Getting Seperated...totally lost

[ilmw]

Hi everyone,

 

I have been looking at others stories and can't believe how much the same some of them are to my own. At first I was afraid to admit to anyone what is going on, but its been 2 months now and I don't care anymore who knows.

 

My story. My DW and I have been married 2 years. We have a 5 yr old son together and she has a 12 yr old son from prior relationship. We have been together for 7 years. Like everyone, we started off in fairy tale land. But..things changed shortly after we got married..about 1.5 years ago. I do not take 100% blame for what happned but I can only explain myself. I am in law enforcement, and sometimes had a hard time letting go off work when I got home. I found myself always talking about it. I could never seem to shut it off. I was also very frustrated at work as some things I did not agree with. I started going into myself to a very dark place, I was depressed, and I relied on my DW to make me happy when I could not make myself happy. I leaned on her to much. We never realy had fights, and so I thought everything was fine. I was so in to my own misery that I could not see what I was doing to my DW and the boys. Then in early April my DW hit me sideways by telling me she loves me but is not in love with me anymore. She wants to sell the house and get her own house with the boys. At first I fell apart. 2 weeks in a panic state. Then I thought that I must be a man and not let the kids see what was going on. I thought with begging and pleading I could get her back. I then decided to research this topic and at this date have read at least 4 books on this subject and viewed this site. I have also started counselling. My DW and I started Marriage counselling together, but after the first visit, she decided that the she did not think the relationship would work. She will now, not go with me. From everything I have read and what I have seen here, I have a good grasp of what I need to do, but I am going crazy!! I love my wife so much. It's been 2 months since I kssed her. I know I helped to make a mess of what so many thought was the perfect couple. (No one on either side of our families or friends can believe this is happening) Sorry for rambling, but I need to get this off my chest. I have been in two prior quasi serious relationships. Both ended terribly..I, after a short while got over them. Both of those relationships were full of childish mind games and yelling. What I can't explain to my DW is that even at the worst time in our relationship..it was still better than the best times in any other relationship I have been in.

 

After all that..I guess all I am looking for is a friendly word and maybe some guidance what elso I can do?

[dgiirl]

I agree with Gunny. Continue with the individual counselling. Lord knows i needed it and probably will go back in the near future. I think you're doing everything else you possibly can. Stop begging/pleading/bribing etc and focus on yourself and your problems. You cannot control your wife's actions, the only thing you can control is how you react to them. You already know something about yourself that needs changing, and that's the depression and the mental dump of all your daily problems on your spouse. Work on those issues and find alternative methods for dealing with your stress. Regardless of the outcome of your current relationship, this needs to be dealt with. It will either improve your marriage, or make a better relationship next time around.

[ilmw]

Hi again.

 

I went to counselling today by myself. I told eveything and it felt realy good to get it of my chest. I told him out about this place and all I have been reading. He said I was doing good and seemed impressed. I do feel better about myself, but my DW does not seem to notice. he made the coment the other night that I am to nice. She is not used to it. (Wow...I thought have I realy been that much of a jerk!) I replied that "I was just being me." I did not say to her...because I was taken aback.. I have not been myself for along time.

 

I know I can't change her mind on what she wants to do..but... It is so hard...

 

Speaking with the counsellar I have discovered that I have some unresolved grief due to my grand parents death. Both died (differnt dates) over 10 years ago. I could not attend either funeral because of work or money (they lived in England) Apparently I have felt this grief and some guilt for over 10 years. I was very close to both of them, and now know why I can't look at photos of them. Weird huh??

 

It is so strange how we men get ourselves into these messes. So many of the same stories, (I do mean the same).

 

Gunny you are right...we men get no training on relationships. I thought I was doing good....now on reflection and from reading and personal reflection..I see how I let my end of the side down.

 

I live each day as it comes with no expectation. Maybe one day when my DW lets her self have time to reflect on what she wants...she may see the positives of what she has? I guess all I can do is be patient. This is hard to do because our house is up for sale and we have had several people in to look at it. Oh well... Maybe this is some big test? Who knows.

 

Thanks for listening

[ilmw]

dgiirl...Sorry I meant to thank you for your reply.

[ilmw]

Hi,

 

I need someones opinion on something.

