Anymore nice girls?

[mike]

I would like to find a girl that hasn't let some other guy walk all over her. Is it just me or do most women seem to be attracted to guys that have serious flaws (cheaters, drug-users, unemployed, alcoholics and hard-cases). I am not like any of these guys and always seem to be the guy desired for a rebound. I am not interested after some girl caught her boyfriend cheating for the second or third time. Why don't women cut their men loose when they do something stupid like cheat, steal or beat their women? I don't know if I will get any good answers but I would love to know if there are still secure, confident women in the world that can drop a loser without hoping someday he'll change.

[Cynthia]

Ok - is it just me, or did that sound incredibly insensitive? The things that you are complaining about are common problems for everyone. Who hasn't had a bad realtionship? Who hasn't made mistakes in their romatinc history? You enter into the adult dating world as a young person not knowing anything. You live and you learn, growing and changing through experiences and finding out what you do and don't want from your partner.

 

I didn't mean to come off as bitchy...it's jsut that I'm so tired of hearing people say whay can't so and so dump her man, he treats her bad, blah blah blah. I've been in a few bad relationships and I can safely say that the motives of women who are in bad relationships are so complex I can't even begin to sctratch the surface here.

 

Maybe you should consider that perhaps the attitidue with which you approach dating situations affects the outcomes/results. Why are you not interested in women who have been in bad relationships? Why do you perceive them as weak? If you aren't interested in them, don't date them.

 

My present relationship is wonderful, and I got out of an abusive, manipulative relationship in May. The thing is, I never bring my past into the present interaction. There's no use in it, it doesn't do any good. He knows I've had extremely bad experiences and we just don't bring it up.

 

I just don't understand why you have to judge all women kind on the basis of your dating history, which is a statistically insignificant sample size considering the real size of the American female population ages 20-45.

I would like to find a girl that hasn't let some other guy walk all over her. Is it just me or do most women seem to be attracted to guys that have serious flaws (cheaters, drug-users, unemployed, alcoholics and hard-cases). I am not like any of these guys and always seem to be the guy desired for a rebound. I am not interested after some girl caught her boyfriend cheating for the second or third time. Why don't women cut their men loose when they do something stupid like cheat, steal or beat their women? I don't know if I will get any good answers but I would love to know if there are still secure, confident women in the world that can drop a loser without hoping someday he'll change.

[Lacey]

yes there are still secure women out there. I know that sometimes it seems as though women have regressed since there fight for women's lib. but that is not true for the most part. I once fell into the category that you talk about but after relieving myself of that situation I came to realize that I am a great wonderful person who has a lot to offer in all aspects of life and if the person that I am with can't realize that then he isn't worth my time and effort. Call me a hopeless romantic but I will wait till my knight in shining armor comes to sweep me away and love me for who I am and not try to change anything about me. It takes time to find that right person and when you find her she will have been right under your nose the whole time and you will have never noticed until the right moment

[odyne]

Wow, the contrasting energy in this whole thing is astounding. Okay, enough newage-speak. I myself have wondered these things many times, the endless questions-

 

Why do all nice girls go for bad guys?

 

Why do all nice guys like bad girls?

 

Why do they choose wild and unpredictable instead of safe and comfortable?

 

Well my darlings, the answers may not exist. We, as humans are quirky. A lot of people want different things, it's just the rare combination that makes that sweet something we call love. Okay, so I sound a little loca, but think about it...everyone desires certain qualities in a boyfriend/girlfriend (lover, wife, husband, *friend*, etc etc). Some people have various qualities in large amounts. It's all about finding someone that you make a balance with. The place were I disagree with Mike is when he made assumptions about girls that have been walked over by guys. A lot of us *do* learn from those experiences and go on to pick the nice guys. Sometimes we pick the nice guys and they turn out to be the worst ones. It's confusing. It's life. Keep the faith. Hopefully we'll all find someone to love. Okay, enough babble for tonight. Take care of each other (and yourselves).

