whir Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 yah,,woman also study and do a research..i have an ex gf who is so fond of cosmopolitan magazine... cosmopolitan magazine train girls to be a player... Link to post Share on other sites
Fun2BMe Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 yah,,woman also study and do a research..i have an ex gf who is so fond of cosmopolitan magazine... cosmopolitan magazine train girls to be a player... I have to disagree. If anything, it trains girls to be slave to fashion and sex. Almost every issue will include a list like "100,000 Ways To Please Him." Link to post Share on other sites
whir Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 I have to disagree. If anything, it trains girls to be slave to fashion and sex. Almost every issue will include a list like "100,000 Ways To Please Him."lolz ..dont worry...i agree with that too.. Link to post Share on other sites
batesal Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 Unless the guy is a rebound relationship, extremely unattractive, or is a 100% complete jerk, this usually happens: Girl dates guy A (niceguy)...good relationship, she gets bored and gets with guy B Girl dates guy B ...good/decent relationship, girl thinks about guy A. Girl obsesses over guy A and breaks up with guy B. Guy A has already moved on. Girl dates guy C(player) ...but remembers how good it was with Guy B. Guy C recognizes this...breaks up with her and moves on. Girl is upset and wants to prove she can get guy C, but in the mean time... Girl dates guy D ...but is still in love with C... girl breaks up with guy D and wins guy C back. Girl gets bored of C and is interested in guy E, F, and G because they give her attention. Girl gets with guy F, but has feelings for guy E and G. Girl is still in love with A, B, C, and D. Well put. Sometimes when you think life is better than you already have it, it's not. I believe this is my ex. It's why it is hard for her to talk to me, cause she is embrassed and scared. (But I honsetly don't know) Link to post Share on other sites
waitingforlove Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 Hi, Just wanted to give some opinions from a girl's perspectives. I broke up with a guy once because of the differences in our values. He was good at stopping contact altogether soon and looked completely okay. But because I REALLY didn't want to stay together with him, I actually felt relieved that he didn't call anymore. I never missed him a bit. On the other hand, if I break up with my boyfriend because I feel unloved (due to misunderstandings, his lack of sensitivity, and so on), then by him doing NC or pretending that he didn't care about me would only REASSURE me that I was right in breaking up with him. One time I broke up with my boyfriend because he did something that hurt me very much and then he refused to apologize even after I repeatedly explained to him why it hurt me. He denied his mistakes. Four days later, I decided that I didn't want someone who would not even admit his own mistakes, because in the long term, it would hurt a lot to be with someone who wanted to be "right" at all cost -- even when it meant that he would be hurting somebody close to him. So I decided to break up with him even though it hurt so much. For a day he pretended not to care; he agreed to the break up, etc. I was heartbroken but still thought I did the right thing. He was smart in that one day later, he sent me an ecard, finally apologizing! I took him back because his apology made me think that maybe he was not so uncaring after all; that maybe he did care about other people's feelings. I wouldn't have taken him back had he continued to "play games" by ignoring me. So basically, what I want to say is that sometimes, or for some girls, it's more important to show her that you CARE, than to pretend NOT TO CARE in order to get her attention. I consider myself serious in relationships and I don't fool around, so I want somebody who truly cares about me. If I'm sure there's no chance for the guy, then his not paying attention to me won't produce any influence on me. And if I still love the guy when I break up with him, and I break up only because of things that irritate me or upset me, then by him not paying attention to me would also just prove to me that this guy was not worth it. In other words, I believe that in true love, games do more harm than good. Why are there so many divorces these days? Because even husbands and wives "play games" and are never sincere with one another. In my experience, good girls value sincerity, so unless you want a relationship with some immature girls, games won't help! Show her your sincerity if you really want to works things out! Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 Hi, Just wanted to give some opinions from a girl's perspectives. I broke up with a guy once because of the differences in our values. He was good at stopping contact altogether soon and looked completely okay. But because I REALLY didn't want to stay together with him, I actually felt relieved that he didn't call anymore. I never missed him a bit. On the other hand, if I break up with my boyfriend because I feel unloved (due to misunderstandings, his lack of sensitivity, and so on), then by him doing NC or pretending that he didn't care about me would only REASSURE me that I was right in breaking up with him. One time I broke up with my boyfriend because he did something that hurt me very much and then he refused to apologize even after I repeatedly explained to him why it hurt me. He denied his mistakes. Four days later, I decided that I didn't want someone who would not even admit his own mistakes, because in the long term, it would hurt a lot to be with someone who wanted to be "right" at all cost -- even when it meant that he would be hurting somebody close to him. So I decided to break up with him even though it hurt so much. For a day he pretended not to care; he agreed to the break up, etc. I was heartbroken but still thought I did the right thing. He was smart in that one day later, he sent me an ecard, finally apologizing! I took him back because his apology made me think that maybe he was not so uncaring after all; that maybe he did care about other people's feelings. I wouldn't have taken him back had he continued to "play games" by ignoring me. So basically, what I want to say is that sometimes, or for some girls, it's more important to show her that you CARE, than to pretend NOT TO CARE in order to get her attention. I consider myself serious in relationships and I don't fool around, so I want somebody who truly cares about me. If I'm sure there's no chance for the guy, then his not paying attention to me won't produce any influence on me. And if I still love the guy when I break up with him, and I break up only because of things that irritate me or upset me, then by him not paying attention to me would also just prove to me that this guy was not worth it. In other words, I believe that in true love, games do more harm than good. Why are there so many divorces these days? Because even husbands and wives "play games" and are never sincere with one another. In my experience, good girls value sincerity, so unless you want a relationship with some immature girls, games won't help! Show her your sincerity if you really want to works things out! What if you already tried that? Said you were sorry and meant it but she still said "I do not care to communicate any further?" Since that happened, I respected her decision and have not communicated with her. Hearing you say that only confuses me. This woman had said earlier in our relationship that she had abandonment issues. Right now, with it being a month and 7 days of NC, I wish I could write to her one more time and let her know that I DO CARE and that I'm not angry at her. What would you do? Respect her wishes and leave it at NC? (it was a very bad breakup) Or think that maybe even though she said that she no longer wanted to communicate, that it was only something she said that she didn't really mean because she wants a guy to prove to her that he won't abandon her? Now I'm confused. Link to post Share on other sites
fireflywy Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 Hi, Just wanted to give some opinions from a girl's perspectives. I broke up with a guy once because of the differences in our values. He was good at stopping contact altogether soon and looked completely okay. But because I REALLY didn't want to stay together with him, I actually felt relieved that he didn't call anymore. I never missed him a bit. On the other hand, if I break up with my boyfriend because I feel unloved (due to misunderstandings, his lack of sensitivity, and so on), then by him doing NC or pretending that he didn't care about me would only REASSURE me that I was right in breaking up with him. One time I broke up with my boyfriend because he did something that hurt me very much and then he refused to apologize even after I repeatedly explained to him why it hurt me. He denied his mistakes. Four days later, I decided that I didn't want someone who would not even admit his own mistakes, because in the long term, it would hurt a lot to be with someone who wanted to be "right" at all cost -- even when it meant that he would be hurting somebody close to him. So I decided to break up with him even though it hurt so much. For a day he pretended not to care; he agreed to the break up, etc. I was heartbroken but still thought I did the right thing. He was smart in that one day later, he sent me an ecard, finally apologizing! I took him back because his apology made me think that maybe he was not so uncaring after all; that maybe he did care about other people's feelings. I wouldn't have taken him back had he continued to "play games" by ignoring me. So basically, what I want to say is that sometimes, or for some girls, it's more important to show her that you CARE, than to pretend NOT TO CARE in order to get her attention. I consider myself serious in relationships and I don't fool around, so I want somebody who truly cares about me. If I'm sure there's no chance for the guy, then his not paying attention to me won't produce any influence on me. And if I still love the guy when I break up with him, and I break up only because of things that irritate me or upset me, then by him not paying attention to me would also just prove to me that this guy was not worth it. In other words, I believe that in true love, games do more harm than good. Why are there so many divorces these days? Because even husbands and wives "play games" and are never sincere with one another. In my experience, good girls value sincerity, so unless you want a relationship with some immature girls, games won't help! Show her your sincerity if you really want to works things out! What if you already tried that? Said you were sorry and meant it but she still said "I do not care to communicate any further?" Since that happened, I respected her decision and have not communicated with her. Hearing you say that only confuses me. This woman had said earlier in our relationship that she had abandonment issues. Right now, with it being a month and 7 days of NC, I wish I could write to her one more time and let her know that I DO CARE and that I'm not angry at her. What would you do? Respect her wishes and leave it at NC? (it was a very bad breakup) Or think that maybe even though she said that she no longer wanted to communicate, that it was only something she said that she didn't really mean because she wants a guy to prove to her that he won't abandon her? I already tried and told her how I felt several times. (not in the last 37 days since absolute NC was begun though and I was the one dumped). Now I'm confused. Link to post Share on other sites
