What exactly is a "normal sex life?"

[heelsraw]

I've been asking myself that for over a year now, ever waiting the day when we get back to that place - whatever it is. Despite the fact that I wouldn't wish this predicament on anyone, I was very relieved to see that lots of other people are asking the same question. I guess it means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Once a day? Once a week? Once a month? More than THAT???

 

Unfortunately, for my male libido, I'm in the latter category and I'm not exactly sure why. I've read a lot of posts and there seems to be a hundred different reasons and a lot of different strategies for improving things. I've tried them all, including the sulky male and that REALLY didn't get me anywhere.

 

Here's a brief history on how I ended up here. My wife and I have been married going on 3 years, after an extremely short dating period and an even shorter honeymoon period. Yes folks, you can get pregnant on your first try, no matter how remote the chances seem. We are blessed with we consider (of course) a perfect 2 year old boy. The pregnancy was a difficult one and my wife gained quite a bit of weight, a lot of which she hasn't lost yet. It's really no matter to me (and she knows it) because no matter how old/grey/wrinkled/out of shape she gets, I always see her as the day we were married.

 

We're both in our early 30's, attractive, and had a healthy sex life in both our brief dating period and with other relationships. From my wife's stories and my own personal experiences (a lot of which I do not share) our sex lives were anything but boring.

 

We're now having sex less than once a month. It usually reaches a point where I say to myself "I'm going to see how long I can hold out and see if we ever have sex again." That usually lasts into the 5th week, then I cave. It's a little exhausting because I'm always the one who instigates and when we do finally have sex, it's been soo long that it feels like the first time and I last all of 2 minutes. Similar to other posts I've read, my wife prefers the standard, missionary sex and often times I wonder if she's really enjoying it. She never instigates, so I often feel I'm getting "pity sex" just because it's been so long. Part of me wonders "does she have someone else?" I've been through that situation twice before and both seemed to start out the same way.

 

I've read through a lot of tips from the experts and I've tried most things - romantic dinners, being supportive, etc. etc. I do a lot of cleaning around the house, I take care of our boy, do laundry, buy flowers, and tell her how beautiful she is. She hates to cuddle, so that options out. She's not very touchy feely, so that really doesn't work...what's left??

 

We're planing on having another baby in the near future and, although I'm really looking forward to it (both the baby and the trying) I'm wondering if it's going to get even worse.

 

So what exactly is a "normal sex life?"

[Galaxy]

Doesn't sound like things are going to get any better anytime soon. Some women just don't have the urge anymore much after marriage. Maybe a mind filled with worries, stress and taking care of the home and kids really halts the thought of sex.

I know older married couples who have sex about 3 times a day! Others a few times a week and then there is an unfortunate group where it is almost never.

She might fear getting pregnant again, or possibly because of the weight gain she is uncomfortable getting naked.

[norajane]

There is no normal - everyone's sex life is different. You and your wife get to decide what is normal for you as a couple.

 

You mention you've tried everything...have you tried talking with her about it? What does she say about the frequency and quality of sex? Is she happy with how things are? Have you told her you aren't happy with how things are? How does she respond when you tell her you're unhappy? Does she actually reject you if you initiate sex more often, or are you holding out for her to initiate it?

 

Does she enjoy sex? Does she have orgasms? You mention she only likes missionary (not usually a route to orgasm for a woman) - does she like oral, either giving or receiving? Have you tried vibrators? Does she masturbate? You might be surprised how many women actually don't enjoy sex because they never have orgasms.

 

If she's not enjoying the sex, it ends up making sex a chore for her rather than something to look forward to.

[KnowHowLoveFeels]

We're now having sex less than once a month. It usually reaches a point where I say to myself "It's a little exhausting because I'm always the one who instigates and when we do finally have sex, it's been soo long that it feels like the first time and I last all of 2 minutes. Similar to other posts I've read, my wife prefers the standard, missionary sex and often times I wonder if she's really enjoying it. She never instigates, so I often feel I'm getting "pity sex" just because it's been so long. Part of me wonders "does she have someone else?" I've been through that situation twice before and both seemed to start out the same way.

 

You know, your post strikes a nerve in me. You sound very, very immature!

 

Especially this part:

I'm going to see how long I can hold out and see if we ever have sex again." That usually lasts into the 5th week, then I cave.