 

-Odyne

 

(one more thing, I feel like a talk show host right now)

 

[ah yes, and the average woman is 5'4 and weighs 140]

[Mike]

I have never been in a bad relationship and I hold the women I date to the same standard. Is that wrong? My relationships have been successful but ended when a situation(s) presented themselves that we could not agree on (long-distance, religion, etc.)

 

The first time I would be cheated on, hit or taken advantage of; would be the last. I don't percieve women that stay in a bad relationship as weak. I see them as foolish. Most seem convinced that he will change "because he loves me". Men don't change because their girlfriend wants them to... They change because they don't want this one to get away. I think most of the time this change occurs on a first date or meeting, before things get physical.

 

I am trying not to judge all women. I also am not basing my opinion on my dating history; but I am basing it on the women that I could be dating if I wasn't turned off when I hear about (or see) women letting men use them.I am trying to figure out what it takes to meet a girl with confidence, self-respect and control of her life.

 

My point is I am not attracted to women that allow a man to take advantage, use or abuse her; and I haven't met a woman in a while that doesn't fall into that category.

 

Thank you for your response

Ok - is it just me, or did that sound incredibly insensitive? The things that you are complaining about are common problems for everyone. Who hasn't had a bad realtionship? Who hasn't made mistakes in their romatinc history? You enter into the adult dating world as a young person not knowing anything. You live and you learn, growing and changing through experiences and finding out what you do and don't want from your partner. I didn't mean to come off as bitchy...it's jsut that I'm so tired of hearing people say whay can't so and so dump her man, he treats her bad, blah blah blah. I've been in a few bad relationships and I can safely say that the motives of women who are in bad relationships are so complex I can't even begin to sctratch the surface here.

 

Maybe you should consider that perhaps the attitidue with which you approach dating situations affects the outcomes/results. Why are you not interested in women who have been in bad relationships? Why do you perceive them as weak? If you aren't interested in them, don't date them. My present relationship is wonderful, and I got out of an abusive, manipulative relationship in May. The thing is, I never bring my past into the present interaction. There's no use in it, it doesn't do any good. He knows I've had extremely bad experiences and we just don't bring it up.

 

I just don't understand why you have to judge all women kind on the basis of your dating history, which is a statistically insignificant sample size considering the real size of the American female population ages 20-45.

[Mike]

I sure hope you're right!!!

yes there are still secure women out there. I know that sometimes it seems as though women have regressed since there fight for women's lib. but that is not true for the most part. I once fell into the category that you talk about but after relieving myself of that situation I came to realize that I am a great wonderful person who has a lot to offer in all aspects of life and if the person that I am with can't realize that then he isn't worth my time and effort. Call me a hopeless romantic but I will wait till my knight in shining armor comes to sweep me away and love me for who I am and not try to change anything about me. It takes time to find that right person and when you find her she will have been right under your nose the whole time and you will have never noticed until the right moment

[Mike]

Learning in your early 20's is acceptable, but I see women that are going on 30 and still haven't learned. So maybe I have too high of aspirations but if you haven't learned by this age you are "damaged goods" by my standard.

 

Nice guys can't be the worst ones. Using, lying, beating and cheating on a woman automatically disqualifies from being a nice guy.

Wow, the contrasting energy in this whole thing is astounding. Okay, enough newage-speak. I myself have wondered these things many times, the endless questions- Why do all nice girls go for bad guys? Why do all nice guys like bad girls? Why do they choose wild and unpredictable instead of safe and comfortable? Well my darlings, the answers may not exist. We, as humans are quirky. A lot of people want different things, it's just the rare combination that makes that sweet something we call love. Okay, so I sound a little loca, but think about it...everyone desires certain qualities in a boyfriend/girlfriend (lover, wife, husband, *friend*, etc etc). Some people have various qualities in large amounts. It's all about finding someone that you make a balance with. The place were I disagree with Mike is when he made assumptions about girls that have been walked over by guys. A lot of us *do* learn from those experiences and go on to pick the nice guys. Sometimes we pick the nice guys and they turn out to be the worst ones. It's confusing. It's life. Keep the faith. Hopefully we'll all find someone to love. Okay, enough babble for tonight. Take care of each other (and yourselves).

