Wife won't apologize... Even after a request.

[AManWithTroubles]

Last night, I was talking with the wife. I still feel unwanted in this relationship. She keeps on doing her things, and not even asking me for her to be part of her life, unless of course, I need to do something she doesn't do, like changing the brakes on the car.

 

So I try to tell her that she really needs to work at this relationship too, if she wants it to work out. I am beginning to feel that she just wants us to be together, but not "together". As if us sharing the same house means we are married. I am feeling used, as if I am here just to make money and do some of the tougher jobs around the house. She needs to want something out of the relationship too, like affection, intimacy, whatever.

 

Anyways, onto the apology thing. I bring up the fact that she sometimes says things that I find to be cruel. I reminded her of the romantic getaway incident, from this thread: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t89817/ . I was looking at my wife, when we arrived at the hotel, and she went off on me, basically cussing me out and stuff. Usually I wouldn't find myself to be so sensitive, but I really want to have a good relationship with my wife, but I keep finding hints of resentment, everywhere.

 

I told her that she never apologized to me for going off on me like that. She told me that she felt uncomfortable with me looking at her. So I said, well, your approach was way off, because you questioned and assumed intent in my stare, and cussed at me, instead of simply stating you feel uncomfortable. Then I asked her again, if there is any way she could apologize to me for her actions. She simply said no.

 

I think I am quite aware that this marriage is over. She always has her guard up. I'm not in a fighting mood anymore. I really do want to just get along with her, but even this morning, I jokingly mocked my 4 year old son, who just asked her some question like, "Why are you changing your shirt?" So I asked something like, "Why are you wearing THAT shirt?" And she goes off, "Like you haven't questioned what I wear!"

 

Whoa, it was a simple joke, besides, haven't we all questioned what our spouses wear at one point or another in time. She will tell me what not to wear to certain outings, and I have questioned certain shirts she wore to work when I was suspecting of her having an emotional affair. I just didn't want her showing too much breast to him at that time in our life. But why did she even bring this up? I get this all the time.

 

No matter how light the situation, she brings something up. But she told the counselor that she was ready to move on, and that she was truly in love with me. I ask her if she loves me, or if she wants some time alone to work things out. She says she wants to be with me forever. I just don't think she wants to, at least her actions don't show me that. It's hard to get along with someone who just keeps harping on things, and has completely negative feelings towards me.

 

Ok, I'm just rambling now. I am seriously thinking of a trial separation, she needs to see what it's like without me, so she can decide if I am worth missing, or if life is so much better without me. I'm tired of this. Seriously.

[catgirl1927]

I don't blame you for thinking about separating. It really does sound like she just wants you to support her and take care of her and not ask anything at all of her and like she really doesn't want to be married to you. I mean, she's uncomfortable with you looking at her? That's crazy.

[sugarplum]

Honestly, if she can't apologize on her own, do you want it anyway? Would she only be apologizing because you asked her too? Would it be sincere? I would just let that go. If she hasn't done it yet, I doubt she will. Sounds like there is more important issues than a lack of apology. and would one really make anything better? I am the one "ignored" in my relationship too. I beg and plead with my husband for time alone with him (thinking a man would be flattered) and I am repeatedly turned down. It really stinks. There are obviously issues going on that she is not telling you. She needs to, but I dont know how to tell you to get it out of her. I have found one thing that works when my husband shuts me out. I act like I dont care, like it doesn't bother me a bit, and I dont want to interact with him anyway. I can't say it helps anything overall, but I can see it brings him down a notch and I swear sometimes I can see him thinking about things. And while you are waiting for her to stop acting that way toward you, remind her that you do want a good relationship with her like you said any chance you get - and dont cheat! Take up a new hobby to distract you.

[Pink_Tulip]

You know, one thing I learned the hard way from my own marital issues was the importance of the 'wake up call.' I think LJ would agree with me, hopefully she will post as she always says what I mean, but smarter.

 

Anyway, basically your wife has no reason to change. She can treat you like crap all she wants, because, what are you gonna do about it? Nothing. She has no motivation to change whatsoever. She is happy and comfortable doing what she is doing with no consequences, and so she will continue doing it until YOU change. YOU make consequences for her behavior. And maybe one of those consequences is a seperation. But you MUST do SOMETHING!

 

I am not trying to yell at you, but speaking from experience, I know what you are going through. The longer you wait for her to change on her own, the more resentful you will get become and the harder it will be to recover anything from the marriage. the change must come from you. Good luck.

