She Freaked Out! Ha!

[Moai]

Well, the timing is pretty ironic considering the threads here lately, but I heard from my "just friends" chick again. She called a couple nights ago.

 

She lamented the fact that we aren't friends anymore (go figure) and then went into how much she loves me, and asked me why there was all this antimosity toward her, and blah blah blah. By the time she was finished she was freaking out.

 

I have no feelings one way or the other anymore, so I didn't get emotional at all, I just told her what the deal was. Not only did that feel good, I realized something after it was all over.

 

She actually mentioned another friend of mine, and said she wished our relationship could be more like the one I have with her--"C". I have a great relationship with this girl named "C", but she doesn't use me or give me mixed messages, nor does she call me every day just to chat or any of the other things that "just friends" girls do. I also think that some of it has to do with "C" being younger, prettier, and more popular, but time will tell.

 

I have mentioned it before on these forums, but it bears repeating: Women like this don't seem to get that just because they feel a certain way, it doesn't follow that others will. She says she loves me so much, etc., as if that means something and I am supposed to love her back--platonically, of course. Maybe some men can do that, but I can't. If you want real intimacy, there has to be sex. That is what a relationship is, after all.

 

There is no problem with me wanting sex and her not wanting to give it to me, on her end. That she understands totally, and doesn't understand why that would bother me. But I treat her like every other girl I know, and that doesn't make it. "I love you so much, how can you treat me like just some random chick?" Well, because you ARE just some random chick.

 

Talk is cheap. Lots of people love me. I hear it all the time, so it isn't special and has no real meaning to me at all. In fact, I think people say "I love you" so much in general that those words have no meaning at all anymore. SHOW me how much you love me, by doing things for me, as I do for you. Simple. Anything else is lame and not worth my time. You can start by taking your shirt off.

 

If I am not giving you the response you want, change your behavior.

 

If you want to be the special one, do the things that make you the special one.

 

I did admit to her that some of this was my fault, in that I treated her like the "most special one" early in our relationship. I told her that was wrong of me, and that I gave her "boyfriend" for free and so of course she wouldn't value it as she should, and she freaked on that. It is true, though.

 

Then I told her that I already have a sister, and I don't need another one. I also said that I also have plenty of friends, and one more or less makes no difference to me.

 

So now she's pouting, I guess. Too bad for her.

 

Oh--and I noticed that I don't really like her all that much. Now that my feelings of wanting her are gone, there is little or nothing there for me to care about. Maybe girls like this sense that, and that is why the mixed messages all the time.

 

In the past I would "make it ok" and call her right now to fix it, but I am not going to. I didn't last time, and I am not going to this time. It took her four months to call me after last time. I wonder if she'll break her own record?

[Alexandra]

No offence intended Moai but every time I read a post from you on this particular matter I get the distinct feeling it's a teenager posting. Somehow all this, your defensive techniques, your perspective on emotions, your sometimes simplistic outlook on the matter, all make me have to strive to remember you're a mature man...

[Moai]

No offense taken. I am definitely emotinally immature. I always have been.

 

Maturity has nothing to do with game playing, though. And the fact is, she is very close to my age--only three years younger than I am. And I am only responding to her.

 

Is there a great deal more maturity displayed on the zillions of "no contact" threads here? It doesn't seem like it to me--and not in a bad way. I think when emotions are involved and it gets confusing we all seem a little immature.

 

I am not sure why that is, and it would be great to say and do all the things that "mature" people do, but how many actually do? Not many in my experience.

 

Where my sister works there is more relationship drama than you can shake a stick at, be it extramarital affairs in the parking lot (eewww) to jealous "get even" shagging to god knows what else. Many of those participating are older than I am.

 

One thing I am proud of is that I was able to remain calm in the face of all the tactics that she has used in the past, and explain how I feel. I am sort of at the end of the whole "just friends" fiasco and finally have learned from it. It took long enough. My hope is that my experience and thoughts can help someone else in a similar situation.

 

I do experience a certain amount of joy knowing that my new-found emotional distance is tough on her--which probably makes me petty to an extent. I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel it, though.

 

I really do appreciate your comment very much. If you have a few minutes, could you elaborate a little? Which techniques are defensive? How is my perspective on emotions immature? How is my outlook simplistic? I welcome any and all constructive criticism in this vein, if you'd be kind enough. That is one of the main reasons why I visit these forums.

[darrren12000]

Reading your post, all I hear and feel is anger probably mixed with some embarassment and loss of pride. It does not sound like the prose of someone who has clearly moved on. Instead, it sounds like something a person early on in the recovery process would write. I remember writing a journal about my OA, once I decided I had to do better things with my time. It was soooo angry. It was passionate. It captured my emotions at the time. But it sure as hell did not mean that I was done.

