Hell: Eternal Torment Or Annihilation?

[LA-girl]

Originally Posted by LA-girl

Let me illustrate this with an example:In the Bible, we are given an example of what hell will be like. "As Sodom] and Gomorrah and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7. God has frequently taught us what future events will be like by giving an example which occurred during the old covenant. Hellfire is just one example of this.

 

ADMIRAL THRAWN:

 

The fire symbolically reflected how hell was like. However, we seem to be in agreement that the fire of hell is eternal, where we disagree is whether the experience of torment or suffering is in itself also eternal, or is it temporary to the individual experiencing torment.

 

But the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah may still be burning today under eternal flame.

 

LA-GIRLS ANSWER:

 

Did God say that the inhibitants of S & G would continue to burn?? If God meant they would continue to burn after they had turned into ashes, he would say so! If they continued to burn he would not say that Sodom and Gomorrah was set forward as an example. That would mean that he tried to trick us! Not to mention all the verses who speak out plainly that in the end everything will be gone, burnt up! Why would god say bunt up, in stead of continue to burn?

 

Where does it say it was symbolic?? It says it was put forward as an example of how God will deal with the wicked! Everybody knows what a flame is, if the flame itself should reflect how hell would be like, God would just say so, he would not have to bring forward Sodom and Gomorra as an example to do that! When God says this is an example, he meant it! In the Bible it says that Sodom and Gomorra burned with an eternal fire, but we all know that eventually everything burnt up!

Also the verse where it saus that all EVIL, sinners and the devil will be burnt up, devour, perish,turn to ashes!

 

No we are not in agreement that the hell-fire is eternal. The fire will not be quenched, as in nobody will be able to PUT OUT the fire, so nobody will be able to escape it. This is to ensure us that ALL EVIL will eventually BURN UP! There will be nothing evil left in the universe...only good things will be left! THE FIRE WILL BURN AND BURN UNTIL THE END OF ALL ALL EVIL! Like I have told you, sometimes in the Bible the word forever does not mean into ceaseless ages, but rather until the end of...until there is nothing evil left! However the RESULT of the fire is ETERNAL. All the sinners will after their judgement, which include varying degrees of suffering depending on their works, CONSUME; DEVOUR; PERISH; BURN UP, DIE THE SECOND DEATH!!!!

 

What better, more direct words could God use in order to explain and insure us that ONE DAY ALL EVIL WILL BE COMPLETELY GONE AND NEVER EVER RETURN!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by LA-girl

The story of Sodomand Gomorrah in the book of Genesis, is not just an historical story, but an example of what will be in the future as well. We are told that Sodom and Gomorrah are set forth as an example of eternal fire. The story is a familiar one; because of the great wickedness of the cities in the plain, God "rained brimstone and fire on [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens." Genesis 19:24. We are told that this was "eternal fire," but are Sodom] and Gomorrah] still burning today? Of course not. Everyone knows that the fires of ]Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and ]Gomorrah have gone out years ago. You cannot visit a site in the Middle East and have the tour guide tell you that it is the eternally burning fires of Sodom and Gomorrah[]. We don't know exactly how long the fires burnt, but we do know that they finally went out. How then could it be eternal fire? The results were eternal. Never again have the cities of ]Sodom] and [/FONT][]Gomorrah[/] been rebuilt. It was an eternally consuming fire. It consumed every last object and then, when there was nothing more to burn, the fires went out. "And turning the cities of Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and/Gomorrah[/FONT=Arial] into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making then an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;" II Peter 2:6. Peter adds the detail that [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Gomorrah[/FONT][FONT=Arial] were turned into ashes. Ashes according the [FONT=Arial]Webster's New World Dictionary[/FONT] is defined as, "the substance remaining after a thing has been burned." Ashes do not burn. Ashes are what is leftover after something has already been burned. It can clearly be seen from the Bible that [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Sodom[/FONT][FONT=Arial] and [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Gomorrah[/FONT][FONT=Arial] are not still burning, but that "God destroyed the cities of the plain."

[LA-girl]

ADMIRAL THRAWN:

 

Like I have quoted from the Bible, the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet are the only two inhabitants of the hell-fire BEFORE the 1000 year millenium.

