an ACT ([/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Lake[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] of fire)[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]WHERE ARE THE DEAD RIGHT NOW?[/FONT][/COLOR]

[FONT=Arial]Jesus himself gives us the answer, "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:… Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:… And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." II Peter 2:9 KJV. "But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day judgment and perdition of ungodly men." II Pet. 3:7. Obviously from these verses none have been punished, not even the fallen angels are being punished right now. The fallen angels, the unjust, and the ungodly are all being reserved until the day of judgment and perdition[/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial]LOOK AT THIS VERSE:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Daniel 12:2.[/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial]Why would God say that they SLEEP if they are being tormented in hell right now??[/FONT][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Originally Posted by [FONT=Verdana]LA-girl[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Mark [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]9:43[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] "And if thine hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

 

The fire will not be quenched! There will not be anything (rain, or fire-men to extinguish the fire.) God says this so that we will know that no-one will have the chance of escaping. The worm will do its job in order to ensure us that if the fire will not get rid of all the sinners/demons/devil. the worm will do it's job to make sure that all will eventually be gone. [/FONT][/COLOR]

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And how do you know the 'worm' is not referring to their souls not dying?[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Why would God/Jesus use the word “worm” for human souls if the threath was so horrific as you imply? God would have warned us plain out in all the verses that describes the final act of dealing with the wicked! In stead he uses all these adjectives that plainly states DEATH![/FONT][/COLOR]

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That's really the point of contention about hell or the lake of fire. For seemingly light types of offenses, people could burn up forever in hell.

I do not see what anyone can do bad enough that would warrant eternal punishment in hell, and I'm sure you can either, which is why you have your rationalization. However, it doesn't wash theologically, as I will show you later. Even if we dont like the information in the Bible, we have to deal with it, and try to get an honest picture based on the information at hand, rather than try to sanatise it to fit into our own notions of what is fair or just.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Do you really think God who created us in his image would describe his own character in the Bible about him being a just and loving God. Then he give life to billions of people with a natural tendency to follow his own flesh and the world. Then he would tell them that if you do not obey me I will make you suffer in torment forever and ever and ever. And God would not mind his own creatures suffer in those flames, not a billion years, but forever and ever and ever? THAT WOULD BE FORCED WORSHIP! He wants us to CHOOSE him and LOVE him and TRUST in him! How could we love and trust such a mean God that the Devil wants us to believe he is? GOD WANTS US TO UNDERSTAND THROUGH THE BIBLE THAT HE IS GOOD; HE IS LOVE; HE IS JUST!![/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]He could not create us with a better sense of just than he. He wants to be our IDOL. How could he then present himself as the a worse dictator than the Hitler and the Devil and then wants us to look up to him as an idol of goodness and Love?? [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]NO WAY[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]!!![/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Originally Posted by [FONT=Verdana]LA-girl[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

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What would make a more 'sadist' God is the idea that people could fall through the cracks and go to hell either not understanding the Gospel enough to receive Jesus Christ, or receiving adequate conviction, or never hearing the Gospel or knowing how to receive Jesus Christ into their hearts - in my humble opinion. I've never been able to resolve that conflict of thought, but I do believe, if someone is sincere, and really wants to know God, then they will have an opportunity to hear the Gospel.

 

Again this only strengten these facts that God will DESTROY,consume burn up every sinners including the Devil. [/FONT][/COLOR]

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How do they strengthen these facts? The Bible clearly shows hell is temporary abode for the wicked dead, who then after a White Throne Judgement are transferred eternally to a lake of fire.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]NOPE! Wrong, I have explained this earlier that there are no-one in hell today. They are all reserved in their graves, sleeping, until the day of judgement.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Originally Posted by [FONT=Verdana]LA-girl[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I'd be more worried about saving my own butt and people aught to be worried about saving theirs rather than go into speculation. If you were summoned to go to court, I'm sure you would be dealing with the charges rather than arguing about the legitimacy of the system.

 

I agree that we should tell people about the gift of salvation. But in order to save people they need to hear the REAL TRUTH ABOUT GODS CHARACTER! Nobody could love a sadistic God, and luckily he is not! He is mercyful enough to give people a just punisment and then let them DIE! [/FONT][/COLOR]

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Well, this is over-the-top anyway. It goes without saying, people who are receptive to the Gospel have a hunger and thirst for the things of God, and the love of God is manifested. I got saved by the manifested love of God, not with a 'accept Christ or burn forever in hell'. I think people respond the same way to that. However, along with the love Gospel, there is also a reality that if people postpone their decision to receive Jesus, when they have an opportunity to do so, then they are gambling with their eternal souls, those borderline people need to hear about hell and make a decision before it's too late.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]No, I have heard many unbelievers NOT WILLING to accept God/Christ because they see him as this sadistic God who would send billions of his own creatures into everlasting torture! It does not seem fair at all, and it isn’t! I’m trying to tell you that this is NOT the case. God wants to SHOW us that he is fair by punishing according to their deeds and then let all the wicked and ALL EVIL burn up and die the second DEATH![/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Originally Posted by [FONT=Verdana]LA-girl[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]God the Father already sent Jesus to die for the sins of everyone so there is no excuse, people simply have to trust Jesus to miss hell and it's as simple as that.

 

What about those who never hear the gospel? God could never send those or anyone for that matter into eternal punisment!! [/FONT][/COLOR]

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Why not? If the Bible says there is only one way to get to heaven, and people do not go through that way, whether it is through neglect or ignorance, then there is no other hope. People have to hear the Gospel, be able to receive Jesus, and actually receive Jesus in order to be saved. [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]There is no other recourse.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]They can not neglect or ignore something they have NEVER heard about? God would have to destroy them (because he has promised that sin will never rise up a second time), but not send them into everlasting torture!!![/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Originally Posted by [FONT=Verdana]LA-girl[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]1) People do not choose to be born - and if someone ends up going to hell, then they should not have been born because that just sucks. It's better never to have existed than to be tormented eternally. Since God knows the future and knows who will end up to be going to hell, then it follows, that God also knows who is being born will end up in hell, and by creating that soul - it's ultimately destiny could be eternal torment --- this conceivably could lead to a perverse interpretation of things.

 

Nobody chooses to be born, correct.