 

-Odyne (one more thing, I feel like a talk show host right now) [ah yes, and the average woman is 5'4 and weighs 140]

[odyne]

People change. Nice guys can turn into bad ones. Rarely, bad ones can redeem themselves. Some people are deceiving, and others far too naive.

[Cynthia]

I have never been in a bad relationship and I hold the women I date to the same standard. Is that wrong?

Yes. Who are you to judge any one? I mean, come on, is everyone else you? Has everyone else had the same experiences? If the answers to these questions are no, than how can you judge any one? How can you expect that everyone has had good relationships when there are so many people out there with questionable morals?

The first time I would be cheated on, hit or taken advantage of; would be the last. I don't percieve women that stay in a bad relationship as weak. I see them as foolish

Why are they foolish? Because they don't feel good enough about themselves. They think that they don't deserve to be with someone who treats them right.

Most seem convinced that he will change "because he loves me".

No, as I said before, they don't feel they're worthy of real love. In conversation the whole "he'll change" thing is brought up as a socially acceptble psychological justification for being an abusee. And as everyone with a basic understanding of psychology (textbook alert!) knows, psychological justifications are the barriers we erect for ourselves in order to mainstain sanity.

I am trying not to judge all women. I also am not basing my opinion on my dating history;

Yes you are!! Look above: "I have never been in a bad relationship and I hold women I date to the same standards." What is that exactly? Is that not basing your opinions or your dating history? And the subject at hand..."Anymore nice girl?"...aren't you trying to see if we can change your opinion of weak, fool, women who are in bad relationships because of their own stupidity?

 

I'm sorry if this letter sounded confrontational, but the reality of the matter, psychobabble and newspeak aside, is that you seem to not not be the type of person willing to give of yourself and love someone enough to overlook their faults and try to help them help themselves. If it had not been for my present boyfriend staying with me when my ex tried to blackmail me, when he was stalking me, etc....if he had said, "It's s***ty you were in a bad relationship but I find that unattractive...bye." then I would probably not have made it through that bad time in my life. But I see that had it been you with me, you would have done exactly what I just described.

 

Is it so difficult for you to sympathize with someone? Is it so difficult for you to try and place yourself in the shoes of someone who's been probably beaten down since they were too young to stand up to anyone? If you're conditioned to respond a certain way from, say, age 5, how are you supposed to suddenly become a confident, strong person?

[odyne]

Well said. I agree with you Cynthia.

Yes. Who are you to judge any one? I mean, come on, is everyone else you? Has everyone else had the same experiences? If the answers to these questions are no, than how can you judge any one? How can you expect that everyone has had good relationships when there are so many people out there with questionable morals? Why are they foolish? Because they don't feel good enough about themselves. They think that they don't deserve to be with someone who treats them right. No, as I said before, they don't feel they're worthy of real love. In conversation the whole "he'll change" thing is brought up as a socially acceptble psychological justification for being an abusee. And as everyone with a basic understanding of psychology (textbook alert!) knows, psychological justifications are the barriers we erect for ourselves in order to mainstain sanity.

 

Yes you are!! Look above: "I have never been in a bad relationship and I hold women I date to the same standards." What is that exactly? Is that not basing your opinions or your dating history? And the subject at hand..."Anymore nice girl?"...aren't you trying to see if we can change your opinion of weak, fool, women who are in bad relationships because of their own stupidity? I'm sorry if this letter sounded confrontational, but the reality of the matter, psychobabble and newspeak aside, is that you seem to not not be the type of person willing to give of yourself and love someone enough to overlook their faults and try to help them help themselves. If it had not been for my present boyfriend staying with me when my ex tried to blackmail me, when he was stalking me, etc....if he had said, "It's s***ty you were in a bad relationship but I find that unattractive...bye." then I would probably not have made it through that bad time in my life. But I see that had it been you with me, you would have done exactly what I just described. Is it so difficult for you to sympathize with someone? Is it so difficult for you to try and place yourself in the shoes of someone who's been probably beaten down since they were too young to stand up to anyone? If you're conditioned to respond a certain way from, say, age 5, how are you supposed to suddenly become a confident, strong person?