waitingforlove Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 Fireflywy, you sound like a sincere person who truly cares about your ex. You don't sound like you're "playing games" in order to manipulate your ex into missing you. That's good. I want to try giving you my opinions. First of all, what exactly did she mean by she had "abandonment issues"? Assuming that she meant that she feared abandonment, then my question is: Was it because she felt like you didn't care enough about her, or you abandoned her from time to time, that she decided to break up with you? If that's the case, I do think that you need to let her know you still care instead of just walking away. Not every woman is the same, of course, and love is never about any form of "equations" or "definite rules." So I understand that you are confused and I empathize. You know, if she has felt abandoned by you for a while, she's going to be scared of trusting you easily again. She's going to need some time -- that doesn't mean "time without you," but "time to see that you do care about her." She needs to see that even when she runs away from you, you will not leave her. By you just disappearing isn't going to make her feel any better or any easier to trust you again. You also need to know that one difference between men and women is that men take words LITERALLY, while women don't. When she said "I do not care to communicate any further," it doesn't surprise me that you take it literally and believe that she really means she doesn't care to communicate. I'm not saying that she intentionally said what she didn't mean, but from a girl's perspective, I hear that statement differently. I hear her emotions more than the words; it sounds to me that she's saying, "I am so disappointed with our past communications. I have tried hard to communicate with you and to let you know what I wanted, but you didn't understand me/didn't care enough to try to understand better. I don't know how to talk with you further anymore. There seems to be no point, and I'm afraid of getting hurt and misunderstood again." In other words, I feel like she's probably hurting a lot herself. Not that she really doesn't want you AT ALL, but she's too afraid of trusting you again. You need to be patient and persistent in showing her that you care, without appearing too desperate. I do agree that the dumpee, whether it's a guy or girl, needs to maintain personal dignity and not appear needy. You need to show that you are a mature person and you are sufficient enough in yourself that you don't "need" her to prove your "personal value." On the other hand, pretending that you don't care for the sake of pretending and trying to get the other person to miss you that way is not going to do the relationship any long-term good. If you really love her, you need to ask yourself, is caring for her more important or protecting your own ego more important? Can you let go of your ego in order to care for her? I know, it hurts for you to stand by her, waiting for another chance while that hasn't been promised/guaranteed to you. But love is sometimes about taking risks. If you think she's worth it, you might need to get out of your own way to show her that you care -- even if it means that you risk getting hurt. However, don't be pushy. Don't call too often, but do drop her a line in a friendly and warm voice every now and then (I would say, once every ten days or so). Don't tell her that you "want her back." She doesn't want to see that you only care about what YOU WANT! She wants to see that you care about what is GOOD FOR HER. Ask her questions about her recent life; don't talk too much about yourself until she asks. Girls don't like guys who're too self-centered, especially with girls who are fearful of abandonment, they need to see that their guys can get out of their own ways to protect them and will not hurt them. Given time, hopefully she'll see that you really do care about her, and she might come around. Good luck! Link to post Share on other sites
mishy Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 yeah we are all guilty of game playing at some point Link to post Share on other sites
thekhris Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 feelings is based on what you think...all your pain your sadness and anything you feel is all in your state of mind... love is equal to value..... you have no value there is no love... the things that you think is caused by other peoples actions... Is it a game? ill ask you... If I could do somthing to make myself valueble to som1... is it a game?... how i influence her desicions is based on my actions and my behaviour...is it a game? i dont knw if you call this a manipulation... but if som1 do somthing to make him self valuble he is doing the right thing ...playing games is doing the right thing..playing games is an action based on following your brain instead following your mindless heart... if you will notice therse are thousands of males who followed their feelings and insticts..they beg..they get angry..they cry in front of a girl... and they all fail.. while on the other hand...guys who play it smart and not let themselves be dictated by their feelings..win their ex back... love is not magic...love is science... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
thekhris Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 The whole deal with women and their games can be a complicated affair. Women have rules and games they play with guys, most of which they learn at a young age. They learn how to manipulate their fathers with cuteness, tantrums and compliments, and soon realise that this same stuff works on most guys. This is further taught and encouraged in their teen magazines and from various media sources of feminist propaganda (Sex and the City springs to mind) aimed at giving power to women. The best way to counteract this is to learn their games and their rules. In doing this, we can prepare, learn how to turn them to our favour, and not least, we can get some insight into their thinking. Link to post Share on other sites
Pink Amulet Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 and take "the power" back I suppose? Link to post Share on other sites
thekhris Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 hmmm... for me atleast to be fair... by the way guys are natural born good leaders anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
rkman Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 feelings is based on what you think...all your pain your sadness and anything you feel is all in your state of mind... love is equal to value..... you have no value there is no love... the things that you think is caused by other peoples actions... Your state of mind is influenced by the actions of others to the degree which you will consciously allow that to happen. Your choices define your character. Your character aids in defining your cognitive processes. Animals rely on the intincts influenced by their environment. Humans are given choice on all matters, as we are for the large extent, aware. Obviously, we too are susseptable to manipulation of our environmnet, but we won't talk that path and assume that the world we see is the truth. Is it a game? ill ask you... If I could do somthing to make myself valueble to som1... is it a game?... how i influence her desicions is based on my actions and my behaviour...is it a game? i dont knw if you call this a manipulation... but if som1 do somthing to make him self valuble he is doing the right thing ...playing games is doing the right thing..playing games is an action based on following your brain instead following your mindless heart... if you will notice therse are thousands of males who followed their feelings and insticts..they beg..they get angry..they cry in front of a girl... and they all fail.. love is not magic...love is science... By definition, what you are doing is manipulation. Manipulation involves influencing a person to achieve a goal without the objects being manipulated being aware of your goal(s). If you were to state to the person your intentions, you would then be simnply influencing them. You would also be giving them choice in the process. Marketers influence people into buying things they don't really want. Lawyers influence people into believing things which they know aren't true. Playing games is dirtier than both of these professions, and we know how dirty they can become. Does a respectful person manipulate someone whom they supposedly love into loving them back the way that THEY want to be loved through negative actions? Your parents do this to help you to grow. I don't do this to grownups. If someone isn't grownup enough for me, it isn't my responsibility nor my right to induce such behaviour. In fact, inducing such behaviour is more destructive to that person's growing process, as it manipulates their priority levels from what they need it to be, to what I would want it to be. This is why psychological warfare is extremely abusive. while on the other hand...guys who play it smart and not let themselves be dictated by their feelings..win their ex back... This is the only thing I'll agree with. This is where your choice comes in though. Do the right thing for the both of you, or do the right thing for yourself. Playing games is plain and simply doing the right thing for your personal ideals. Not really healthy for either party. Link to post Share on other sites