 

I've quoted a chapter and verse in Revelation where it said that, I dont have a bible with me right now, but please look at my prior posts.

 

 

I GUESS YOU REFER TO THIS VERSE?

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

Yes anti-Christ and the false prophet are cast into a lake of fire and the remant were slained and killed. It doesn't say here that they continued to burn until the judgement day. To me it seems as though all were killed and died. Satan on the other hand is not getting killed, he is bound because now that everybody is dead or in heaven he can not decieve anyone during the millennium.

 

Think about this: According to your theory all humans are thrown in "hell" to be tortured after they die. Then all of the sudden during the 1000-years millennium they suddenly die and are dead for 1000 years? Then after the millennium the devil and the dead will be judged and all cast into the lake of fire that will burn forever?

 

If you don't mind me asking: what would be the point if humans first go to hell to be tortured and then they die for 1000 years just to wake up to be thrown into ceaseless ages of torment in the lake of fire???

 

Why call it JUDGEMENT DAY when they are already judged and punished before that day? It makes no sense!

 

Not to mention, that according to this theory, Satan would be the one who would be punished the least out of all! He is the one who should be punished for the longest period of time! According to your theory humans who died for only comitting one sin 6000 years ago would be punished longer than the Devil!

 

ADMIRAL THRAWN:

 

However, if people vary in the amount they are kept alive in hell, then it follows that they are not really instantly consumed, toasted and dead by hell-fire as you have originally stated - so the fire doesn't kill them, but rather God's decision on how long they live.

 

That's is how I'm understanding what you are saying, and you can correct me if I'm wrong. However, if somone is not instantly 'burned up' then it would seem like you are contradicting yourself - they are kept alive over a length of time doesn't sound like someone is being burned up - it sounds like prolonged torture where people could be concious for a lenght of time, rather than just being burned up as you originally claimed.

 

LA-GIRL:

 

I have (according to the Bible) stated that in the end everyone will burn up. But I have also told you that there will be a varying degree of length/intensity depending on their deeds. This is to ensure us that those who have been very evil, but has died without being punished for their crimes, will get their fair punishment on the day of judgement. God can not give us an exact time-length of how long they will burn, because they will probably burn different length of time before they all devour, consume.

 

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I HAVE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF THE WICKED; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" (Ezekiel 33,11)

Here we see that GOD HIMSELF ask us to tell all that he does not have any pleasure in the death of the wicked! Why should he then have pleasure in seing screaming, suffering people in torture for eternity!!! GOD IS NOT LIKE THAT!!!!!!!!!

[flavius]

Dang, LA, that took some WORK! Quite impressive at that. But I fear it will not persuade. The Admiral believes that this system of scriptural interpretation is not only valid, but is in fact equivalent with The Word itself. Thus he will happily perform unending rational contortions to conform the Biblical record to this complex of preformulated conclusions.

 

I too developed that same skill over many years, and like the Admiral, I became deeply devoted to it because I was just so darned good at it. I was so enamored with how I could maintain the internal consistency of my arguments that I just assumed that they also had external validity. I could not hear my own silliness, because it harmonized so nicely with my vanity.

 

God peeled back enough of my pride to show me that my practice of faith was really all about being Right, not about being Faithful. I was a neo-Pharisee who "heaped great burdens on the peoples' backs but would not lift a finger to help lift them." I rejoiced in the burdens because I was such an expert in "burden-management."

 

Was Jesus subtle in his condemnation of the scribes, lawyers, and pharisees? Then why do we scramble to become their successors? It is foolish to read the wonderful words of Life as if they were a legal document! How does it differ from what the Scribes, Pharisees, and Essenes did in Jesus day? Did they not all miss the Kingdom of God, each while striving to realize it? How foolish and arrogant to think we will enter the Kingdom in the same way they rejected it! No, it was the sinners, the foolish, and the meek who found their way to Jesus' embrace, entering like little children.

 

There is an army of people out there who subscribe to Darbian Dispensationalism (most of whom have never heard of Darby) who believe its tenets are not only in sync with the scripture, but actually believe its tenets ARE the framework of scripture and even of the Universe itself.

