The stripper question

[Tim'sAngel]

Wow, am i really the only women who sees it this wa?

[ronnieromance]

 

What I'd really like to know from you is why you think that because I think a lapdance is cheating that I must hate strippers? Whether I'm right or wrong about the cheating, I really don't see the connection.

 

It's not because you think a lap dance is cheating. It's because of your choice of words. You don't like them and it comes through in what you say and don't say.

 

 

-R-

[Tim'sAngel]

Good point Alpha. I know this is at the heart of mens apparant dichotomy, but I didn't want to bring it up.

 

You illustrated really well, so I guess I can; It's the Madonna/Whore thing. We want both and probably in the back of our minds want it in the same person. But the things that make one be what she is, usually translate to not being the other.

 

For instance, the women I've datedthat I've found most sexually open and gratifying couldn't cook for s***. They burned oatmeal, put too much milk in cereal, etc.

 

The good girls my mom actually liked were attentive and sweet, but left me with a wandering eye most of the time. I don't know why it's like that, but it is.

 

-R-

 

So what if you had a women who was physically very attractive, worked out regularly and kept her body in shape, had beautiful hair and long legs and tiny waist, and also could cook, clean, have a good job, be independant yet make you feel needed, would you still want to look around?

[ronnieromance]

It's not that simple. It's jene se qua. Sexy isn't about looks. Looks help, but it's different. I suppose when women say they like men with confidence that's part of it.

 

There-in-lies the problem. It's complex, ethereal, and psychological.

 

 

-R-

[catgirl1927]

Good point Alpha. I know this is at the heart of mens apparant dichotomy, but I didn't want to bring it up.

 

You illustrated really well, so I guess I can; It's the Madonna/Whore thing. We want both and probably in the back of our minds want it in the same person. But the things that make one be what she is, usually translate to not being the other.

 

For instance, the women I've datedthat I've found most sexually open and gratifying couldn't cook for s***. They burned oatmeal, put too much milk in cereal, etc.

 

The good girls my mom actually liked were attentive and sweet, but left me with a wandering eye most of the time. I don't know why it's like that, but it is.

 

-R-

 

So you admit that men aren't satified with one woman and are likely to seek out sexual gratification from others. But you still insist that a lap dance isn't cheating, even though you admit you'd rather have sex with the stripper.

 

You still haven't answered my question, you are being deliberately vague because I believe that you just think men should get to be with as many women as they want and women should just understand that they are inadequate. You are condemning me as a loser and a fatass loony because you resent that I call a spade a spade.

 

And why on earth would you care if I hated strippers anyway? What difference does it make?

[Alexandra]

And why on earth would you care if I hated strippers anyway? What difference does it make?

 

That's one of the parts I don't get Catgirl. You seem very focused on it. Why? What does it matter? Even if you disliked them, what would be wrong with that? I have a bunch of categories of people and all sorts of women and men I don't like. Even more, if you did dislike them and someone would say that's not fine, why would you care about it? As long as you have an opinion and you're at peace with it why second guess yourself? Especially since you clearly stated which that opinion is, hence if someone has it wrong it's their lack of comprehension not your lack of articulation.

 

Which brings me to a point I wanted to make on your other thread about insecurity and didn't. So it's slightly off topic here. In my personal and professional opinion you're not insecure. I don't know who put that idea into your head:) Someone insecure is far less opinionated and less inclined to explore. It sounds to me more like you are a perfectionist. You just want more. Of yourself, of him, of others. What's wrong with that?

 

Someone completely insecure would be accepting of a lesser role (e.g. be fine with being told she'll just be "the good girl making the pot roast") you're not ready to do that. You're willing to fight to be everything. No insecurity in that, just a need to be better.

 

Frankly the only thing that I may see as a source of conflict within yourself is your "overly-open-mind" meaning your inquiring nature coupled with your desire to investigate and empathize with any opposing view. In other words there's nothing wrong with being a relativist but at times it may make you question yourself even. It's not insecurity though.

