Pain, progress, and confusion

[Guest]

man, no wonder u are confused and can't move on.

 

your post confused me too.

 

u spend way to much time thinking about history.

 

is that all there is to your life?

[KittenMoon]

My ex instant messaged me tonight- I waited a bit and replied. We just had a long chat. I didn't really like doing it over IM but in some ways it was better not to have to interpret his facial expressions.

 

I'm not sure if anything was accomplished. He's sounds so weird when I talk to him. Like he's in so much pain and he hates hurting me, but nothing in the situation has changed. This is maybe the mpst pertinent part of the conversation:

 

Me: I think that we both miss each other a lot, but in reality neither of us wants to be in a relationship with each other right now, but we're not really friends either, and I think it's going to take time for things to resolve themselves

Him: will you talk to me again sometime

Me: does what I just said come close at all to how you feel or am i totally off

Him: i guess yes, it is very close

Me: ok- yes I will talk to you again sometime, but please be very aware of the things you say to me and how they will affect me- please try to remember that I am more emotional than I think you will ever be

 

 

He's maybe taking a job several states away. He asked me what I thought about it and I said it didn't matter what I thought any more and he didn't respond to that. Also, the same time I was panicking because I thought he avoided me at the party, it turned out he had been hurt badly because he thought he saw me through the window when he dropped the guys off. But it wasn't me I told him. He couldn't have seen me from the angle. He also agreed to see me before the wedding if he ends up going, but he asked to do it a few days before because he would be "devastated" again. I was going to ask for the same thing.

 

I still don't quite get what he wants from me. I told him I wasn't ready to forgive him for a lot of things and he said he didn't think I'd ever forgive him. I don't know. I hate it so much that he's leaving. I don't want to lose him but at the same time I don't want to keep him. Maybe someday if he matures more. But I don't even know anymore if he thinks we'll ever have another chance, if his feelings for me will ever come back. He's already said we might have a chance, a long time from now, so I guess I can't push it anymore. Like the infamous CG says, I have to "let him miss me". And I have to see if in the months from now I even miss him.

 

But I feel so sick because I don't want him to see other girls. I know it's not my choice, and in the long run, it shouldn't even matter, but it does to me. My only consolation is that he said the job he might be taking was 100% travel and that leaves a lot of time for thinking but not for meeting girls. I'm just going to miss him so much. He's so much in my heart I just can't stand it sometimes.

 

I am slightly concerned that he's weaning himself off me inadvertently- that we'll talk for a while and sooner or later he'll realize he doesn't care about talking to me anymore.

 

So, I'm still going to write him a letter, because at least I know now he's not shunning my contact or avoiding me on purpose. This situation is not going to be over until after the wedding and I get my stuff and he leaves so if I'm not really going to be able to heal i might as well try to be constructive.

 

I still feel so tangled up and like i've lost the happiest part of my life.

[In Sync]

KM,

This is excellent progress. You two really communicated, things go said ...now you can take it one day at a time. Be grateful for this turn of events. Don't go starting a whole new set of worries. This is a hell of a lot better than trying to figure out what's going on in his head. Now you can step back and focus on you. In the meanwhile the door to communication has been opened. Well done.

[KittenMoon]

It still hurts because he's still going to leave, he still says his feelings have changed, and I still miss him. It was beneficial in the long run I hope.

[In Sync]

well of course you will miss him because you still love him..but perhaps this is for the best in the long run. If he's not going to give you what you want out of a relationship then ahnging on o false hopes, fears of him moving on are only going to cripple you emotionally...keep the doors open and talk to one another...eventually you will see whether this is beneficial or more harmful but limit obsessing over the unknown. Accept the fact you you two were able to communicate.

[shelters]

KM, I think you are handling this amazingly and really achieving that fine balancing act of taking care of yourself while breaking NC when it is necessary for YOU.

 

I also wanted to isolate out part of your post below removing the parts that you wrote and leaving only what your ex responded with. I don't have the rest of the convo, but I don't get much 'pertinent' stuff from his end.

 

This is maybe the mpst pertinent part of the conversation:

 

 

Him: will you talk to me again sometime

 

Him: i guess yes, it is very close

 

 

 

The above is not evidence that he absorbed what you were saying. I am highlighting it for you now only to keep in mind the next time you guys do talk, I'd suggest letting him do 90% of the talking. Anything you want to say, leave it for the letter. Do as much listening as you possibly can and when he contradicts himself, simply ask him if he can clarify or "I don't quite get what you are saying. Can you explain it a different way?"