It is a gift! Why? Because there are two roads: destruction, death or eternal life with Jesus! [/FONT][/COLOR]

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It's a gift if you end up with eternal life with Jesus, certainly not a good thing if you are under eternal torment and constantly trying to kill yourself but not succeeding in that place because you cant die.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]But if this was the case, that God would send his CHILDREN into everlasting torment because they failed, or did not get to hear about Jesus, then he would be worse than the Devil himself. How could a God who uses the words just and love towards all his children, be worse than the devil himself which he claims are the BAD guy! IT MAKES ABSOLUTELET NO SENSE!!![/FONT][/COLOR]

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Also Jesus tells us that FEW will make it to heaven! Again God did not create us out of love in order to send us into eternal torment for those who won't make it! It is ABSURD!

 

Unless He created some laws or parameters that have taken a life of their own. Your contention is that my theology undermines the character of God, because, the eternal construct of hell is conceptually unjust. However, it's in the Bible and it's there. People's sins are the premise of going to hell.

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

Even this well-quoted verse says it all: The sinners will PERISH!!! And the saved will have EVERLASTING LIFE!

 

Perish means the second death - I've already discussed what that means.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Originally Posted by [FONT=Verdana]LA=girl[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]It is only the saved who will have the gift of everlasting life, not the sinners. It doesn't say: "should not have everlasting life in torment!! IT SAYS THEY WILL PERISH!!! How much more clearer can it be???[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]

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Right, but the book of Revelation defines perishing to the 'Lake of Fire'.

 

One final submission of proof of eternal torment in the Lake of Fire, but this is going to be likely difficult for you to grasp if you do not understand Bible prophecy - but I'm going to try anyway.

 

Revelation 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceved them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone."

 

The devil is bound for a thousand years - during the reign of the Millenium Kingdom in Revelation 20:2-3.

 

Here, the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet are both cast alive into the lake of fire. After they are cast there, Jesus rules His Millenium Kingdom on earth for 1000 years. Revelation 20:4[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Nope, it doesn’t say they are cast into the lake of fire here. Here it is reffered to that the devil and his demons will “go insane” during the 1000 years of piece, because they will have no living things (NO HUMANS, PIGS) to deceive. They’re “happiness” depends on deceiving and plague living things, when there are no living things The devil and his demons will be bound because they can not do any harm.[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]

 

Ok, so at this point, we are in the [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Millenium[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Kingdom[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] - 1000 years are supposed to have come and gone. If what you are saying is true, then the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet would have all been burned instantly.

 

However, look what happens 1000 years later.

 

The devil is released from prison and deceives the nations once again

Revelatoin 20:7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison."[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Yes, then he is being loosened because the dead sinners will be resurrected because of the following judgement. Now, all of the sudden he is being released because now he has living things to deceive once again![/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]

 

Look what happens after this occurs:

 

Revelatoin 20:10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, WHERE THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET ARE, AND SHALL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER."

 

That is what the Bible says - eternal torment.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Like I have told you earlier. The sinners and the Devil will be cast into the lake of fire. The Devil will burn and burn for as long as it takes for him to burn up. He will burn the longest (how long? nobody knows) but eventually everybody will burn up![/FONT][/COLOR]

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1000 years - the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet ARE STILL ALIVE - THEY ARE STILL THERE - IT DOESN'T TAKE 1000 YEARS TO BURN SOMETHING. The devil joins them, and is then tormented along with everyone else for ever and ever, nothing just ceases to exist there.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Like I have explained, nobody will be cast into hell-fire until after the 1000 year millennium.

 

This is as clear as day, whatever place this is --- IT IS ETERNAL.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]This is clear as the day, every sinner and the devil will not be punished in the lake of fire (according to their work) until after the 1000 years. Eventually they will all BURN UP and turn to ASHES![/FONT][/COLOR]

 

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[Admiral Thrawn]

One final submission of proof of eternal torment in the Lake of Fire, but this is going to be likely difficult for you to grasp if you do not understand Bible prophecy - but I'm going to try anyway.

 

Revelation 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceved them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone."

 

The devil is bound for a thousand years - during the reign of the Millenium Kingdom in Revelation 20:2-3.

 

Here, the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet are both cast alive into the lake of fire. After they are cast there, Jesus rules His Millenium Kingdom on earth for 1000 years. Revelation 20:4[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Nope, it doesn’t say they are cast into the lake of fire here. Here it is reffered to that the devil and his demons will “go insane” during the 1000 years of piece, because they will have no living things (NO HUMANS, PIGS) to deceive. They’re “happiness” depends on deceiving and plague living things, when there are no living things The devil and his demons will be bound because they can not do any harm.[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]

 

Look, you are really raising interesting discussions and perspectives about the issue, however, what I have already show you a reference on Revelation 19:20 about the Anti-Christ and False Prophet being cast alive into the lake of fire, and staying there for a period of 1000 years, where the devil joins them, and they both suffer eternally there so show the perpetuity of hell.

There are other verses as well that I also have quoted show this in black and white.

 

How can you say that it doesn't say that they are cast into the lake of fire, when it says so in black and white? I'm quoting verses and interpreting them in at face value, and in conjunction with other verses in the Bible to leave a clear and coherent picture. The biblical defination of perish, again, can mean something different to what we understand as perish.

[LA-girl]

But death means seperation rather than annihilation in theological terms.

Physical death is seperation of the body and the spirit.

Spiritual death is seperation of the spirit from God - that is classified as the second death.

 

The second death means that God is going to make sure that both the body AND the souls are going to eventually being DESTROYED, BURNED UP, TURN INTO ASHES!

 

Look at the absurd logic of this. If people die, then what's the point of resurrecting them again just to kill them again, the logic is not there at all.

 

The point of resurrecting them again is for every sinner to have their just punishment before they die the second death. It is the only way God can be GOOD and JUST, for everyone to pay for their evil deeds. This is to show us that he will not let a person like Hitler for instance get away without any suffering before the final, second death. God will make sure that everyone that is not saved will get their rightful punisment before they eventually DIE the second time

 

Who 'will render to each one according to his deeds” Romans 2:6

 

Everyone will burn/suffer according to their evil works (disobeying God). The most wicked will be punished with many stripes and those who have done less evil with few stripes. Here we see that God will punish everyone differently according to their works! I am not saying that everyone will get killed by the fire immediately. They will probably burn for a different length of time depending on how bad they have been. The Devil burning longest! He will be tortured in the lake of fire as it is said in Revelation day and night for as long as it will take for him to in the end BURN UP!

