Marriage counselors? Why?

[johnlucas]

Been reading posts in this forum for a little while tonight.

After each betrayal some spouse did against another I keep hearing people talking about "see a marriage counselor" "go see a counselor" "find a marriage counselor".

 

Marriage counselor?

Why?

 

What for?

What's the point of these characters when most of these illusions of bonding are evaporated?

Is *that* the purpose?

To maintain the mirage of a happy bonded couple for society.

Is that REALLY so important?

 

I don't know, folks, but reading most of the entries in these forums show me that most people in the world are full of sh*t.

They lie to themselves & others & will layer more lies upon the old lies to maintain fragile fantasies & mirages.

 

Is the human animal unable as a collective to face reality?

Is that encoded in the programming?

 

In my opinion marriage as it stands now needs to be abolished.

It should be revised to be a contract reviewed and renewed yearly or semi-yearly maybe monthly or bi-monthly/tri-monthly complete with prenuptial agreements. Kids should be taken care of by parental care contracts at birth to resolve any forthcoming issues with childcare with or without parental abandonment or neglect.

 

All marriage is is a legal contract for the state so why not make it more in tune with real human behavior & biology to prevent the muddiness that comes up when marriages go south?

 

How is a marriage counselor gonna be able to piece together shattered china?

Not cracked china; shattered china.

The time for marriage counselors was long before the betrayal.

Is that catchphrase "see a marriage counselor" a meme designed by marriage counselors to promote business?

 

Why do people think marriage counselors are such miracle workers?

The simple fact of the matter is that a marriage is only as good as the two parties involved.

If one of those parties is crap, then it doesn't matter what a marriage counselor says or does. The doggone thing just won't work.

 

It's just that simple.

 

Why all the fairytales, fantasies & lies that surround relationships?

I mean this kind of stuff was cool when you were 3 & 4 years old with the Tooth Fairy, The Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, The Great Pumpkin, & Kwanzaa Kelly but come on folks.

 

Soulmates? Are you serious? Knights in shining armor? Princesses?

 

The review & renew contracts will prevent a lot of the late-in-relationship heart shifts that lead into all these deceptive practices & outright betrayals.

And make it a challenge to see the renewal through so both parties will have to WANT to renew it in order to get it. If it's too easy to renew then we're basically back at the old system.

Maybe making the parties give an thoughtout detailed answer to why they seek renewal.

 

If the consensus is weak or fading then no renewal. They are single again only with remaining child care contract intact.

 

Anything's better than this far-too-late marriage counselor intervention people keep bringing up.

And in remembrance of one post I thread I read here, most times after a betrayal no matter how much they try to put to train back on the tracks the rails are destroyed. When it's over, it's d*mn over & that's just that.

Anything else is just more self-delusion which seems to be the human pasttime from what I've seen.

 

John Lucas

[Blind Illusion]

I really wouldn't say marital counselors were miracle workers but I think an objective 3rd party could help. What is there to possibly lose.? I mean that in all cases, not just those unions with infidelity issues.

 

I think people get fixated with the way they react to the partner and sometimes, a therapist can present different ways of communicating.

[Trimmer]

And make it a challenge to see the renewal through so both parties will have to WANT to renew it in order to get it. If it's too easy to renew then we're basically back at the old system.

Maybe making the parties give an thoughtout detailed answer to why they seek renewal.

 

If the consensus is weak or fading then no renewal. They are single again only with remaining child care contract intact.

 

And who would you propose to put in the position of adjudicating such a renewal on behalf of the state? What agency shall we let decide whether we are worthy of remaining married? "We're from the government and we're here to help you. We know what's best..."

 

Maybe we should let marriage counselors decide.

 

I have to say that after your evening of reading posts in this forum, you sound like you have come to a very black-and-white view of things: you sound like you think betrayal is rampant, the purpose of marriage counselors is maintaining illusions, "most people in the world are full of sh*t", etc... May I remind you that you are browsing a forum with a very specific subject, that of its nature attracts a very specific audience of "damaged" people (and to be clear: I say that counting myself among them, by no means above them...) To extrapolate from this to "most people in the world are full of sh*t" is a bit of a pessimistic overgeneralization, isn't it?

