Tim'sAngel Posted June 11, 2006 Posted June 11, 2006 Me and the SO had a conversation today in the car about men and women's sexuality. He has done alot of psychology research over the years, so I love to pick his brain! I was chatting with someone about a situation involving a man that my friend had had sexual relations with. As most women would say, she explained it wasn't just her fault, they he equal responsibility for the actions. I was discussing this issue with my SO here is what he told me and it made a whole lot of sense. In biology, the female always picks the male. Look at nature. Females have a sense of who will make the best man to have children with her. I actually saw a piece in the news once about this. I don't have the exact numbers, but a research shows that women can look at a man and in a short amount of time can tell whether or not he would make a good father for her children. Ever notice how the female birds aren't as pretty as the male ones? They have brighter colors or longer tails. This is so the femal can look at the genetics and decide which is the best out of all of them so she can pick her mate. The act of sex is driven from our need to procreate. Men feel the need to disperse their seed as many times as possible, and it is left up to the female to find a male to produce his children. As a women, I have noticed this. When a women walks into a room, be it a bar or a restaurant or wherever there are men, all the men in the room will notice her, give her attention, come up and talk to her, but whether or not she will take them home with her or make later contact with them is all up to her. This isn't always the case of course, but majority of the time it is. So to say that men and women have a shared responsibility of a sexual encounter is incorrect, according to biology. We are all animals, humans are just more sophisticated. We have a choice in how far or what levels we take it to. I also believe a women has the power to start or stop a sexual act. Any thoughts or comments?
JadeStar Posted June 11, 2006 Posted June 11, 2006 "I also believe that a woman has the power to start or stop a sexual act." I agree, I have done this many times to hubby. Jade
Author Tim'sAngel Posted June 11, 2006 Author Posted June 11, 2006 Jeez, I just reread my post and saw a bunch of typos!! Sorry guys!! I was kind of in a hurry to finish it and must have not been paying attention!!
Outcast Posted June 11, 2006 Posted June 11, 2006 research shows that women can look at a man and in a short amount of time can tell whether or not he would make a good father for her children. Well not exactly. The theory is that there are 'cues' in male appearance that can indicate healthy genes and that the female will choose males to copulate with based on those cues. Which is quite different from being a good father. And since women are still managing to produce children with genetic illnesses, etc., clearly it's not a very good system and doesn't actually work for humans in general.
quankanne Posted June 12, 2006 Posted June 12, 2006 The theory is that there are 'cues' in male appearance that can indicate healthy genes and that the female will choose males to copulate with based on those cues. lol, and I always thought those cues were about who was going to be the lucky guy getting to screw me that night ... seriously though, I think those cues (bright plumage analogy) were what helped a female decide who she was going to play biological roulette with when it came to breeding and producing the next generation. I explicitly remember meeting my husband for the first time, noticing his blue eyes and telling him that if he ever wanted to make a baby, I'd help. As open-minded a coed I was back then, I never ever said THAT to anyone before, so there must've been some kind of primal instinct urging me to want to breed with him. as for the comment about it being up to the woman to stop or start a sexual act, it goes both ways – unless we're talking solo sex, and the hand takes orders from her brain.
Nicholas Posted June 12, 2006 Posted June 12, 2006 ...This is so the femal can look at the genetics and decide which is the best out of all of them so she can pick her mate. I think that's fascinating. To use peacocks as an example, because it's a good one, the females will select the males with the largest feathers and brightest colors. In the wild though, these things are a disadvantage because it is more difficult to evade and avoid predators. Therefore, a female knows that the male must be otherwise strong to still be alive. Essentially, what the female is looking for is some kind of large handicap. I've always found that really interesting. A lot of parallels between the way mates are selected in nature and the way we do it can be drawn, but a lot are nullified by the fact that we're the only organism that has institutionalized healthcare, codified religion, and child abuse.