 

WTF???? If you want sex, you've got to try much, much harder than 'caving'! Geez! You've only been married 3 years!!

 

If you are still wondering about the 'pity sex' - YES, it is out of pity. I mean, come on, what's there to like in 2 minutes???

 

I have been married 10 years. My husband is the only man I've slept with. And you know what? We still have sex at least 3 times/week! He lasted 2 minutes when we were dating... but he'd better not pull that stunt with me now!

 

Yes, it's a pity that despite you having read on the subject many times and you still are having so little sex!

[Outcast]

You know, your post strikes a nerve in me. You sound very, very immature!

 

I don't agree.

WTF???? If you want sex, you've got to try much, much harder than 'caving'! Geez! You've only been married 3 years!!

 

He means that he waits in hope that she'll express some desire for sex with him and maybe even initiate it.

 

I don't know why you've gone off on this guy, but it's your issue, not his. I suggest you reread all of his post more carefully.

 

To the OP - you have to try talking to her about this and if she won't talk, next step is to see a marriage counsellor - with or without her.

[whichwayisup]

First off - If you want your sex life to get better you need to romance your wife. Make her feel loved, desired and needed. I'm not saying you don't DO those little things that just make her smile and feel good - though if you don't, start doing 'em now.

 

BOTH of you need to make time for eachother, and that means, getting a babysitter, going out to dinner and BEING husband and wife, not just mommy and daddy.

 

If you're feeling neglected in the bedroom, then talk to her about it. Let her know how much you love her and need to that intimacy with her. Holding off for 5 weeks, just to prove a point is really stupid. Sorry, but it is.

Also, without making her feel bad, let her know how important sex is to you. And that she's the only woman you want to be with.

 

I'm sure she's tired and not feeling so sexy. Kids tend to do that to people and sometimes it's hard to go from being a MOM to a WIFE in the bedroom.

 

Take baths or showers together. Have FUN and laugh. Fool around, kiss and cuddle. Lead up to the good stuff that comes later on...

 

I'll say this too, I highly doubt she's cheating on you. When would she have the time? Plus, if you two are considering another child, I doubt too she's out there having an affair on you.

[Presario]

You know, your post strikes a nerve in me. You sound very, very immature!

 

KnowHowLoveFeels, you must be having a bad day. As to being immature: read your first posts on LS.

[heelsraw]

All - Thanks for taking the time to make some comments here. Special thanks to Outcast for defending me a bit here. KHLF - you may want to consider not casting judgement unless you actually know the person and their situation.

 

I have tried talking with her about it and, not that this isn't a valid point for her, she tells me that she just doesn't feel good about herself because of the baby weight she hasn't lost. She also doesn't think that once a month is that abnormal. She also says that she's never really been the type of person to initiate, not that it takes anything fancy with me. Generally a, "I really want to have sex" statement or a long kiss would do it. I'm a pretty big romantic, so I've tried the romantic dinner out/in, baths, etc. etc.

 

As far as the "holding off" I usually don't make a point of doing this. I try to initiate several times throughout the month, but usually get denied. It's not until the 3rd or 4th week that I give up for a period and see if she initiates.

 

NJ - I'll try to sum up the responses for you...I've tried talking about it, but don't want to keep bringining this up on a monthly basis. She typically says some of the responses above. She seems to enjoy sex (2 mins was an exaggeration) which usually consists of oral for her followed by missionary. Some times we try some other positions, but most seem painful (probably due to the timeframes in between.) I do get rejected and she doesn't really initiate. I don't think I've ever seen her masturbate, but can't say for sure if she is or not. On occasion, I've made a surprise night of things consisting of hot tub, massage, and whatever else I can think of, but most times she ends up being too tired to begin with and we often blow it off.

 

Anyway - I think I'll take whichway's approach and try to keep up the romance and husband and wife stuff. Maybe I'm just a little too caught up in thinking this is not normal and we should "fix" this. Maybe focusing more on the other stuff and less on the fact that we rarely have sex, that will work itself out. Thanks again to all.