How will it be just and fair if Adam was thrown in hell like you mention 6000 years ago and after more than 5000 years later Hitler, one of the worst tyranns ever, comes along, then he dies and is being thrown in hell. (I assume Hitler wasn’t saved). How would it be fair for Adam to suffer in hell over 5000 years more than Hitler?

 

Revelation 14:10-11 "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb;

And the smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up FOR EVER AND EVER, and THEY HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT,..."

 

Here we have another clear as day glimpse - there is no ambiguity, here we have words like TORMENT, and FOR EVER AND EVER, no REST DAY AND NIGHT, perptetual torment.

 

Let me illustrate this with an example:In the Bible, we are given an example of what hell will be like. "As Sodom] and Gomorrah and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7. God has frequently taught us what future events will be like by giving an example which occurred during the old covenant. Hellfire is just one example of this. The story of Sodomand Gomorrah in the book of Genesis, is not just an historical story, but an example of what will be in the future as well. We are told that Sodom and Gomorrah are set forth as an example of eternal fire. The story is a familiar one; because of the great wickedness of the cities in the plain, God "rained brimstone and fire on [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens." Genesis 19:24. We are told that this was "eternal fire," but are Sodom] and Gomorrah] still burning today? Of course not. Everyone knows that the fires of ]Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and ]Gomorrah have gone out years ago. You cannot visit a site in the Middle East and have the tour guide tell you that it is the eternally burning fires of Sodom and Gomorrah[]. We don't know exactly how long the fires burnt, but we do know that they finally went out. How then could it be eternal fire? The results were eternal. Never again have the cities of ]Sodom] and [/FONT][]Gomorrah[/] been rebuilt. It was an eternally consuming fire. It consumed every last object and then, when there was nothing more to burn, the fires went out. "And turning the cities of Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and/Gomorrah[/FONT=Arial] into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making then an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;" II Peter 2:6. Peter adds the detail that [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Gomorrah[/FONT][FONT=Arial] were turned into ashes. Ashes according the [FONT=Arial]Webster's New World Dictionary[/FONT] is defined as, "the substance remaining after a thing has been burned." Ashes do not burn. Ashes are what is leftover after something has already been burned. It can clearly be seen from the Bible that [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Gomorrah[/FONT][FONT=Arial] are not still burning, but that "God destroyed the cities of the plain." Genesis 19:29. Since [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Gomorrah[/FONT][FONT=Arial] are an example of eternal fire, we can know that the eternal fires of hellfire will, likewise, not continue for the billions of years of eternity.[/FONT][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]

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by []LA-girl

]We were created to live eternally, but because of sin, God has to destroy (as in burn up) all sinners who has not received Jesus' gift of salvation

 

Which could mean an eternal 'burning up'.

 

]Why would God say BURN UP, rather then burn? Burn UP menas what it means. Why should God try to trick us in this verse into believing it means burn up, when you say it means a continual burning

LA-girl[/

Rather than bring up some obscure verse out of a hat

 

I'm sorry, but what do you mean by obscure? It is GODS WORD

There are more direct verses that deal with the subject matter that have to be addressed, like the ones I brought up in Revelation or what Jesus said about hell

 

]Do you really think that God would contradict himself. If we can believe in the New testament, we have to believe in the Old too. Jesus himself referred to the OT at several occasions. Why would God use the words devour, consume, burn up, perish, death, if it were to mean everlasting torture?[/]All through out the Bible hellfire is described as a consuming, devouring fire.

 

nt, we have to believe in the on this verse into believing it means burn up, when you say it means a continual burning"You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger; The Lord shall swallow them up in His wrath, and the fire shall devour[/FONT] them." Psalms 21:9. "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silent; a fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous all around Him." Psalms 50:3. "A fire goes before Him, and burns up His enemies round about." Psalms 97:3 "But a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." Hebrews 10:27. "They went up on the breadth of the earth and surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them." Revelation 20:9. The fire and judgment that burns the wicked is described as a devouring, consuming fire that burns up the wicked. If something is devoured, it obviously isn't burning for ages. If something is consumed and burned up, it will not continue to burn, and this is actually the purpose of fire, to burn and devour what it is consuming. (See Judges 9:15, 20; Isaiah 9:18; 10:17; 33:11; Hosea 8:14; Amos 1:4, 7, 10, 12, 14; 2:2, 5; 5:6; Nahum 3:13; Zechariah 11:1: 2:6.) And thus, as with ]Sodom and Gomorrah, hellfire will consume and devour all that is to be consumed, and then it will go out

 

]Don’t you think if it were as the unimaginable horrific picture you present, that God would be consistent from the very first verse in the Old testament through the New Testament, that he would say plain out in every single verse he is describing his punishment, he would say eternal life in torture and burning rather then burn up and not the words he use: consume,devour,burn up, perish, death, turn into ashes! Which all means they will have NO life left after they have had their fair punishment.[/

 

 

], I'm going to bring up a well quoted verse that is very obvious about this and leaves no room for ambiguity or interpretation and quote it here:

 

Revelation 20:14-15

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

 

Yes, true. THere will be a lake of fire which eventually will burn every sinner and the devil UP!

 

Re-read the verse carefully, it says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire, which means the inhabitants of hell - are changed to a different place called 'the lake of fire'. Currently, the lake of fire is unoccupied, but hell is full of people who are currently burning. Hell and the ] of ] is two distinct theological locations - both involve torment and suffering of inhabitants who are there

 

This is pardon me, a big devil’s LIE! The idea of people suffering in hell now are completely UN-BIBLICAL! First the word hell is used about several different greek words. Sometimes it is refferred to as GRAVE or DUMP. Sometimes as an ACT ]Lake] of fire)

]WHERE ARE THE DEAD RIGHT NOW?[/

Jesus himself gives us the answer, "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:… Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:… And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." II Peter 2:9 KJV. "But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reservedunto fire against the day judgment and perdition of ungodly men." II Pet. 3:7. Obviously from these verses none have been punished, not even the fallen angels are being punished right now. The fallen angels, the unjust, and the ungodly are all being reserved until the day of judgment and perdition[/[FONT=Arial]LOOK AT THIS VERSE:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Daniel 12:2.[/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial]Why would God say that they SLEEP if they are being tormented in hell right now??[/FONT][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]

[]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Originally Posted by [FONT=Verdana]LA-girl[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Mark [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]9:43[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] "And if thine hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

 

The fire will not be quenched! There will not be anything (rain, or fire-men to extinguish the fire.) God says this so that we will know that no-one will have the chance of escaping. The worm will do its job in order to ensure us that if the fire will not get rid of all the sinners/demons/devil. the worm will do it's job to make sure that all will eventually be gone. [/FONT][/COLOR]

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And how do you know the 'worm' is not referring to their souls not dying?[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Why would God/Jesus use the word “worm” for human souls if the threath was so horrific as you imply? God would have warned us plain out in all the verses that describes the final act of dealing with the wicked! In stead he uses all these adjectives that plainly states DEATH![/FONT][/COLOR]

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That's really the point of contention about hell or the lake of fire. For seemingly light types of offenses, people could burn up forever in hell.