 

Overall, very awesome to be having these opportunities AND having the awareness to recognize the importance of you guys both needing time to miss each other.

 

[KittenMoon]

KM, I think you are handling this amazingly and really achieving that fine balancing act of taking care of yourself while breaking NC when it is necessary for YOU.

 

I also wanted to isolate out part of your post below removing the parts that you wrote and leaving only what your ex responded with. I don't have the rest of the convo, but I don't get much 'pertinent' stuff from his end.

 

 

 

 

The above is not evidence that he absorbed what you were saying. I am highlighting it for you now only to keep in mind the next time you guys do talk, I'd suggest letting him do 90% of the talking. Anything you want to say, leave it for the letter. Do as much listening as you possibly can and when he contradicts himself, simply ask him if he can clarify or "I don't quite get what you are saying. Can you explain it a different way?"

 

Overall, very awesome to be having these opportunities AND having the awareness to recognize the importance of you guys both needing time to miss each other.

 

 

 

Yeah, I sorta realized that isolating that part of the converstation didn't show much from his end, but there was a lot more in the conversation as well. Here's a little more, from before we got to the point above:

 

Me: you're saying a lot of things to me that I can't quite put together

Him: my emotions are a bit high and you know my mind is a bit off so that is why its a bit disjoinede

Me: i know- but it keeps coming back to I don't know what you want from me, how you see me

Him: i dont know what i want i just cannot stand the pain of feeling like part of me is dead now that you are gone

 

 

I still don't know what he wants from me. He said he kept typing anf erasing, typing and erasing, so I am not sure he knows either at this point. That's why I said I think it will take time to resolve things into something we can work with. It's hard to know someone misses you a lot, but doesn't want to be with you, and while I kinda get it, I don't at the same time.

 

Oh, and I asked him a few things that seemed to anger him, at which point I backed off and said "I don't want to fight" and he said he actually missed our fighting.... what? I'm not quite sure how we can break up because of our fighting and yet he misses that. Don't get it... but I'm trying.

[shelters]

I still don't know what he wants from me. He said he kept typing anf erasing, typing and erasing, so I am not sure he knows either at this point. That's why I said I think it will take time to resolve things into something we can work with. It's hard to know someone misses you a lot, but doesn't want to be with you, and while I kinda get it, I don't at the same time.

 

 

 

I totally get where you are coming from. Totally. I have similar confusion with my ex. The last time we got together (weeks ago now) he was upset... face beet red, voice shaky, eyes even got watery at one point (and he is so not a cryer)... this physical stuff happened to him as he started to talk about how misses me so much but believes my commitment issues should have lessened not worsened if he was "the one" for me.

 

Oh and about a week or so before that I got an email similar to your "hey." It had no subject title and the body of the email simply contained one sentence: "why did we come into each others lives?"

 

Um, WTF???

 

SO not meaning to hijack your thread. Just wanted to give you some specific examples of how I really can relate to your situation.

 

...

 

I still think when you get together you should let him do most of the talking. Get as much out of him as you can even if it is one confusing convo where every fifth sentence contradicts his first. Take it all in and absorb later. Keep your end limited to asking questions so that he is forced to continue to talking (and you forced to continue listening). You always have your letter for your thoughts. Plus, a letter is a fixed message he can keep referring to rather than his memory that will change over time of what you said to him in person.

 

 

ps- About the fighting. My guess would be that he respects your opinion and a great relationship involves both partners challenging the other. I'd say, if he misses your 'fighting' he doesn't sound 100% immature. At least he is not one of those guys that just wants a kiss ass for a gf.

[KittenMoon]

I totally get where you are coming from. Totally. I have similar confusion with my ex. The last time we got together (weeks ago now) he was upset... face beet red, voice shaky, eyes even got watery at one point (and he is so not a cryer)... this physical stuff happened to him as he started to talk about how misses me so much but believes my commitment issues should have lessened not worsened if he was "the one" for me.

 

Oh and about a week or so before that I got an email similar to your "hey." It had no subject title and the body of the email simply contained one sentence: "why did we come into each others lives?"

 

Um, WTF???