[catgirl1927]

OK, Alexandra, I think you're SO awesome.

 

I am a perfectionist. In truth, I want my BF to not really want to go see a stripper because I am enough. I will accept nothing less than total perfection from myself.

 

I'm mostly interested in why someone would think I hate someone largely because my BF says the same thing, that I just hate them. I don't hate them, because I don't like to hate any person. But I do hate what they represent, which is my imperfection and the notion that I don't deserve to be treasured and loved.

 

I wish you were in Texas, I need a therapist...

[Alexandra]

I wish you were in Texas, I need a therapist...

 

LOL thanks for the compliment first of all

 

Second I don't think you need a therapist at all. If you did I'd tell you. Oh and most of my patients are online so it's not the distance, it's that you ain't needing it miss!

[catgirl1927]

You know, my boyfriend has told me that I take strippers and stripping way too personally. Like it's an attack on me and my value. I'm also very threatened by his ex girlfriends, even when he gives me no reason to be.

 

Could that be from the standards I set for myself too? Like I just don't see myself as good enough?

[Alexandra]

You know, my boyfriend has told me that I take strippers and stripping way too personally. Like it's an attack on me and my value. I'm also very threatened by his ex girlfriends, even when he gives me no reason to be.

 

Could that be from the standards I set for myself too? Like I just don't see myself as good enough?

 

People take things personally when they care about the issue. It has no comparison degree, no such thing as "TOO personally".

 

Like you don't see yourself as good enough? On the very contrary, you see yourself as great and don't like to have that very intrinsec self worth quotient challanged by something he or others would do to suggest they don't get how good you are.

[Tim'sAngel]

You know, my boyfriend has told me that I take strippers and stripping way too personally. Like it's an attack on me and my value. I'm also very threatened by his ex girlfriends, even when he gives me no reason to be.

 

Could that be from the standards I set for myself too? Like I just don't see myself as good enough?

 

It sounds to me Catgirl, that you suffer from insecurity. I know because I used to be exactly the same way! IT wasn't until I told myself how miserable I was and decided to work on being more open minded and accepting myself for what I was that the insecurities started to go away. I still hate the way I look. I need to lose a few lbs, my boobs arn't perky anymore, I hate my hair... but my man loves me and that makes me feel beautiful. He is always telling me how beautiful I am, even when I'm in my pajamas and my hair is up in a flop, and I have on no makeup and stains from feeding my son!! That helps alot

 

How is your relationship cat? Does your SO make you feel like you are beautiful and sexy to him? Does he put you down? Do you feel beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is faithful to you and loves you?

 

Maybe if you start asking yourself questions and focusing on why you are insecure you can get to the bottom of your insecurities.

[Alexandra]

It sounds to me Catgirl' date=' that you suffer from insecurity. [/quote']

 

I disagree as I said above.

 

I still hate the way I look. I need to lose a few lbs' date=' my boobs arn't perky anymore, I hate my hair... but my man loves me and that makes me feel beautiful. He is always telling me how beautiful I am, even when I'm in my pajamas and my hair is up in a flop, and I have on no makeup and stains from feeding my son!! That helps alot[/quote']

 

I'm sorry to say this TA as I really like your posts and we agree on many things but what you're describing (and what you're asking Catgirl about too) is not being secure or confident but being loved.

 

Which indeed comes with an element of that, but true self esteem is not dependent on anyone else, it's a knowledge of you and your qualities you have at all times, man or no man, others agreeing or not. And it doesn't mean you're not allowed to want to better yourself either, it doesn't mean you can't still have areas about yourself that you objectively feel are not as great as you wish them to be. That's being aware and rational not being insecure.

 

I really hope you do work on securing that knowledge about yourself outside of his imput.

[catgirl1927]

I know he loves me. But I know I'm not perfect and I really, really want to be.

 

But I also know that the strippers that he dated aren't perfect. But they LOOK perfect. They act perfect and they sure seem perfect.

