I hate porn :(

[catgirl1927]

Totally.

[Presario]

Sunseed,

 

There were magazines, yes (I remember them well, even fondly), but mags were concrete objects that you couldn't conceal from yourself or anyone else. Thus, using them was just that much more real and that much less private.

 

I think you are trying to justify it that you used to use such magazines. There have been pictures, magazines, erotic stories, night clubs and movies. Now the internet porn is a new thing.

 

Is there even one that opens with a celebration of porn? Are any wives or girlfriends saying how it's enriched their relationships so fabulously that they just had to write to tell all of us? Are any men stating that it's a useful tool for sexual expression that they are proud to have discovered as a marriage enhancer?

 

That's a very good point. I occassionally watch some porn, but I must admit that it does nothing good.

[ronnieromance]

Sunseed, women have been arguing your point with every new medium the nudie and sex pic has come in. The same things were said in the 80s about videoes and the magazines you look back on so fondly. If you think boys didn't do everything they could to hide them your'e buggin'. I don't know anyone who left their stash on the coffe table next to Popular Mechanics.

 

Basically you have whatever reasons you have to dislike it, but you're trying to make yourself a victim in the situation.

 

As for your ideas about what constitutes natural, that's a loaded word. What you argue as un-natural could just as easily, and probably more effectively be argued to the contrary.

 

I understand the average woman has a thing against porn. All men, for the most part, have come to that realization. Hence the "secrecy" of it.

 

The problem, to me isn't men looking at porn, but why men look at porn. Perhaps there was something lacking in your real life liasons to lead him into the cyber world.

 

 

 

-R-

[sunseed]

Hey there Presario,

 

I'd say you've made a good point, if I had anything to justify. But I don't. I don't feel guilty for the juvenile curiosity that led me to check out my friend's big brother's dirty mags, nor have I hurt any of my lovers through watching 3 goofy cable pornos with my friends when I was 14 (and female, as I remain). The point about the internet being a "new thing" is valid, but separate: Yes, in a sense it is simply an extension on the phenomenon of commericalized sex as you imply. But since it's SO available and SO MUCH MORE anonymous than the other venues you and I have mentioned, it is much less difficult to find and use, and much easier to hide from self and others. I think society would do well to acknowledge this point, because let's face it friends, when it comes to the internet, we are in our infancy.

 

Thank you though for noting the point about porn not doing anything useful though. I agree, it hasn't "helped" me in any way either. Sometimes I wonder how different my fantasy life would be today if it hadn't gotten in there. One good thing that's emerging from coming to terms with my husband's addiction is the very real possibility that I could develop a fantasy life that's a better fit to my values. Hope so.

 

Thank you also for taking the time to read all the way through my post. It was a long one, I know

[sunseed]

Hey Ronnie,

 

Women have been arguing this point with every new medium because with every new medium there comes a new set of trappings and questions. Shyuh. It affects all of us one way or another, and to assume that we don't need to discuss it would be foolish and shortsighted.

 

My husband's addiction to porn is his own volunteering and he's been trying to tell me about it for almost a year now. It's been a problem of HIS for nearly 15 years and is related to trauma in his past. Hence the "secrecy" and the crying I mentioned, but nice try blaming this one on women. I'm not a victim of his porning as such, but I did get hurt by his lies about it and his built-in fear of intimacy, which is what led him to use. (Not me, honey, or us together. I'll thank you not to make implications) If I stay with him I am faced with trust problems and that's daunting. Shyuh again. If you can't see that I'm not making myself a victim, then you're mistaking me for someone else and that is unhelpful to the debate.

 

I get the sense that you're a guy who's able, ar at least thinks he's able to handle porn without it hurting your relationships. And that's great--bravo. Do whatever makes you happy and I mean that. If you can combine porn and a relationship with no problems, I really, truly am happy for you. To reiterate a point I've already made, I do not believe that porn it is a problem for every person who's ever come into contact with it. I haven't seen enough evidence to make that argument.

 

But I would submit that it is unwise to assume that all guys are like you and can handle it. I don't assume all women are like me.

 

ps: for the purposes of my discussion: made by nature = natural. made by culture = artificial and therefore not natural. shyuh for the third time. See Lennox's last post for a more impassioned argument of the same point.

[honeybunch2k5]

Why is it in a guy's nature to be promiscuous? Many cultures agree that the woman is the more sexual person. I personally don't believe either sex is hornier, I think men are giving more permission to be whorish.

 

I don't think guys have a problem with women watching porn for this reason: many men who do porn are flat out effing ugly. It's probably not very threatening to a guy if his woman is looking at less-than-handsome men. But the women are porn are almost always beautiful and come with enhancement.