 

My DW told me last night that we were having a walk through our house for potential buyers today. I took the dogs to a local park while she took our kids with her to do some shopping. While I was in the park, she calls me on the cell phone and tells me the kids are playing in the park. The same park I am in. Its a big park with woods and trails. That is why I took the dogs there. She had the choice of many other parks with play grounds to take the kids too. She tells me that the kids wanted to know if I wanted to go out to lunch at a local restaurant. Of course I said yes. When I was speaking with the boys they seemed surprised that we were going out to lunch. I guess my questions is, should I be thinking my DW wanted this (for me to come) or what???

 

We have always mantained a calm atmosphere in the house, but she always seems stressed or sad. I have been working on my own happiness level and think I have done a pretty good job. I am happier generally all the time compaired to how I once was before this all came to light. From all my reading....up to book #5, I am following all the steps to my own recovery. I am walking in grace and taking care of myself. I am maintainning the most positive outlook I can possible keep with out having any expectations...hard as it has been.

 

It just seems some times she might change her mind...then she becomes distant again. With todays meal which was very nice she did not appear to have changed her outlook.... At the end of the meal..I thanked her for the meal and that was pretty much it as I had to get home and get ready for work... but the fact that she invited me on the premis that the kids wanted me to come is confusing.

 

I must add that in our over 7 years together, she has never played stupid mind games....

 

Can anyone shed some light on this??

[amaysngrace]

Maybe she is trying to keep it civil between you or maybe she is trying to butter you up so you are more apt to give her what she wants in the divorce.

 

Whatever you do, don't kid yourself into thinking she wants to reconcile.

 

Just be glad you got to spend time with the kids, for whatever reasons, and try not to read too much into it.

 

Lots of luck to you.

[Gunny376]

Your emotionally vulenerable ~ very much so ~ right now ~ and emotionally your like a starving begger grasping for crumbs. In your current state of mind ~ its possible to turn even the least little thing into a positive of some kind.

 

The best predictor of current and future behavior ~ is past behavior.

 

The best thing you can do ~ really the only thing you can do ~ is present yourself in her eyes ~ as being strong~minded, positive, up-beat. I don't care if your crying your eyes out every night. Whatever you do ~ don't let her know you doing any other than being strong-minded.

[uksurfer]

Yeah, what Gunny said.

 

And seriously, unless she says something like "jeez, I've been an absolute bitch, I take back everything that I said, and I really, really want us to make another go of things", ignore everything.

 

Hanging on her every word, whether you understand whatshe's trying to communicate or not, is just gonna screw you up even more.

 

Once your crying is out of the way, act like it's over. Like you can handle it. Like it's really no big deal to you. Like you're getting on with your life. That's when she'll sit up and take notice. And even if she doesn't, there'll be someone who will.

[Gunny376]

Yeah, what Gunny said.

 

And seriously, unless she says something like "jeez, I've been an absolute bitch, I take back everything that I said, and I really, really want us to make another go of things", ignore everything.

 

Hanging on her every word, whether you understand whatshe's trying to communicate or not, is just gonna screw you up even more.

 

Once your crying is out of the way, act like it's over. Like you can handle it. Like it's really no big deal to you. Like you're getting on with your life. That's when she'll sit up and take notice. And even if she doesn't, there'll be someone who will.

 

Tell it like it is Brother ~ don't hold back! Tell it like it is! Amen!

[uksurfer]

Tell it like it is Brother ~ don't hold back! Tell it like it is! Amen!

 

<jimmy_swaggart_mode>I have seeeeen the liiiiiight</jimmy_swaggart_mode>

[ilmw]

Hi again,

 

What you all say makes sense. Its amazing how I can become such a needy child when I am handed something so small.

 

I am not beating myself up though...It is so easy to forget what I am striving for.

 

I am taking my kids to the movies tomorow. She was going to come but now does not want to. It hurt at first...but several deep breaths later I decided to go with the boys with out her. I can have fun without her....

 

I realy appreciate the advice about standing tall...Also the acting if I don't care. That still needs working on ....but I will do it. For my own sake. I can't believed what a roller coaster ride my life has become....but its smoothing out the longer this goes on....I am taking charge of my feelings and emotions...actually I have not had any feelings for anything but my DW and kids for along time... Its weird how something like this can wake you up to everthing else that is going on around you.

 

All I know is... what is going on with my life right now is very painful...but I am becoming a better person for it.