 

Just like alpha says. I'm the girl with the "nice personality," the one a guy settles for because he can't handle (or maybe afford) the woman he really wants. The sweet one who won't cheat or lie or steal. Who will always be faithful and take care of him and his kids, who will love him just for him. I'll do, since he can't have what he really wants. Blech.

 

Not good enough. I want to be the whole package. I want to be super hot and sexy as well as successful, smart, funny and strong.

 

I feel a lot better to have someone not tell me that wanting to be perfect is "insecurity." Like my search for perfection in myself is somehow weakness. I disagree.

[tinktronik]

You know, my boyfriend has told me that I take strippers and stripping way too personally. Like it's an attack on me and my value. I'm also very threatened by his ex girlfriends, even when he gives me no reason to be.

 

Could that be from the standards I set for myself too? Like I just don't see myself as good enough?

I don't think you hate strippers CG. You don't hate me ,and I used to be one , while some other posters have taken swipes at me while armed with that knowledge , you have not. I don't date men at all that frequent strip clubs , my current s/o has never been in one . I think the things I would be upset about is spending our money in a girls panties , this just seems so tasteless. I do recall ,if It was you, that your s/o had a relationship with a dancer that broke his heart, that was you ?

[catgirl1927]

He dated a dancer, but she didn't hurt him. He only dated her casually and not for very long. I was able to talk to one of his friend's moms. The girl who broke his heart was actually not a model, cheerleader, stripper, or on any TV shows. She was a girl, his friend's mom said, very much like me. She just wanted to get married and he wasn't ready yet. So she broke up and got married and had two kids within four years.

 

Seriously, if I could make a living by being beautiful, I would. Then I would retire and build a no-kill shelter for cats.

 

Strippers don't seek men out. They don't have to. I can't imagine that someone who had danced would have a very high opinion of men. I would think that trust would be a big issue for them, knowing how likely men are to cheat and how easily they justify it. Talk about only seeing people at their worst... I have no reason to hate them. I'm jealous as hell. But I don't hate them.

[tinktronik]

Seriously, if I could make a living by being beautiful, I would. Then I would retire and build a no-kill shelter for cats.

 

Strippers don't seek men out. They don't have to. I can't imagine that someone who had danced would have a very high opinion of men. I would think that trust would be a big issue for them, knowing how likely men are to cheat and how easily they justify it. Talk about only seeing people at their worst... I have no reason to hate them. I'm jealous as hell. But I don't hate them.

The no-kill shelter is a great idea , I think my home may be becoming one . I found a colony of cats under my home , so have began trapping and spaying them.

 

I don't know , I would say I had one complete persona (agressive ,outgoing , funny , witty, sexy , and coifed ) while dancing , that I did not carry away from work .IRL I am a very shy bookworm who dosn't wear much make-up and usually just throws myself together . I don't have a low opinion of men , I don't think there is anything wrong with doing whatever you want to do as long as you don't hurt anyone else , or choose to do it knowing that there is someone who COULD be hurt. Men are very much like humans, in all sorts of different emotional , physical and intelectual packages. They have choices , and are perfectly capable making them reguardless of what's in their faces.Yes even Boobs.

 

However I will add here in edit that I do tend to HIDE from male attention , not really want THE LOOKS or Comments . It makes me uncomfortable IRL as opposed to the strip club , I think because I cme to feel that was appropriate for work behavior , not foer real life.

[catgirl1927]

They have choices , and are perfectly capable making them reguardless of what's in their faces.Yes even Boobs.

 

Awesome!

[Vertex]

A lapdance... normally it is the guys who defend them and the girls who question it. To the guys, what if a girl paid a guy to, I dunno, rub his face in her chest or something? Grind into her? Who knows... I don't think it is cheating to get a lapdance but it's definitely borderline (I mean hell as long as I'm the one the girl's emotionally/physically attached to and everything's great, I would be totally cool with strippers for the sake of entertainment alone). I mean people dance and grind all the time but this seems to be less questionable compared to a lapdance for some reason.