 

JMO.

 

I don't see why a guy needs to go out of his way to find women to jack off to.

[Trimmer]

Why is it in a guy's nature to be promiscuous? Many cultures agree that the woman is the more sexual person. I personally don't believe either sex is hornier, I think men are giving more permission to be whorish.

 

Ahhh, but now you're mixing the question of our nature vs our culture. (Remember, according to sunseed, natural=made by nature, and made by culture = artificial and therefore not natural.) The natural question of "why are men promiscuous" - why men are 'made by nature' to be promiscuous - is just as easy to answer as the question of why gibbons are generally monogamous, while gorillas are polygynous, with groups containing generally one adult male and multiple adult females. If they are, then they are. We, as human beings, have attempted to overcome millions of years of natural development with a few thousand years of cultural development, and with that in mind, we do pretty well at it, but asking why it is in our nature? Even being a relatively forward thinking guy, I don't have an answer for you. Those who propose the "evolutionary" model for male promiscuity will argue that it works best for males to spread our seed as broadly as possible, and for females to protect individual offspring as carefully as possible, but gee, the male gibbons do OK without that. (Note, I'm using primates as examples, to try to stay close to home...)

 

Anyway, the quesion of why men want to (and whether they should be allowed to) use artificial, made-by-culture porn isn't really informed a lot by the question of their true inner nature, then? Or is it?

 

Talk among yourselves...

[SadGreenEyes]

I had the same problem with my long term live in boyfriend of 2 years, however his source of "entertaining eye-candy" came from Victoria Secret magazines. I even spied him in the bathroom pleasing himself to them. Talk about feeling betrayed and cheated on!

I called him on it, asking him why on Earth are VS magazines under the bathroom sink? He said - I didnt even know they were there...uh huh...no Babe, the magazine fairy put them there when you werent looking...puhlease!

After noticing them still there, I didnt remove them, I did keep notice of which magazine was left on top. Well, wouldnt you know it, one day I noticed a Fredericks of Hollywood magazine on the top, as opposed to the VS one. I told him, you dont look at them huh? He said, No, why? I said, hmmmm, a different magazine was on top of the others, so I KNOW damn well you're looking at them and I know what you're doing with them!

He got so bent! He got embarrassed and then stormed into the bathroom and threw them violently into the hallway.

After a few hours of them lying there, I took them and hid them. I also ripped one of the mailing labels off and requested his name be taken off of the mailing list.

FYI, he's doing this and we're not having sex...nice huh?

Second treat - I went into his "private spot", his locked off apartment he has downstairs ( he lived downstairs from his Mom before she died). He spends a lot of time down there at all hours of the night. Curiosity got the best of me and I found the key to the room. I found hundreds of Playboys, VS magazines, porn tapes, and my ultimate favorite - Nude, I mean "obscene" nude pics of his ex fiance and ex girlfriends right smack next to his laptop.

I asked him what he does downstairs all night long. He says hes on his computer.

I love the fact that he's working on his computer and right there next to his mouse are naked pics of ex's within eye shot.

Makes me feel oh so wonderful and emotionally secure.

Trust me - if he knows you found out about the computer and the visited web sites, it's only a matter of time he finds another way of viewing "porn", whether its on his laptop that you dont have access to, or his work pc, or magazines. He could also be in chat rooms cybering.

If you're not comfortable with it, you better think long and hard about what you're gonna do and how you're gonna handle it, because, I hate to tell you...he'll keep doing it. It's not over.

Me? I think Im insane for dealing with this. Drives me crazy and has caused an enormous amount of resentment and constant suspiscion, 2 traits of which I sensed in your post. Im on antidepressants and have chosen to be oblivious to this, again, I dont know why. The sense of infidelity, insecurity, killing my ego and self esteem eat me up. It's only a matter of time before I bolt, I just dont know when.

I know I cant kid myself forever thinking Im "okay" with this.

Good Luck

[sunseed]

"...many men who do porn are flat out effing ugly."

 

lol! That is so true!

 

We women are just as wired to mess around as men, for exactly the same reasons guys are--to make nice babies--just from a different angle and at differing rates. We're trained from a young age to work at anything personal and guys aren't. (Typically.) This society as so many others just hands everything to the lads, and we ladies buy into it as well because we really haven't got much choice.

 

And lads don't recognize this, because it would be like a fish noticing how the water is. They're so inured to it that they aren't even aware of it.

[norajane]

I don't see why a guy needs to go out of his way to find women to jack off to.