[Ladyjane14]

We're now having sex less than once a month. It usually reaches a point where I say to myself "I'm going to see how long I can hold out and see if we ever have sex again." That usually lasts into the 5th week, then I cave. It's a little exhausting because I'm always the one who instigates and when we do finally have sex, it's been soo long that it feels like the first time and I last all of 2 minutes. Similar to other posts I've read, my wife prefers the standard, missionary sex and often times I wonder if she's really enjoying it. She never instigates, so I often feel I'm getting "pity sex" just because it's been so long. Part of me wonders "does she have someone else?" I've been through that situation twice before and both seemed to start out the same way.

 

Just because her libido is down doesn't necessarily mean she's thinking of someone else. A woman in her early 30's with small children to care for.... that's probably just a normal lull in libido.

 

You might consider talking to your doctor about a low dose of antidepressent medication. Not necessarily for depression, but the side effects of it can help you with the premature ejaculation. If you're on a small dosage, it shouldn't affect your drive too much. But it will make you feel a bit less frantic regarding your sexual urge. Talk it over with your doctor. There's no point in your wife getting all worked up if the deal is done in two minutes.

 

Meantime, see if you can get the frequency up to twice a week. Having more sex will actually help your wife increase her desire for it, because it will bring up the testosterone level just a little bit. Testosterone levels also rise just before ovulation and just before menses, so take advantage of whatever little increase she has in her libido at those times.

 

And don't worry about who initiates. That's a problem to address later when you're on a more even keel. Your wife's libido is about her... not about YOU. When you internalize her problem, you compound it, because then it becomes psychological instead of physical.

 

It's normal for women to have fluxuations in their libido at different times in their lives. This isn't necessarily because you're doing something wrong or because she doesn't love you. But you DO need to talk about it and address it. Maybe even get some counseling if you can't work it out between the two of you.

[BeFree]

I think you may get some where if you try and add more romance to it. The first couple of years you are with someone, you both lust after eachother and a woman is easy to get excited. Then as time goes by, men try and cut the romance part and try to just go straight for the gold. But it's about that time that the woman needs more romance to get her going. At least this is what I have been experiencing in my relationship. So I think you should talk to her, ask her what gets her excited. Give her massages, take showers together, put on some Barry White, feed her strawberries and champange. Make her feel sexy and excited. This may help and it may turn out to be the best sex ever.

 

I have just told my SO, that the old grab my boob and then get it on is not working for me anymore. I need a little effort on his part that doesn't mean grabbing my hand and putting it on his package.

 

Women want to be kissed, all over. .. pressed up against the wall and felt up , etc.

[Outcast]

Looks like nobody reads posts through. Did any of you happen to see

I've tried most things - romantic dinners, being supportive, etc. etc. I do a lot of cleaning around the house, I take care of our boy, do laundry, buy flowers, and tell her how beautiful she is.

 

I think at this point it's not his problem to fix. If she doesn't feel good about herself and her husband's love and attention aren't helping, it's time for her to go talk to her doctor about her problem. Could be that she's depressed. This poor dude will turn himself into a pretzel trying to interest her but if she's got a problem, it will all be futile.

[BeFree]

Looks like nobody reads posts through. Did any of you happen to see

 

 

I think at this point it's not his problem to fix. If she doesn't feel good about herself and her husband's love and attention aren't helping, it's time for her to go talk to her doctor about her problem. Could be that she's depressed. This poor dude will turn himself into a pretzel trying to interest her but if she's got a problem, it will all be futile.

 

 

House cleaning and and buying flowers are nice gestures. I'm talking about sexual romance. Things that make a woman want to engage in sex. touching, kissing....

[KnowHowLoveFeels]

KnowHowLoveFeels, you must be having a bad day. As to being immature: read your first posts on LS.

 

Guess I was having a bad day... since I did read his post to its completion and I can see so many holes in his story. You know what it is? He boasted about his health and that he's read everything on the subject of increasing sex with his wife. Well, if he did, he'd know that the 2-minutes stunt is not going to do it! Why is he even complaining? I can tell him - if his wife didn't already - that he is not doing anything for her!

 

I stand by my first post. And by the way, yes, I was delusional on my first few posts on LS. Thanks for remembering... again!

[Presario]

House cleaning and and buying flowers are nice gestures. I'm talking about sexual romance. Things that make a woman want to engage in sex. touching, kissing....

 

I tried that many times with my wife. We have had sessions of kissing, showering, massaging, touching, cuddling, nice dinner, nice movie, etc. Doesn't work. She is just happy without sex.

 

Heelsraw, get used to it. She will not want more sex.