 

SO not meaning to hijack your thread. Just wanted to give you some specific examples of how I really can relate to your situation.

 

...

 

I still think when you get together you should let him do most of the talking. Get as much out of him as you can even if it is one confusing convo where every fifth sentence contradicts his first. Take it all in and absorb later. Keep your end limited to asking questions so that he is forced to continue to talking (and you forced to continue listening). You always have your letter for your thoughts. Plus, a letter is a fixed message he can keep referring to rather than his memory that will change over time of what you said to him in person.

 

 

ps- About the fighting. My guess would be that he respects your opinion and a great relationship involves both partners challenging the other. I'd say, if he misses your 'fighting' he doesn't sound 100% immature. At least he is not one of those guys that just wants a kiss ass for a gf.

 

I tried to stick to asking questions- there were definitely some points he tried to bolt from the conversation (with the usual "you don't sound like you want to talk to me" or "I'm sorry to drag you into this conversation") and I'd back off again. It's not just that I want to know what he wants from me, but I don't understand what he wants from any personal relationship, including friends. He only seems to be able to deal with the "easy" aspects of interpersonal relationships, when everyone is at a comfortable distance. His sudden shunning of people has led to so much akwardness that had no reason to exist, and he STILL doesn't grasp all the things that upset me, or how insensitive some of the things he said were. I want him to realize these things, how can I have any level of relationship with someone who simply cannot grasp what's an appropriate response to emotional situations?

 

Anyways, it's hard to have him ask me my opinion on things, like his job. He rarely seemed to be interested in my opinions before- i often "disagreed" with him, in that we both agreed on the desired outcome of a situation, but our paths to get there were very different as we saw the world in different terms. For example, when his business deal was occuring, I was constantly aware of how his partners were acting and treating him and the situation and how the person they were dealing with was acting (I saw many red flags of manipulation, etc) while he felt that the only thing that mattered were the physical occurences, that legal forms and business decisions were the most important aspects.

 

I suppose it's very accurate to say he sees the world in a physical manner and I see it more emotionally. How much of this is a gender issue is something I wonder about...

 

Ok, I'm getting off on a tangent. I'm too tired and my eyes are annoyingly puffy.

 

But thanks shelters, every time i see you post I"m like- yay! shelters!

[shelters]

I think (for both of our situations) only time will make the confusion less. Either your ex will become less confused (he probably can't answer most of your questions b/c he has no answers himself) OR he will continue to avoid the questions/friends/you and after a certain amount of time of him continuing to do that you will have your answers anyway.

 

Here's to 'time.' *raises glass*

[KittenMoon]

Tonight is rough so I just wanted to post. I feel so sad, but I can't cry. You ever get that ache that's so deep, but at the same time you just can't get it out? I put on a movie that always makes me cry but it's taking too long to get to the sad parts.

 

I keep thinking of my ex. Then I try to trick myself into thinking of loving a better person, trying to imagine their qualities. Even at the most abstract, the qualities end up being what my ex had. How can SO many things be right, and only a few, albeit important things be wrong?

 

I guess I just can't get past the fact that he says he's "lost the feelings he had around me" and yet he did nothing to try to fix our relationship. Just let it go. What is he going to do when he gets married? When the passion finally fades is he going to divorce (not like him) or just suffer quietly until he dies?

 

I'm so sad and I miss the good times so much. I feel like I'll never find anyone who fulfilled so many of my desires in a mate. As angry as he makes me, I wish I could just hate him..... but I can't.

 

Ug, I need something good to happen in my life, and soon.

 

I'm exercising. I see my friends. I'm trying to work on my writing to keep my mind off things, but all I wanna do is sit and watch tv and I just feel lower and lower.

[shelters]

KM, sorry to hear you were having one of those days yesterday. It is raining here today which I think only adds to these sort of lows.

 

Has he ever tried to explain what changed on his end?

[KittenMoon]

KM, sorry to hear you were having one of those days yesterday. It is raining here today which I think only adds to these sort of lows.

 

Has he ever tried to explain what changed on his end?

 

 

His "feelings changed", he "hasn't lusted after me" in a long time, and a few lame-o reasons such as "I don't like the same foods" (bs) and "I'm afraid to fly so I'll never travel" (and that tour of Europe I've talked since before I knew was just me talking to hear myself?)