rkman Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 The whole deal with women and their games can be a complicated affair. Women have rules and games they play with guys, most of which they learn at a young age. They learn how to manipulate their fathers with cuteness, tantrums and compliments, and soon realise that this same stuff works on most guys. This is further taught and encouraged in their teen magazines and from various media sources of feminist propaganda (Sex and the City springs to mind) aimed at giving power to women. The best way to counteract this is to learn their games and their rules. In doing this, we can prepare, learn how to turn them to our favour, and not least, we can get some insight into their thinking. Or to simply not play them at all. Yes women are extremely influenced by media, much more so than men on a personal level. Be the 'strong' man you believe you are, and don't fall down that path with them. Walk your own line, find a woman, not a girl, who is willing to do the same (ie think for herself) and you will find a strong partnership, assuming you are compatible. You can learn a lot about what they are thinking, by simply listening and commuunicating your needs back to them. They are always talking, we are seldom listening. Link to post Share on other sites
Author donpepot Posted July 4, 2006 Author Share Posted July 4, 2006 I think you watch too much titanic... when you give a girl a rose and say you love her..you already manupilating her to fall for you... when you say i love you and give her a romantic card and saying some romantic poetry..you already manupilating her to fall for you... when your behaving and acting somthing to get somthing in return your already manipulating some one to do what you want them to do to you... posthanks Link to post Share on other sites
rkman Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 I think you watch too much titanic... when you give a girl a rose and say you love her..you already manupilating her to fall for you... when you say i love you and give her a romantic card and saying some romantic poetry..you already manupilating her to fall for you... when your behaving and acting somthing to get somthing in return your already manipulating some one to do what you want them to do to you... posthanks There is a strong and distinct difference between positive and negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is generally a method to control through conditioning. Positive reinforcement promotes choice (i.e. Personailty...unless you'd prefer a robot). When you give a girl a rose, you are demonstrating your intentions through a generally accepted interpretation. Therefore, by defintiion you are making it clear that you wish to influence her into becoming your mate. From that point, it is up to her to decide. When you play dirty games, you are plain and simply; a coward, hiding behind a wall of selfish pride. If you were to tell the person that you wish to influence her/him into taking you back, they would be left in the open with their own choice of how to go about doing so, otherwise you are, by definition, manipulating them and in turn causing them psychological harm. You might as well chain them in your basement and beat them with a bat until they love you, the difference is only what your eyes see. If you were given the vision on the delicate mind you choose to manipulate, you may be inclined to demonstrate more compassion. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 Fireflywy, you sound like a sincere person who truly cares about your ex. You don't sound like you're "playing games" in order to manipulate your ex into missing you. That's good. I want to try giving you my opinions. First of all, what exactly did she mean by she had "abandonment issues"? Assuming that she meant that she feared abandonment, then my question is: Was it because she felt like you didn't care enough about her, or you abandoned her from time to time, that she decided to break up with you? If that's the case, I do think that you need to let her know you still care instead of just walking away. Not every woman is the same, of course, and love is never about any form of "equations" or "definite rules." So I understand that you are confused and I empathize. You know, if she has felt abandoned by you for a while, she's going to be scared of trusting you easily again. She's going to need some time -- that doesn't mean "time without you," but "time to see that you do care about her." She needs to see that even when she runs away from you, you will not leave her. By you just disappearing isn't going to make her feel any better or any easier to trust you again. You also need to know that one difference between men and women is that men take words LITERALLY, while women don't. When she said "I do not care to communicate any further," it doesn't surprise me that you take it literally and believe that she really means she doesn't care to communicate. I'm not saying that she intentionally said what she didn't mean, but from a girl's perspective, I hear that statement differently. I hear her emotions more than the words; it sounds to me that she's saying, "I am so disappointed with our past communications. I have tried hard to communicate with you and to let you know what I wanted, but you didn't understand me/didn't care enough to try to understand better. I don't know how to talk with you further anymore. There seems to be no point, and I'm afraid of getting hurt and misunderstood again." In other words, I feel like she's probably hurting a lot herself. Not that she really doesn't want you AT ALL, but she's too afraid of trusting you again. You need to be patient and persistent in showing her that you care, without appearing too desperate. I do agree that the dumpee, whether it's a guy or girl, needs to maintain personal dignity and not appear needy. You need to show that you are a mature person and you are sufficient enough in yourself that you don't "need" her to prove your "personal value." On the other hand, pretending that you don't care for the sake of pretending and trying to get the other person to miss you that way is not going to do the relationship any long-term good. If you really love her, you need to ask yourself, is caring for her more important or protecting your own ego more important? Can you let go of your ego in order to care for her? I know, it hurts for you to stand by her, waiting for another chance while that hasn't been promised/guaranteed to you. But love is sometimes about taking risks. If you think she's worth it, you might need to get out of your own way to show her that you care -- even if it means that you risk getting hurt. However, don't be pushy. Don't call too often, but do drop her a line in a friendly and warm voice every now and then (I would say, once every ten days or so). Don't tell her that you "want her back." She doesn't want to see that you only care about what YOU WANT! She wants to see that you care about what is GOOD FOR HER. Ask her questions about her recent life; don't talk too much about yourself until she asks. Girls don't like guys who're too self-centered, especially with girls who are fearful of abandonment, they need to see that their guys can get out of their own ways to protect them and will not hurt them. Given time, hopefully she'll see that you really do care about her, and she might come around. Good luck! Her abandonment issues were not from me. She's 37 and I'm 28, she also has a six year old daughter. We dated for 2 1/2 months (i know but it was very intense). She got out of a 1.5 year relationship about 5 months ago and is currently seeing a therapist. She told me about several serious issues about her past from ranging from an unwanted sexual experience when she was a youth to issues with her father. She has been married twice, once when she was younger (where her abandonment issue stemmed from) and the other was done when she found she was pregnant. Anyway, she gave me full disclosure about her past and during our short time together she told me that her therapist, before each session, always asked her if she would return to 1.5 year ex (closer in age to her and he has two teenage boys) if he came back to her. She always said that she told her therapist that no, she wouldn't. Remember that, because it is crucial to the rest of my story. So anyway, we originally met about 10 months ago at a local establishment. I had seen this woman around and I can honestly swear to god that she was the MOST ATTRACTIVE woman I have ever seen. (she’s very, very athletic, lifts weights-not a bodybuilder-, but is also very beautiful and as such is the most unique looking woman in my area.) Guys are always after her. To continue, we met at a bar and I talked to her for about 5 minutes and never forgot her name. About 7 months later I saw her again and finally decided to talk her. I had lost about 35 pounds since we had first met and I decided to throw caution to the wind. Well, she got my number and the very next week she called me. That weekend we went out to a late dinner and eventually to a local establishment where we were out talking until 5 am. (her ex husband was in town for the weekend watching their daughter and she told me that she had to get away.) The next night, on Saturday, we drove down to a neighboring town and had a great time. That very next week, she invited me over to her house and I met her, her little girl, and her friend/daughter’s babysitter. I brought each of them a carnation as she told me on the phone that her friend was a little down in the dumps. Her friend left shortly after and she and I talked that night. During our discussion, she opened up to me, cried a little bit, and talked about her past. I was there for her and tried to comfort her. At one point she told me how she was afraid of being vulnerable about being in a relationship. She also mentioned that she was a serial dater. That night I was there for her and when she started to get upset, she said that was embarrassed and that it was time that I go. I did but assured her that I was there for her. We talked a few times more that week and one night we finally kissed eachother. I