 

When I look at the couples today that I know are very strong, there aren't strippers and lapdances involved. Maybe once in a while as an outlet for curiosity, but not like "I need to have two lapdances a year by a stripper." In that case it seems like there might be a subconscious issue at hand.

[ronnieromance]

You know, my boyfriend has told me that I take strippers and stripping way too personally. Like it's an attack on me and my value. I'm also very threatened by his ex girlfriends, even when he gives me no reason to be.

 

Could that be from the standards I set for myself too? Like I just don't see myself as good enough?

You sound a lot like a girl I was once with. She was wonderful, and loving and one of the best people to ever pass through my life. But she felt like shecouldn't measure up to some of my exes. In reality, she was wonderful in many ways they weren't. The thing she had a hard time understanding and owning was that no one can be all things to all people. She wanted to be everything to me, and I'm sure to who she's with now. Funny thing is that those things she probably wished she didn't do--the "imperfect things"--were a lot of what I loved.

 

But the bottom line is that no one can be everything to everyone. That doesn't mean I'm down with the idea of affairs. It does mean I think people can ruin things by trying to hard and not being true to who they are. I guess in effect being ok with that.

 

i guess what I'm saying is, I sensed things in you that I've seen in people close to me, or a lot of times myself. I'm not here to be mean, or a wise ass, but I think you need to look at things like that honestly, and coddling and sweet words won't help with honestly. There is no reason for you to feel threatened by an ex. I mean, there has to be reason they're exes, right?

 

Be a seeker of truth. Question things. Question yourself. Question me.

 

BTW, I wrote this before I read Tim's Angel's post.

-R-

[Alexandra]

But the bottom line is that no one can be everything to everyone.

 

You know you say this a lot. Sounds like a nice line but it's a cliche.

 

Different people have different needs. Of different sorts and different magnitudes. You can't generalize like that and retain any degree of accuracy. Some people CAN be everything to their partners and the reverse. Others indeed can't. But to be that positive you're right in saying "no one" you have to understand you're extraordinarily exagerrating matters.

[Tim'sAngel]

I disagree as I said above.

 

 

 

I'm sorry to say this TA as I really like your posts and we agree on many things but what you're describing (and what you're asking Catgirl about too) is not being secure or confident but being loved.

 

Well thanks for kindly disagreeing w/out cyber yelling and blasting my head off like some on LS

 

Which indeed comes with an element of that, but true self esteem is not dependent on anyone else, it's a knowledge of you and your qualities you have at all times, man or no man, others agreeing or not. And it doesn't mean you're not allowed to want to better yourself either, it doesn't mean you can't still have areas about yourself that you objectively feel are not as great as you wish them to be. That's being aware and rational not being insecure.

 

Maybe I didn't make myself very clear. I by no means believe that true self esteem comes from someone else's opinion. I don't feel like I have enough room to write about all the struggles and realizations (sp) I went through before I started building my own self esteem, and most of that came before I even met my SO. I agree w/all you said above. And I don't think shes insecure because she wants to be better! I believe its healthy to strive to be more than we are. I don't believe shes insecure because she won't let her hubby go to a strip club. That is stricty her opinion and between her and hubby. It's her comparing herself to strippers and how perfect she thinks they are. I have seen documentaries about strippers and most of them are single mothers w/out skills that need money, or college students just trying to pay off student loans.

 

I really hope you do work on securing that knowledge about yourself outside of his imput.

 

I started securing it before we even met

 

Cat, wanting to be perfect is not insecurity. Pointing out your flaws and comparing yourself to other people is insecurity. JMO. It's like just because other women look good enough to be put on display and attract men and yet your not one of them makes you feel unnatractive. You don't have to agree and I am in no way trying to put you down. You just say alot of things I used to say and still do sometimes. A truely secure person would not look at others wanting to be "perfect" (which most arn't, from what I've seen some are pretty nasty) but would look at them and say "they don't have what I have" JMHO

[ronnieromance]

Alex,

 

I say it a lot because I feel it's a truth that people don't think about. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that. While I won't completely disagree with you because, ironically, i don't beleive in constants, I have a caveat.