 

That's just it - they don't have to go out of their way at all with internet porn!

 

Men masturbate whether they use porn to do it or just fantasize. You will never get a man to stop masturbating; that IS natural and all men do it. They don't all use porn to masturbate to, but many do because men do respond to visual stimulation. They like the variety of women and shapes and images and scenarios that they can easily find on the internet, and that's what they're responding to: the new erotic images each time.

 

Women masturbate too, and they also use porn, though it's often in the form of erotic stories (or some of those explicit 'romance' novels). They might not sit there reading and masturbating at the same time (though some do), but they do take those erotic thoughts and scenarios and use those as fantasies while masturbating. Fantasizing is not unlike men using visual images in porn...they're both about turning yourself on.

 

Yeah, some men take it too far because it's so easy to access, and some men become addicted. Those men lose sight of real sex, warp their sex lives and marriages with their spouses, and their views of women.

 

I wonder, though, how many women who "hate porn" hate it because they hate the idea that their SO is masturbating at all. Would the ladies be ok if their guy masturbated once a day without using porn and if it didn't alter their sex life any?

[sunseed]

Would the ladies be ok if their guy masturbated once a day without using porn and if it didn't alter their sex life any?

 

Speaking for this lady only, in a word:

 

YES!!!

 

Man, someone finally asked...

[ronnieromance]

Hey Ronnie,

 

Women have been arguing this point with every new medium because with every new medium there comes a new set of trappings and questions. Shyuh. It affects all of us one way or another, and to assume that we don't need to discuss it would be foolish and shortsighted.

 

My husband's addiction to porn is his own volunteering and he's been trying to tell me about it for almost a year now. It's been a problem of HIS for nearly 15 years and is related to trauma in his past. Hence the "secrecy" and the crying I mentioned, but nice try blaming this one on women. I'm not a victim of his porning as such, but I did get hurt by his lies about it and his built-in fear of intimacy, which is what led him to use. (Not me, honey, or us together. I'll thank you not to make implications) If I stay with him I am faced with trust problems and that's daunting. Shyuh again. If you can't see that I'm not making myself a victim, then you're mistaking me for someone else and that is unhelpful to the debate.

 

I get the sense that you're a guy who's able, ar at least thinks he's able to handle porn without it hurting your relationships. And that's great--bravo. Do whatever makes you happy and I mean that. If you can combine porn and a relationship with no problems, I really, truly am happy for you. To reiterate a point I've already made, I do not believe that porn it is a problem for every person who's ever come into contact with it. I haven't seen enough evidence to make that argument.

 

But I would submit that it is unwise to assume that all guys are like you and can handle it. I don't assume all women are like me.

 

ps: for the purposes of my discussion: made by nature = natural. made by culture = artificial and therefore not natural. shyuh for the third time. See Lennox's last post for a more impassioned argument of the same point.

 

Your tone in speaking about your husband is decidedly accusatory. You may not be portraying yourself as a victim in the classical sense of the word, but as far as the way you paint the picture of how porn has affected the dynamic of your relationship, you are making yourself out to be one. Surely, you are the victim that prevails. The vigilante victim. The castrator. Look at the tone of your words. You're angry at this man and you want to crush any semblance of his being a man.

 

I am however curious to the trauma he sustained, and it's nature as pertaining to said secrecy. I'm not blaming you for anything, or womwn in general, just saying that many times porn is the symptom of relationship problems rather than the cause, as it is usually painted.

 

I've had few girlfriends who have enjoyed, or admitted to watching porn. I have watched it with certain, more open minded women as well. The problem in your relationship didn't stem from him using porn, as you've stated. What happend was you put him in a corner. You set him up, in a way, by demanding he change on the spot for you. His lying wasn't right, but was it really any more insidious than say "No, baby." when you ask if something makes you look fat?

 

Advocating not talking about it wasn't the point I was trying to make. I was simply saying that the porn "epidemic" has not gotten worse over the years. Men still look at it as they did in the past and they did when they were younger. I'm sorry you think that, because I don't agree with you, I'm not helpful to the debate.

 

P.S. I understand that the tangible medium in which porn exists is not part of nature, but the place it fills is a natural drive in men. This is why so many men look at porn, and always have...And will.

 

Besides, porn provides great careers for many people. Editors are employed, webmasters, CEOs. Many of the actors are very happy with their profession. It may not be for everyone, but attempting to demonize, not only an industry, but the people in it is...typically sensationalist and alarmist behavior.

 

 

-R-

[ronnieromance]

BTW ladies, if a man wants to bed you, he will do so pretty much regardless of how often he masturbates.