 

Today my wife told me that if she was single she wouldn't care about sex. She says sex isimportant to her because I want it, but it doesn't mean we have sex, so you see how "important" can be "unimportant". The last time we had it was... roughly 2 months ago.

[Presario]

Meantime, see if you can get the frequency up to twice a week. Having more sex will actually help your wife increase her desire for it, because it will bring up the testosterone level just a little bit. Testosterone levels also rise just before ovulation and just before menses, so take advantage of whatever little increase she has in her libido at those times.

 

Ladyjane14, how can you increase sex if this person doesn't want it? How can I do it if my wife tells me point-blank to drop it?

[norajane]

I have tried talking with her about it and, not that this isn't a valid point for her, she tells me that she just doesn't feel good about herself because of the baby weight she hasn't lost.

 

Don't discount this. If she's self-conscious, she can't relax when she is naked, and she can't relax enough to enjoy sex. She's probably focusing on this while you're having sex, so she just ends up feeling worse about herself.

 

She might also be depressed about her weight, and depression has a way of killing sex drive. Tallking to a doctor might help both concerns.

 

She also doesn't think that once a month is that abnormal. She also says that she's never really been the type of person to initiate

 

This doesn't seem to match up with this:

 

We're both in our early 30's, attractive, and had a healthy sex life in both our brief dating period and with other relationships. From my wife's stories and my own personal experiences (a lot of which I do not share) our sex lives were anything but boring.

 

I get it that you didn't see each other very long before you married, but how was your sex life then? Did she ever initiate? Did things change after the marriage, or after the baby? If it's only since the baby, all of the mommy stresses combined with her weight concerns could be the source of her lack of interest.

 

She seems to enjoy sex (2 mins was an exaggeration) which usually consists of oral for her followed by missionary.

 

Seems? You don't know for sure? Could be the problem is she's not getting enough pleasure out of sex. You didn't answer whether she has orgasms. If she's not having orgasms with you, and she feels bad about herself becasue of her weight, then she's really getting very little out of sex. She's not enjoying it enough to want to have sex.

 

Some times we try some other positions, but most seem painful (probably due to the timeframes in between.)

 

I don't understand what this means. Why would some positions hurt because it's been a while in between sex? My SO and I are long distance at the moment, we've been seeing each other about once a month, and no positions hurt. Nothing hurts. Sex isn't normally painful. This pain is something you need to know more about. Ask her.

 

I don't think I've ever seen her masturbate, but can't say for sure if she is or not.

 

You've never talked about masturbation? If she did before your marriage and isn't doing it now, that could be another sign of depression or exhaustion.

 

On occasion, I've made a surprise night of things consisting of hot tub, massage, and whatever else I can think of, but most times she ends up being too tired to begin with and we often blow it off.

 

If she's always that tired, it's another reason for her to get a physical. Either that, or she needs more time to herself. Getting a regular babysitter, or hiring a mother's helper a few afternoons a week, and taking weekends away or vacations can help her get more rest, and can help the two of you reconnect.

 

Anyway - I think I'll take whichway's approach and try to keep up the romance and husband and wife stuff. Maybe I'm just a little too caught up in thinking this is not normal and we should "fix" this. Maybe focusing more on the other stuff and less on the fact that we rarely have sex, that will work itself out. Thanks again to all.

 

It's often the case that when there are sexual problems in a marriage, there are other underlying issues in the relationship that are causing them. You are right to focus on understanding what those other issues are and trying to resolve them. If you can work through those together, it's likely your sex life will reflect the positive changes in your relationship.

[BeFree]

I tried that many times with my wife. We have had sessions of kissing, showering, massaging, touching, cuddling, nice dinner, nice movie, etc. Doesn't work. She is just happy without sex.

 

Heelsraw, get used to it. She will not want more sex.

 

Today my wife told me that if she was single she wouldn't care about sex. She says sex isimportant to her because I want it, but it doesn't mean we have sex, so you see how "important" can be "unimportant". The last time we had it was... roughly 2 months ago.

 

If you have truly tried everything, then she should she a doctor. The can help her with hormone levels.

 

Has you wife been on birth control for many years? It is a fact the this causes a very low sex drive.