 

Thanks again

[Gunny376]

In every man's life when it comes to women ~ they are three "Great One's" that come along and into your life about once every ten years. Most men don't know this until they've lived at least thirty years or more. Sometimes they come all at once ~ it happens that way sometimes.

 

Me? There are five things I absolutely will not stand for and tolerate:

 

I will NOT be lay a hand upon in an aggressive manner

I will NOT be cheated

I will NOT be lied to

I will NOT be disrespected

I will NOT have my integrity questioned

 

I don't do these things to other people ~ and I won't let other people do them to me

 

What was ~ WAS! What is ~ is! And what will be ~ will BE!

 

If crying, begging, pleading, arguing couldn't make her stay ~ it sure as HELL won't make her come back!

 

If through the years, you prioritized everything and everyone else in your life ~ (as I did), and put them before you wife ~ regardless of the reason, why, how come, circumstances ~ this is the "Why" of where you find yourself. But, don't beat yourself up over it. More than likely ~ you just didn't know ~ that combined with being up to your azz in alligators, snakes, snapping turtles, and headhunters makes you to tend to forget that when you started out your initial objective was to drain the swamp.

 

You started out on a journey of life together ~ with good intentions ~ and as we all know too well the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Then came along the wants, the needs, the material possessions, the demands of modern day family life with children, the job ~ then the carrer ~ the demanding boss always wanting more and more and more, better, better, and better. The comes the bills, the debts ~ just because of the demands of the day to day ~ the idealic world of true and everlasting love fades to black.

 

Don't beat yourself up ~ there are literally thousands upon thousands of people out there that are just waiting just outside your front door, eagarly awaiting the opportunity to do the job for you ~ just to see the look on your face.

 

Don't "would have ~ could have ~ should have"! This is a no-win game. And, you could literaly spend years playing it.

 

Its not all her fault, and its not all your fault. You, she mainly fell into a "life~trap" Nothing in life prepares us for the day to day reallity of married life. Not high school ~ not college ~ few if any colleges offer and classes in the subject. Our parents are the best of role models ~ many of them are on their second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh marriages.

 

People say ~ look at our grandparents ~ our great grandparents etc. They weren't successful either ~ they just stayed married because the laws at the time were different and were in favor of the man ~ way in favor of the man. Sixty ~ seventy years ago the man got EVERYTHING and the wife was left destitute without the children!

 

Usually, by the time things have deteroriated to the point that they are with your wife ~ and you, there's too much water over the damn and under the bridge. Women don't just up and leave their husbands, its been on their minds for a very, very long time. They've been dissatisfied for a very, very long time. They've been un-happy ~ for a very, very long time. They've been miserable for a very, very long time. They've been hurting deep inside ~ an emotional pain ~ a deep emotional hurt they've been nursing for a very, very long time. They've tried coping with it, dealing with it, overcoming it, neglecting their wants, their needs ~ all for a very long, long time.

 

People do what works ~ they don't do what doesn't work. Me, myself and I, now that I've gone through it, been through it, have experienced it ~ and sixteen years the otherside of it ~ I can look back with 20/20 vision and see in her own inept ways, my XW was screaming, shouting, waving flags, whistling, setting off flares, sending up rockets telling me that the train was coming and I was standing on the tracks ~ and that I needed to get my azz off the tracks before I got not just ran over, but got caught up in the train wreck!

 

You'll see it one day ~ as well ~ it will be a revelation to you when it comes. The sooner the better!

 

If you've a chance in Hell of getting back with your wife ~ you absolutely must project yourself as a pillar of strength, determination, resolute, .....................in short you cannot afford to be weak minded, nor weak spirited, nor weak hearted. In short, you've got to project an image of "manning~up" Of being a man! Not a wuss, about all of this ~ no matter how hard it is, no matter how much you sit alone in your bedroom and crying your ever loving eyes out ~ no matter how hard it brings you to your knees.

 

Don't equate ~ manning up ~ with being a masculine a**h*** ~ equate it to being a "man" and "manning up" while be loving and caring to your STBXW and children. Its hard ~ damn hard ~ all freaking day hard ~ but you've got to be strong. For her, for your children, for yourself.