I do not see what anyone can do bad enough that would warrant eternal punishment in hell, and I'm sure you can either, which is why you have your rationalization. However, it doesn't wash theologically, as I will show you later. Even if we dont like the information in the Bible, we have to deal with it, and try to get an honest picture based on the information at hand, rather than try to sanatise it to fit into our own notions of what is fair or just.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Do you really think God who created us in his image would describe his own character in the Bible about him being a just and loving God. Then he give life to billions of people with a natural tendency to follow his own flesh and the world. Then he would tell them that if you do not obey me I will make you suffer in torment forever and ever and ever. And God would not mind his own creatures suffer in those flames, not a billion years, but forever and ever and ever? THAT WOULD BE FORCED WORSHIP! He wants us to CHOOSE him and LOVE him and TRUST in him! How could we love and trust such a mean God that the Devil wants us to believe he is? GOD WANTS US TO UNDERSTAND THROUGH THE BIBLE THAT HE IS GOOD; HE IS LOVE; HE IS JUST!![/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]He could not create us with a better sense of just than he. He wants to be our IDOL. How could he then present himself as the a worse dictator than the Hitler and the Devil and then wants us to look up to him as an idol of goodness and Love?? [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]NO WAY[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]!!![/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Originally Posted by [FONT=Verdana]LA-girl[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

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What would make a more 'sadist' God is the idea that people could fall through the cracks and go to hell either not understanding the Gospel enough to receive Jesus Christ, or receiving adequate conviction, or never hearing the Gospel or knowing how to receive Jesus Christ into their hearts - in my humble opinion. I've never been able to resolve that conflict of thought, but I do believe, if someone is sincere, and really wants to know God, then they will have an opportunity to hear the Gospel.

 

Again this only strengten these facts that God will DESTROY,consume burn up every sinners including the Devil. [/FONT][/COLOR]

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How do they strengthen these facts? The Bible clearly shows hell is temporary abode for the wicked dead, who then after a White Throne Judgement are transferred eternally to a lake of fire.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]NOPE! Wrong, I have explained this earlier that there are no-one in hell today. They are all reserved in their graves, sleeping, until the day of judgement.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Originally Posted by [FONT=Verdana]LA-girl[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I'd be more worried about saving my own butt and people aught to be worried about saving theirs rather than go into speculation. If you were summoned to go to court, I'm sure you would be dealing with the charges rather than arguing about the legitimacy of the system.

 

I agree that we should tell people about the gift of salvation. But in order to save people they need to hear the REAL TRUTH ABOUT GODS CHARACTER! Nobody could love a sadistic God, and luckily he is not! He is mercyful enough to give people a just punisment and then let them DIE! [/FONT][/COLOR]

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Well, this is over-the-top anyway. It goes without saying, people who are receptive to the Gospel have a hunger and thirst for the things of God, and the love of God is manifested. I got saved by the manifested love of God, not with a 'accept Christ or burn forever in hell'. I think people respond the same way to that. However, along with the love Gospel, there is also a reality that if people postpone their decision to receive Jesus, when they have an opportunity to do so, then they are gambling with their eternal souls, those borderline people need to hear about hell and make a decision before it's too late.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]No, I have heard many unbelievers NOT WILLING to accept God/Christ because they see him as this sadistic God who would send billions of his own creatures into everlasting torture! It does not seem fair at all, and it isn’t! I’m trying to tell you that this is NOT the case. God wants to SHOW us that he is fair by punishing according to their deeds and then let all the wicked and ALL EVIL burn up and die the second DEATH![/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Originally Posted by [FONT=Verdana]LA-girl[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]God the Father already sent Jesus to die for the sins of everyone so there is no excuse, people simply have to trust Jesus to miss hell and it's as simple as that.

 

What about those who never hear the gospel? God could never send those or anyone for that matter into eternal punisment!! [/FONT][/COLOR]

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Why not? If the Bible says there is only one way to get to heaven, and people do not go through that way, whether it is through neglect or ignorance, then there is no other hope. People have to hear the Gospel, be able to receive Jesus, and actually receive Jesus in order to be saved. [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]There is no other recourse.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]They can not neglect or ignore something they have NEVER heard about? God would have to destroy them (because he has promised that sin will never rise up a second time), but not send them into everlasting torture!!![/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Originally Posted by [FONT=Verdana]LA-girl[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]1) People do not choose to be born - and if someone ends up going to hell, then they should not have been born because that just sucks. It's better never to have existed than to be tormented eternally. Since God knows the future and knows who will end up to be going to hell, then it follows, that God also knows who is being born will end up in hell, and by creating that soul - it's ultimately destiny could be eternal torment --- this conceivably could lead to a perverse interpretation of things.

 

Nobody chooses to be born, correct.

It is a gift! Why? Because there are two roads: destruction, death or eternal life with Jesus! [/FONT][/COLOR]

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It's a gift if you end up with eternal life with Jesus, certainly not a good thing if you are under eternal torment and constantly trying to kill yourself but not succeeding in that place because you cant die.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]But if this was the case, that God would send his CHILDREN into everlasting torment because they failed, or did not get to hear about Jesus, then he would be worse than the Devil himself. How could a God who uses the words just and love towards all his children, be worse than the devil himself which he claims are the BAD guy! IT MAKES ABSOLUTELET NO SENSE!!![/FONT][/COLOR]

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Also Jesus tells us that FEW will make it to heaven! Again God did not create us out of love in order to send us into eternal torment for those who won't make it! It is ABSURD!

 

Unless He created some laws or parameters that have taken a life of their own. Your contention is that my theology undermines the character of God, because, the eternal construct of hell is conceptually unjust. However, it's in the Bible and it's there. People's sins are the premise of going to hell.