[johnlucas]

And who would you propose to put in the position of adjudicating such a renewal on behalf of the state? What agency shall we let decide whether we are worthy of remaining married? "We're from the government and we're here to help you. We know what's best..."

 

Maybe we should let marriage counselors decide.

 

I have to say that after your evening of reading posts in this forum, you sound like you have come to a very black-and-white view of things: you sound like you think betrayal is rampant, the purpose of marriage counselors is maintaining illusions, "most people in the world are full of sh*t", etc... May I remind you that you are browsing a forum with a very specific subject, that of its nature attracts a very specific audience of "damaged" people (and to be clear: I say that counting myself among them, by no means above them...) To extrapolate from this to "most people in the world are full of sh*t" is a bit of a pessimistic overgeneralization, isn't it?

 

Hey, it'll create jobs. A special marriage agency set-up by government. Like Justices-of-the-Peace are set-up now.

I feel what you're saying about how that sounds so Big Brother but marriage is state sanctioned endeavor anyhow. What would really change? I'm not saying everyone would go through the process. Like I said before a long-term relationship is really a marriage already. Marriage as we know it is just the government's seal of approval that gives some put-upon rules & regulations to something that already exists.

 

I guess I wrote this post out of frustration reading the stories here because it looked to me that marriage is in desperate need of reform. People basically said it's for the kids so I figured why not set-up a child-support type document at birth REGARDLESS of union or disunion. That way the kids will be taken care of legally without all the confusion. Also set-up prenuptials at the genesis to protect assets so people won't find themselves trapped financially—male or female—in destructive marriages. That's a lot of the reason why people don't leave these bad unions. They can't escape for fear of financial ruin/homelessness.

 

And I think making marriage harder to come by will make sure that only the people who are fit to get married will marry. By keeping marriage as a subscription-type of deal people can evaluate the quality of their union & choose or not choose to continue. ACTIVELY thinking about their relation instead of just getting into habits & being complacent with it. It will keep it on the forefront of their minds. By writing in detail why they should have the renewal will force them to actively think of what they're getting from the marriage & why the marriage is successful or not. And both spouses should write separately so there is no pressure from the other. It should come from the heart honestly.

 

And see my viewpoint doesn't just come from the posts on this forum. There's people in my family & stories I've seen on Divorce Court that let me know marriage is in serious need of overhaul.

It doesn't HAVE to be betrayal. Some people in marriages may not cheat but they still aren't 'together' if you know what I mean. Strangers in the same house. That's the OTHER type of marriage failure. They get into a routine for so long that they end up complacent in their behavior not doing what it takes to maintain the spark in the marriage. They stay 'together' for the image it brings for society & family but they are no longer bonded.

 

Maybe it IS pessimistic but it's more common for marriages to fail than succeed one way or another. Listening to cheaters on here & some of the cheated-on on here makes me think people are just full of it. Their thinking is muddy & not clear. They're selfish or not assertive. Cowardly & fearful. No self-respect or no respect for others.

I mean the reasons people come up with for why they did what they did or why they allowed happen to them what they allowed happen...it boggles my mind! Definitely shows me that the institution is not all it's cracked up to be.

Yes, I'm turned off of marriage. These stories reinforce my stance of why I'll most likely NEVER marry.

 

How many Other Man/Other Woman stories do you see with a person or a spouse getting it on with some other married person? Both parties just driving stakes through their respective spouses'/lovers' hearts with their dirt & sneaking around in the shadows. Look at all the things people do to find out their spouse is playing them. Keylogging, folks??? Spending your precious time playing Inspector Gadget/Clousseau or Columbo trying to find out exactly HOW the spouse is cheating??? Months & months of gathering evidence just so you can make a clear case in divorce court all the while knowing your union is a farce??? Instead of putting that energy into finding someone better?