Guest Posted June 12, 2006 Posted June 12, 2006 There is a professor at the University of California, Santa Cruz who did research on this very subject, and it sounds like you are right on. The gist of his research was this: biologically, women want the best DNA so that their offspring will survive, so they pick the best man to be the father of their child(ren). Conversely, men "sow their oats" so that they can ensure that somehow, somewhere, their DNA is passed along. Thus the biological reason that monogamy needs societal pressure to be sustained.
kitten chick Posted June 12, 2006 Posted June 12, 2006 People collect evidence that supports their own theories. Yes there are many examples or birds that act as the peacock however there are many that act very differently. There are many species of birds where the male is the primary caretaker of the offspring. The female will produce the offspring and leave. They're the ones that continue to procreate with as many male of their species as possible. If you're going to compare humans you should stay with in the same Family or Genus. At the very least don't go any higher in the Linnaean taxonomy than the Order.
amaysngrace Posted June 12, 2006 Posted June 12, 2006 you're going to compare humans you should stay with in the same Family or Genus. At the very least don't go any higher in the Linnaean taxonomy than the Order. There is not a more complex species than humans. I agree we get together based on procreation, good genes. But after you are done having children by choice, I think it is very much animal magnetism that draws us to our potential partners, providing you are no longer involved with the person you had children with. Maybe that's why MM hit on you KC. They already have their families but you are just very sexual to them...?
Author Tim'sAngel Posted June 12, 2006 Author Posted June 12, 2006 So I'm confused, does this mean that after having children, humans should separate and find another partner? Does this mean, in terms of biology, that humans arn't meant to mate for life? Is this why people cheat on each other? Is it just in our nature? KC, I wasn't speaking for every human on the planet, I was merely making an observation based on many of the species of nature, but not all. And I also stated in my OP that I didn't have specific statistics. Again, just making an observation.
amaysngrace Posted June 12, 2006 Posted June 12, 2006 So I'm confused, does this mean that after having children, humans should separate and find another partner? Does this mean, in terms of biology, that humans arn't meant to mate for life? Is this why people cheat on each other? Is it just in our nature? No, lots of people get married and stay married. I think it's great when people pick the right one from the start. I don't think the "good" ones would ever be so selfish in hurting their spouse for their own sexual satisfaction. And I think when these faithful, loving couple's are old and gray, they can look back on their lives together with complete love, gratification and admiration.
kitten chick Posted June 12, 2006 Posted June 12, 2006 KC' date=' I wasn't speaking for every human on the planet, I was merely making an observation based on many of the species of nature, but not all. And I also stated in my OP that I didn't have specific statistics. Again, just making an observation.[/quote'] Oh I understand that, I'm just saying that we look for examples in nature that we can relate to ourselves. The fact is that the majority of species do not behave similarly to humans but the funding pours into the species that have traits similar to humans so we know the most about them. That makes it "feel" to us like the evidence points to the majority of species behaving in a similar manner to humans so we try to explain our behavior using all other species, irrespective of the fact that a good number are very different from humans. Let's face it, the fish where the female is 100,000 times the size of the male and the male lives in her reproductive system is not very interesting and will not garner a lot of funding for scientific research and observation. They're not like us in any way but we'll never hear about them.
Yamaha Posted June 12, 2006 Posted June 12, 2006 It's about supply and demand. Women know they have more choices in which to have sex with men. They can be choosy because men are much more willing to settle for anyone. If more men said no then women would be just as desperate as us males.
amaysngrace Posted June 12, 2006 Posted June 12, 2006 If more men said no then women would be just as desperate as us males. Some men do turn down women. I know of one guy who did this when she was naked in his bed, he told me he just couldn't do it. He said it was something about it being too easy. It turned him off.
Nur Posted June 13, 2006 Posted June 13, 2006 Does this mean, in terms of biology, that humans arn't meant to mate for life? I read in a National Geographic article that the chemicals that induce the feeling of "being in love" last from four to six years, the time it takes to raise an infant into young childhood. After that, it takes work to keep that feeling. Oftentimes older couples will be more friends than lovers. Many people stay together for companionship and for economic reasons.