[Mike]

Don't take this so personally. I have avoided the pitfalls of bad judgement and that is what I am looking for. It is my place to judge the person I want to date, we all do it. I find it unattractive (you may as well have a hairy wart on your nose) for women to accept men that treat them less than gold.

 

I don't expect everyone to have perfect relationships, but cut your losses early. I don't feel sorry for people who play on train tracks, and I don't feel sorry for women that lack enough confidence to go it alone. Having nobody is better than having the wrong person.

 

As far as comparing women with my dating history, you took it out of context. I haven't found anyone that meets my standard, so I am not even asking anyone out. Which goes back to my original posting and I guess you have answered it. There aren't any women that meet my criteria for dating. I don't want you to change my opinion I was hoping for confimation that there are women that are strong, intelligent and confident.

 

I don't want or expect a woman that is trying to get her confidence back. I want her to already have it when I meet her.

 

You are right, I won't overlook these faults.

 

What do you mean "you probably wouldn't have made it through that bad time" without your boyfriend. It is great you had someone to help you, but if you mean without him you may have gone back to your abusive boyfriend then I would have kicked you to the curb with combat boots. I am not looking to fix something I didn't break.

 

And I would sympathize with someone who has been victimized since childhood. Though I would not pursue a relationship with them. I find it hard to believe that every woman I have met lately is a victim of child abuse. My personal opinion is most of these women tolerate men that take advantage of, use, and victimize them because these guys have superficial qualities (money, muscles, etc.)

 

Just so you know, I am somewhat good looking, I hold 2 degrees, own my own house, and I am probably one of the most fun and interesting people you could ever hope to meet. And believe it or not; I have been told (too often) I am too nice to women.

[carol]

Are there any guys out there (besides perfect you, of course) that wouldn't take advantage of a woman if given the chance? I am only 25 but I havn't met any yet.

I would like to find a girl that hasn't let some other guy walk all over her. Is it just me or do most women seem to be attracted to guys that have serious flaws (cheaters, drug-users, unemployed, alcoholics and hard-cases). I am not like any of these guys and always seem to be the guy desired for a rebound. I am not interested after some girl caught her boyfriend cheating for the second or third time. Why don't women cut their men loose when they do something stupid like cheat, steal or beat their women? I don't know if I will get any good answers but I would love to know if there are still secure, confident women in the world that can drop a loser without hoping someday he'll change.

[Mike]

Well I didn't say I was perfect (just close). And I don't know of too many guys that wouldn't take advantage of a woman if given a chance, however I don't think guys should be given a chance. My complaint is me and my buddies hang out at the same bars most weekends. The girls in our area all flirt with and hit on the same guys. They compete to see

 

which girl will get to go home with the pretty boy. Since some of these guys are my buddies I see the whole thing. One girl walks away and the next one walks up. They make offers to my buddies like you wouldn't believe (maybe you would believe) and at last call the guys round up the one they want, and tell me they will take the other girl home next weekend.

 

What would you think of a girl that tells a guy "If my sister wasn't hoping to go home with you, I'd be all over you... So maybe next week you can hook up with me."

 

Now I am not going to say I am a Saint. I would take advantage of a situation where I got propositioned like this, but I would really like to date someone on a regular basis and form a long term committed relationship. I would not expect (or even want) a commitment from a girl that I had sex with in the parking lot of a bar the first night I met her. Around here it happens all the time.

 

The worst part is these girls fall in love with guys like this. There are way too many single moms and dead beat dads around here. The women have no money or self-esteem; and look to a guy like me to help out. Several women I watched go thru this cycle are trying to get me to ask them out now. Is it wrong of me to blow them off? I know hindsite is 20/20 but these girls had me (and others)tell them they were being used and they told us we "didn't know the whole story." Guess what we did know the whole story.

