MM now wants to go to therapy with me...??

[yesmaybe]

For those who don't know the background story ... this is how we started, and then almost 3 weeks ago, JF said he was seriously considering leaving his wife.

 

About a week ago, we had another breakthrough event - our first "real fight."

 

He asked his wife where she sees their future. And she said she wanted to work on it. He won't tell me exactly what he told her, but I'm assuming he said something like, "ok."

 

I was peeved beyond words.

 

Neither of us are yellers. But we can be acrimoniously sarcastic. After slicing through him, I told him to work things out with his wife. And didn't talk to him over the weekend.

 

Then, on Monday, we decided to talk. In my judgement, NC was not a good choice. Turns out, my gut was right - we had our most honest, balanced talk ever. No drama.

 

And that's when he first used to the word marriage. As in: "If and when we marry..."

 

Now, he's talked about having babies with me. But never marriage. And since then, he's used the word more frequently and comfortably.

 

Anyways, after our talk, I decided that the best thing for me to do was to seek professional help. Develop myself. So, I found an American therapist in the city, and set up an appointment immediately.

 

When I told JF about my appointment next week, he then said, "shall I go with you?"

 

I was shocked, and told him, "that means we'll be going together as a couple."

 

And he said, "Yes. I'd like that."

 

At this point, I don't know what to think. But I feel very warm, fuzzy and optimistic. And I'll just leave it at that for now.

[whichwayisup]

You can't 'be' with this guy as a couple, have a real relationship with him when he's still married to his wife.

 

So he is going to go to counselling with you. I'm sure he's going to be going with his wife too. Does that sound fair? He wants to make babies with you, but he is still married, allowing his wife to think that THEY ARE working TOGETHER to fix the marriage, yet he's still with you - Making broken promises...Empty words. He is telling you what he feels at the moment - NOT long term. IF he was serious, he'd be asking his wife for a divorce, not giving his marriage another chance.

 

Your MM doesn't want things to end. He wants two women to fulfill all his needs. He's probably gotten used to this lifestyle and doesn't want it to change.

 

You're letting those warm and fuzzy feelings cloud the whole reality of your situation. It may FEEL real - But it isn't. He is lying to you just as he is lying to his wife. He's lying and fooling himself too.

 

Sooner or later you have to decide if you want to be the OW for a long time or end it for good.

[yesmaybe]

hmm...I know he already went to marriage counseling with his wife a couple years ago.

 

I will definitely ask him if he's going with her again. I hadn't thought of that before. Thank you for putting some sense into me!

[Jessie61]

Yesmaybe,

 

I don't quite get this.... Why would your MM want to go to therapy with you? Especially as "a couple"?

 

Please correct me if I am wrong, but he is still only saying "if and when" in relation to a future with you which is quite vague (and they are ONLY words... not real action!).

 

But is he also saying that he is giving M a go? Or has he told the W that he is NOT trying anymore?

 

Sorry, I am just a bit confused. I can't see how he could do both...

 

In your shoes, I'd worry that all this talk about "if and when we get married...." and offering to go to therapy is a ploy to build up your hopes so that you will hang in there and not dump him. I would be concerned that he is just buying time so that he can decide in his own time about what to do (at best) OR just saying a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g to remain an eternal cake eater (at worst)...

[yesmaybe]

I don't think JF is a cake eater. Instead, he is very scared of taking a risk on me.

 

What he tells me (and I believe him) - the factors of him leaving his wife:

 

20% financial (they have a pre-nup, so his assets are covered. But, until his son is in college, he wants his wife to stay in the house so his son has some stability)

 

30% son (however, he is more and more comfortable with the idea that his son will be ok if there is a divorce)

 

50% us (will we be happy?)

 

Us going to therapy makes me feel optimistic because his main concerns are about our respective demons. His point - even if he leaves his wife to marry me, unless he really improves himself, then the same destructive patterns will repeat. And vice versa.

 

To me, this sounds like he's really looking at the long-term. That he wants both of us to become whole individuals, so we can have a real relationship together.

 

But then again...I may be wrong. Who knows.

[yesmaybe]

As for him working on his marriage...I need to ask him again.

 

But mainly...I think I need to see how things pan out at the therapist. As I've mentioned...JF is stoic, and I've often misunderstood/misinterpreted him because I lay my assumptions on top of his silence.

[whichwayisup]

His actions are not following his words. He says he wants to make babies with you. How is that possible if he is still married to his wife?

 

If you believe him 100%, you're fooling yourself. I'm sure he isn't being "Mean and Malcious" by saying those things and making promises (he knows he can't keep due to the fact he's married) but he IS infact stringing you along by letting you believe "one day" this might happen.

 

If you really want him - Tell him never to call you again and ONLY TO call you when he is divorced. Right now there is NO real reason for him to end his marriage or end things with you.

 

I don't think JF is a cake eater. Instead, he is very scared of taking a risk on me

 

This means, he isn't willing to end his marriage to take the chance with you. You're not a sure thing. He'd rather play it safe and keep his wife around long enough to 'see' how things go with you - And if they don't workout, then he has his wife to go back to. Boy, real nice of him eh?