Tony T Posted June 13, 2006 Posted June 13, 2006 I don't know about this genetics thing. It's a good idea but as Outcast pointed out above there are enough screwed up people to prove it's either not working or not being practiced carefully enough. Frankly, I think the species has degenerated sufficiently that a female's mate selection if often (NOT ALWAYS) swayed by the male's financial statement, the car he drives, his bank account balance and what kind of house he lives in. Genetics really doesn't play a role in all that...or at least not a big one.
tanbark813 Posted June 13, 2006 Posted June 13, 2006 I don't get how it can be said that one gender always picks the other. Logically it doesn't make any sense since both partners have to consent (assuming we're not including rape or molestation in the discussion). I've turned down plenty of women. In those cases, they weren't doing the picking, I was. In other cases, I've been turned down and it was the woman doing the picking. But to say one gender ALWAYS does the picking is incorrect. I've been in situations before where I was dating multiple women initially and then picked which one I wanted long term. Females have a sense of who will make the best man to have children with her. I actually saw a piece in the news once about this. I don't have the exact numbers' date=' but a research shows that women can look at a man and in a short amount of time can tell whether or not he would make a good father for her children.[/quote'] This goes both ways. Men are typically attracted to big breasts and curvaceous hips because instinctively a woman of those proportions has a better chance of succcessfully bearing and raising many children. Ever notice how the female birds aren't as pretty as the male ones? They have brighter colors or longer tails. This is so the femal can look at the genetics and decide which is the best out of all of them so she can pick her mate. It's not just about sexual attraction. Male birds also have brighter plumage to lure predators away from the nest while the female stays behind with the eggs/babies. As a women' date=' I have noticed this. When a women walks into a room, be it a bar or a restaurant or wherever there are men, all the men in the room will notice her, give her attention, come up and talk to her...[/quote'] This is mainly because of the way our society is and the fact that a lot of men have no game. In seriousness, though, this isn't always the case. I've been approached more times than I've done the approaching.
Author Tim'sAngel Posted June 13, 2006 Author Posted June 13, 2006 Frankly, I think the species has degenerated sufficiently that a female's mate selection if often (NOT ALWAYS) swayed by the male's financial statement, the car he drives, his bank account balance and what kind of house he lives in. Genetics really doesn't play a role in all that...or at least not a big one. It's not just about sexual attraction. Male birds also have brighter plumage to lure predators away from the nest while the female stays behind with the eggs/babies. Regarding TB's comment, I never said it was a sexual thing for the birds. The female bird would be looking for for mates with those qualities because that to her would be the ideal mate. Kind of like a women looking for a stronger male to be a protecter. Regarding Tony's comment, my first comment applies also except human females would be looking for qualities like his financial statis and living conditions, which would be the same as the bright feathers on a male bird. I personally would not want to date a man who cannot support himself and lives in a shack just like the female bird wouldn't want a male bird with dull feathers who might not be able to protect her and their offspring.
Author Tim'sAngel Posted June 13, 2006 Author Posted June 13, 2006 These are all really great comments guys!! Thanks for the replies. I was hoping however that I would get more comments regarding whether one believes that men and women have a shared responsibility when it comes to a sexual encounter.
Woggle Posted June 13, 2006 Posted June 13, 2006 If women are so sure that a man will be a good father why do so many women end up picking deadbeat sorry excuses for fathers? I think it is the fact women on an average are much more choosier than men. Men are not socialized to never turn down sex. If more men said no things would probaby change. Some women don't take rejection well either because they are not used to it.
RarePearl Posted June 13, 2006 Posted June 13, 2006 In biology' date=' the female always picks the male. [/quote'] Not applicable for humans; among people, men CHOOSE women - women only choose among the men who chose them! Men might be less picky and more laid back about casual sex, but when it comes to falling in love, men are pickier than women. Both among animals and humans, the males court the females and are able to seduce them. If a man doesn't like a woman, there is not much she can do. Men are more visually oriented, women look deeper inside so logically men choose rather on first sight, while women are not very "lucky" on choosing on the first sight, unless the men like their physical appearance. Please don't mix this up with women approaching men - if the man likes the woman, he will welcome her in his arms. If not - she is not chosen by him. Females have a sense of who will make the best man to have children with her. It takes intelligence, experience, and common sense to feel which man is capable of being a good father. So many fatherless households, all kinds of abuse in marriages, and divorces show that women can be very wrong, even when they pick men who already have children. And female animals actually pick the alpha male, who has to seduce the female and beat/kill the other males. She doesn't just pick the father of her little ones according to her physical preferences. And again, a few males will fight over one female that THEY have chosen! So to say that men and women have a shared responsibility of a sexual encounter is incorrect, according to biology. We are all animals, humans are just more sophisticated. We have a choice in how far or what levels we take it to. I also believe a women has the power to start or stop a sexual act. In reality, most sexual acts are started by men. What's "shared responsibility of a sexual encounter" mean?