 

Unfortunately this puts Dispensationalism, a theoretical construct of Man, in the place of The Word who became flesh and dwelt a while among us.

 

Too bad. Jesus is way more than a system of parsing information. If these folks were as passionate about being Christ's ambassadors as they are passionate about being Correct, mankind would see much more of God's Kingdom.

 

"Grace and Truth came through Jesus Christ." But even that fact, once subjected to the Dispensationalist screed, is reduced to a needle's eye through which God's called ones must wriggle. "Woe to you lawyers who have the key, but hinder those who would enter."

 

There is a point at which the servant of Christ must quit the endless process of slicing, dicing, parsing, summarizing, systematizing, and pulverizing. Time comes when the true-hearted servant needs to just shut up and let The Man talk. Hear the word of the Lord.

[Admiral Thrawn]

LA-GIRLS ANSWER:

 

God will make sure that the punisment, either the intensity or lenght of suffering in the flames will vary depending on the sinners evil works.

 

 

Alright, so you agree a varience of intensity could compensate for length in degree of damnation then. I would always say, that people are punished differently in hell depending on their deeds on earth and I think that's a fact that we can both agree on. Where we would disagree is whether the differences of damnation translate into the length of time spend in hell, or the intensity of punishment in hell if one is staying there eternally. Since you have allowed for the possibility that intensity of punishment could vary to someone who is there eternally and still be fair, then I dont think there is any contention.

 

Your talking about harrassment from surrounding monsters.

I guess you have heard Bill Wiese and or Mary K- Baxters "visit" to hell. I have read it myself, and first I believed what they said. I still believe they had these visions, BUT I am convinced they did NOT come from God, but from the devil himself. WHY? Because this is how he wants us to picture God, like a tyrant who would allow his own creation suffer torment for eternity. It says in the Bible that the devil will perform many MAGIC TRICKS and DECEIVE MANY, including the very ELECT!! Satan will even impersonate JESUS Christ himself and appears as an ANGEL OF LIGHT! The weird thing with these stories where people say that they have visited hell, they all contradict eachother and also the Bible. What are we going to base our theory on, THE BIBLE or visions we do not know who is responsible for?

 

Well, we'd have to review all these stories on a case by case basis. I personally have not read all of them, but I do know there are some obvious common themes, such as fire, smoke, wailing, which are all in the bible. It is also clear that humans, fallen angels and demons end up in hell together, and as demons and fallen angels are monsters, people are staying there with all sorts of evil creatures.

 

Here's an example of one of the nasty inhabitants of hell as based on Revelation 9:2-3 "And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were dearkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

 

And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power...

 

vs. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

 

vs 6 ...And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

 

In summation of the above, there is at least one monster in hell - scorpion-like entity, that has come out of the bottom-less pit for a season to harass the inhabitants of this planet who took the mark of the anti-christ.

 

The torment is so bad that people want to die, but seem to either lack the will or are restrained from committing mass suicide as a result of the release of those creatures (a mystery that I do not understand, because I always assume if people on earth want to commit suicide, they can just commit suicide - unless the anti-christ has done something to the minds of the people who took the mark, so they are programmed like robots and cant kill themselves or something - who knows, but one can speculate).

 

 

Second of all, how can these gigantic monsters which obviously are EVIL DEMONS torture human-beings for eternity, when the Bible tells us that the Devil himself and his angels (demons) will have their part in the lake of fire and also will eventually BURN UP?

 

Just because something is burning up doesn't mean that it is going to die. It's reconcilable that something could burn up indefinately, and perpetually.

How do you know that the spiritual laws or spiritual universe is analogous to the laws of physics, if no scientist has been to hell to analyse how things burn up in there and how long it takes to burn up? Suppose all the laws as we understand the physical universe are different in those dimensions? So, burning up may not mean burning up in a physical sence - it's a spiritual fire, and spiritual matter - both untested by science.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Originally Posted by LA-girl

Did God say that the inhibitants of S & G would continue to burn?? If God meant they would continue to burn after they had turned into ashes, he would say so! If they continued to burn he would not say that Sodom and Gomorrah was set forward as an example. That would mean that he tried to trick us! Not to mention all the verses who speak out plainly that in the end everything will be gone, burnt up! Why would god say bunt up, in stead of continue to burn?