Yet that also says he either doesn't want to end up alone or it means he still loves his wife - Enough NOT to end the marriage.

 

I wish you see what I see...You can't be objective right now, and I understand that. Just please, don't ignore the redflags. That's the stupidest thing ever - TO go to therapy with you to work on things when he already has a wife.

 

I will add this too, if he does leave her, he needs to be by himself (living alone) so HE can get over things. Just because he gets a divorce doesn't mean he won't grieve and have saddness. I"m sure he will feel alot of guilt by hurting her.

 

People can't jump out of a marriage and then jump into a fullblown relationship so fast. It isn't healthy at all. Plus, what if YOU get hurt? He ends things (leaves her but doesn't get the big D) then he decides he wants her again - Guess what? He dumps you, moves out and you're hurting, alone and wondering what happens next?

 

I hope for your sake he's worth all this hassle. People don't change unless they want to change.

[Jessie61]

I don't think JF is a cake eater. Instead, he is very scared of taking a risk on me.

 

What he tells me (and I believe him) - the factors of him leaving his wife:

 

20% financial (they have a pre-nup, so his assets are covered. But, until his son is in college, he wants his wife to stay in the house so his son has some stability)

 

30% son (however, he is more and more comfortable with the idea that his son will be ok if there is a divorce)

 

50% us (will we be happy?)

 

Us going to therapy makes me feel optimistic because his main concerns are about our respective demons. His point - even if he leaves his wife to marry me, unless he really improves himself, then the same destructive patterns will repeat. And vice versa.

 

To me, this sounds like he's really looking at the long-term. That he wants both of us to become whole individuals, so we can have a real relationship together.

 

But then again...I may be wrong. Who knows.

 

Yesmaybe,

 

OK, fair enough. (However, I still don't understand why he would go to counselling with you to face his demons, as opposed to going on his own. And I do think you need to clarify what he is doing with his W... )

 

If you don't think he's a cake eater, then I am certainly not going to argue with you! You know him, and I don't. But that probably puts him in the bracket of trying to decide for himself what he wants to do and in order to do that he needs time....

 

The question is how much time does he need and how much time do you have? Those two concepts are not necessarily the same....

 

I would just worry about this thing dragging out forever and ever. I have been there myself and I know how soul destroying and undermining it can be... You think that you will never see the end of the misery...

 

So I guess that you need to think about how much time you are willing to put into this? I sometimes compare these situations with handing in an essay in college; if you have 3 weeks to do it, you'll do it in 3 weeks. But if you have 3 years to do it, it will take until that last week before the essay is done!

 

But then again (as you say yourself) I could be wrong!!! Who knows????

 

I just don't want you to only concentrate on HIM and HIS needs. I think you should also make sure that you think about what YOU want and are willing to sacrifice.

 

PS. And don't accept WORDS as a good substitute for real ACTION... If he really means what he says about leaving his W to be with you, then there will have to come a day when he actually does it.... Don't just believe and accept e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g he says...

[yesmaybe]

whichwayisup, jessie61 ... thanks for your comments.

 

He gave himself an ultimatum about 3 weeks ago. He said he will make a go/no go by July. (Yes, yes, July 2006. )

 

I sought out individual therapy first. When he asked to come along, I was a bit hesitant. But I figured the best thing is to "hurry along" the decision process.

 

My plan - tell the therapist about his self-ultimatum. Go together, as a couple, until July. I hope we will both make a wise, informed decision by then. Who knows, maybe I will end up deciding he's not my type after all.

 

While I'm of course worried about getting hurt, I also know that I will be ok no matter the end results. So, what I'm doing is perhaps a bit radical - I'm trusting myself to make decisions that seem rather illogical and make me especially vulnerable. But...I feel comfortable with my choices.

 

Well, we'll see next week. I think this is going to be an interesting 2 months.

[Blind Illusion]

Perhaps I am the lone dissenter, but I was pretty impressed with his idea to go with you.

 

I am assuming that the majority of the reasons you are seeking out help in the first place, are related to him. So let him come. What harm can it do? Seems like it can only help.

[whichwayisup]

It can also do alot of damage. By "acting" like they're a normal couple is only going to give her false expectations and hope for the future. UNTIL his actions SHOW and can backup what he says - Things are not going to change.

[yesmaybe]

My guess is...he wants to join me in therapy to help him decide whether he should leave his wife or no.

 

Our affair is relatively young (about 6 months), and there was a point in the middle where I was happily dating other men and losing interest in JF. Therefore, our relationship has never evolved past the "can we even call this a relationship?" phase. Somedays, we're tight...other days, I distance myself with a shrug.

 

I will see what he has to say.

[Blind Illusion]

It can also do alot of damage. By "acting" like they're a normal couple is only going to give her false expectations and hope for the future. UNTIL his actions SHOW and can backup what he says - Things are not going to change.

 

But, won't a qualified therapist be an excellent mediator in all this. I am thinking that he/she will either help him substantiate his words with actions and give him the impetus to make these changes. Or, the therapist will help her see if he is indeed stalling and help her make changes in her own life.

 

I really can't see damage coming from it. Therapy is just insight. Can we really ever have too much insight in life?