 

 

-R-

[catgirl1927]

Remember, sunseed, Ronnie also thinks that conservative ideas about fidelity and sex = insecurity. Cool girls don't care if you sleep around, and the man defines whether or not his behavior is cheating, not the woman.

[portableversion]

because their logic is so lacking.

 

Ronnie, if we look to the 'natural' world, that is, outside of human society, we will find that the males routinely rape the females in order to impregnate them. But we as humans have criminalized rape and don't accept it. Or maybe you do, Mr. Natural.

 

The men in Indonesia certainly do not like porn.

[ronnieromance]

Remember, sunseed, Ronnie also thinks that conservative ideas about fidelity and sex = insecurity. Cool girls don't care if you sleep around, and the man defines whether or not his behavior is cheating, not the woman.

 

No. Not necessarilly. It's just that, you're good at trying to put words in people's mouths.

 

 

-R-

[catgirl1927]

I don't know if I so much put words in people's mouths as I boil down what they are saying to the nitty gritty with no sugar coating. People will talk in circles and deny that they are saying something because if you just SAY it, it sounds different than if you twist it all around.

[ronnieromance]

because their logic is so lacking.

 

Ronnie, if we look to the 'natural' world, that is, outside of human society, we will find that the males routinely rape the females in order to impregnate them. But we as humans have criminalized rape and don't accept it. Or maybe you do, Mr. Natural.

 

You're kidding, right? I mean, you just opened up a whole can of worms of the "she asked for it" variety if you're serious. That completely dimisses the fact that a lot of non-human animals go into heat and relese pheromones

 

 

The men in Indonesia certainly do not like porn.

 

Maybe, but I bet they like looking at other women and a fair amount of them a polygamists. I don't know much about Indonesian men per-se, but I have a penis and I know we(people with penises) typically aren't too different.

 

 

 

-R-

[ronnieromance]

I don't know if I so much put words in people's mouths as I boil down what they are saying to the nitty gritty with no sugar coating. People will talk in circles and deny that they are saying something because if you just SAY it, it sounds different than if you twist it all around.

 

Beleive me, I say exactly what I mean. You just hear what you want/do sometimes. It's that Mars/Venus s***.

 

 

 

-T-

[catgirl1927]

Beleive me, I say exactly what I mean. You just hear what you want/do sometimes. It's that Mars/Venus s***.

 

Do you really think so? I'm genuinely asking. It would be helpful if I could have an example of what you mean.

 

It's also important for everyone, esp me, to recognize that I have very conservative ideas about fidelity, I'm not ok with threesomes, I think that's just consensual cheating. But I contradict myself there, because if it's consensual, it's not cheating, right? And just because I feel a certain way does not make people who don't feel that way wrong.

 

It's important to find someone with similar ideas about fidelity to your own. I couldn't be with someone who was messing around on me, even if he insisted that it "didn't mean anything." Because if sex means nothing, then what would make me think I was any different from her?

 

Didn't you sign things -R- before? I assumed it was an initial, is it not?

[ronnieromance]

Do you really think so? I'm genuinely asking. It would be helpful if I could have an example of what you mean.

 

It's also important for everyone, esp me, to recognize that I have very conservative ideas about fidelity, I'm not ok with threesomes, I think that's just consensual cheating. But I contradict myself there, because if it's consensual, it's not cheating, right? And just because I feel a certain way does not make people who don't feel that way wrong.

 

It's important to find someone with similar ideas about fidelity to your own. I couldn't be with someone who was messing around on me, even if he insisted that it "didn't mean anything." Because if sex means nothing, then what would make me think I was any different from her?

 

Didn't you sign things -R- before? I assumed it was an initial, is it not?

 

Threesomes are over-rated. They don't offend my sensibilities, but I've found that someone always gets angry, jealous or whatever. Soo...I told you before, definitions of cheating are dependant upon communication between the people i nthe relationship. You're the one who has, on moret han one occassion, implied or out right stated that I say that a man dictates what is regardless.

 

Look, if we sit down and discuss it, and you tell me that you consider strip clubs, porn, webdate, myspace or a lapdance cheating, I'll say, "Fine." Peace. I haven't defined what cheating is, but I won't put myself in a position that will surely lead to a post by my SO on LoveShack.

 

 

 

 

-R-

 

If you want to find posts where I said exactly what I meant, you can look at the last one. THe one before that and the one prior to that one.

 

As for my initial, it was a typo. It happens.

[Pink_Tulip]

Can't believe this one got started up again!