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

Even this well-quoted verse says it all: The sinners will PERISH!!! And the saved will have EVERLASTING LIFE!

 

Perish means the second death - I've already discussed what that means.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Originally Posted by [FONT=Verdana]LA=girl[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]It is only the saved who will have the gift of everlasting life, not the sinners. It doesn't say: "should not have everlasting life in torment!! IT SAYS THEY WILL PERISH!!! How much more clearer can it be???[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]

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Right, but the book of Revelation defines perishing to the 'Lake of Fire'.

 

One final submission of proof of eternal torment in the Lake of Fire, but this is going to be likely difficult for you to grasp if you do not understand Bible prophecy - but I'm going to try anyway.

 

Revelation 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceved them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone."

 

The devil is bound for a thousand years - during the reign of the Millenium Kingdom in Revelation 20:2-3.

 

Here, the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet are both cast alive into the lake of fire. After they are cast there, Jesus rules His Millenium Kingdom on earth for 1000 years. Revelation 20:4[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Nope, it doesn’t say they are cast into the lake of fire here. Here it is reffered to that the devil and his demons will “go insane” during the 1000 years of piece, because they will have no living things (NO HUMANS, PIGS) to deceive. They’re “happiness” depends on deceiving and plague living things, when there are no living things The devil and his demons will be bound because they can not do any harm.[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]

 

Ok, so at this point, we are in the [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Millenium[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Kingdom[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] - 1000 years are supposed to have come and gone. If what you are saying is true, then the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet would have all been burned instantly.

 

However, look what happens 1000 years later.

 

The devil is released from prison and deceives the nations once again

Revelatoin 20:7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison."[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Yes, then he is being loosened because the dead sinners will be resurrected because of the following judgement. Now, all of the sudden he is being released because now he has living things to deceive once again!

 

Look what happens after this occurs:

 

Revelatoin 20:10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, WHERE THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET ARE, AND SHALL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER."

 

That is what the Bible says - eternal torment.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Like I have told you earlier. The sinners and the Devil will be cast into the lake of fire. The Devil will burn and burn for as long as it takes for him to burn up. He will burn the longest (how long? nobody knows) but eventually everybody will burn up![/FONT][/COLOR]

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1000 years - the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet ARE STILL ALIVE - THEY ARE STILL THERE - IT DOESN'T TAKE 1000 YEARS TO BURN SOMETHING. The devil joins them, and is then tormented along with everyone else for ever and ever, nothing just ceases to exist there.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Like I have explained, nobody will be cast into hell-fire until after the 1000 year millennium.

 

This is as clear as day, whatever place this is --- IT IS ETERNAL.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]This is clear as the day, every sinner and the devil will not be punished in the lake of fire (according to their work) until after the 1000 years. Eventually they will all BURN UP and turn to ASHES![/FONT][/COLOR]

 

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[LA-girl]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Ok, Seems like I can not edit the post. So I'll answer your questions in several posts![/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Me in BOLD[/FONT][/COLOR]

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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]But death means seperation rather than annihilation in theological terms.

Physical death is seperation of the body and the spirit.

Spiritual death is seperation of the spirit from God - that is classified as the second death.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]The second death means that God is going to make sure that both the body AND the souls are going to eventually being DESTROYED, BURNED UP, TURN INTO ASHES!

 

Look at the absurd logic of this. If people die, then what's the point of resurrecting them again just to kill them again, the logic is not there at all.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]The point of resurrecting them again is for every sinner to have their just punishment before they die the second death. It is the only way God can be GOOD and JUST, for everyone to pay for their evil deeds. This is to show us that he will not let a person like Hitler for instance get away without any suffering before the final, second death. God will make sure that everyone that is not saved will get their rightful punisment before they eventually DIE the second time.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[FONT=Arial]"Who 'will render to each one according to his deeds” Romans 2:6.[/FONT][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Everyone will burn/suffer according to their evil works (disobeying God). The most wicked will be punished with many stripes and those who have done less evil with few stripes. Here we see that God will punish everyone differently according to their works! I am not saying that everyone will get killed by the fire immediately. They will probably burn for a different length of time depending on how bad they have been. The Devil burning longest! He will be tortured in the lake of fire as it is said in Revelation day and night for as long as it will take for him to in the end BURN UP![/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana](How will it be just and fair if Adam was thrown in hell like you mention 6000 years ago and after more than 5000 years later Hitler, one of the worst tyranns ever, comes along, then he dies and is being thrown in hell. (I assume Hitler wasn’t saved). How would it be fair for Adam to suffer in hell over 5000 years more than Hitler?

 

 

[/FONT][/COLOR]

[LA-girl]

I can't edit, so i'll take it in several posts

 

ME IN BOLD

 

But death means seperation rather than annihilation in theological terms.

Physical death is seperation of the body and the spirit.

Spiritual death is seperation of the spirit from God - that is classified as the second death.

 

The second death means that God is going to make sure that both the body AND the souls are going to eventually being DESTROYED, BURNED UP, TURN INTO ASHES!

 

Look at the absurd logic of this. If people die, then what's the point of resurrecting them again just to kill them again, the logic is not there at all.

 

The point of resurrecting them again is for every sinner to have their just punishment before they die the second death. It is the only way God can be GOOD and JUST, for everyone to pay for their evil deeds. This is to show us that he will not let a person like Hitler for instance get away without any suffering before the final, second death. God will make sure that everyone that is not saved will get their rightful punisment before they eventually DIE the second time.

 

"Who 'will render to each one according to his deeds” Romans 2:6.

 

Everyone will burn/suffer according to their evil works (disobeying God). The most wicked will be punished with many stripes and those who have done less evil with few stripes. Here we see that God will punish everyone differently according to their works! I am not saying that everyone will get killed by the fire immediately. They will probably burn for a different length of time depending on how bad they have been. The Devil burning longest! He will be tortured in the lake of fire as it is said in Revelation day and night for as long as it will take for him to in the end BURN UP! How will it be just and fair if Adam was thrown in hell like you mention 6000 years ago and after more than 5000 years later Hitler, one of the worst tyranns ever, comes along, then he dies and is being thrown in hell. (I assume Hitler wasn’t saved). How would it be fair for Adam to suffer in hell over 5000 years more than Hitler?

[LA-girl]

MY ANSWER IN BOLD

 

Revelation 14:10-11 "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb;

And the smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up FOR EVER AND EVER, and THEY HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT,..."