was little shy at first but the kiss was wonderful and very romantic from my perspective. She said it made her feel wonderful. Problem 1. As that weekend rolled around, I sent her a few text messages about what was going on that Friday night. I figured I’d text her because I knew that she was taking her little girl down to the neighboring town so that her little girl could be watched by my ex’s sister who is a nurse at the hospital here. I sent her a text message that night around 7 PM and I gave her ring around 8:30 when I knew she was back in town. When I called her, she didn’t sound that great and she didn’t feel like she wanted to do anything that night. I said okay and let her go. After I hung up, I sent her a text message that said. “I’m here if you need to talk.” Figuring that she might have had a bad day. She sent me a message back that said. “Why do I need to talk to someone?” I called her back. We talked for a bit and she said she needed her space. She brought up the whole vulnerability issue and said she couldn’t afford to be where she was at in the relationship. I told her that I understood and that I would back off and she got angry and said., “Oh, is this where you graciously back out?” I told her no but that I understood that she needed her space. Her voice cracked and she said that she was embarrassed and that she had to go. Later on that weekend, I sent her a message that said I was still there if the she ever needed me. She responded with, I miss our conversations. I responded that I did too and she asked me via text “Do you really?” I said I do. ….We started talking again by that Sunday night (she called me) and it seemed like we were back on our way. During that week, she opened up to me again, with tears streaming down her face and told me that she had been married twice, not just once and that she was ashamed by it. Being a divorcee myself, it didn’t bother me at all. Once again I was supportive of her and tried to be there. Problem 2. Thursday night of that week rolls around and I called her to ask what she was doing for the weekend. Me being the idiot I am, I said “Hey, by the way, if you ever want to go out with your friends let me know. It’s cool.” (I used to be possessive in my past relationships and I had been working very hard on myself to give myself and the other person space and freedom. It was important for me to do so.) When I told her that she got angry!! She got pissed off on the phone and said. “Oh, now you’re going to dictate when we’ll see each other? I won’t let this relationship be controlled. I have a say in the course of this relationship too.” We talked about it and I tried to explain what I meant. It was almost like she didn’t even hear me or where I was coming from. She told me “I know I can go out anytime. In fact, I can go out alone and meet new people if I want.” During that conversation, the issue of intimate relations came up. During one point I was trying to show her some respect and I told her that I cared. I told her that because I cared that I didn’t want to move to fast and that when we had come close to going further earlier that week I wouldn’t have. She yelled at me, (not knowing what I meant) and said.. “Don’t flatter yourself! I can throw a rock out my front door and find a man to f**k me!” When that happened and she was ranging it started to hurt. I tried to calm her down and tell her how much she meant to me. I told her how I felt like a better man (which I did because I was more conscious/confident of myself and my world) when she was around. I told her about the night we kissed and how incredible it was. I said, “M (the ex) that night we kissed was incredible. I haven’t felt like that in seven years. You gave that to me.” (Seven years ago I had a very good relationship. I haven’t had that since, not even my short lived marriage was like that nor anyone else, except my EX, since I was 21 years old.) Well.. that made it worse. She yelled at me again and said “What do you mean you haven’t felt like that in 7 years?!!! Who are you comparing me to? I don’t want to be compared to someone in your past!!” I told her that in all of my experiences, all of my travels, all of ups and downs, even my marriage, that I had only felt like that ONCE before. Not before, and not since. Not until her. We talked a little longer, she hung up and we calmed down. Problem 3 (Big problem!) During our time together, she was having her 37th birthday. She had expressed to me how much she didn’t look forward to having her birthday. He friend/daughter babysitter, were over at her house the night before and when my ex had to answer the doorbell, her friend and I outlined a plan for her birthday. The night before her birthday, she told me how her mother was going to visit for mother’s day and how she wanted to have her ex’s two teenage boys over for dinner. I told her I had no problem with it at all. Now.. my ex’s 1.5 year ex, will NOT even talk to or acknowledge her 6 years old daughter. Since their break he has not come over, not called, not checked up on my exes little girl whatsoever. My ex has a picture of her exbf and his two kids sitting in her little girl’s room. (remember she told me that her therapist always asked her if she would go back to him). My exgf feels that she has to continue to be a part of these two boys lives. The boys are thirteen and fifteen. They have mother already and a father. (just to let you know) Anyway, the next day, I bought her three gifts. They were small but the certainly showed how much I listened to her) and I brought flowers to her work. When I brought the flowers to her station, she walked me outside and I told her that I loved her. She responded with (I love you too you rascal.) The first time she had ever uttered those words. That night her friend had decorated the house, we played pin the tail on the donkey and I took everyone out to dinner. I think that overall I probably put out about $200 dollars for the flowers, the dinner for everyone, and the three gifts I bought her. On our way out of the house, her little six year was a little irritable and at one point, we even turned around and headed back to my exes house. My ex was annoyed, but calm and said “Now, you know this is mommies day. Do you understand? Please don’t ruin it for mommy.” Problem solved. We went to dinner and later on that night when her child was in bed, her friend had left, we were talking. Somehow, she started talking about her ex boyfriend again and his two boys. She had always complained about he had kept things inside and would let it all out. I didn’t want to be that way and I thought I would be honest. When she brought up her ex and his boys again, I quietly and softly asked her..”I have a serious question to ask. I’m just being honest with you when I ask this but… are you sure that you’re completely over your ex boyfriend?” (we had only been dating a month at that point!! I was being honest. I thought that maybe I could get a tad bit of reassurance. A “Yes Firefly, I’m over him. I care about you.”) SHE RAGED AT ME!! “How could you ask me that!! You ask me that on my birthday!!? You a%%hole!! You ruined my birthday!! I can’t believe you had the audacity to ask me that on MY day!!” Her little girl was asleep upstairs and she was RAGING at me! At one point when I told her that I didn’t want to wake her little girl up her voice got raspy at me and she said.. “I know what I’m doing with my daughter!!!” ( I had once told her, that if we were to ever get into a fight, that I didn’t want to do it in front of her little girl and let her little girl see her mother angry or in pain. I wouldn’t want a child to see or hear that) I was there until 3 AM in the morning. She made me feel like I was this horrible person. I sat there with tears in my eyes, apologies flowing, and I took it while she yelled at me for two hours. I have never felt worse in my life. The next day, she called me at work and she was very upset. I hadn’t been able to work all day and keep focus. She gave me a ring at lunch and I told her that I was hurting (hurting because I felt horrible about hurting her) and before I could say that she got mad at me again. She said “Oh.. you’re hurting huh? This isn’t about you!! This about me and MY feelings!! You ruined my birthday and YOU’RE the one hurting!? I have to work today! I had to get up and I’m feeling horrible!!!” At that point, I couldn’t take it anymore. I raised my voice for the first time and let her have it. I told her that yes I was hurt. I told her I was hurting because I hurt her. I said that I took the night before, that I was in tears, that I felt HORRIBLE about what happened. I also told her I also had to work, had obligations and that her feelings were not the only ones involved. At one point, during the fight, I (incorrectly and mistakingly) told her “What is this connection with your ex? I understand that you care about his kids but they’re not going to die without you. They are teenage boys! (I was mad and I shouldn’t have said that) Are you sure you’re over your ex? Or are you using his boys to show him ‘Hey, look what a better person I am. I still care about your kids.. look what you’re missing out on?’ He doesn’t care!! He left. That’s why I asked what I asked!” That night, we talked it over. Things settled down and she explained to me about the connections to his boys. I apologized, told her I was sorry, and that I understood. However, she never forgave me for it. Good time…… The next week, she, me, her little girl, and her little girls friend, took a 6 hour road trip to see a natural wonder. We had an over night stay at a hotel. When we got there, in one of our private moments, she looked me in the eye and said… “I love you.” It was an incredible moment. However, that night, we made a fort for the two little girls on the floor and drapped a blanket over them for a rough. My ex had a bed, and I had a bed. That night when the little girls were sleeping, she wanted me to get physical with her. I didn’t feel comfortable with that and I gave her a plausible excuse (don’t worry, it wasn’t anything to be offended at) and she sighed, and then we went to sleep in our different beds. I was NOT going to do anything physical with two six year olds in the room who could wake up at any time! No way! The next day was wonderful and we had a pleasant trip back. A few weeks later, the issue of control came up again during one of her moments when she was explaining herself to me. She told me that she felt like she didn’t have control over anything (I never took anything away from her because she made me too aware of it all) and she told me that she didn’t feel like she had any control sexually because of that moment. She told me “I don’t feel like I have any sexual control because I wanted you to do some things that night and you refused to.” That is the only situation where I refused physical intimacy! Problem 4. A few weeks later, I called her from my work during a break. I had started to joke with her a little bit and the conversation started out very pleasant. She laughed a bit on the phone and I asked her what she was doing. She told me that her and her friend/daughter’s babysitter had just watched a movie about a woman who coping with drug use. (her friend used to be into drugs and had cleaned up.) During the conversation she was very light and airy. When she told me about the movie I thought I’d inject some humor into the day. I said, “Yeah. Im sure that might have been hard to watch. I feel the same way everytime I watch Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.” (she and I had a running joke about me and chocolate) When I said that, she got silent. I responded, “I’m sorry, I guess that wasn’t very funny.” She got a little annoyed and said, no, it wasn’t. I apologized and told her that I had to go. I said I was sorry for what I had said and that I meant no harm. I told her that I was joking about a past joke between she and I. She didn’t say anything. We hung up and I went back to work. Later on that afternoon, I thought I’d try and brighten things up. I was trying to put a little intimate excitement into our relationship by being flirtacious on the phone. I accidentally called her during a nap. When she woke up, (she was supposed to be off that day), I nervously tried to flirt and I stammering. She asked me what I was doing and I said I had to go. I called her back two minutes later and said that I was sorry. I was little bit embarrassed and I was sorry for waking her. At that point she got annoyed at me and said “I’m sorry you’re embarrassed but that’s your problem. I’m trying to sleep and you call me up! I have to work tonight.” (according to her, the day before she had it off, when I called she had to work, when I talked to her later that night, she said that she was no longer on call and didn’t have to work.) I told her “Look, I’m really sorry. I’m really, really embarrassed right now. I’ll call you in a day or two.” (we hadn’t had one day where we didn’t see each other!). Well… that pissed her off. “I can’t believe you just said that to me! There you again! You’re going to decided when you’ll call me? Stop trying to take away control from me! I have some saying in this relationship too. Oh, and I’m also angry about what happened earlier today. I was in a reflective state of mind with my friend and you weren’t there with me!! That was so insensitive!” Well, for once I started to defend myself. I told her that I had apologized and that it wasn’t fair for me to always know what she was thinking and feeling every time. I told her that I ALSO get embarrassed and sometime I ALSO need moments to think and reflect alone. That it had nothing to do with control. When she wouldn’t hear it she said, “Well, how about I call YOU in a couple of days. You know what, I’ll call you in two days.” Well that made me angry and I said, “You know what, if you want to play that, I’ll call you next week!” It never got to that point, but the conversation only got worse. That night we talked again and she was yelling and RAGING at me on the phone. At one point, she was screaming so loud that her little girl had a neighbor come in to see if everything was okay. She tried to pin that on me. I told her that I don’t control her reactions (I wasn’t yelling at her) and that if her neighbor came in, it was because she wasn’t acting very calmly. At one point, she said that she had to go because she was missing out on playing with her daughter. Well, that touched me inside and my voice softened and I said “M… go. I want you to spend time with her and her friends. That will always be more important.” Her voice dropped deep and vehemently she said.. “I know that. Don’t tell me how to raise my daughter!” She hung up and left. That night I got several more phone calls. She told me that she saw red flags with me. I pointed out some of her faults and it went back and forth. That night after a very long conversation, she said that she needed a break. I told her that I understood. I said how long do you need? She got pissed again and said “There you again! You need an answer! You need a bottom line!! You’re trying to control the relationship again!!” I told her that was not what I was trying to do. She made me feel horrible!! We hung up. Five minutes later she calls me up (its now 9:30 PM) and she says. “Great, I wanted to thank you. I missed out spending time with my daughter because I was talking to you. I go up there to put her to bed and she’s already sleeping. I wanted to thank you for taking that time away from me.” When I heard that, I started to crack, got tears in my eye and I said “What are you trying to say?” She paused.. and she said… “I…I..” My voice cracked.. and I, trying to hold back tears on the phone.. said “I’ve got to go.” And I hung up. The next day she sent me two emails expressing her apologies about what had happened that night. I went over after work. And we hugged each other. However, things were going downhill. Problem 5. During discussions she always picked up on little things that I said and blew them out of proportion. Ex. 1. I had spoken of how I was thinking about returning to the local community college, which I attended 6 years ago and from which I already have all of my prerequisites filled out to get a “small associates degree.” (I have a Masters Degree and an associates is smaller to get in reference to time). It was brought up in a conversation. She immediately reacted and said “What do you mean a small associates degree? I have an associates degree. Are you trying to say that my degree is small?” When I told her that is not what I meant, she responded with “My perception is my reality. And that’s how it sounded to me!” (I had told her how incredibly intelligent I thought she was. Numerous times.) Ex 2. She can spread her toes. One night she was telling me about how she could do it. I playfully pestered her to do it after her refusing several times. When she finally did it, I laughed and went “eww… its like swamp things foot!” She got pissed at me. “how could you say that? You know how insecure I am about my body.” When I told her that I was just joking like I would with any other friend of mine she said..”Well, I’m not you’re friend. I’m you’re girlfriend and I deserve respect! If you want to joke around like that with me, then I can with you but you won’t like what I have to say!” Ex. 3. We were talking about religion one night. During a stressful conversation I brought up a song by a country music artist by the name of Chris Ledoux called “Bang a Drum.” When I was discussing it, I said “There’s this song by Chris Ledoux called… you know who Chris Ledoux is right?,” she nodded.. “Well.. this song…” I explained the song. When I was done she said, “Why did you ask me if I knew who Chris Ledoux was? I listen to country music all the time! Why did you assume that I didn’t know who he was? Why did you ask and instead couldn’t ASSUME that I knew who he was?!!” When I apologized and said that’s not what I meant. She responded with the whole “my perception is my reality” and she said that I was talking down to her. The last night….. Link to post Share on other sites
fireflywy Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 That was supposed to be for a seperate thread... Anyway, the last night we saw each other we had argued over the chris ledoux statement, made up but as I went to hug her goodbye, i noticed that there just wasn't anything there. I whispered into her ear and said "You're feelings for me are changing aren't they?" She said yes. And we sat down to talk it over. She told me that her feelings for me had started to change on her birthday. (The day before, I sat down, looked her in the eye, and with a tear in my eye told her how I wished I could have changed her birthday.) When I asked her why the birthday, she said "I needed you to be strong and confident and you weren't!" When I asked her what else, she started to point to our little arguments. Well, at that point, I was frustrated. I jumped up and said "That's it! It's over! It's over! I've tried to walk on eggshells. You've got me afraid of everything I might say, ask, do, or disagree with! It's over!" When I said that she raised her voice at me and said "I can't believe you broke up with me. You just took any last bit of control I just had in this relationship and took it away. You know I had abandonment issues and you just said that!!!!" I told her "How am I supposed to take what you just said? You accuse me of having red flags, you go back to your birthday which you know I wish I could change, and you tell me that you're feelings for me are changing! What am I supposed to do?" When I told her that, she said that I was just trying to shift blame. She said "I told you that my feelings for you were changing! I didn't say it was over! You ended it! You have to live with the consequences." She then proceeded to call me a mother F**ker, an A&&hole, the last of a long line, an sob (I never EVER called her anything demeaning to that degree). We had it out. At the end, we both ended up on the floor crying. She kept telling me that I ended it and I told her that I didn't want it to end. I said it out of anger and frustration. She told me that it didn't matter. All that matters is that I ended it. (i think she wanted to end it, but on HER terms). anyway, we both broke down. We ended up hugging, and at the end of the night I told her how I wanted to get her little girl a gift for her birthday because it was important to me. She said thank you. (I was there until 5 AM trying to make it work. She wouldn't have it) The next day I wrote her this.... Dear M, I have thought about the events of last night and I have reflected upon all that was said and the tears that were shed. I know that in the end, we are both people of light and strength, a strength which can move us to do incredible things and persevere. I will tell you the things that I am and the things I'm not. I