[whichwayisup]

You are right. Her actions are not backing up her words to love you and make the marriage work.

 

This is how I see from where I sit. She looks at you as the provider, the father of her children. Outside of that, you're a roommate to keep her company...With that being said, she feels that she can do what she wants, when she wants and doesn't have to run it by you, respect you or your thoughts/feelings. You are supposed to be there for her and DO what is necessary to make sure she can have her own way.

 

Your wife is having a HUGE midlife crisis (affair or not) and she doesn't want to live up to her promises and vows to you. It's her way only and she isn't going to bend.

 

Yeah, that's SELFISH!

 

Hate to say it, but maybe a trial separation is what needs to happen. She needs a wake-up call. Just a shame that the kids will be hurt in all this, but they're hurting NOW anyway...If she moves out (she should be the one to move out) atleast the kids won't have that intense weird energy around them.

[Ladyjane14]

I think LJ would agree with me.....

 

LJ most emphatically agrees with you.

We're like a two-headed woman lately!

 

Anyway, basically your wife has no reason to change. She can treat you like crap all she wants, because, what are you gonna do about it? Nothing. She has no motivation to change whatsoever. She is happy and comfortable doing what she is doing with no consequences, and so she will continue doing it until YOU change. YOU make consequences for her behavior. And maybe one of those consequences is a seperation. But you MUST do SOMETHING!

 

I am not trying to yell at you, but speaking from experience, I know what you are going through. The longer you wait for her to change on her own, the more resentful you will get become and the harder it will be to recover anything from the marriage. the change must come from you. Good luck.

 

I agree with WWIU too:

This is how I see from where I sit. She looks at you as the provider, the father of her children. Outside of that, you're a roommate to keep her company...With that being said, she feels that she can do what she wants, when she wants and doesn't have to run it by you, respect you or your thoughts/feelings. You are supposed to be there for her and DO what is necessary to make sure she can have her own way.

 

And THIS from SugarPlum:

Honestly, if she can't apologize on her own, do you want it anyway? Would she only be apologizing because you asked her too? Would it be sincere? I would just let that go.

 

You posted back in March that your wife had asked you for a separation, which you avoided at the insistance of your MIL. You went for counseling instead.

 

Now, here you are a few months down the pike and no progress. Are you still in counseling? Have you considered changing therapists?

Sometimes it's necessary to get another opinion or take another approach.

 

In your other thread describing the vacation incident, you wondered if PMS was the culprit in her bad behavior. While PMS is a true b*tch and can even make a woman feel suicidal in severe cases.... you've got a history established whereby your wife has shown you consistantly bad behavior. She's inconsiderate. She's rude. And she's obviously got some sort of grudge going on. I don't think you're dealing with just PMS.

 

Your concerns aren't being addressed. They aren't even being heard at this point. Initially, I wanted to tell you to look her square in the eye and tell her you were taking her up on her offer to separate. But.... I think there are still more options available. Too often, trial separation becomes the real deal.... the first step on the road to divorce. You need to REALLY be in an emotional place where you're cool with that before you take it to that level.

 

The first thing you need to figure out is what her reasons are for holding this grudge. Does she have some kind of unresolved beef with you? She might not volunteer any information about that. She's withdrawn from the relationship to a large degree and doesn't seem to be sharing her inner thoughts.

 

This is the email from your wife to one of her friends that you posted back in March.

This kid (boy's name) is a really quiet and I had been back ... for a few weeks before he would actually talk to me. One day he started talking to me and told me that he is a twin so of course I started picking his brain. It is a little scary how much we have in common and how little I have in common with my husband but you know, that's just stuff.

 

Maybe that is how it is after 10 years for anyone. I don't know, but this isn't a good time. It hasn't been for a long time but (boy's name) kinda makes it worse because the last thing I needed to know was that there was someone out there who was actually like me and gets me. I have spent a lot of the last 10 years living in my own little world, because we really don't have a lot besides the kids and football in common and this is turning into a confession....

 

He treats me like a girl, but I didn't get any flowers yesterday. You know what I mean? Maybe I am being blind, I know I am being blind, he has said things that made me think that this could be trouble, but thats why I am here, getting it all off my chest in a neat and orderly fashion. I kinda don't care if its trouble.