 

The bible says the wicked dead will appear before the Great White Throne Judgement and will be cast into the lake of fire afterwards. It also suggests that in the mean-time, they are in hell awaiting the Great White Throne Judgement.

 

What I am saying is the bible doesn't specifically mention the fate of the people who got burned up in Sodom and Gommorah other than what we know to be the general fate of all wicked people who have ever lived.

 

It's true that physically, they all died, and obviously, they would be punished in the after-life again as well, which is why the allusions to an eternal fire means a spiritual fire, not a physical one.

 

Where does it say it was symbolic?? It says it was put forward as an example of how God will deal with the wicked! Everybody knows what a flame is, if the flame itself should reflect how hell would be like, God would just say so, he would not have to bring forward Sodom and Gomorra as an example to do that! When God says this is an example, he meant it! In the Bible it says that Sodom and Gomorra burned with an eternal fire, but we all know that eventually everything burnt up!

 

But punishment of the wicked in the Bible by God is not alluded to the fact that they just 'die'. What happened in Sodom and Gommorah is that they all got burned up by some temporary fire, but in a spiritual sence, the fire is still there on all those inhabitants, in hell. The 'eternal' fire means what occurred physically, will continue to persist spiritually as well.

 

No we are not in agreement that the hell-fire is eternal. The fire will not be quenched, as in nobody will be able to PUT OUT the fire, so nobody will be able to escape it. This is to ensure us that ALL EVIL will eventually BURN UP! There will be nothing evil left in the universe...only good things will be left! THE FIRE WILL BURN AND BURN UNTIL THE END OF ALL ALL EVIL! Like I have told you, sometimes in the Bible the word forever does not mean into ceaseless ages, but rather until the end of...until there is nothing evil left! However the RESULT of the fire is ETERNAL. All the sinners will after their judgement, which include varying degrees of suffering depending on their works, CONSUME; DEVOUR; PERISH; BURN UP, DIE THE SECOND DEATH!!!!

 

Right, but is it theologically accurate to suggest that the cessation of life is implied with the term 'death'. There are other schools of thought that would suggest that death means seperation, not the sessation of life.

 

Physical death is seperation of mind-spirit-soul from it's physical body containment.

 

Spiritual death is seperation of mind-soul-spirit from God - where the resultant place would be hell.

 

Take Adam for example, God said, if they ate the fruit they shall surely die, did they die after eating the fruit? No. They were seperated from God and lost their innosence. In a sence, they died spiritually, and then died physically afterwards, but if death were taken in a literal sence, then they simply would have ceased to exist after eating the fruit, which is NOT what happened.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Yes anti-Christ and the false prophet are cast into a lake of fire and the remant were slained and killed. It doesn't say here that they continued to burn until the judgement day. To me it seems as though all were killed and died. Satan on the other hand is not getting killed, he is bound because now that everybody is dead or in heaven he can not decieve anyone during the millennium.

 

The remnant that are slained and killed have one thing in common.

 

They all have worshipped the beast and received his mark.

 

What does the Bible say about ANYONE who worships the beast and receives their mark.

 

Rev 14:10-11 - I quote vs 11.."And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoseoever receiveth the mark of his name."

 

That sounds like more than just being slain and killed - and further more, it's not a 'remant' it's the armies of the Anti-Christ going against the remnant Israel who are following God, and they aren't slain.

 

Think about this: According to your theory all humans are thrown in "hell" to be tortured after they die. Then all of the sudden during the 1000-years millennium they suddenly die and are dead for 1000 years? Then after the millennium the devil and the dead will be judged and all cast into the lake of fire that will burn forever?

 

No. They are thrown in hell and are tortured, their physical bodies are obviously dead so they are bodiless. At the end of the 1000 years, their physical bodies are ressurected, or composed to whatever it was originally, by decree of God, and they appear before the White Throne Judgement.

 

 

Why call it JUDGEMENT DAY when they are already judged and punished before that day? It makes no sense!

 

It's sort of like going to jail awaiting trial I suppose, but this time, you are already guilty before you go to trial.