am not the man who's feelings for you have died.... I am a man who still loves and cares deeply about you and yours... I am not the man who will look upon you in fear and in scorn... I am a man who will look upon you for the rest of my days as a person who brought so much beauty to my life simply because you were yourself... I am not a man who will look upon you with anger because your feelings for me have changed because of moments in our past and I am not a man who can walk away from people who have become a part of my life... I am a man who wants to be there with a hand open in friendship.. my only expectation is that friendship is given in return... In the end M, it comes down to this simple thing, a thing that I will leave for you to decide. I still want to have you a part of my life if possible. Not because I have the expectations of the past, but because I believe that friendship can still be a part of the journey which you and I have begun. I want to fill it with grace, dignity, and respect. My heart and soul is prepared for that journey, but I will let you decide in your own time and place if that is journey that you also want to travel down. If you don't, then I will understand. I will always look upon you as the exceptional woman that you are and I will treasure the moments that were ours and ours alone. With my greatest sincerity, Firefly She responded with... Thanks for the message. I don't know what to say or how to say it. Good >night Firefly. Hope you have a good week. I responded with: Its okay. You do not have to say anything now. Maybe you will in the future somewhere down the road. Until then, you have my warmest regards. I hope that the coming days are better for you. She then responded with: What is "I hope the coming days are better for you"? That makes me sound like some kind of an unstable person. That condescends me like your days are great and judging from Saturday night I'd assume they're not. Anyway, I'm sure you didn't mean it that way but that's how it sounded. That night I called her and we got into it again. When I told her that she misread what I meant we got into it again. She said that I would have to live with the consequences of my actions. She was being horribly rude to me. At one point, she was trashing me and said "Well you know what, i've been talking to some people (my parents who i confide in) and they say sometimes they feel like you don't always react normally to some things... Please take this email into your therapist so that maybe you can..." She RAGED at me on the phone 11:30, and said "I AM NORMAL!! YOU SOB!! DON'T YOU TRY AND MAKE ME LOOK BAD IN FRONT OF MY THERAPIST!!! I AM NORMAL!!! " I hung up because it wasn't getting anwhere and she was YELLING into the phone. The next morning I woke up.. and she sent me a text message saying. "Thank your. Last night my little girl woke up and was scared. I won't let you hurt US again!!!" I responded with it wasn't my fault. She can only control her reactions. (I felt horrible though). We got into a fight via text messages that day. I couldn't take it. She kept telling me I ended it on Saturday night and I kept telling her that no, I didn't, that I still cared. When she finally got nasty at me I said, "you know what, maybe I should have ended it on saturday." She said "You're so cruel to me..." Well I freaked.. and I wrote the following email. (i let go of my pride for her sake and admitted to some things in my attempts to understand her) Dear M, I'm sending this to you because the last puzzle piece of my attempts to understand you have finally sunk in. I'm not asking anything of you and to be honest I'm not even sure that you've made it this far. If you have, then thank you for listening and reading and being a gracious person even though there were many times when I did not show you the same courtesy. I also understand (at least I think I do) what you finally mean by not having control over portions of our relationship. Part of this was determined by your perceptions and part of that was determined by your reaction to me. It's hard to have a truly equal relationship between two people and to truly trust that the other partner is not holding something over your head in moments because they may know something differently than you or have a different perspective. One of the problems that I have, and which continues to bother me, is that I'm still not wholly certain what "control" I stripped away from you. You have told me of the moments which you felt control was taken away from you, but I'm still not exactly sure how. Of course, I really would like to understand exactly what you mean by that now that I'm prepared to truly listen and accept your perceptions. However, the only thing to be aware of regarding the issue of control is that there are moments, and there were moments, that I fear/feared losing my own equal status in the relationship and there are times when I will not always be able to do things that I might be uncomfortable with because that's not being true to myself. I hope you understand that. I realize now what you meant by the term "my perception is my reality" in relation to all of our arguments and problems. While there are times that I do not think I was always wrong in what I said to you for some of our more minor infractions, it WAS wrong for me to discount your perceptions. I should have tried to understand, listened to where you were coming from, and whether I truly agreed with it or not, I should have let you be there. Part of that was my fear. I got defensive at times because I didn't wan't you to view me in a way that I had absolutely no intention of coming across. As your perceptions defined your reality, I was fearful that they might come to define the overall reality that was us. I was afraid in those times that your perception of me might come to overshadow the man who was standing before you. Even though you had your perceptions and they defined your reality, I also have a reality and knowledge of myself, and in defending myself I was trying to be where I was. Regardless, I have should have let you have your perceptions. As for my angry words of last night, they were said in anger and done because my walls came up. I was hurt at some of the things I heard but I should never have retaliated in the way I did and even knowing that now, doesn't always prevent that from happening. Now that I've said those things to you, please let me tell you of the wonderful things that I do see in you. You are the most intelligent woman I've ever known. I remember coming up to see you on duy, standing with my foot in the door to your meds room, watching you leaf through some paperwork in a purple binder, and I remember thinking about our past conversations and all the knowledge you had. I remember thinking that what you knew, what you did, was something I could never do. During our conversations about geology, politics, religion, poetry (Maya Angelou), and you describing your music (Indigo Girls, Alanis and many others) I always learned from you and saw things in a different light. Even though I didn't agree with you about politics, you were able to make me consider what you said. No one else could have done those things. You did. While I've always had a fondness for the natural world, when you and I went to Colorado on our journey I felt you excitement at wanting to see new things and I treasure the fact that you wanted to share those moments with me. I had the time of my life when I was down there and I can still close my eyes and see you cuddled up in the backseat taking a nap. In our intimate moments, and beyond my initial apprehensions of myself and physical insecurities I may have felt, you awakened a new perception of myself that allowed me to be okay. I felt new and whole in your arms and for the first time in my life, I felt a connection that I had never felt before. You gave that to me. Lastly, you let me into your home. I learned how rewarding it was to have a child in someone's life and any doubts I had about my ability with children were taken away because of your trust in me to walk through the door. Beyond that, I saw how truly wonderful you were as a parent and I hope that should that day ever come where I'm involved in a childs life, that I can live up to your example. I have always said that you made me a better man. That is the truth. My only wish is that I could have given the things to you, that you have given to me. In the end, I understand if I have lost your trust and any respect that you may have had for me. Saying I'm sorry now for the pain I caused you has probably become cliche at this point but they are the only words I can express to you. Sincerely, Fireflywy and still feeling down I wrote this.... (still hurting but trying) M, > > There are times when I feel like I have things that have to be said. I'm not trying to be inconsiderate about your feelings by doing this but I am trying to do them in way (via email) which will allow you to read my thoughts at your choosing and in your own time and place. I do it this way because it's where I'm at and what I feel I have to do(not trying to be selfish) and because I feel that it does not directly force the issue as would a phone call or face to face contact. > > Onto my thoughts... > > I keep thinking about Monday night and the words that I said. In the >hours of last night, I sat down and really tried to put myself into your >perspective to "recreate" how my words impacted you. > > I'm sorry for the words "i can't fix you" and I realize how these came >across to you. I know that you have taken great steps to understand your >past, great steps moving out here to start a new life, and steps to ensure >that you experience life in ways that are best for your personal and >spiritual growth. If I had heard the words "i can't fix you" I would have >been deeply offended because, to me, who have also taken steps in my life >to change myself, it would mean that there were things about me that were >still broken. Having someone tell that to another person, would have come >across to me as the worse kind of judgement whether it was the active >intent of the person and their true feelings or not. I understand how this >would feel and I'm ashamed that I said it to you. I'm ashamed that it came >from me. > > One of the worst things I could have ever said to you was "other people >say that your reactions to some things aren't normal." Once again, I had >heard these things I know how they would