 

One of the people that I've meet in my life ~ was a middle age ~ high school drop out ~ black women. A freaking pillar of strength! Knew nothing BUT hard times all her live. I will forever ~ remember the night she told me (I was her supervisor) "Just do the right thing! You KNOW what it is! God wrote it upon your heart the day you were born! Just DO the right thing! You know what it is!"

 

Be a man, but don't forget to do the right thing ~ but in the course of doing so ~ in the course of doing right by your STBXW, and children ~ "man up" and be a man.

 

Being a "man" isn't always easy! Not when you sit down and think about it and give some thought to it. It means staying in a job you hate, working for a boss that you hate! Its about sucking it up~! Its about just "dealing with it" and "coping with it later" (AKA ~ Delayed Stress Syndrone)

 

You? Her? You just got caught up in the day to day! It happens! It sucks! But, at the end of the day ~ that's the way it is!

 

You? You were ~ are a bigger part of something that matters, that means a lot to a lot of people. You? You were ~ are a part of something that is larger than yourself. Some people go to bed everynight ~ wondering if they made a differance ~ you my friend DID! And you KNOW it! You? You're a part of something GREATER than yourself!

 

Go in peace!

 

Go with God!

 

Live Long and prosperous!

 

God Bless

 

Gunny!

[ilmw]

I gotta say....I am glad you have taken the time to give me your thoughts....

 

You do have away of making things clearer. Your last reply just got me out of the dumps....and I feel stronger for it..

 

I think I am doing what you suggest...but it is great to hear someone else say it...it realy helps.

 

Of course I hope my DW will maybe someday see me in a better light...it may be after she has moved out with the kids?? Who knows....? I have to stop worrying about it and as you say "Man Up"

 

Coming here helps to give me strength...reading others stories and seeing how I don't realy have it that bad....but we are all selfish...and other peoples hurt is not our own. We feel our own pain ourselves and it is harder to escape from ourselves...

 

Manning Up!

 

Thx again.

[uksurfer]

Of course I hope my DW will maybe someday see me in a better light...it may be after she has moved out with the kids??

 

That last part - "it may be after she has moved out with the kids". The chances are that she's gonna find living by herself with the kids tough. It's likely that she's gonna need your help. This is a big spot where you will get the chance to man up.

 

My wife has actually moved out and *left* the kids with me. f***. I just realised that it means now she doesn't need my help with anything at all. I'd be manning up for nothing!!

 

Damn, why couldn't I have found me a normal wife?

[Gunny376]

My wife has actually moved out and *left* the kids with me. f***. I just realised that it means now she doesn't need my help with anything at all. I'd be manning up for nothing!!

 

You already have, you already have "maned UP!" You are and have done all you can do ~ what more can you do? Whatmore can anyone do ~ other than what you've already have done?

[uksurfer]

You already have, you already have "maned UP!" You are and have done all you can do ~ what more can you do? Whatmore can anyone do ~ other than what you've already have done?

 

Yeah, you're right. Again.

 

Y'know, I've also been thinking about how I might have failed to meet her emotional 'needs', which is apparently why all this has happened. I just can't think how, or where I went wrong. And that's because I didn't.

 

She's not leaving me. She's bailing from everything. The kids, the marriage, the house, the debt (which is mostly her fault anyway).

 

I'm not actually sure there's anyone on the planet who could meet her emotional needs, to be honest.

[ilmw]

Well today is not so great.

 

STBXW left open her e-mail when she went out today. I did something I am not proud of...i checked her web history! She has been checking astrology pages with love matches etc... Her star sign and scorpio!! Im not a scorpio!!!!!

 

I also found some poems she wrote! I don't think they are for me... In the past she has written poems for herself to express herself....but this is too much!

 

I am going to confront her...when she gets home..in about an hour.

 

She has shown no signs of an affair or cheating...she can speak with me and we are meant to be going out with friends in the near future together...so maybe it is only an crush she has on somebody??!! She shows no signs of NEEDING to get away from me. She sais the hosue may not be sold until Sept Oct...and she showed no signs of stress...There have been no secret phone calls that I can't explain!

 

I have been cheated on before...and it did not take long for her to lose it because of her guilt...my DW does not show any of the these signs! So I have no idea the extent of this...

 

I feel like crap for spying...but now I know why she may be so distant!

 

I read some of the marriage builders stuff...plan A and B. I still love her very much and still truly believe that we could have a wondrful marriage...