[Nicholas]

Now, the arguements AGAINST this theology so far have been dissappointing. If you are knocking the Bible, that's easy to do here, but when you are faced with the after-life, and where you are in the next life, if you are in the wrong place, then are you going to knock it there too?

 

Absolutely. For as long as my soul, mortal or otherwise, is governed by rational thought, I will remain a critical thinker. If God wanted it otherwise, he would not have given me a heart that can love and a mind that can know.

 

You neglect love and knowledge if you maintain that only your interpretation of scripture and Christ's ministry can lead to heaven, and it's the only route thereto. You're raising the Bible, which is not without historical blemish (it's merely the sum of politically charged debates at the Council of Nicea less than 1600 years ago, it was not a golden book handed to us by God--even the books themselves need to be interpreted in context of who wrote them and why they did so), to a divine status. I shouldn't have to remind you that is idolatry.

 

Seriously, if you like to make a theological statement and argue against what I'm saying, please use the Bible and bring up verses that counter my theological prspective - if you want to argue about God's character being inconsistent with this theology - go right ahead. Nicolious has not said anything that makes sence.

 

If there's a specific part of my post you did not understand, send me a PM or post it here and I'll clarify it's meaning. Frankly, I think it's in perfect English, and if it's difficult for you to understand than I question your ability to read and interpret the KJV as well.

 

Also, I refuse your challenge to use scripture as some kind of debate weapon. The logical inconsistency of using scripture to counter the idea of scriptural supremacy in Christianity should be obvious.

 

God is not crazy - the fact is, He gave dominion or authority to humans over the earth - that means humans have to pray to get things done, because God can not circumvent that authority.

 

The sum of scripture, which you profess a strong devotion to, makes it clear that nothing is impossible with God. You, however, have dumbed down God in attempt to make a point. Some would call that using God's name in vain, but I'll not judge you.

 

Regardless, God is not God if is power is limited. You seem to paint a picture of nothing more than a mischevious ghost drawing his power from prayers. If God is not all-powerful, then he doesn't have the power to control where our soul ends up when we die. If he is, then he doesn't suffer the convenient limitations you put on him.

 

Christians have a similar responsibility to spread the word, and if anyone falls through the cracks due to ignorance, similarly they are responsibile.

 

I would agree. However, there are two concerns that come with this belief.

 

(1) At what point does the human authority end in spreading that word?

 

Gospel writers, who composed their Gospels much after the death of Christ, gathered together anecdotal evidence of Christ's life and ministry for the purpose of creating a document that would carry on his message, especially to people who did not already believe in God. Is it sinful, or even possible, that they could have embellished or added a distinct literary quality (requiring a certain degree of beneath-the-surface analysis) to those texts? If God truly does not interfere with human actions, whether through a lack of power as you assert, or just because he has a laissez faire attitude towards humanity, then he would be powerless to stop a Gospel writer from including a doctrine that was essentially not part of the divine truth. It would have also been possible for the Ecumenical Councils that decided which Gospels were valid and which were not to overlook certain inconsistencies in Christ's message if they suited the spread of Christianity--for example, the doctrine that an outwardly professed belief in Jesus is the only way to avoid Hell.

 

You cannot deny this without making a fool of yourself. Which brings me to my second concern.

 

(2) What if Christians are doing more harm than Good?

 

Often times Christians are seen as ignorant zealots, at least in modern-day America. There is also a victim-complex that goes along with Christ's promise to raise the downtrodden up, a complex that would encourage someone who was being censured for outward displays of ignorance in the name of God. They would consider this "persecution" and would be convinced that they were trying in earnest to spread the word of God, instead of just vainly promoting their own piety.

 

Essentially, Jesus had a message that promoted love and condemned legalism. It was then up to us to repackage that message to get others on board. If some package it unattractively, they are being more exclusive than inclusive, and they are actually doing more harm than good to the spread of Christianity, as well as misinterpreting it themselves. Yeah? If God's modern-day Public Relations footsoldiers are only preaching to a limited audience of "true Christians" (Read: People who already think like them, or people who are mentally inclined to accept their packaging of it) then they're not spreading God's word at all.