[KnowHowLoveFeels]

Norajane,

The inconsistencies in heelraw's story was what I was ticked off about... and there were many as you pointed out in your post! Somebody, please tell this guy to stop putting the blame on his wife and see his own doing in the sex-less marriage!!!!

[SoleMate]

Hey folks, let's make sure we advise people, not blame or excoriate them. Particularly on slight evidence and possible misreading...

 

Heelsraw, you definitely have a serious marital problem on your hands. It is a familiar story which we have heard...oh, about 1000 times in the last few years on Loveshack. Please search LS for other responses. I believe that all blame and anger must be wiped away from BOTH you and your wife for this problem to be fully addressed.

 

Given the complexity, sensitive nature, and importance of the problem to the longterm success of your marriage and family, I recommend making the effort to read The Sex-Starved Marriage by Michele Weiner-Davis. I think both you and your wife will recognize your stories in the book. Actually, buy two copies and ask your wife as yout top-priority request to read one copy while you read the other.

 

Whatever you do, don't give up until you have given this EVERYTHING you've got. It's THAT important.

[Ladyjane14]

Ladyjane14, how can you increase sex if this person doesn't want it? How can I do it if my wife tells me point-blank to drop it?

 

Just because she tells you to "drop it", doesn't meant that it's incumbent upon you to do so. Know what I mean?

You're a grown man, and she ain't your mama! She doesn't get to dictate your topic of conversation. Some things are worth standing your ground on.

 

I've got an old quote for you from Flavius. This guy has a great attitude. He refuses to be offended. He recognizes that the low libido is his wife's issue.... not his. So, he doesn't internalize it.

 

I've learned over 20 years not to expect anything spontaneous to happen, ever (that was a bitter pill for me.) She has learned not to make faces or act inconvenienced at the suggestion that she will soon be in ecstasy. I learned not to get hurt feelings during the ramp-up period.

 

Yeah, your wife is going to be defensive, maybe even combative. But that doesn't stop you from expressing YOUR needs. You have a responsibility in the relationship to say what your ENs are. Otherwise, you're not being forthcoming with your issues, right?

 

You want sex twice a week. Put the issue up on the table for negotiation. If it comes to the point where you aren't getting ANY sexual attention..... up the ante, go for counseling or sex therapy. If that doesn't get it..... see a lawyer and find out what your options are. And if that doesn't work... DIVORCE her and find a mate who is willing treat you better.

 

But having a problem and doing NOTHING about it, isn't going to address or solve the problem. If you change nothing, than nothing changes.

[KnowHowLoveFeels]

I tried that many times with my wife. We have had sessions of kissing, showering, massaging, touching, cuddling, nice dinner, nice movie, etc. Doesn't work. She is just happy without sex.

 

Have you tried blindfolding her? Sometimes, I find that if I close my eyes, I can concentrate on sex better.

 

Heelsraw, get used to it. She will not want more sex.

 

I agree.

 

Today my wife told me that if she was single she wouldn't care about sex. She says sex isimportant to her because I want it, but it doesn't mean we have sex, so you see how "important" can be "unimportant". The last time we had it was... roughly 2 months ago.

 

If she doesn't have a medical problem or too much daily stress, then I don't know why she'd not want sex. It is a myth that women do not care about sex. I think about sex almost as much as my husband does (which is several times every day). And I am sure I'm not extraordinary! I

 

May I suggest marriage counseling for you? It seems that she has some hidden angst regarding sex or some unresolved resentment toward you.

[Ladyjane14]

And I am sure I'm not extraordinary!

 

Sure you are! Why not?

 

Seriously though, not all women are alike in this. And even the same woman won't be steady in her libido all her life.

 

If I wasn't making a conscious effort, I could go without sex for months and never notice the lack of it. What I've learned though.... is to make a "conscious effort".

[Presario]

Thank you for replying to my posts. Before I go on with my responses I should write about one thing: regular intercourse is very painful for my wife. We have attempted it a few times: it was nice for me, for her it was hell. We have been trying for nearly 2.5 years with little success. When I write "sex" I don't mean regular intercourse, but rubbing our genitals.

 

We suspect that she has vaginismus. She visited her doctor, but he insinuated she's a loonie. She will visit another doctor soon.

 

If you have truly tried everything, then she should she a doctor. The can help her with hormone levels.

 

BeFree, I think we tried many things. Aside from the standard romance, I tried a few other things. I bought two sex books. One was on erotic massage and acupressure. We tried a few sessions, nothing happened and we got tired and irritated with it.

 

Then I got another book: "New Joy of Sex." I would show her some positions and asked if we could try some. Most of them she found humiliating and that was the end of the story. I threw away the books because they got on my nerves.

 

Then I got some wine, and hoped that it would help. She doesn't drink any alcohol and she refused to drink it.

 

I got a movie on sex positions. Surprisingly, she wanted to watch it. Unfortunately, when I saw what others do and that they have fun, I got mad and stopped watching the movie.

 

Then I tried to talk her into watching some erotic movie with me and she refused, because it would humiliate her. I don't understand why.

 

So maybe masturbating together? Unfortunately, she doesn't feel like masturbating and it would be humiliating for her.

 

I did some internet research on what might be wrong (that's how I got to LS). One of them was VulvarDisorders @ Yahoo Groups, which I recommend -- traffic there is quite large and people there are helpful and friendly.

 

My wife has tried too: she visited doctors with her pain. She went for a painfull medical procedure that was supposed to alleviate her pain. It didn't help.

 

We were advised on VulvarDisorders that she should use dilators. My wife didn't want to use them at firts, but finally decided to go for them. She has been using them for more than three months, and they help a little.

 

As to hormone levels: while it perhaps could help, I don't like the idea of medicating her just for my pleasure. Playing with the hormone system seems dangerous.

 

Has you wife been on birth control for many years? It is a fact the this causes a very low sex drive.

 

Yes, she has been on it for more than two years. But the frequency of sex dropped before she started taking them. Going on pills was her decision. I told her that I would be happy to use condoms, because, again, I don't like her messing with her hormone system.

[Presario]

Ladyjane14, thanks for replying. You are my hero @ LS.

 

Just because she tells you to "drop it", doesn't meant that it's incumbent upon you to do so. Know what I mean? You're a grown man, and she ain't your mama! She doesn't get to dictate your topic of conversation. Some things are worth standing your ground on.

 

Sure, and so I was talking about this for years. Then I tried to help. I added argument as another tool some time ago. We have frequent fights. It just kills the whole mood. Roughly every month we have a huge one day fight with me being moody and irritable. I hate this state. I wasn't that aggressive and moody before. But that's my problem. I try to deal with it by masturbation, porn and excercising. Mind that before our sex problems started, I would think that porn is below me. I'm just about to give up hope for sex. A few years of working and fighting didn't help.

 

He recognizes that the low libido is his wife's issue.... not his. So, he doesn't internalize it.

 

It might be about me. She used to enjoy it with me four years ago. Maybe if she got someone else, she would like it? However, she says it's not like that.

 

But that doesn't stop you from expressing YOUR needs. You have a responsibility in the relationship to say what your ENs are. Otherwise, you're not being forthcoming with your issues, right?

 

I think that over the years I expressed my needs clearly and so directly that I made her cry many, many times.

 

You want sex twice a week. Put the issue up on the table for negotiation.

 

Negotiation didn't help. We tried to reach some compromise, like "let's try to go to bed every week." But it got to the point when she would say "I just don't feel like doing it," "let's do it some other time," "I want to sleep," "don't touch by breasts any longer, because you irritated them."

 

After reading your posts, my wife decided that we should reach some new compromise, and she asked me what I want. Obviously, I would love to finally have a regular intercourse with my wife, but I know it's unrealistic. So we decided that we will try to rub against each other once a week.

 

And if that doesn't work... DIVORCE her and find a mate who is willing treat you better.

 

I understand you, but for now divorce is not an option.

 

But having a problem and doing NOTHING about it, isn't going to address or solve the problem. If you change nothing, than nothing changes.

 

I'm doing something new: I choose to take it easy, not to expect anything, take long walks, masturbate, watch porn, run, swim, relax more.

 

I'm happy, however, that other parts of our marriage are good: we are faithful; love, support and respect each other; share responsibilities.

[enoughisenough]

The truth is that many women cannot orgasm during intercourse. This means you have to give extra attention to the clitoris or perform oral or use vibrators to get her off. If she is used to not getting off and doesn't enjoy sex without an orgasm, of course she will probably not feel the urge to do it.

 

And 2 minutes- well we all know she definitely is not getting satisfied. It takes a long time and a lot of work to get some woman off.