 

I will stay calm when I confront her...I have had enough practice in doing this for that past couple of months...but this has to be brought out in the open!

 

I will not be taken for a fool.

 

Anyone with any ideas please let me know...cause I still don't want to lose my family.

 

She may be in some kind of fantasy land right now...but from what I have read and seen...it will coming crashing down around her. It happened to my ex-

She cheated on me, got married and pregnant...then she visits my mothers place a few months ago aout of the blue...and tells her when she sees my wedding photos...."you don't know what you have untill you lose it" Woman are nuts!! (No offence to any ladies reading this) I'm just realy feeling hurt now.

 

I feel better getting that off my chest.

 

I fad a 20 minutes spazz attack after I found her web page stuff (cried) etc...god I can't believe I am admitting to all this stuff...but it feels good to show I have feelings... instead of hidding them deep inside me.

 

I actually prayed to god for the first time in along time yesterday. Wow... I have been so changed by this entire experience...I am a better person for it...but at what cost!

 

Thanks for taking the time to read my rants.

[CryingCanuck]

Those feelings are totally genuine and they go deep.

I've been where you are , actually in many ways I'm still there and will be for some time. Keep up your spirit as much as possible and have faith that things will eventually get better in the future. Those thoughts are hard to imagine but they are what keeps me waking in the morning and going to work and keeping my sanity and good luck and yes praying might help.....

[tonyp56]

Don't' tell her you snooped. Relax, take some breaths and let it go. Go to her tonight, like nothing happened. I know that you want to know, but you can't force her to tell you, give her the opportunity to tell you, nothing more. It will just drive her away from you further. And if you want to repair this marriage, that is the last thing you want to do.

[Gunny376]

Don't' tell her you snooped. Relax, take some breaths and let it go. Go to her tonight, like nothing happened. I know that you want to know, but you can't force her to tell you, give her the opportunity to tell you, nothing more. It will just drive her away from you further. And if you want to repair this marriage, that is the last thing you want to do.

 

Like Tony said! "Man~up!" As hard as it is ~ "man~up~!"

[Gunny376]

Those feelings are totally genuine and they go deep.

I've been where you are , actually in many ways I'm still there and will be for some time. Keep up your spirit as much as possible and have faith that things will eventually get better in the future. Those thoughts are hard to imagine but they are what keeps me waking in the morning and going to work and keeping my sanity and good luck and yes praying might help.....

 

Vets know Vets, vets understand vets. Vets understand the language of vets! We vets understand the language of vets. We need not speak ~ but look in each other's eyes! And, we KNOW! You know ~ I know! We speak the language of vets~!

[dgiirl]

I think I'm a little further than all of you guys, (16 months), but trust me guys, it DOES get better. I honestly never thought or believed I would be where I am today in such a short time. I went from crying every second 24/7 for months and months, to I cant wait to move and put this behind me! I was in torture for the first 6 months, with the constant dreams and constant thinking of him every minute. I'm lucky I didnt lose my job because I wasnt very productive. Thankfully, I have a very understanding boss/friend. At the 6 month mark, i made some progress, but I was still crying (maybe every two days for an hour or so). It gradually got better and better. And I notice the improvements come in chunks. So I'll be at one level in the healing process, and then make a huge jump. Then usually relapse a little, but work my way back up. The crying sprees are shorter and shorter. So please please trust me when I say that no matter how much pain you are feeling right now, it WILL go away. Just have faith. You will become stronger because of this experience. You will know yourself so much more. Just take back control over your life and keep putting one foot in front of the other. Actively force yourself to stop thinking about things that hurt you, and actively force yourself to think of ways to improve your life, things you always wanted to do and do them! This really is a life defining moment, where you will always remember how you took a really crappy event in your life and you made the best of it, and how thankful you are you did! You get to reinvent yourself and change the things you didnt like in your old life and make a better new life for yourself. Not many people get this chance, or use it wisely. So embrace it!

[ilmw]

Hi, crying canuck, dgiirl, gunny and tony....thx for the feed back.

 

Well I did not see your pots until now.

 

I probably sound bi-polar by now....but I'm not. Just minor slips of emotion...but getting stronger day by day.

 

Anyway....