 

Today, many months later, I am in a much different space concerning my "best friend." I talk to him and I am not angry. I am far more passive than before, but not any less engaged than I would be with other good friends. I do not relish in his "pain" like you are apparently doing with your friend. If this person was really your friend how could you say "ha" to her pain? If all you wanted was to have her take her shirt off, why not see a hooker?

 

And this BS was just too much: If you want real intimacy, there has to be sex. That is what a relationship is, after all. In other posts, you come across as alphamale, now you sound like the stereotype of a woman: sex and intimacy are intertwined and inseparable. It doesnt sound like this friend was much of the problem. Instead, it sounds like you have some real difficulty with intimacy. If you must attach sex to "real intimacy," that certainly explains your cravings and addiction to this woman. She made you feel warm intimately, but because you cannot separate intimacy and sex, you clinged and longed for her, giving her all the intimacy she too wanted, but you got burned in the end, because she didnt want to go to bed with you. Um, she doesn't sound that sinister under this analysis.

 

I understand from personal experience the pain of mixed messages in these scenarios. But if you really did care about your friend, then your callous stance is probably a temporary point in the healing process. If you are being honest in saying that all you wanted was a good lay, then it sounds like you are in total denial and these things will just happen to you again with another woman. Hey - most therapists would say if you dont deal with the underlying issues, this stuff will happen again. Expressing anger at your friend is very cathartic, and I certainly did that with my best friend (although not to his face). But at the end of the day, you are still left with your issues; anger doesnt negate them.

 

 

PS: this post is totally meant to help, rather than ridicule you. I hope your offended by my bluntness. Friends dont really break it down the way we need to hear it. Sometimes, a distant, objective party is the best advice. This and other forums certainly helped me (along with therapy and several books).

[Moai]

Reading your post, all I hear and feel is anger probably mixed with some embarassment and loss of pride.

 

Yeah, I probably am still a little mad. And I probably will be every time I talk to her for the rest of my life. But it doesn't gnaw at me or anything. I am still that way about lots of things. Smoetimes an event from my past will pop into my head and I'll beat myself up about it for a few seconds, and then I move on. It happens randomly. Sometimes it's things I haven't thought about in years and years. Call it The Curse Of The Sponge Memory.

 

It does not sound like the prose of someone who has clearly moved on. Instead, it sounds like something a person early on in the recovery process would write. I remember writing a journal about my OA, once I decided I had to do better things with my time. It was soooo angry. It was passionate. It captured my emotions at the time. But it sure as hell did not mean that I was done.

 

In relationships like this closure is difficult, at least for me. But I have moved on in the sense that I don't devote time to her, nor do I extend myself at all. Also maintaining NC is really easy now, but it wasn't at first.

 

Today, many months later, I am in a much different space concerning my "best friend." I talk to him and I am not angry. I am far more passive than before, but not any less engaged than I would be with other good friends. I do not relish in his "pain" like you are apparently doing with your friend. If this person was really your friend how could you say "ha" to her pain? If all you wanted was to have her take her shirt off, why not see a hooker?

 

Because I don't particularly like sex with hookers. I am not any less engaged than I am with most of my female friends than I am with her. It's just that isn't enough for her. And that is unfair. It is difficult to make clear, but the relationship she wants is me as her boyfriend, but I get none of the benefits of being her boyfriend--i.e. sex with her.

 

And this BS was just too much: If you want real intimacy, there has to be sex. That is what a relationship is, after all. In other posts, you come across as alphamale, now you sound like the stereotype of a woman: sex and intimacy are intertwined and inseparable.

 

They are. With men it is just revesed. As alphamale has mentioned on another thread: if you are seeing a woman everyday and talking to her all the time and you aren't getting sex you are getting played. And he is right. She wants to tell me everything that is going on in her mind, hear everything that is going on in mine, drop everything I am doing to chat with her when she calls, do things for her, invite her everywhere, etc. and I can't do that and not have sexual feelings, too. I don't want to tell her how I feel, I want to show her. That's how men are. Plus, I wouldn't even consider doing those things if I didn't have sexual feelings in the first place.

 

I can certainly ahve sex and have it not mean anything, but in those instances neither of us talk about our feeling sor anything, it seems.

 

It doesnt sound like this friend was much of the problem. Instead, it sounds like you have some real difficulty with intimacy. If you must attach sex to "real intimacy," that certainly explains your cravings and addiction to this woman.

 

Of course I attach sexual feelings with real intimacy. I thought everyone did. You can have sex without intimacy, for sure, but you can't have real intimacy with the opposite sex unless you have sex also. Why do you think that when communication starts failing in marriages the sex falls off, too? Why do people get so upset whe they are cheated on? It isn't just that you were physical with someone else, it is that the intimacy you shared has been shattered.

 

By asking me to tell her all my innermost feelings, to include her in all aspects of my life, and to be available to her whenever she needs me to be and yet retaining the right to go and sleep with any random guy she feels like is unfair to me, and yeah, it makes me a little angry. I don't think that it is respectful, for one thing, and it bruises the ego a little, too. Why would I stick around for that?