 

Something's missing in her relationship with you. She noticed the attractive qualities of a coworker, but I'm thinking that maybe she noticed them because she's found them lacking at home. She says again and again that she doesn't feel like she has things in common with you. She doesn't feel that you understand her, you don't "get" her.

 

People don't just shut down like that out of the blue. There's a reason that she's drifted away. Maybe a good place to start figuring out what needs to be addressed would be to make a list of her pet peeves.... you know, stuff that she's complained about over the years repetitively. Once you have your list, look at it with NEW EYES. Make it your own. Walk a mile in her shoes, and think about how you can solve some of those issues.

 

You should also assess ENs (emotional needs)... both hers and yours. This will give you an idea on what's missing between the two of you. Once you've identified ENs, you can start working on getting them fulfilled. Ask for what you want, but don't be offended when you don't get it. And be generous when it comes to fulfilling hers. You've both got alot of work to do before ENs are being met consistantly.

 

There's a questionairre at marriagebuilders.com that can get you started. You might also read a copy of The Five Love Languages by Chapman, or His Needs / Her Needs by Harley.

 

There are two noteworthy articles at MB for you to have a look at as well, Why Women Leave Men, and The Three States of Marriage. I think you'll find them both enlightening. Print them off and share them with her too. The Why Women Leave Men article is written gender-specific, but really..... I think it applies in the reverse too. When one person is shut out of the other person's life, the pain is the same.

 

Meanwhile, see if you can engage her in some home journaling. That's as simple as keeping a notebook for just the two of you where you can each 'post' to the other. Writing slows down the thought process. It allows you to say what you mean without the heat of strong emotion. It's a great way to clear up misunderstanding and miscommunications. Try not to be disappointed if she doesn't post as much as you do. She's currently not as enthusiastic about the relationship, afterall. If you can just get her to take the time to read your entries, you'll be ahead of the game.

 

Once you've done EVERYTHING that you can think to do, and you're 100% positive that your nose is perfectly clean...it's time to start thinking consequences. Action begets reaction. After you've picked this problem apart from every angle and looked at it again with NEW EYES, if you find that you need to 'up the ante' and consider separation.... you'll be feeling alot more confident in your decision. Otherwise, you'll always be second-guessing yourself.

 

The trick to taking a "New Eyes" approach is to put all the preconceived notions you've had regarding her motives, and put it ALL away. Clean the slate. Start fresh, as if you've only just now been confronted with the problem. Disconnect your emotional response and look only at the data.

 

The overall concensus is that you need to DO something. I agree. If you change nothing, than nothing changes. But there's no reason that you have to take a negative tack yet. Taking positive action is still "taking action". There's always time for sterner methods later, right?

 

 

 

 

p.s. What happened in your marriage isn't all your fault. You shouldn't think for even a minute that it is. Reaching out to a withdrawn spouse requires that you dig deep though, and because she's disengaged, it's all going to have to start with you. It's not fair. But what in life ever is?

[whichwayisup]

LJ, you're the best and that was awesome...Great post, once again!

[AManWithTroubles]

That's a good post, LJ, I like it. I'm going to try to put these things into action. We have some time alone; kids are away at the grandmother's house for the weekend. She is tired right now, and made it apparent to me. So I left her to fall asleep on the sofa, well, after she watches hours of IFC and knits.

 

This is one of the problems we have. We usually don't do much, and she just likes to watch these shows on the television, like boring IFC movies, and saddening documentaries where people die. I'm more of a sci-fi and comedy freak, so the television is never agreed on. And she doesn't talk much, at least with me, so I don't know what to do with her. I just always feel like I'm being pushed away so that she can watch her television and knit, and not be bothered. I get the feeling that I am in her way. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it. Maybe this journal idea will help. The funny thing is, she said that the thing that she liked about that kid at work, is that he didn't expect her to talk. Wow, she doesn't talk to me either, what's the difference?

 

Anyways, a little history. We married young, well, I was even younger. We had twins right away. It was tough, they were quite the handful. I was young, and never had a relationship that lasted more than two weeks, neither had she, if she had one that lasted that long. So here we were, two inexperienced young people, growing up together, with babies. Let's just say that I could finally buy beer when my twins were a few months old. My wife has two and a half years on me. You do the math.

 

So, I had no idea about what to do, how much nurturing the relationship took. I probably had this invincibility feeling, like she would just always be there for me. I was not the kind of young man who went out drinking, although I did that maybe once every two months at that time. But I spent a lot of time playing RTS video games online on the computer. I became addicted. I did help with the babies, though, don't get me wrong there. If anything, I have always been a good father, maybe not the best husband, but I do love my children more than anything.