have hurt. It would have made me >feel the same thing as the "i can't fix you comment" would have been. >Instead of being judged by one person, it would have made me feel like the >whole world was judging me. It would have torn me apart to hear those >words from someone who claimed to love and care about me. I'm deeply sorry. > > I don't know what the future holds for either one of us. I know that on >my end, I've spent my time thinking about ways I can dispel my ignorance by >searching for further insight. I don't want to be the man that says those >things that cause pain and hurt. I never wanted to do that to you. I know >that I'm better than that. > > It's time for me to rise....... > > As for our future, I hold onto the hope that someday I'll be able to >reach out to you and truly show you the man I can become. My journey >towards that end may be a rough one but it's a journey I'm going to take. >While this journey is one that I will take because it's right for me to do >for myself, know that it is my love for you which lead me to open the door. > > I sincerely hope that you enjoy this time with your family and friends. >I hope that God keeps all of you safe and well. > > Sincerely, > Fireflywy She responded with a thank you for your email and your apologies. We didn't speak. Then I hit a special place. I felt a moment of release and something that I had to write to her... So I wrote: Dear M, I had planned on perhaps telling you this face-to-face one day in the future but I have decided to write these words instead for fear that my spoken words might lose the power and eloquence that I hope you find contained in the words to follow. M, if you read these words, know that I say them without conditions or want of succor. What I have to say I give freely and without expectations... Last night, in the darkness before slumber, in the minutes before dreams, I felt something wonderful. While I will forever feel the sadness of the past days and live with the possibility that you might part on a seperate way, I have begun to discover how deep and wide the true expanse of my heart could be. I know how deep it runs for you.... In the moments of last night, when loneliness threatened to overcome me, I found myself in a place I've never been. I looked upon the future and reflected on the past and found myself caring about you through it all. Upon the past, I saw that even beyond my words of anger that I still cared and loved you. Gazing into the future, and a world that might be devoid of your light, I saw that same care and love for you carried throughout the rest of my days in a special place reserved for you and you alone. I don't know where you are right now or what feelings or thoughts you may have at this moment, but I wanted you to know my simple truth. That truth is this: whatever you may think of me, whatever you may do in life, wherever you may go, wherever life takes you be it near or far, whether I see you, hear you, or touch you again, my love follows you. I know that somewhere some might say that the simple truth contained in my feelings couldn't possibly be true because we only knew eachother for a short time. However, they never really saw you.... M, I want you to know that you are a beautiful person. You have a physical beauty which is beyond words. Poets and dreamers might search forever to write words that might convey the beauty one sees when they look deeply into your eyes, when they see the luscious curves of your smile, or the soft and warm touch of your hand in theirs, and never have the words to describe you. Beyond your physical beauty, and the momentary loss of breath, the sweet trembling, and exclusion of everything else around one that happens merely by seeing you, (which I know well because I always felt that way) you have an inner beauty which transcends your outer self. You have a wonderful heart M. It's strong, it's honest, it's true, it's passionate, and it runs deep. You care about people. Your friends are blessed to have you by their side when the road gets rough. Your family is blessed to have your smile, your laughter, your wit, wisdom, and your love. Children and people you've never met are blessed to have you because you show a love and caring for strangers which distance and time have no power over. Peyton is blessed to have a mother whose caring and love will open her to a future of endless possibilities. Through you, I see her doing great things... M you are everything that is wonderful, good, and right. You are everything that should be stronger in this fragile world. Should there ever come a day when one asks me "How can you feel that way about one person?", know of those things I see in you which make it possible. I want you to know that there is nothing in this world, not time, not distance, not sadness, not my fears, anyone else, nor any words that were ever spoken in anger between us which will take away my simple truth. If you ever find yourself in a moment where the life's thundering storms rage and the rain falls, know that there is a man out there who loves you. Please, know that there is a hand unconditionally open to yours should you or yours ever reach out. It may not have always seemed that way before, but it is now. That is my word.... that is my bond... that is my truth. Sincerely, Fireflywy Link to post Share on other sites
fireflywy Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Well... a week later. I sent her an text basically saying since I hadn't heard from her that I figured the relationship we once had was finished and that I was moving on. She sent me a message saying that perhaps it is for the best even though it hurts. I told her I know but I also asked her to please remember the me and what the things I wrote. She responded with, "Right now, all I remember are the bad things." I asked her to not and that was the end of it. Well, I made a BIG mistake. I mistexted her when I was responding to a friend. I told my friend via text that she was a good woman, that I did all that I could do, and as such, I had to let go of my guilt. She got the message, and responded "I wasn't trying to make you feel guilty. Glad to see you're still talking to your friends about how unnormal I am." I responded that I wasn't. That I had made a mistake. Well.. she called me. We got into it again. At one point, she hung up on me. I called her back, she would hang up before her phone message could pick up. This happened 5 times. We fought via text message for a while. I kept trying to tell her that she was a good person and that I wished the best for her. All she could do to me was say that it was my fault. That i had to live with the consequences of my actions. At one point, I told her, that I felt like I was an empty space filling for her ex. (She also called my emails above UNLOADING on her) She called me.. She said "I've talked to my therapist about that. I don't feel like you're qualified for that conversation. Also, my therapist is angry that you would even suggest that I have her look at my email reaction or discuss it with her. My therapsist said that she isn't there to validate you!! Get this.. I got angry and said... "You're a bad person M. You're being a bad person RIGHT now." She yelled and said. "You mother F**ker! I never called you a bad person!! you're a dirty fighter!!" (last of a long line, cruel, a**hole, etc but never bad person). Well, we hung up, got into some more texts. And she called me again an hour later. She told me about ALL of my faults (which I had already admitted to). When I asked her what her fault was, she told me that it was because she was "vulnerable". So, I told her that one thing that hurt me the most, was her comment about how I hurt her AND her daughter. I told her I didn't think it was fair for her to say that to me. (it was a phone call). Well, she got so angry, she physically threatened me (remember she is buff.. one time I saw her strangle a guy in the bar before I ever met her because he had touched her on the butt without apologizing). She said that I had "Intentionally pushed her buttons that night and that her raging was my fault." I told her that her reaction wasn't my fault. She was pissed at me, and finally I relented, for sake of argument, and that of course I played a role but that I did NOT do it intentionally. It was fight. I'm not proud of it, but i'm not that devious. Anyway, she was yelling, her friend interefered and tried to get her to hang up. At that point, I was broken. I couldn't take it anymore. I couldn't believe that all of this was going on. I started to get emotional and I said.."M..M.. look. I'm sorry about all of this. This is too much. I'll leave you alone. I want you to be happy.. I don't want you to feel this way..." She interupted me and said "You know what.. no... no.. I'M going to take control. I'll let YOU go!" Well.. that blew my mind and I hung up on her before she could finish. She called back 5 times the 2 minutes. .and I would pick up.. and hang up (like she did earlier, immature I know). She sent me a text message saying that I was abusive to her. (I looked up abusive. I know I wasn't). I finally thought, call her back.. let her yell at you. She needs too. Do it for her. I called back.. her friend said just end it. So I did. I sent her one last email and a text... M, I am a man of conscience. I know that there are many out there who aren't and who would walk away at this point and not have even do what I do now. That I should let it go. But for respect to you and as a man of conscience, a person who believes in right and wrong, I want you to know that I regret how things ended the other night. I was angry, I was immature, I was stubborn, I was rude, and I was wrong. I accept the reason that you ended the relationship and I will honor that reason and learn from it. I know that I'll never know this or perhaps even speak to you again, but I hope someday that in your heart'ss core that you will find a small piece of forgiveness for all the wrong that I caused and the heartache that I left you. In the end, you are a good person and the best i've ever had (as the song goes). My wish is for love and light to shower you for the rest of your days. Now I'll fade away. Right after that I sent her one last text.... "I'm leaving tommorrow ( i had a trip to NO) and I know we've said our goodbyes but what if I promised that things could be changed? What if I said that you're all that matters to me and all that I want? Could you and yours trust me again? Could our future be changed? If the answer is no then I will respect it and you will never hear from me again I promise you." She sent me this via email: Thank you for your messages of apology. I do not see any future for the relationship we shared. I do not care to communicate any further. I responded: Thank you for your response. I understand. I will not contact you any further. Thats it. 37 days NC. Do you still think there's a chance? lol.. I don't. I apologized. I showed my regret, showed my tears... and showed that I cared. It wasn't perfect but I KNOW that for as bad as all of that sounded, I have changed drastically from my past relationships. I never cussed at her when she yelled at me, the worst i ever said was the normal part, the bad person right now, and I called her difficult. People I talk to said that I'm a good guy. That I'm not a bad person. The reason I got angry at her and said some of the things I said is because she put me there. They say that she needed me to a bad person because that's all she knows how to deal with. I don't know anymore. I'm continuing NC but it's hard. I am a man of conscience and I cared. There were some beautiful moments and she did possess those things that i said she did. I wish it didn't have to end that way. I'll never let that happen again. sorry abou the post. I meant to put this into a new thread. If someone could move it, i'd be appreciative. Link to post Share on other sites