 

Here we have another clear as day glimpse - there is no ambiguity, here we have words like TORMENT, and FOR EVER AND EVER, no REST DAY AND NIGHT, perptetual torment.

 

Let me illustrate this with an example:

 

In the Bible, we are given an example of what hell will be like. "As Sodom] and Gomorrah and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7. God has frequently taught us what future events will be like by giving an example which occurred during the old covenant. Hellfire is just one example of this. The story of Sodomand Gomorrah in the book of Genesis, is not just an historical story, but an example of what will be in the future as well. We are told that Sodom and Gomorrah are set forth as an example of eternal fire. The story is a familiar one; because of the great wickedness of the cities in the plain, God "rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens." Genesis 19:24. We are told that this was "eternal fire," but are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning today? Of course not. Everyone knows that the fires of ]Sodom and ]Gomorrah have gone out years ago. You cannot visit a site in the Middle East and have the tour guide tell you that it is the eternally burning fires of Sodom and Gomorrah. We don't know exactly how long the fires burnt, but we do know that they finally went out. How then could it be eternal fire? The results were eternal. Never again have the cities of ]Sodom and Gomorrah been rebuilt. It was an eternally consuming fire. It consumed every last object and then, when there was nothing more to burn, the fires went out. "And turning the cities of Sodom] and/Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making then an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;" II Peter 2:6. Peter adds the detail that ]Sodom and Gomorrah were turned into ashes. Ashes according the Webster's New World Dictionary is defined as, "the substance remaining after a thing has been burned." Ashes do not burn. Ashes are what is leftover after something has already been burned. It can clearly be seen from the Bible that ]Sodom and are not still burning, but that "God destroyed the cities of the plain." Genesis 19:29. Since ]Sodom] and ]Gomorrah are an example of eternal fire, we can know that the eternal fires of hellfire will, likewise, not continue for the billions of years of eternity.

[LA-girl]

There are more direct verses that deal with the subject matter that have to be addressed, like the ones I brought up in Revelation or what Jesus said about hell

 

]Do you really think that God would contradict himself. If we can believe in the New testament, we have to believe in the Old too. Jesus himself referred to the OT at several occasions. Why would God use the words devour, consume, burn up, perish, death, if it were to mean everlasting torture?[/]All through out the Bible hellfire is described as a consuming, devouring fire.

 

nt, we have to believe in the on this verse into believing it means burn up, when you say it means a continual burning"You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger; The Lord shall swallow them up in His wrath, and the fire shall devour them." Psalms 21:9. "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silent; a fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous all around Him." Psalms 50:3. "A fire goes before Him, and burns up His enemies round about." Psalms 97:3 "But a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." Hebrews 10:27. "They went up on the breadth of the earth and surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them." Revelation 20:9. The fire and judgment that burns the wicked is described as a devouring, consuming fire that burns up the wicked. If something is devoured, it obviously isn't burning for ages. If something is consumed and burned up, it will not continue to burn, and this is actually the purpose of fire, to burn and devour what it is consuming. (See Judges 9:15, 20; Isaiah 9:18; 10:17; 33:11; Hosea 8:14; Amos 1:4, 7, 10, 12, 14; 2:2, 5; 5:6; Nahum 3:13; Zechariah 11:1: 2:6.) And thus, as with ]Sodom and Gomorrah, hellfire will consume and devour all that is to be consumed, and then it will go out

 

]Don’t you think if it were as the unimaginable horrific picture you present, that God would be consistent from the very first verse in the Old testament through the New Testament, that he would say plain out in every single verse he is describing his punishment, he would say eternal life in torture and burning rather then burn up and not the words he use: consume,devour,burn up, perish, death, turn into ashes!

 

Which all means they will have NO life left after they have had their fair punishment.

[LA-girl]

MY ANSWER IN BOLD

 

I'm going to bring up a well quoted verse that is very obvious about this and leaves no room for ambiguity or interpretation and quote it here:

 

Revelation 20:14-15

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

 

Yes, true. THere will be a lake of fire which eventually will burn every sinner and the devil UP!

 

Re-read the verse carefully, it says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire, which means the inhabitants of hell - are changed to a different place called 'the lake of fire'. Currently, the lake of fire is unoccupied, but hell is full of people who are currently burning. Hell and the ] of ] is two distinct theological locations - both involve torment and suffering of inhabitants who are there

 

This is pardon me, a big devil’s LIE! The idea of people suffering in hell now are completely UN-BIBLICAL! First the word hell is used about several different greek words. Sometimes it is refferred to as GRAVE or DUMP. Sometimes as an ACT ]Lake] of fire)

]WHERE ARE THE DEAD RIGHT NOW?[/

Jesus himself gives us the answer, "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:… Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:… And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46.

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." II Peter 2:9 KJV. "But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reservedunto fire against the day judgment and perdition of ungodly men." II Pet. 3:7. Obviously from these verses none have been punished, not even the fallen angels are being punished right now. The fallen angels, the unjust, and the ungodly are all being reserved until the day of judgment and perdition

 

LOOK AT THIS VERSE:

"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2.

Why would God say that they SLEEP if they are being tormented in hell right now

[LA-girl]

ME IN BOLD

 

"And if thine hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

 

The fire will not be quenched! There will not be anything (rain, or fire-men to extinguish the fire.) God says this so that we will know that no-one will have the chance of escaping. The worm will do its job in order to ensure us that if the fire will not get rid of all the sinners/demons/devil. the worm will do it's job to make sure that all will eventually be gone.

 

And how do you know the 'worm' is not referring to their souls not dying

 

Why would God/Jesus use the word “worm” for human souls if the threath was so horrific as you imply? God would have warned us plain out in all the verses that describes the final act of dealing with the wicked! In stead he uses all these adjectives that plainly states DEATH!

 

That's really the point of contention about hell or the lake of fire. For seemingly light types of offenses, people could burn up forever in hell.

I do not see what anyone can do bad enough that would warrant eternal punishment in hell, and I'm sure you can either, which is why you have your rationalization. However, it doesn't wash theologically, as I will show you later. Even if we dont like the information in the Bible, we have to deal with it, and try to get an honest picture based on the information at hand, rather than try to sanatise it to fit into our own notions of what is fair or just.

 

Do you really think God who created us in his image would describe his own character in the Bible about him being a just and loving God. Then he give life to billions of people with a natural tendency to follow his own flesh and the world. Then he would tell them that if you do not obey me I will make you suffer in torment forever and ever and ever. And God would not mind his own creatures suffer in those flames, not a billion years, but forever and ever and ever? THAT WOULD BE FORCED WORSHIP! He wants us to CHOOSE him and LOVE him and TRUST in him! How could we love and trust such a mean God that the Devil wants us to believe he is? GOD WANTS US TO UNDERSTAND THROUGH THE BIBLE THAT HE IS GOOD; HE IS LOVE; HE IS JUST!!

 

He could not create us with a better sense of just than him. He wants to be our IDOL. How could he then present himself as the a worse dictator than the Hitler and the Devil and then wants us to look up to him as an idol of goodness and Love?? NO WAY!!!

[LA-girl]

ME IN BOLD

 

What would make a more 'sadist' God is the idea that people could fall through the cracks and go to hell either not understanding the Gospel enough to receive Jesus Christ, or receiving adequate conviction, or never hearing the Gospel or knowing how to receive Jesus Christ into their hearts - in my humble opinion. I've never been able to resolve that conflict of thought, but I do believe, if someone is sincere, and really wants to know God, then they will have an opportunity to hear the Gospel.

 

Again this only strengten these facts that God will DESTROY,consume burn up every sinners including the Devil.

 

How do they strengthen these facts? The Bible clearly shows hell is temporary abode for the wicked dead, who then after a White Throne Judgement are transferred eternally to a lake of fire

 

NOPE! Wrong, I have explained this earlier that there are no-one in hell today. They are all reserved in their graves, sleeping, until the day of judgement.[

 

]I'd be more worried about saving my own butt and people aught to be worried about saving theirs rather than go into speculation. If you were summoned to go to court, I'm sure you would be dealing with the charges rather than arguing about the legitimacy of the system.

 

I agree that we should tell people about the gift of salvation. But in order to save people they need to hear the REAL TRUTH ABOUT GODS CHARACTER! Nobody could love a sadistic God, and luckily he is not! He is mercyful enough to give people a just punisment and then let them DIE!

 

Well, this is over-the-top anyway. It goes without saying, people who are receptive to the Gospel have a hunger and thirst for the things of God, and the love of God is manifested. I got saved by the manifested love of God, not with a 'accept Christ or burn forever in hell'. I think people respond the same way to that. However, along with the love Gospel, there is also a reality that if people postpone their decision to receive Jesus, when they have an opportunity to do so, then they are gambling with their eternal souls, those borderline people need to hear about hell and make a decision before it's too late.

 

No, I have heard many unbelievers NOT WILLING to accept God/Christ because they see him as this sadistic God who would send billions of his own creatures into everlasting torture! It does not seem fair at all, and it isn’t! I’m trying to tell you that this is NOT the case. God wants to SHOW us that he is fair by punishing according to their deeds and then let all the wicked and ALL EVIL burn up and die the second DEATH!

[LA-girl]

MY ANSWER IN BOLD

 

Perish means the second death - I've already discussed what that means.

 

It is only the saved who will have the gift of everlasting life, not the sinners. It doesn't say: "should not have everlasting life in torment!! IT SAYS THEY WILL PERISH!!! How much more clearer can it be???

 

Right, but the book of Revelation defines perishing to the 'Lake of Fire'.

 

One final submission of proof of eternal torment in the Lake of Fire, but this is going to be likely difficult for you to grasp if you do not understand Bible prophecy - but I'm going to try anyway.

 

Revelation 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceved them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone."

 

The devil is bound for a thousand years - during the reign of the Millenium Kingdom in Revelation 20:2-3.

 

Here, the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet are both cast alive into the lake of fire. After they are cast there, Jesus rules His Millenium Kingdom on earth for 1000 years. Revelation 20:4

 

Nope, it doesn’t say they are cast into the lake of fire here. Here it is reffered to that the devil and his demons will “go insane” during the 1000 years of piece, because they will have no living things (NO HUMANS, PIGS) to deceive. They’re “happiness” depends on deceiving and plague living things, when there are no living things The devil and his demons will be bound because they can not do any harm.

 

Ok, so at this point, we are in the Millenium Kingdom - 1000 years are supposed to have come and gone. If what you are saying is true, then the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet would have all been burned instantly.

 

However, look what happens 1000 years later.

 

The devil is released from prison and deceives the nations once again

Revelatoin 20:7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison."

 

Yes, then he is being loosened because the dead sinners will be resurrected because of the following judgement. Now, all of the sudden he is being released because now he has living things to deceive once again!

 

Look what happens after this occurs:

 

Revelatoin 20:10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, WHERE THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET ARE, AND SHALL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER."

 

That is what the Bible says - eternal torment

 

Like I have told you earlier. The sinners and the Devil will be cast into the lake of fire. The Devil will burn and burn for as long as it takes for him to burn up. He will burn the longest (how long? nobody knows) but eventually everybody will burn up.

 

1000 years - the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet ARE STILL ALIVE - THEY ARE STILL THERE - IT DOESN'T TAKE 1000 YEARS TO BURN SOMETHING. The devil joins them, and is then tormented along with everyone else for ever and ever, nothing just ceases to exist there.

 

Like I have explained, nobody will be cast into hell-fire until after the 1000 year millennium.

 

This is as clear as day, whatever place this is --- IT IS ETERNAL.

 

This is clear as the day, every sinner and the devil will not be punished in the lake of fire (according to their work) until after the 1000 years. Eventually they will all BURN UP and turn to ASHES!

[flavius]

Now this is getting confusing. I ma reading many interesting points theough. I just cannot tell who is saying what.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Everyone will burn/suffer according to their evil works (disobeying God). The most wicked will be punished with many stripes and those who have done less evil with few stripes. Here we see that God will punish everyone differently according to their works! I am not saying that everyone will get killed by the fire immediately.

 

So they dont naturally die as a result of fire then - somehow there is some magical lifespan, where they are immune to the effects of fire on their 'mortality' until that time is expired?

 

It's interesting, because, it's also possible to have a concept of varying degrees of punishment on an eternal hell. For example, maybe varying degrees of damnation may refer to what part of hell a person resides in, how hot is the flame, how much harassment they experience from surrounding monsters, etc... show knows -- it may not be limited to a linear notion of temporal time to extinction.

 

People who have written books about hell have described varying degrees of eternal damnation and suffering to vary on the extent of torture as opposed to duration of time.