 

I don't even think he can fathom what it is he feels or why he feels it at this point. That's another reason I am so hurt.

[shelters]

Was this just a natural phasing out or did someone stir the pot? Not necessarily another girl, but another co-worker, friend, etc.

[KittenMoon]

Was this just a natural phasing out or did someone stir the pot? Not necessarily another girl, but another co-worker, friend, etc.

 

He had a female friend that I think acted as a catalyst to already occuring emotions. They got along really well, she joined our group of friends, we became friends, but my ex was always jumping to defend her from her crappy now-ex-boyfriend, hanging out with her (with me not there but others present), etc etc. In my mind, she was an example to him that there were other girls out there.

 

Now, I let him know all my concerns with how he was becoming distant with me and treating her really nice (he was playing knight in shining armor all the freakin time). She is basically an attention whore and I kept trying to explain to him that by jumping to her attention, he was simply allowing her to avoid dealing with her own issues. (She's an utter mess, she used to be really depressed, used to be a pathological liar- she's grown out of a lot of this but she's still so depserate for attention)

 

Anyways, our friends all thought she was an attention whore and since our break-up no one's had anything to do with her. She still hangs out with my ex, but she's a total tag-a-long too and I bet if she finds a new beau she'll disappear most of the time.

 

Nothing happened between them before the break-up, and nothing has happened since. Both have swore to me nothing happened and nothing WILL happen. I know she's has pursued another guy since (which a whole 'nother can of worms- it was a guy she met at a party we were all at, who she texted and talked everyday with for WEEKS, the whole time casually negelcting to mention she had a bf at the time- my ex is a naive f***ing moron and is totally ignorant to her manipulations)

 

Just last weekend at the bachelor party my ex swore to the guys it wasn't like that, never was, she was just a friend. But she still came between us on some level and he just refused to acknowledge my concerns as legitimate. I feel betrayed even though I wasn't technically. Now she can hang with him all she wants and I can't.

 

He says he misses my company, says he still hurts, still wants to talk to me, hopes we can hang out someday, etc. Even that he misses our fights?!! So I don't get what these feelings he "lost" actually are. I'm angry about it a lot.

 

There was a lot of stagnation in our relationship though- it got to the point that just about anythign was causing friction. The difference was that I was willing to work on things and he wasn't.

[GB111]

Hi Kitten,

 

I'm so sorry to hear you are going through this. By reading other posts you have made, you seem like a very strong person. I consider myself the same, but it's amazing how these situations can break you down in to a floundering mess.

 

Let me see if I can give you a guys perspective. I apologize in advance as I certainly mean no disrespect, but I do think you're hurting yourself unnecessarily. Also, I'm sure you've seen much of this before. It isn't brain surgery, just very difficult.

 

In my opinion, he's darn close to considering reconciliation. He probably doesn't have anyone else, but he's window shopping. In the meantime, as long as you're still there, he will continue his window shopping. Guys LOVE to have woman at their beck and call. It's a HUGE ego boost, and the guy never has to make any commitment. I'm sure he's chewing your IMs, emails, letters, calls, texts, etc. and building himself in to a prince.

 

Let me be clear that he probably isn't doing this to be cruel or nasty. It's just nice to know someone is there. I'm disgusted to say that I did this to a woman several years ago. She would show up at my house in tears, I'd comfort her, and send her on her merry way, but I NEVER changed my mind. I knew I had her. In the meantime, I met someone else. Now, her and I are friends, and reconciliation is possible, but right now, we're just friends.

 

I know NC may be difficult to impossible for you, so my suggestion would be that you increase your level of indifference, as hard as it may be. If he says "Going out tonight with friends" say "Great. Have a good time". Don't feed in to his attempts to get an ego boost. When he asks something about the relationship, don't tell him you miss him. If you must say something about missing him, say "ya, we had some great times together". I wouldn't say anything about the future. While subtle, believe me, he'll get the message. He's reading your IMs as closely as you are, trust me.

 

I firmly believe that if he is ever going to come back, it's not going to be until he thinks you don't care whether he does or not. I say that from personal experience and from a man's inherent point of view.

 

Good news is that he's still communicating on a pretty personal level. That's really good news. I didn't even give my ex that much to work with. If I'm honest with myself, and I've said this to many friends, if she had walked away somewhere in that year she pined over me, I would probably be with her now. I know that's ugly, but it's the truth.