 

Anyway, Ronnie- I have no problem with married couples who participate in open relationships, swinging, threesomes, etc. as long as it is completely consual on both sides, one isn't pushing the other, etc. Not for me at all, but I would not tell other consenting adults what they can or can't do. The point is, we are all different. I have seen you say on a few different posts that, basically, all men look at porn. You seem to be an intelligent person, so why would you generalize like this? I know plenty of men who don't look at porn, who find it as tacky and distasteful as myself. And I know plenty of men who enjoy porn. Heck, I know plenty of women who enjoy porn. I think you are being very short sighted, almost ignorant, when you suggest women need to get over the porn thing b/c 'it is a natural drive for men.'

 

The issue in all of this is, to be open and honest from the beginning about your preferences. Obviously, if a woman you started dating said up front that she will not allow porn in her relationship, you could walk away at that point, realizing that you had completely different ideas for what was acceptable in a relationship. Just as the woman could walk away knowing you had a preference she could not accept. It doesn't matter if YOU like porn, and think it should be ok in the relationship- that isn't the issue.

 

Many of these threads start b/c a woman was lied to. That has nothing to do with porn. We all know there are plenty of women who are ok with porn, so a man shouldn't feel bad about saying that is something he will not negotiate. It is the lying and betrayal that is the issue. As I have stated before, porn is a moral issue for me. I want to be with someone who has the same moral beliefs. No one else on this planet has to agree, but if my marriage is gonna work, my H has to. THAT is the issue. Not porn. Porn is just a topic.

 

I think Catgirl brought up the point of drugs and smoking etc on another porn thread, maybe this one... too many to count! The same principle holds. When you set what in your life is a moral boundry, and you are lied to and that boundry is crossed, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

 

I respect your opinion about porn. But I think you are missing the issue women have on this. No woman came on and said they believe porn should be abolished, that people who watch it are bad, etc. They just said they set a boundry in their relationship, and that boundry was violated. It is that simple, IMO.

 

Calling a poster a 'castrator' who wants to 'crush his being a man' b/c she does not want porn in her relationship, and made those feelings known from the beginning, is, IMO, a very nasty, demeaning thing to say.

 

OK, off my soapbox now, continue.

[sunseed]

Catgirl, I appreciate it. Again, we hang.

 

Ronnie, this is the last post I will use to address you on this thread:

 

Yep, I'm angry. But not at my husband when I respond to your invective. Name calling, insults on my character and assumptions are really not useful, though I stand by my assertion that actual debate is useful to the debate. But, since you took the gloves off...

 

There are more made-up notions, personal attacks and predation on insecurity in your response to my post than genuine arguments. I would like to point out the irony of calling me a victim and then assaulting me for it. And the irony of accusing me of being an accuser. You're trying to victimize me and you're accusing me, and that's dirty.

 

Sadly, you don't have the slightest idea what either of us is talking about because you're too busy being blinded by your entitlement to bother with anything smacking of compassion for another person's plight. My husband has been diagnosed as a sex addict by 2 different psychologists, putting him in a category I hope for your sake you can't relate to. Moreover, years ago he made agreements with me about not using porn--on his own--then used it anyway and kept it from me. My fault? Women's fault that men "have" to hide this garbage? That doesn't leave men much agency, does it?

 

Now who's the sodding victim?

 

Everyone else, this has been a really neat discussion and thanks. I'm going to stop discussing myself though now so we can help out drydania, if she's still reading! I'd like to apologize to her for hijacking this thread with my stushizzle.

 

So on that note:

 

Do African Bushmen squat behind rocks and jerk off to their villagemates' screwing? Did cavemen do this? Somehow I doubt it. Porn is cultural. Figure it out. Wanting to have sex is natural. As is wanting to see people with their clothes off, because clothes are cultural too. Hence the desperation to see boobies and booties. Nudie shots of women (and we're back to culture) are marketed to men because this here is a patriarchy.

[sunseed]

We hang too. I dig your post.

[Guest]

i know exactly how you feel and the only way to get through this is to forgive and forget. i caught my b/f watching a video early in the morning and i flipped out! i still cant get over the hurtful and betrayal feelings but you have to learn that it was a big big mistake and try to move on. i ended up crying hysterically for 2 days thinking i wasnt sexy enough, i wasnt good enough in bed, or i didnt match up to the slutty freaky girls... but in all honesty, i KNOW that im better then that and i told him that straight up. i told him if he continues to watch it, then im done, and out of the relationship. when it comes to ur feelings, you have to make your point and let them know that what they are doing is hurting you and stabbing you in the heart. i hope you feel better now and make sure he throws all that crap out!!! i wont stand for it and neither should you!!!! good luck