 

It just makes no sense to me. The institution is not set in tune with human behavior & biology; that's why so many fall apart.

And then I keep hearing people talk about marriage counselors AFTER the ruination of the union??? No, not when things are beginning to get bad when it may help but AFTER the union is virtually dissolved by some betrayal???

 

"My husband got another woman pregnant and I'm besides myself in chaos. I love him but I hate him for what he did. What do I do?"

 

"See a marriage counselor!"

 

"My wife has been going out on odd late nights lately and won't have sex with me anymore. I suspect she has an affair. We have 3 kids together and have just started paying the mortgage on our new house. I need advice!"

 

"See a marriage counselor!"

 

"Both me & my husband have been getting into fights lately. We said some hurtful things to each other and as a result I ran into another man's arms. Then my husband finds out & gets even by sleeping with a female co-worker. And I think I maybe pregnant but I'm not sure by who. I'm panicked!! What do I do?"

 

"See a marriage counselor!"

 

That makes no sense to me.

After these catastrophies people STILL keep suggesting that a marriage counselor can solve their ills. But I ask 'why?' What's the point? Do they really think this outside party can fix the behavior & habits of the injurious party? You can't put a band-aid on a 3rd degree burn.

 

Is maintaining the mirage of marital bliss THAT important?

After some betrayals there IS no turning back. There will ALWAYS be that part of you that feels anger & distrust toward the spouse that hurt you. A part of you will always remain closed to the other no matter HOW much you fake yourself out maintaining the image.

 

I think overhauling the institution from the ground-up will make it work better & with a lot less grief to the people involved. Some people are only able to stay together for 5 years while others are able just for 1 year and others for 15 years. By giving an option for an out at a certain time juncture people can make a conscious decision instead of a rubberstamped habit of thinking of the integrity of their union. You'll get better quality marriages that way.

 

And besides it solves that problem of guys remembering anniversaries!

John Lucas

[Alexandra]

John, you have a bit of everything in your posts. Meaning they spread over several areas and concepts.

 

First of all on the issue of marriage counselors. You ask why and presume by the time people face that step their relationship is irreparable. There's your wrong premise right there. It's not a 3rd degree burn, it's not a shattered vessle, it's a small cut or a piece of porcelain with a crack.

 

Many marriages come to a point where they develop a dysfunctional pattern that steams, many times, not from deeply irreconcilable issues but something as small as a lack of exercise to deal with conflicts or insufficiently developed communicational skills.

 

They're small things that can be corrected with exercise and it is where a therapist -granted, not all of them- can help if the parties are willing to learn. I've seen tens of couples whose only issue was not knowing how to efficiently fight. People who loved each other deeply and were a good match, but were so consumed by their pattern they didn't know how to get out of it.

 

That said, you are right, some couples are beyond the point where anything can be fixed and a professional marriage counselor can tell them that but not before they have tried. Marriage is a committment even in the contract situation you advocate so people will in good conscience try and put as much effort into it as possible.

 

"My husband got another woman pregnant and I'm besides myself in chaos. I love him but I hate him for what he did. What do I do?"See a marriage counselor!"

 

Why? Because she needs to deal with that anger, because she may still love him, he may still love her, it may have been a mistake and they may both be the sort of people who can deal with that and keep being together because there's love and compatibility. Because even if they won't solve it they will come out of it stronger emotionally if they know they tried and have had guidance in doing so efficiently.

 

"My wife has been going out on odd late nights lately and won't have sex with me anymore. I suspect she has an affair. We have 3 kids together and have just started paying the mortgage on our new house. I need advice!""See a marriage counselor!"

 

Why? Because something is going on (strong emotions are at play, love, need, insatisfaction, parental love, etc) and all alone he won't work it out or not as simply. Because marriage counseling means both of them in a room with a third party. Where she can explain what she needs and wants and he can too. Where they'll get it out in the open and possibly solve it.