 

And how important is our intimacy for her? It's all fine and good when I am giving it to her, but when something better comes along (n her mind) adios amigo! All the time and effort put into maintaining the relationship is for naught. At that point, yes, I would've been burned. So I quit before that happened.

 

She made you feel warm intimately, but because you cannot separate intimacy and sex, you clinged and longed for her, giving her all the intimacy she too wanted, but you got burned in the end, because she didnt want to go to bed with you. Um, she doesn't sound that sinister under this analysis.

 

And your analysis is incorrect. We had a very intimate relationship, and there was a physical relationship at the outset. And it wasn't that I got burned, either. She made it clear that she didn't want a relationship, so I said that's fine, and moved on--physically and emotionally. I have been with several women since I met her. But, in so doing I didn't have the emotions available to give her, and she noticed and freaked out, as if I was cheating on her. She wants all of the benefits and none of the work.

 

And I admit some of it is my fault. I fixed her car for her, made her tons of music, took her to shows, cheered her up, invited her to parties--and what has she ever done for me? Zip. Not one single solitary thing. She was using me. I got tired of it, and I won't let her do that anymore.

 

I understand from personal experience the pain of mixed messages in these scenarios. But if you really did care about your friend, then your callous stance is probably a temporary point in the healing process. If you are being honest in saying that all you wanted was a good lay, then it sounds like you are in total denial and these things will just happen to you again with another woman.

 

I did get into it wanting a good lay. No denying that. But I can get that anywhere. I don't think that my stance is all that callous. When she calls I am nice and I am always in a good mood, I listen to what she has to say, and all that. But, if I am out with people and she calls I don't answer--which I used to. If I am invited to do things, I don't automatically try to include her--in large part because there are always women around I may want a relationship with and she gets jealous when I talk to other women in front of her (she can talk to other men, though).

 

Hey - most therapists would say if you dont deal with the underlying issues, this stuff will happen again. Expressing anger at your friend is very cathartic, and I certainly did that with my best friend (although not to his face). But at the end of the day, you are still left with your issues; anger doesnt negate them.

 

In the past I would have yelled and gotten upset, but this time I didn't. I told her very calmly that I do still like her, and that while it was my fault giving her "boyfriend" at the beginning, I don't feel that way now. I do treat just like all the other women I know. She wants to be the special one, but won't do the things that the special one does--namely, be my girlfriend. If you want me, you have to want all of me--my heart included. Or I will find someone who does.

[darrren12000]

all i would say back (and thanx for the response) is that yes -- you can have sex without intimacy, but you can also have intimacy without sex. your statement that you cant have intimacy without sex probably explains why you felt so messed up in this situation and it will lead you to doing it again. just like women who think that sex always comes with intimacy get burned when the guy moves on, you will get burned again when you give intimacy to someone who thinks - great, i got intimacy - but that doesnt mean i have to "put out." i have several intimate friends. and i mean "real intimacy." at least a couple were crazy "friend/lover" scenarios. sounds like you have a fear of intimacy without sex. you only get close when you can get laid? no wonder you felt so burned! that sounds odd and like a perspective that would lead to more of the same thing.....

[Moai]

There are different types of intimacy. I am very close to my sister, ad we have a very intimate relationship, but it is obviously different from the intimacy I would have with a lover.

 

I am very intimate with my male friends, but again it is obviously different.

 

There are certain things that I don't tell anybody, other things that I tell my sister and now one else--and every combination there is.

 

But, if you want to be the one with whom I am most intimate, with whom I share everything, then you want to be my girlfriend.

 

And, it isn't like it is me pining away for her and she is doing nothing to fuel that. There is a dynamic in our relationship that isn't there with others, and she knows that. She's admitted it.

 

When and if she gets a boyfriend, any intimacy we have is gone, as the guy won't want me hanging around, and those feelings of intimacy will be directed at him. As they should be. I won't be the most important anymore.

 

The reverse is true, and that is what is bothering her now. I have found my needs met in other places, and that means I don't have the time to devote exclusively to her, to make her feel like she is the most special person in my life. Not only because she isn't, but because there is only so much to go around.

 

And no, I don't only feel close when I can get laid. As I said before, I have had lots of sex without any intimacy whatsoever. I have also had intimacy without any sex--but not the kind of intimacy that she demands.

 

It is difficult to quanitify, but I am sure you are aware of the difference between how you feel toward your male friends and the man you are dating. the conversations are different--the whole vibe is different. She wants that vibe, but not the things that go with it--and I can't give the vibe without the things that go with it.

 

I can have all the intimacy in the world and still be single, just like I can have all the sex in the world and still be single. It is when the two go together that you lose the "single" tag and are in a relationship.

 

What she is doing, and what I allowed her to do in the past, is to have me be the "until something better comes along."