 

I actually have a friend that said "She could not believe she wasted all those years on that jerk when she could have had me." She is now $30,000 in debt over this guy, she looks like hell, and she is always drunk.

 

I hope you use better judgement than the girls I know. Who knows we may cross paths. You will find a decent guy and I'll find a nice girl.

Are there any guys out there (besides perfect you, of course) that wouldn't take advantage of a woman if given the chance? I am only 25 but I havn't met any yet.

[On Mike's Side]

I would like to find a girl that hasn't let

some other guy walk all over her. Is it just me or do most women seem to be attracted to guys that have serious flaws (cheaters, drug-users, unemployed, alcoholics and hard-cases). I am not like any of these guys and always seem to be the guy desired for a rebound. I am not interested after some girl caught her boyfriend cheating for the second or third time. Why don't women cut their men loose when they do something stupid like cheat, steal or beat their women? I don't know if I will get any good answers but I would love to know if there are still secure, confident women in the world that can drop a loser without hoping someday he'll change.

I'm afraid I'm gonna have to agree with Mike on all counts here. I have a habit of being blunt but if any of you women out there can avoid getting defensive about this I'd love to hear some honest answers. I agree with Mike because I have also been called a 'nice guy' since high school. And seeing as how personality is supposed to be the big factor it would seem to make sense that I would have had some good relationships. But actually I had none until I was 25. So I had a lot of time to watch and see how the whole thing works and I don't understand it one bit. Here's what I see about 90% of the time. The slick-talking smooth-looking fun guy who also is a complete @ss and every guy there knows it, gets all the girls. What's worse is these guys don't even have to try...the girls come to them. Guys can tell what other guys are the type to use women but it does us little good because I don't know any women who will avoid these men based on another man's advice. Call this an unfair generalization but what I see today are women going to college parties and bars, getting drunk, finding a drunk man who is their style, going home with him and then wondering why they can't find any nice men. Get your s*** together people. It really bothers me to hear this type of thing all the time (as a nice guy I wind up with a lot of 'friends' and get to hear these complaints often). A previous post had addressed the issue of women's rights and how things have changed afterwards. I think they have to be honest. Women don't want to be serious or logical at all about making choices here. Passion and heat of the moment and all that is great but if you aren't smart about it then you will lose every time. Learn about guys, listen to what people say about guys. And talk to guys. And I'm not speaking of listening to their witty stories and B.S. compliments and so on. I've never been a flirt but it amazes me that women can't see through the simple garbage bad guys throw at them. Most the women I know want to like everyone by default and automatically assume someone is nice. Make a guy earn your respect first, don't give it away. And get with the program..be smart. Most of the time guys can tell if a girl is a "player" just by looking and listening to how and what she says in an evening. Why girls can get men figured out baffles me. I don't think they try but instead wait to bump into the perfect guy through trial and error. Meanwhile all the nice guys I know are alone, frustrated, and have lots of girls who are 'just friends'. By the way before you finish judging me I did finally find the person I was looking for and she is great. Every one of her friends is going through the above mentioned situation over and over though. And to all of you who will be close minded and get down on me for writing this it's common sense, everyone knows it, there are even songs about it (nice guys finish last..), so do something about it or just keep ignoring it and wondering why you don't wind up with nice guys. But stop complaining to the nice guys about it because all it does is make them feel more confused and lonely because they know exactly what's going on but no girl's going to listen to them so what's the point? I see it over, and over, and over again so feel free to give me a reason not to believe it's not true.

[Mike]

Thank you. I didn't think I was crazy. I'll tell you the truth I have decided to cut ties with most of my female friends that have gone through the jerks. It is fun, because a couple of them have interest in me now. They may be hoping for a "just friends" relationship, but I think they want more. I am not even trying to find out which it is. I have even gotten chewed out for not calling or coming by to talk. I really don't care. It is time to find new women with histories I don't know about. Their loss.