 

 

They will probably burn for a different length of time depending on how bad they have been. The Devil burning longest! He will be tortured in the lake of fire as it is said in Revelation day and night for as long as it will take for him to in the end BURN UP!

 

Please consider the point I made above. Degrees of punishment or damnation does not necessarily have to reflect divisions of time, but could reflect other divisions.

 

Let me illustrate this with an example:In the Bible, we are given an example of what hell will be like. "As Sodom] and Gomorrah and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7. God has frequently taught us what future events will be like by giving an example which occurred during the old covenant. Hellfire is just one example of this.

 

The fire symbolically reflected how hell was like. However, we seem to be in agreement that the fire of hell is eternal, where we disagree is whether the experience of torment or suffering is in itself also eternal, or is it temporary to the individual experiencing torment.

 

The story of Sodomand Gomorrah in the book of Genesis, is not just an historical story, but an example of what will be in the future as well. We are told that Sodom and Gomorrah are set forth as an example of eternal fire. The story is a familiar one; because of the great wickedness of the cities in the plain, God "rained brimstone and fire on [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens." Genesis 19:24. We are told that this was "eternal fire," but are Sodom] and Gomorrah] still burning today? Of course not. Everyone knows that the fires of ]Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and ]Gomorrah have gone out years ago. You cannot visit a site in the Middle East and have the tour guide tell you that it is the eternally burning fires of Sodom and Gomorrah[]. We don't know exactly how long the fires burnt, but we do know that they finally went out. How then could it be eternal fire? The results were eternal. Never again have the cities of ]Sodom] and [/FONT][]Gomorrah[/] been rebuilt. It was an eternally consuming fire. It consumed every last object and then, when there was nothing more to burn, the fires went out. "And turning the cities of Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and/Gomorrah[/FONT=Arial] into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making then an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;" II Peter 2:6. Peter adds the detail that [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Gomorrah[/FONT][FONT=Arial] were turned into ashes. Ashes according the [FONT=Arial]Webster's New World Dictionary[/FONT] is defined as, "the substance remaining after a thing has been burned." Ashes do not burn. Ashes are what is leftover after something has already been burned. It can clearly be seen from the Bible that [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Gomorrah[/FONT][FONT=Arial] are not still burning, but that "God destroyed the cities of the plain."

 

But the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah may still be burning today under eternal flame. We know things in the Bible refer symbolically to things that are eternal and spiritual. For example, animal sacrifice in the OT pointed to Christ, but it doesn't mean that the animal sacrifice was to be taken literally as the only way to remove sins. Similarly, the fires of Sodom and Gommorah point to eternal fires of hell. Therefore, whatever happened in Sodom and Gommorah is still occuring today, and will occur indefinately into the future. It's just that it is invisible to the naked eye because the fire is spiritual material, not a physical material.

 

I'll deal with the rest of your posts later.

 

It seems we disagree on concepts of burning up vs. eternal suffering.

 

However, one can burn up eternally - are they really two mutually exclusive concepts?

[Admiral Thrawn]

[Like I have explained, nobody will be cast into hell-fire until after the 1000 year millennium.

 

[/b]!

 

Like I have quoted from the Bible, the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet are the only two inhabitants of the hell-fire BEFORE the 1000 year millenium.

 

I've quoted a chapter and verse in Revelation where it said that, I dont have a bible with me right now, but please look at my prior posts.

 

Now, I know you have been coming up with 'loop-holes' to your arguements by saying instant combustion may not occur as varying degrees of damnation is contingent on the length of time one is alive in hell, so under your like of reasoning it is likely a moot discussion anyway.

 

However, if people vary in the amount they are kept alive in hell, then it follows that they are not really instantly consumed, toasted and dead by hell-fire as you have originally stated - so the fire doesn't kill them, but rather God's decision on how long they live.

 

That's is how I'm understanding what you are saying, and you can correct me if I'm wrong. However, if somone is not instantly 'burned up' then it would seem like you are contradicting yourself - they are kept alive over a length of time doesn't sound like someone is being burned up - it sounds like prolonged torture where people could be concious for a lenght of time, rather than just being burned up as you originally claimed.

[LA-girl]

Now this is getting confusing. I ma reading many interesting points theough. I just cannot tell who is saying what.

 

Skip my posts from post nr 60-63. I was not able to edit my posts. But I posted the same answers in later posts! After that my answers are in BOLD! Hope this helps the confusion

[LA-girl]

Originally Posted by LA-girl

Everyone will burn/suffer according to their evil works (disobeying God). The most wicked will be punished with many stripes and those who have done less evil with few stripes. Here we see that God will punish everyone differently according to their works! I am not saying that everyone will get killed by the fire immediately.

 

ADMIRAL THRAWN:

 

So they dont naturally die as a result of fire then - somehow there is some magical lifespan, where they are immune to the effects of fire on their 'mortality' until that time is expired?

 

It's interesting, because, it's also possible to have a concept of varying degrees of punishment on an eternal hell. For example, maybe varying degrees of damnation may refer to what part of hell a person resides in, how hot is the flame, how much harassment they experience from surrounding monsters, etc... show knows -- it may not be limited to a linear notion of temporal time to extinction.

 

People who have written books about hell have described varying degrees of eternal damnation and suffering to vary on the extent of torture as opposed to duration of time.

 

LA-GIRLS ANSWER:

 

God will make sure that the punisment, either the intensity or lenght of suffering in the flames will vary depending on the sinners evil works.

 

Your talking about harrassment from surrounding monsters.

I guess you have heard Bill Wiese and or Mary K- Baxters "visit" to hell. I have read it myself, and first I believed what they said. I still believe they had these visions, BUT I am convinced they did NOT come from God, but from the devil himself. WHY? Because this is how he wants us to picture God, like a tyrant who would allow his own creation suffer torment for eternity. It says in the Bible that the devil will perform many MAGIC TRICKS and DECEIVE MANY, including the very ELECT!! Satan will even impersonate JESUS Christ himself and appears as an ANGEL OF LIGHT! The weird thing with these stories where people say that they have visited hell, they all contradict eachother and also the Bible. What are we going to base our theory on, THE BIBLE or visions we do not know who is responsible for?

 

Second of all, how can these gigantic monsters which obviously are EVIL DEMONS torture human-beings for eternity, when the Bible tells us that the Devil himself and his angels (demons) will have their part in the lake of fire and also will eventually BURN UP?