waitingforlove Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Hey fireflywy, After reading your posts about the story of your ex and you, I think you are probably better off without her. You might be "addicted" to her right now, but honestly, she doesn't sound like a very mature person at all. Perhaps her past really messed her up, but you are not responsible in fixing the aftermath of her past! She is very sensitive evidently and tends to overreact. But that's not the crucial problem. The problem is, it almost sounds to me as though she was using you to get over her ex. She hasn't really loved you. Since your relationship hasn't lasted so long, you are better off getting out NOW than later anyway. In this case, I'd think you should just keep NC. When I said you should show the girl you cared, I meant the situation in which there was misunderstanding but there was also love. In your situation, you gave her unconditional love, which was admirable, but she didn't appreciate your love in the right way. Everything you said or did was never right in her eyes, but it wasn't because you really did anything wrong, but simply because she was a mess herself. Yes there were lots of misunderstandings, but in a way, you didn't create them. She took everything in the wrong way literally. What can you do with somebody like that? As hard as it is to let go right now, I really think that's the best thing for you to do -- even from a girl's perspective. I usually tell guys to cherish girls, because I know how vulnerable girls are. But there are so girls who, unfortunately, I must say, are just not worth it at all .... Link to post Share on other sites
thekhris Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 There is a strong and distinct difference between positive and negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is generally a method to control through conditioning. Positive reinforcement promotes choice (i.e. Personailty...unless you'd prefer a robot). When you give a girl a rose, you are demonstrating your intentions through a generally accepted interpretation. Therefore, by defintiion you are making it clear that you wish to influence her into becoming your mate. From that point, it is up to her to decide. When you play dirty games, you are plain and simply; a coward, hiding behind a wall of selfish pride. If you were to tell the person that you wish to influence her/him into taking you back, they would be left in the open with their own choice of how to go about doing so, otherwise you are, by definition, manipulating them and in turn causing them psychological harm. You might as well chain them in your basement and beat them with a bat until they love you, the difference is only what your eyes see. If you were given the vision on the delicate mind you choose to manipulate, you may be inclined to demonstrate more compassion. ..ok ill have to level with you...im loosing my patiece to your mambo jambo crap...i read all your treads and post..and all your post did not help any body..never did i read a person who said"hey thanx rkman your advice help me to get my gf back"..your all post is all about initiating nc (wich all of us know the value of that already) and let everything fall in their places..that is not an advice...your just playing along to their pain but your not giving them a straight forward answer and solution to their problems... first of all this tread help a me a lot to get my gf back..i did not do it with bad intentions..because god knows i love my girl friend so much..and since the day when were back togeteher... everyting is pure happiness we love each other more...and our life is even more colorfull since we reconcile..this tread is all about iniating nc and doing the right thing and right behaviours so i will ask you, why are we doing nc's besides the fact that we need a space to heal? NC= letting her miss the things that you have. NC= realise that what she is missing without you in her life NC= let your self be compare to that new guy... This tread is all about winning her back..to win her respect..to upgrade your attraction... to make her realise that you have a great value in her life.. to make her realise that your a strong and worthy man to be his guy... I dont know what this gambo is saying...read the first topic man... its not about manipulating its about how you should behave...Just look around you..all the posters to this tread..many of the guys nice guys win there ex back bcoz they did the right thing they follow this tread..they did not manipulate them they just boost they attraction level..and show to the girl that they are a man..and dont start again about your parents story crap..there is more evidence here in this site than your storys..im the living proof that this tread is workin... my girl realise my value even damn more... Link to post Share on other sites
fireflywy Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Thank you for taking the time to read my tremendous post and offering some insight. I had suspected the same thing about me being someone to replace the old relationship and her using me to get over the ex. In many ways it hurts me deeply that I'm unable to even communicate with her at all. It's not that I want her back, but I certainly hoped that there could be some communication to at least make it so the ending could be different. I hope I said enough to convey that and I certainly hope she believes that I care regardless of how it ended. I certainly hope she doesn't have any ill will toward me. I only wish the best for her... In the end. I will be in NC mode. It has now been 38 days without contact and it truly does give someone perspective and the ability to strengthen themselves to move on. Maybe someday we'll speak again, maybe we won't but that is no longer in my hands. I accept that her life and mine are now different stories and that we are going our seperate ways. Once again, I wanted to thank everyone on here for their advice and I know that all of us will experience brighter days ahead. P.S. lol.. my grammar and spelling was horrible!!! Sorry about that. Link to post Share on other sites
whir Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 good thread..i like the best of sample number 1 Example #1 Earlier this year I met a girl in a 3 year LTR. She admitted she was attracted to me and started developing feelings for me. Things with her boyfriend were turning stale and in the end she decided to break up with him and pursue a relationship with me. I felt flattered and rather cocky knowing I had just won this girl from her long term boyfriend. Things were going well, she didn’t want to talk to him and every time he called she brushed him off. Her friends praised me, she was proud to be with me and things were developing fast. However, her ex-boyfriend suddenly changed his attitude and instead of getting jealous of me or upset over being dumped, he gave us his best wishes, told her there were no hard feelings and he moved on. He started hanging round with his friends more and stopped calling her. After two weeks of not hearing from him she started calling him to check if he was ok and see what he was upto, only to find he was fine and enjoying his free time. Soon she started pushing him to remain friends and asking him to meet up with her. He postponed, cut his calls with her short and even stood her up a few times. Yet she persisted more. All this time I could see it was getting under her skin and that I was losing her affection. I could have been the perfect guy, but he had the upper hand and there wasn’t a thing I could do about it. Every time he made an excuse not to meet her or ignored her call, she would get uptight and keep moaning about him. Sure enough she told me she wanted him back. She left me and started pursuing him all the time, but he continued backing off. She became obsessed and depressed, wouldn’t look at another guy and even burst out crying if he didn’t answer her calls. Next thing I hear, they’re back together under his terms. He had her in the palm of his hand, even cheated on her and she still stuck with him and remained loyal. nice sample..i see he did not manipulate her.. he did not read this tread or what.. but bcoz of waht he did,he save hes dignity and did not give her the pleasure of getting closure...unlike other guys who cry or what not to their gf when they being dump.. those whimpering and begging will just loose her respect to you and even more loose her interest with you..but doing the opposite well.... every action has equal and opposite reaction.. Link to post Share on other sites
sacred cow Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 me too i liked sample no. 1, and I would actually want to use it myself to get this girl whom I've dated a month ago to like me again...she's now currently dating my classmate. I've started acting like it's ok with me and even smile at them when I see them together which leaves the girl puzzled about my uncommon reaction Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts