Just trying to understand

[Guest]

I recently found out a friend of mine doesn't belive in God or Jesus. I have known this friend for about a year. I love her to death, shes a great person with a good heart. I really didn't talk with her much about it becasue I didn't want to inpose on what she belives or doesn't believe. However I did ask her one question and that was, Why do you not believe in God?" Her answer was, I don't care for consequences, and if people are going to have consequences even as christains then why be one? might as well do whatever we want anyway."

 

My question is for those who don't believe. Was it something you learned from your parents? Your parents were perhaps non belivers so its what you learned. Or did something happen tramatic in your life, thinking God would be there for you, then when things happened that weren't so good you lost faith? I'm not going to stop being her friend because of her beliefs, just trying to understand maybe why people who don't believe feel the way they do.

[konfused]

That is an interesting twist that you've added. I would venture to say that atheism is not something you learn, but rather the default belief. Religion is what you learn. I became an atheist when I learned about the theory of evolution. I became very interested in organized religion and studied up on it a lot. Here are my conclusions and why I don't believe.

 

Religion is a form of social control. When large communities of people strive to live together, there must be order and ethical behavior. Secular laws have long been thought "divinely inspired" in order to enhance such conformity. This is not to say that I don't understand the role of organized religion, but rather that I recognize it for what it is.

 

The more personal experience that people relate to being "communication with the divine" stems from our inability to conceive of rational explanations for external events, i.e. bad things happening, volcanoes, comets, etc.

 

Have you ever had a dream that was so vivid and so real that you thought it represented reality. Like something bad happened to a family member and when you woke up you had to call someone to check on the situation in order to relieve your anxious mind. Now imagine a person doesn't recognize dreams for what they are and they dream of a recently deceased person. If that boundry between dream and reality is indistinguishable, then this person might think the recently deceased person lives on in an afterlife. Granted, this in only one minor example of these personal connections with the divine.

 

I am an evolutionist not only in biological terms but also in terms of culture and ideas. I don't believe in revealed religion but rather in the evolution and change of religion over time to suit the needs of larger and larger societies.

 

As such, I have long battled with the assumed selfishness of humans. According to evolutionary theory, we are selfish entities who only care about ourselves. This seems very in line with what some believers would consider an original sin. That is we are selfish and only care about ourselves. Some have argued that if we are completely selfish, as evolution ascribes, then where does morality fit in. I struggled with this particular questin until I learned about game theory. It provides an interesting approach to morality that explains why the phrase "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" makes perfect sense for a selfish entity. If you would like to check this out do a search for the phrase 'prisoner's dilemna'.

 

All this has been knowledge that I've picked up on after I made my decision to be an atheist. The turning point was college. I studied geology, which is the study of the earth, and could no way blend the evidence found on the earth and the account written in the bible as to the creation of the earth.

 

Moreover, the more I studied the more I realized how much from the bible was borrowed material. Monotheism is assumed to be borrowed from the Egyptians, the biblical flood and garden of eden fromt the Sumerians, and the concept of good and evil from the Persians. This is not to say that if the bible is contradicted then God does not exist. My rejection of the bible was based on physical evidence and also on the theology argument of hell. I, for one, do not believe and all-loving god would send anyone to hell.

 

As for Jesus, he can be explained in a number of ways. As Christianity became the state religion of Rome, it replace all the pagan festivals. The Feast of the Nativity, All Souls Day, Christmas, and Easter all have their pagan equivalents. Also, the entity of Jesus as savior, born of a virgin, resurrection, and son of God were not new ideas to the Christians but borrowed themselve.

 

This is why I am an atheist. By the way, I feel somewhat like the early Christians by way of prejedice. In a survey of Americans, atheists were voted as least trusted, even below Muslims and homosexuals - not that these two groups should not be trusted.

[Brittanyjean06]

Some people just have their own way of looking at things, there not always going to think the same way as you.

 

Now if you had parents raise you to believe and this, and pinned it in your head, well chances are you are going to believe In it. I don't think anything trauamaticlly happend to your friend, I just think she has her own outlook on things. Now we are human, and even with religion we are to be considered sinners everyday, so in a way...whats the point, Is how she feels. It's really hard to understand things, and believe in these things....because there is so many reasons to back up as to why god woulden't exisit, and why he does.

 

Just be a good person not matter what, No one really knows what this life has for us after it is over. Sorry if that was off subject.

[Tim'sAngel]

My SO isn't an athiest, he says he believes there is a Higher Being, just doesn't believe in Jesus. This makes me sad because I very much believe in God and Jesus. HE says he was raised going to church and believing what he was told, but as he got older and began studying religion, he started seeing flaws in it.

 

Seems like your friend is one of those who doesn't want to be told what is right or wrong. She just wants to liver her life the way she wants without regrets. I guess to each his own...

[Guest]

My SO isn't an athiest, he says he believes there is a Higher Being, just doesn't believe in Jesus. This makes me sad because I very much believe in God and Jesus. HE says he was raised going to church and believing what he was told, but as he got older and began studying religion, he started seeing flaws in it.

 

Seems like your friend is one of those who doesn't want to be told what is right or wrong. She just wants to liver her life the way she wants without regrets. I guess to each his own...

 

 

Thanks for the replies. I also agree to each their own and I wouldn't force my opinons on her or anything. It hard to say i guess why she feels the way she does. I know her father wasan alcoholic and was abusive to her and her brothers and sisters. I know that she has had a failed marriage, which doesn't mean thats why she belives the way she does or anything, guess it could be a contributing factor but not sure on that. She has a good heart, but no longer belives in marraige since her first one failed. Thinks that cheating is wrong since it was done to her, so she must beleive in something I guess. Shes a good person with pretty good morals. Not saying that non believers don't, just saying when talking with her she seems to maybe be struggling with the meaning of life, but then again I guess we all do.

[whichwayisup]

My question is for those who don't believe. Was it something you learned from your parents? Your parents were perhaps non belivers so its what you learned. Or did something happen tramatic in your life, thinking God would be there for you, then when things happened that weren't so good you lost faith? I'm not going to stop being her friend because of her beliefs, just trying to understand maybe why people who don't believe feel the way they do.

 

Both of my parents were brought up with religion forced down their throats. I guess they decided to bring us up with no real religion forced on us. As kids I do recall going to church afew times, but that's all.

 

My dad was an antheist (he died in 1993) and my mom, well, she isn't big on the whole religious thing.

 

Because of their choices, I didn't get to learn about the bible. I honestly don't know much so that's why I tend to stay out of most religious discussion because I have NO background on anything.

 

I'm a good person with morals, I had a normal and happy upbringing, alot of love from both of my parents, so no church influence had anything to do with that.

 

Do I believe in God? Yes and no, but not in a religious way. It's more spiritual and more about Mother Nature, a higher source of energy than a "God".

 

One main reason why I don't like religion is the problems it causes. Between friendships ending, relationships that cannot happen (even though those two people are inlove) as it's forbidden for certain cultures/religions to mix - Wars, terrorism, etc...(I am just speaking my mind, this isn't about ANYONE here on LS, so please don't take this personally.)

 

My husband is Catholic and he goes to church most Sunday's. I don't and that's OK. It hasn't and never will get in the way of "us." We respect eachothers thoughts and we make sure nothing becomes an issue. I can honestly say religion and money never comes up in any kind of arguement we have.

[converse02]

My question is for those who don't believe. Was it something you learned from your parents? Your parents were perhaps non belivers so its what you learned. Or did something happen tramatic in your life, thinking God would be there for you, then when things happened that weren't so good you lost faith? I'm not going to stop being her friend because of her beliefs, just trying to understand maybe why people who don't believe feel the way they do.

 

I'm an atheist. Atheism isn't a belief, it is a conclusion. When one seeks knowledge by exploring the history of religion, science, logic, and psychology, they will realize it make far more sense to understand the universe under scientific and naturalistic terms than to make up a supernatural explanation (God), which many primative cultures have been doing for centuries. Since there is no evidence for the existance of God, just by Occam's razor alone, there is no need to suppose one exists. Humankind has not even agreed on what the definition of God is, so how can one believe is something without a definition?

According to adherents.com, there are 1.1 billion secular/agnostic/atheists on the planet. Japan is nearly 65% atheistic/agnostic. I ensure you, not everyone in that group is suffering form a traumatic experience or is from a dysfunctional family.

 

Christianity, on the other hand, is learned and is usually indoctrinated into children at a very young age, before they develop that ability to reason or employ the scientifc method. People tend to "get religion" after a particular traumatic experience in their lives, such as after Katrina or the death of a loved one.

 

As such, I have long battled with the assumed selfishness of humans. According to evolutionary theory, we are selfish entities who only care about ourselves. This seems very in line with what some believers would consider an original sin. That is we are selfish and only care about ourselves. Some have argued that if we are completely selfish, as evolution ascribes, then where does morality fit in. I struggled with this particular questin until I learned about game theory. It provides an interesting approach to morality that explains why the phrase "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" makes perfect sense for a selfish entity. If you would like to check this out do a search for the phrase 'prisoner's dilemna'.

Evolutionary theory doesn't not state "we" are selfish. Richard Dawkins, a evolutionary biologist, explained altruism in evolutionary theory in his book "the selfish gene," saying it is our gene's and meme's that are selfish (gene's, of courses, aren't really selfish in the human sense. They are just self-replicating molecules.) Bees sacrifice themshelves for the hive, mothers for their children, and soldiers for there nation. Bees sacrifice themshevles for the hive, as the hive will carry on that individuals bees genes. Evolutionary theory accounts for altruism.

[Outcast]

When one seeks knowledge by exploring the history of religion, science, logic, and psychology, they will realize it make far more sense to understand the universe under scientific and naturalistic terms than to make up a supernatural explanation (God), which many primative cultures have been doing for centuries. Since there is no evidence for the existance of God

 

That we have found yet. We thought people couldn't travel to the moon, too. Nobody imagined that you could carry a computer in your hand. We were positive the sun revolved around the earth. Because we are too stupid to find the evidence doesn't mean it's not there. It may be found by the next generation or in a couple hundred years. But those who believe that their own generation has discovered all the truth there is to discover are doomed to live in a box of their own making.

[converse02]

That we have found yet.

As an atheist, I completely agree with the above post. Science is an ongoing process with hundreds of peer-reviewed journals published by faulty humans each month. We will never have all the truth. We may be to stupid to find evidence of God, just as we may too stupid to find evidence of magical elves and unicorns.

 

It is possible that tomorrow, Zeus and Thor will show up on my doorstep and start hurling thunderbolts. That Jesus or Buddha will appear from the sky and start conjuring whole families of dinosaurs out the thin air. But this to me is as likely as science discovering the tooth fairy or verifying scientology. I don't believe such a thing will ever happen. I'm not holding my breath.