 

"Both me & my husband have been getting into fights lately. We said some hurtful things to each other and as a result I ran into another man's arms. Then my husband finds out & gets even by sleeping with a female co-worker. And I think I maybe pregnant but I'm not sure by who. I'm panicked!! What do I do?""See a marriage counselor!"

 

Well that's an even more extreme case and possibly they both need individual therapy in addition to marriage counseling.

 

All in all yes, divorce is a quick patch, no, marriage counseling doesn't give any guarantees but it gives people who wish for it, a chance to straighten things and to learn more about themselves.

 

With all that said, here's a shrink who agrees with you. Marriage should be a renewable contract. Tri-monthly is ridiculous but once a year or once every few years can't hurt anyone. In fact, if I had my way in an ideal world marriage would require a license, peoples' EQ and personalities would be tested before they were ok-ed to get married. And in that ideal world marriage counselors may become almost redundant.

[blind_otter]

That makes no sense to me.

After these catastrophies people STILL keep suggesting that a marriage counselor can solve their ills. But I ask 'why?' What's the point? Do they really think this outside party can fix the behavior & habits of the injurious party? You can't put a band-aid on a 3rd degree burn.

 

 

The issue, to me, is that the person is seeking help. They have a third degree burn and need treatment. No one on this website is adequately equipped to deal with those issues, but the individual is obviously seeking some kind of help in dealing with their troubles. So you refer them to someone who deals with marital problems professionaly, and hope that the professional can figure out how to treat their third degree burn.

 

The purpose of marriage counseling, I think, you have confused with something else. In fact, you indicate that you lack an understanding of what counseling is supposed to be, which is understandeable. Unless you've studied it, or experienced it, of course you wouldn't know!

 

Couseling isn't supposed to "fix" anything. Ideally, individual(s) have a clear problem or issue in their life that they have tried to address in many different ways, with no clear success. An objective party with training in behavioral modification and altering cognivite processes, can sit down and identify the issue and give you different options or ways to attack the problem that you then employ all by yourself.

 

It's just giving you different options you may not have thought about, to address a problem that you have that interferes with your ability to enjoy other aspects of your life.

 

If those different tactics don't work then you can withdraw from the relationship knowing that you did try your best, and even when you ran out of ideas on your own, you sought help from an outside, objective party -- and failing in that attempt, it feels like you covered your bases.

 

But counseling, marital or individual, is never about fixing someone. It's about giving them different tools or options to attempt to clear it up themselves.

[Outcast]

It's not the fault of marriage that marriages don't succeed. It's the fault of the people who marry; they go into it with less than full commitment, with unresolved issues of their own, for reasons other than that they want to spend the rest of their lives with their partners.

 

I agree it should be very difficult to get married. People should have psych evaluations and go to marriage preparation courses in order to get their marriage permits.

[Chump64]

To maintain the mirage of a happy bonded couple for society.

Is that REALLY so important?

 

Have you ever met with a counselor trained in psychology? A good counselor is not going to encourage a couple to stay together and create an illusion. Some religion-based counselors will go down that road, though, trying to save a broken marriage at all costs.

 

We go to counseling to explore our pasts, factors in our personalities, etc. – anything that might help us understand how we got to this point and what went wrong, and how we can improve things (if we end up staying together). The main thing is that counseling is helping us clarify our thoughts. My husband is not even sure why he did a lot of the stuff he did. It’s a counselor’s job to pose questions, propose theories for you to think about, etc. It’s not his job to force us or advise us to stay together. Even if I knew we were doomed for divorce – which may be the case, I just don’t know yet -- I would still be meeting with a counselor.

 

Counseling isn't supposed to "fix" anything.

 

Exactly. No one can “fix” anything for anyone else. For me, it’s about clarifying my thoughts and helping me figure out what I want and need to be at peace. Counselors can also help create some self awareness. We all have assumptions, behaviors, etc., that deserve to be poked or questioned a bit, especially if they are ultimately getting in the way of our own happiness.

 

Counselors can help you see things in a different light, from a different perspective that you may never have considered otherwise. To me, this is valuable.