 

That is change: The only guarantee. You may be able to be such to someone for a length of time, perhaps a very long time. But, people grow, and in doing so they change, often growing apart.

 

I'm even willing to give you small percentages of the population, but human nature will win out over romantically idealized relationship statistics every time.

 

There's optomistic and there's unrealistic. I've outgrown being the latter.

 

 

 

 

-R-

[Guest]

Catgirl I know exactly how you feel.I have been told

I am everything from insecure, jealous, to controlling

just because I don't find it appropriate for another

women to take her clothes off and grind into my

boyfriend's lap.

 

As long as there is no sexual activity taking place I think its OK for any dude to get a lap dance. Its only simulated sex.

 

>>>> A lap dance is sexual activity. I really don't understand how you can say is not.It is not ok for any dude to get one. If my bf ever gets one he will be single and I will be 100%better off then being with a loser who has zero respect for me or my feelings.

[Alexandra]

I'll answer both of you, don't take it as rudeness, I just hate to make two posts one after the other and clutter the space.

 

Well thanks for kindly disagreeing w/out cyber yelling and blasting my head off like some on LS

 

Maybe I didn't make myself very clear. I by no means believe that true self esteem comes from someone else's opinion.

 

LoL not really my style to cyber yell and I reserve the head blasting for special cases;)

 

Thanks for clarifying things for me. To be honest, it didn't sound like the image I had of you to think you'd validate yourself through him which is why I even reacted. That post though did suggest that. I understand it was space constrained and not very accurate now, so I'm glad to hear all's well.

 

I say it a lot because I feel it's a truth that people don't think about.

 

First a disclaimer. I really like how you write. From a creative point of view. Only.

 

And there's that again. Your decision that you're right and in posession of an universal truth that doesn't allow nuancing or quantifying to take it out of the generalization area. We'll have to do more than agree to disagree, and that's you having to stand me believing that anyone claiming they have such "truths" when it comes to their fellow humans, is wrong.

 

You may be able to be such to someone for a length of time, perhaps a very long time. But, people grow, and in doing so they change, often growing apart.

 

Is that so? And they necessarily grow appart, they never grow together? And they change so discussing it in terms of needs as I put it to you they need more, there's no chance they may actually needs less, eh?

 

Come on, that's even more cliches and they're a mixed bag there. I appreciate the propensity for poetry but quite frankly there's no data here and if you at least once said "this is what I believe, JMO" I wouldn't be this ticked about it but you put it forth as absolute truths.

 

I'm even willing to give you small percentages of the population

 

Neah it's fine I don't need a small percentage of the population, that sounds like more than I already have to deal with. But jokes aside, very royal attitude on allowing for exceptions to confirm your rules.

 

...but human nature will win out over roantically idealized relationship statistics every time. Ther's optomistic and there's unrealistic. I've outgrown being the latter.

 

*Smile* Thank you for the implied compliment. Or was it a well crafted insult. Am I too young? Too inexperienced? Too naive? Either which it was, it's been a while since someone last accused me of that, so it was quaint. However I beg to differ. It is because I'm no longer a dreamer and an idealist that I react to people who like you did in that, believe they know "the truth".

 

But all in all, I'm unaware of how human nature really is and have a romanticized version of relationship statistics. Got that. Dully noted.

[Tim'sAngel]

I'll answer both of you, don't take it as rudeness, I just hate to make two posts one after the other and clutter the space.

 

 

 

LoL not really my style to cyber yell and I reserve the head blasting for special cases;)

 

Thanks for clarifying things for me. To be honest, it didn't sound like the image I had of you to think you'd validate yourself through him which is why I even reacted. That post though did suggest that. I understand it was space constrained and not very accurate now, so I'm glad to hear all's well.

 

I reread and see what you mean. The reason I asked her about her relationship was because I was wondering if maybe her SO was saying things to her to make her feel less than perfect to him. Although self esteem does not come from ones opinion or affect on us, insecurity can.