Author Tim'sAngel Posted June 13, 2006 Author Posted June 13, 2006 Not applicable for humans; among people, men CHOOSE women - women only choose among the men who chose them! Then in the end, the women still choose. It takes intelligence, experience, and common sense to feel which man is capable of being a good father. So many fatherless households, all kinds of abuse in marriages, and divorces show that women can be very wrong, even when they pick men who already have children. I completely agree, but lets not forget that in nature, since we're comparing the two, some animal males leave once their seed has been concieved and it is left up to the female to raise the young. What's "shared responsibility of a sexual encounter" mean? Well, IMO, it takes both a man and a women to find their way to the bed, it just seems to me in the end the women is the one to say how far it goes. So when my friend made the comment "He is just as responsible as I was", I couldn't help but disagree. I've never once had been in bed with a man that turned me down, but I have turned men down in bed.
tanbark813 Posted June 13, 2006 Posted June 13, 2006 Well' date=' IMO, it takes both a man and a women to find their way to the bed, it just seems to me in the end the women is the one to say how far it goes. So when my friend made the comment "He is just as responsible as I was", I couldn't help but disagree. I've never once had been in bed with a man that turned me down, but I have turned men down in bed.[/quote'] He could have left at any point. Since they both consented then they are equally responsible. If they each could have stopped things at any point, then I don't understand how there can only be one that says how far it goes. The likelihood of stopping things is irrelevant.
RarePearl Posted June 13, 2006 Posted June 13, 2006 I completely agree' date=' but lets not forget that in nature, since we're comparing the two, some animal males leave once their seed has been concieved and it is left up to the female to raise the young.[/quote'] Yes, this is very true for most animals (not all though). Nature wants both genders to choose, it doesn't want bad genes from either side. However, humans are different from all animals, just like cockroaches differ from whales or cats from alligators. "He is just as responsible as I was", I couldn't help but disagree. I still don't get the responsibility division. Are they competing whose merit it is that they both had great orgasms? Responsibility implies that someone is guilty or in charge of something.
Author Tim'sAngel Posted June 13, 2006 Author Posted June 13, 2006 Yes, this is very true for most animals (not all though). Nature wants both genders to choose, it doesn't want bad genes from either side. However, humans are different from all animals, just like cockroaches differ from whales or cats from alligators. I still don't get the responsibility division. Are they competing whose merit it is that they both had great orgasms? Responsibility implies that someone is guilty or in charge of something. Well in my friends case, which is what inspired this whole thread, the end result of the sexual encounter was bad, and all the sudden she felt the need to point fingers. I prolly should have stated that in my OP. You've all brought up good points, but I just can't help but feel women in some way, and I'm talking about sexually, seem to be a little in charge. This is my experience anyways, I'm sure plenty of you women have lots of experiences of your own. I will go into a public place, and instead of walking around initiating conversations, men would come to me. I would then decide whether or not I wanted to keep talking to them, or find an excuse to go look further. Then, when I found someone I really clicked with or had chemistry with, then he would ask for my number, we'd set up a place for a date... When things would start to advance into a sexual area, he or I would initiate the idea, then things would progress. This whole time from the moment we met until this moment, I'm knowing that he wants sex. Hes a guy, and hes obviously interested in me because hes pursuing me, so of course he wants sex. I, at any point, can stop the progression. You don't really hear alot of (or at least I don't) men complaining that a women pinned him down to the bed and forced him to have sex w/her, just like you don't really hear of men being raped by women. Yet if my hypothetical man would insist on we continue after I have stated I do not wish to, I would consider that rape, because it was agaist my will. I'm not saying a man can't or won't stop a sexual progression, I'm just saying I haven't heard of that happening a whole lot. There is always an exception, I'm speaking in general. Anyways, for me at least, I feel more responsible for my sexual encounters with men.
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