 

When she came home I spoke with her about what I found on her account. I was very calm about it (which was amazing) I thought I was going to lose it. She never defended herself but she did raise her voice a little when she came out and asked me if I was accusing her of seeing someone else or having someone on the sidelines waiting.

 

I can honsetly say I believe her...she has never shown any of the typical signs of a cheating spouse. No unexplained phone calls,or time away from home etc...

 

I felt like a jerk after....that was not her doing she admitted she understood my reaction. She explianed that if I had a look a little deeper I would have found a comparison with her and my star sign as well...and that it was only astrology.

 

I think I may have jumped the gun on this one...but I guess I was looking for something to make sense of what is going on...and this was an easy way out...

 

I don't think she is seeing someone else....I did not want to see it...Her sister does all the time...meets someone..then cheats on them with someone else....My DW has said in the past how wrong she thinks this is...

 

We later sat down and talked for a long tome about things for the first time in along time...It was so natural tal. I spoke of what I have been going through...how I said to myself I did not like myself and that I wantd changes in myself...

 

I believe that I have made great strides in selfimprovement. My DW told me she has seen those changes. No angry outbursts, or moodiness. I have a positive outlook on almost everything. I have let go of so much crap that has been dragging me down for so long..and I mean (long time 15 years +). She sees it.

I have a lot of crap I have held onto to make me a very negative person....being cheated on in the past being stabbed in in the back many times...disappointments at work... death of family members...the list goes on like anyones. I lost my ability to cope..or purge my negativisim...it built up and built up. I then had no control and was almost depressed (clinical).

 

After some sessions of counselling I was told I was not depressed, but very sad. Unresolved grief etc.... I have over the past 2 months been working on myself to improve...and its working. That which once bothered me no longe does...I truly feel I have let go of so much. It is so true that events like this can change your life for the better

 

I have one more thing I must do..I think before I will feel more centred...I most vist the graves of my grandparents in England...its like a mission now.

 

My DW then explained her position. She can only concentrate on the boys and the sale of the house, before she concerns herself about herself, and anything else. She said maybe then... she can go to personal counselling or have a nervious break down. I, of course said I hoped she would seek counsellng before a breakdown.

 

She is a wonderful mother...and I believe her when she says this. She is so determined to do this on her own and trying to make this as easy on the boys as possible.

 

She is a very honest person, but she told me she has been keeping her feelings or lack of them inside her for a very long time. She said it was like a poision. It made her angry for a long time, but it is faiding. She also said she sid not want to give me any false hopes, but se did not know where we would be in 6 months from now or even a year. She said she did not want the relationship at this time. I understand why she feels this way.

 

During this conversation we had some interuptions from the kids or phone calls...but she always quickly dealt with them and came back to talk to me. This in itself was encouraging. (no expectations) She actually said she was enjoying the converstation. We laughed, some tears were shed...but at the end things felt a little better between us, at some small level...cleared the air so to speak.

 

I guess all I can do is do what I have been doing and see if her feelings change. There were some encouraging signs and we had a very meaningful conversation where we gave each other 100% attention, lots of eye contact. I also felt goodwill from her (no expectations) She is just a nice person.

 

She has seen my changes...and appears to believe they are real...not a plan to change her mind. I am glad of this because I know my changes are real.

 

Once again thx to all who have taken the time to give me there thoughts...

 

I believe things between my DW and I may one day change to something better...but I must be patient for her the boys and myself.

[Gunny376]

Tom, who was in his sixties. Tom had been through an amazing lot of crap during his life ~ The Great Depression, WWII, D-Day, Normandy Invasion, the lost of his wife from cancer.

 

Tom had an amazing way of saying, vocalizing, in-toning twelve words which brought instant calm, peace, etc.

 

"It will be alright. No matter what happens, it will be alright!"

I've been blessed in knowing Tom, in hearing him saying those words to me, the way he and only he could say them, with the expression of sincerity on his face. Tom's gone now ~ but forever more ~ when during times of trouble, striff, and worry, I can hear him say them in my mind. I can visualize him saying them, the way he said them, and the expression of sincerity that he said them with. I now pass them on to you, my friend. Just keep saying them over and over, becuase in the end, no matter what happens ~ "It will be alright!"

[Dehl]

Gunny, your words ring so true.

 

Yet, I am in the same situation as ilmw.

 

Knowing these things and doing these things, when the pain is so fresh, are two very different things.