 

You actually have quite a bit of control over this situation as I believe he still loves you, and probably wants to be with you, unless he can find something better before losing you. I wouldn't give him that opportunity.

 

Hang in there Kitten. I hope this helps on some level...

 

Best Wishes,

 

GB

[sick of it]

kitten moon....we should talk. me ex did the same thing. some old friend came back into the picture. she swore to me that he was just a friend (a girl with a penis) nothing was happening.....5.5yrs down the drain. she with him now. my ex siad the same things to me that yours is saying to you. i know how you feel i truly do. just wanted to let you know that theres someone here who understands completely.

[sick of it]

kitten moon....we should talk. my ex did the same thing. some old friend came back into the picture. she swore to me that he was just a friend (a girl with a penis is what she said) nothing was happening.....5.5yrs down the drain. she with him now. my ex siad the same things to me that yours is saying to you. i know how you feel i truly do. just wanted to let you know that theres someone here who understands completely.

[KittenMoon]

Well, GB and sick-

 

1) I don't think he's considering reconciliation or keeping me on a string. I think he is utterly confused and has begun to see me in a "mother" fashion. He's not a game player, he's just not that cunning. (If you knew him you'd agree) He lost passion for me, decided that meant the relationship shoud end, and that there is probably something better out there,

 

2) As to the other girl- he's doing his damned best to get a job just about anywhere else. He's possibly taking one in NJ. So he doesn't seem to have much romantic interest in EITHER of us. I swear if he could marry his career he would. Read some of my older posts and you'll see how his career was hitting a brick wall at the same time we were falling apart. He had a lot of problems in life and I was the easiest one to fix.

 

3) I was following NC for six weeks. HE broke it emailing me to see if I was ok, saying how he couldn't believe we had stopped talking, etc. When I didnt respond, we got into our previously posted IM talk. I don't intent to contact him again. He can talk to me.

[GB111]

Sorry Kitten. I must admit I didn't read through the entire thread. Sounds like you're doing all the right things. All I can say is that the fact that he's contacting you definitely means he is still thinking of you, and I kinda doubt that it's just in a "motherly" fashion. I'm sure he doubts his decision on some level.

 

The career thing is a pain. I went through that stage before I realized my personal life was far more important. He'll get there too, but it may be a few years.

 

Guess you need to think about pain vs. pleasure. If your conversations make you feel better, than go right ahead. If they cause you pain, don't do it. I'll tell you, I always thought that speaking to the ex was making me feel better, then after a few days, it just brought be back down again. Felt like being a drug addict. Immediate pleasure, but in the long run, a losing path.

 

Other than those thoughts, a psychologist or medicine for the anxiety are all I can suggest. I personally didn't like the medicine idea, but it worked wonders at the time. I know many people it's had a real significant impact for. I believe the threshold should be if it's having a material impact on your ability to live your life (ie: go to work, school, etc.) If it is, than you are really depressed and should see a professional.

 

Again, best of luck. I feel for you.

 

Regards,

 

GB

[2020vision]

Well KM,

 

I can sympathize with you. My ex is now living with his "friend", he is a piece of work. He also claims that his best friend since high school is a girl, whom he hardly ever hangs out with...Just likes the female attention. I used to hate her. He would talk to her about our problems then she would tell him that we shouldn't be together....Its his fault for listening to her advice over his "love" for me, but she did have a part in it.

 

I was following NC for six weeks. HE broke it emailing me to see if I was ok, saying how he couldn't believe we had stopped talking, etc. When I didnt respond, we got into our previously posted IM talk. I don't intent to contact him again. He can talk to me.

 

I hate random emails and random contact for that matter. I had to block him from my email like twice because I was weak and unblocked him...

 

Keeping in any sort of contact with the ex turns into a nasty cycle if it has no outcome of a reconilliation. Hang in there... I hope posting on LS and the replies you receive help you through this process.

[KittenMoon]

Well KM,

 

I can sympathize with you. My ex is now living with his "friend", he is a piece of work. He also claims that his best friend since high school is a girl, whom he hardly ever hangs out with...Just likes the female attention. I used to hate her. He would talk to her about our problems then she would tell him that we shouldn't be together....Its his fault for listening to her advice over his "love" for me, but she did have a part in it.