[Blind Illusion]

My guess is...he wants to join me in therapy to help him decide whether he should leave his wife or no.

 

Our affair is relatively young (about 6 months), and there was a point in the middle where I was happily dating other men and losing interest in JF. Therefore, our relationship has never evolved past the "can we even call this a relationship?" phase. Somedays, we're tight...other days, I distance myself with a shrug.

 

I will see what he has to say.

 

That's all you can do. Who knows...the therapist might even want to see you individually as well.

[SoleMate]

My guess is...he wants to join me in therapy to help him decide whether he should leave his wife or no.

If that is the case, I hope to heaven that any counselor/therapist worth the paper their degree is printed on would call the MM on this illogical, destructive strategy. In fact, I would hope that the whistle would be blown on the whole OW/MM r/s. A therapist should be helping people move towards wholeness, mental health, and honest, non-destructive r/s. A therapist should not be helping the MM polish both of the phony faces that he shows to his women.

 

IF your MM wants meaningful, valid advice on staying in his marriage or not, it must come either in IC, or MC with his lawfully wedded spouse.

[yesmaybe]

JF and I have done 2 joint sessions.

I have done 2 individual sessions.

 

Wow...a good therapist is worth every penny.

 

When we met her for the first time, she didn't judge. Instead, she remained a true professional and listened. She asked questions. And then, she said something that really shifted our point of view:

 

"You can see this affair as a catalyst for positive change...whether you stay in this relationship, both of you can become better individuals because of this affair."

 

I am really starting to see the value in that statement. This affair really highlights both of our deep-seated issues. During my individual sessions, I only talk about me. In joint sessions, he mainly talks about himself .

 

Do we talk about our relationship? Of course. And what I've reconfirmed is that life is not so easy, not so black and white. People make mistakes. People act in small, weak ways. But also...there is now a deep appreciation for this relationship, and how it has motivated us to individually examine ourselves.

 

The therapist is not negative about our affair. Quite the opposite - she instead encourages compassion, patience, and understanding for one another. And yes, she is quite a reputable therapist in our area.

 

I have a feeling that she is trying to get us both to work on our individual issues, and then ultimately decide for ourselves what to do with the relationship.

 

Any real breakthroughs? Of course not - not enough time. But it is encouraging to see both of us really confronting a lot of our individual issues. This affair will have a happy ending, no matter what.

 

Anyways, I will update as we go along.

[blind_otter]

Wheeeee!

 

This is the kind of story that makes me so pissed off that there are no national or international standards for therapists to meet. IME good therapy never makes you feel good. The challenging therapist the ones that actually do something always piss you off and challenge your inherint belief systems and false logic. I'm just-a saying.

 

I've had a f*** ton of therapists over the years because of the many psychological issues and PTSD I've had. A f*** ton. And I can tell ya in 3 visits whether the therapist is worth it.

 

Most of them aren't, IMHO. They feed their clients BS to keep them coming back so they get steady income. Of course in the ideal world a therapist isn't concerned about their income. But I digress.

 

Enjoy your journey. IME if it feels good, though, you really aren't getting anywhere. Pain = progress. Challenging beliefs, putting a harsh mirror in front of your face so you see the delusional holding pattern that human beings are so fond of settling into....that's worth the money.

[yesmaybe]

Yikes - I had no idea people feel therapy is supposed to be a certain way!

 

I'm not a psychology major, but I do know there are a lot of schools of therapy. And people react to different styles in different ways. We are going to a cognitive therapist. Who is different from a psychotherapist. Who is different from a religious counselor (pastor, etc.).

 

The point of therapy is that it has to work for YOU. No one else can tell you what therapy should feel or look like. To those who are in therapy right now - please don't think that you should be crying like a baby after each session or go home in extreme pain and doubt. For some people, that's really helpful, but for others (like me), it's not nearly as effective. A

 

Again, you need to go to a therapist who practices the type of therapy, and also has a professional style, that works for you and your specific situation. And often, you will have to go through many to find the right one.

 

There is no one size fits all.

[whichwayisup]

Editted................

[yesmaybe]

No offense taken whichwayisup.

 

First, let me re-iterate - JF is not a hero. He is a very flawed human being. He is coming to therapy with me because he is not capable of making big, life-changing decisions. But he is serious about evolving into a better human being.

 

At this point, he's more comfortable doing joint therapy. It's easier for him to open up in this situation. Maybe, in the future, he will have individual sessions.

 

As for his wife - it's over. One of the issues he's working on - how to prepare himself to totally devestate and hurt a woman he has shared 18 years with. He doesn't want a future with her, and yet he's weak, scared, guilt-ridden. He can"t let go of me, because he is weak, scared, guilt-rudden. Which is why he decided he needs professional help.

 

Again, who knows? Maybe, I will ultimately decide he's not for me. But whatever the case, professional help is helping us move foward and to work on our issues, so that no matter what, we will both be more aware, stronger people.

[blind_otter]

no there isn't. But IME challenging a person's internal schema is always a bit painful. otherwise, it wouldn't be challenging.

 

I know about CBT. I actually got a bulls*** psychology degree, imagine that.