 

Strangely, I know she was trying to be very neutral in the whole process, though he was talking to her for advice. She is an advocate of the whole "does the good outweigh the bad" approach. Apparently, the bad won in his eyes (though there was nothing really all that bad about our relationship).

 

I hate random emails and random contact for that matter. I had to block him from my email like twice because I was weak and unblocked him...

 

Keeping in any sort of contact with the ex turns into a nasty cycle if it has no outcome of a reconilliation. .

 

I don't know WHAT to do about that. Leave it to me to date the guy who's totally un-guy-like. He a pretty simple guy who doesn't seem to see or grasp all the difficult levels of personal relationships. Reconcilliation? No idea. Moving on? No idea. Wants me as a friend? No idea. Does he have any idea? Probably not.

 

I've come to no other conclusion other than to deal with this day by day.

[shelters]

Hey KM, I'm so sorry I'm not around much today. It has been a crazy last two days to say the least (but nothing to do with the ex). I did want to point out quickly this part of GB's post:

 

 

The career thing is a pain. I went through that stage before I realized my personal life was far more important. He'll get there too, but it may be a few years.

 

 

He really hit the nail on the head. And you were right about taking it day by day. Your situation appears to be one of those stories where if it does work out it is going to be after a significant time has passed with you two on your own. What is "significant"? You got me.

 

My reaction to what you wrote about the other girl is to be a little distrustful of that situation- not necessarily meaning to be distrustful of something sexual going on, but I don't know if I would grant her such a "neutral" position in all this. Meaning, if she *is* an attention whore, what better situation than to no longer have to share him (emotionally) with you? So I'd put some money on her having slyly pointed out negatives to him when he was weighing the pros and cons.

 

Also, you don't know if advances were made on one side, but not reciprocated by the other. Overall, it sounds too toxic of a situation and yes, I think you are already doing this, but I'd wonder what does it say about him that right now he is attracted to her (energy).

 

 

He does have a lot of growing to do and one of the pluses of not being in contact is you won't have to sit there watching all the mistakes he has yet to make.

[KittenMoon]

 

My reaction to what you wrote about the other girl is to be a little distrustful of that situation- not necessarily meaning to be distrustful of something sexual going on, but I don't know if I would grant her such a "neutral" position in all this. Meaning, if she *is* an attention whore, what better situation than to no longer have to share him (emotionally) with you? So I'd put some money on her having slyly pointed out negatives to him when he was weighing the pros and cons.

 

Also, you don't know if advances were made on one side, but not reciprocated by the other. Overall, it sounds too toxic of a situation and yes, I think you are already doing this, but I'd wonder what does it say about him that right now he is attracted to her (energy).

 

 

Yeah, I know the sitch. Is this girl an attention whore who is manipulative? YES. Is she taking advantage of his friendship. YES. I saw it plenty of times. Is it a sexual thing? With fairly high certainty, no. I don't think my ex would point out to me that he's crying every sunday night (the night we'd usually just hang, watch TV, and I'd cook a nice homemade dinner for us), if he's started up a relationship with her. He's a lousy liar- he simply isn't creative enough or has a good enough memory to do it (there's that ADD and dyslexia thing again). If that was going on, I'd never hear another word from him.

 

Anywas, I'm just so sad still. I know I keep ruminating about it. I just feel like I want some happiness back and I just feel unsettled and anxious and depressed all the time.I just keep having to wait it out and it sucks because I have no patience.

[KittenMoon]

So I am spending another Friday night crying alone at home. I also denied to my mother that I was depressed and then turned around and told my friend I'm getting depressed. I hate being depressed- I went through it in highs school, until I went to college and met my ex, who made me really truly happy for the first time in my life. So it's not hard to see where the feelings are coming from and why they've shown up again. I know they'll pass, I just hope it's not years of misery this time.

 

ANYWAYS, the real reason I'm posted is that my ex has shown how stupid he is AGAIN. The same friend I mentioned has been emailing him, trying to get him to do a BBQ with our friends. He finally responds, saying that talking to me was nice the other day but he wasn't ready to be at a social occasion with me because things were still really tender.

 

Huh?

 

I just have to say I am amazed that my ex is SO VERY STUPID that he would think that our friends were trying to set up an event with both of us present. Can he not grasp that an event could take place w/o me being there??? I am baffled. I just had to say.