 

So I think I lost many bonding moments with my wife at that point in our relationship, and it wore her down, especially since she had her hands full all the time with the twins. I lost tons of sleep over them too, it actually cost me an accident and a brand new car.

 

So, fast forward a few years of this behavior, and we get to the point where I'm in the civilian world. I was in the military when this all began. Well, then reality kicks in, and we realize that we have to split working time, or do whatever we can to pay for as little child care as possible, to afford life out there, where everything costs money, and you don't know where your cash is coming from. So, there are times when one of us are working nights, other days, and vice versa. Sometimes I may have worked two jobs, so she can stay home. Whatever it took.

 

Then we decided to pursue this college money that the military will give me. So, we move, and I go to school, work, she works, whatever it takes to get us through. I just graduated, and I am applying to places all over the nation right now. It took me a bit to get my reel/portfolio together. Life is hard afterall, oh yeah, we had a son at the same time we decided to pursue a higher education.

 

So, I am quite sure that our lifestyle has pushed her to the point of numbness. She is used to being alone now, and is having a hard time allowing me back into her life. But I obviously need to be, if this is going to work out. For one, she already decided to see what's out there outside of marriage. Two, I'm tired of being treated like s***. I realize my faults, and that life in general creates a rift between people, but I just want her to be in love with me again, or I want to get away, so that I don't have to be with someone who doesn't love me.

 

Well, that's my life story, for what it's worth. At least the later part of my life. Thanks for your time everyone, you people are great. I wish that my wife even looked for answers like this, but it doesn't appear that she does. But if she did, she might come across this too, and a war would erupt.

[whichwayisup]

I just want her to be in love with me again, or I want to get away, so that I don't have to be with someone who doesn't love me.

 

I hope she understands what she might be losing. She has the chance right now to fix things and get life good again. You two have a long history together, children, marriage and family entwined...She better be realizing what her life will be like if the time comes you've had enough and want to walk away. There's nothing more painful than to be with someone you love and doesn't love you back the same way.

 

Sorry for your pain. Try to have a fun weekend with your kids...Take care.

[Ladyjane14]

(Thanks for the nice compliment, WWIU. I'm all blushey. )

 

This is one of the problems we have. We usually don't do much, and she just likes to watch these shows on the television, like boring IFC movies, and saddening documentaries where people die. I'm more of a sci-fi and comedy freak, so the television is never agreed on. And she doesn't talk much, at least with me, so I don't know what to do with her. I just always feel like I'm being pushed away so that she can watch her television and knit, and not be bothered. I get the feeling that I am in her way. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

 

This is one of those "preconceived notions" I was talking about earlier. See.... the idea itself is harmful. It sets the tone for your interactions. It's an assumption to believe that you're just 'in her way'. You're putting words in her mouth, and then tailoring your actions to suit that belief. You expect her to not want to be with you or talk to you.... and you approach her from that angle.

 

It might be true that she prefers to watch TV and knit. But what's true today.... might not be true tomorrow.

 

You can let all that go. Drop your expectations of what her behavior is going to be. Wait and see what it actually is. Tie goes to the runner, right? You have nothing to lose, and EVERYTHING to gain by giving her the benefit of the doubt.

 

When you measure each separate interaction without the lens of preconceived notions, you have an opportunity to look at it in a new way. Sometimes, you'll see bad behavior on her part, true enough....but sometimes you'll see misunderstanding of each other's position. You two are locked into a rut, where you each think you know everything about the other. There's nothing new to discover. I seriously doubt that's true.

 

The junkie TV programs and the knitting probably have nothing whatsoever to do with you. She might just find it relaxing to knit and watch junkie TV programs. Some people need more solitude than others. I fall into that catagory myself, actually. But when you adopt the position that it's all about avoiding YOU, you set up parameters for behavior based on that particular belief.

 

You know, my husband takes a nap every day of his life. It used to bug the crap out of me. I felt like I must be so BORING that he just couldn't be bothered to stay awake.

But when I stopped reacting to it from that standpoint.... I could see that he just needs his nap. It makes him feel better. He's a happier person. Even better, when I started supporting his need to take naps... he stopped feeling guilty and defensive about it. As a bone of contention, it ceased to exist.

 

This isn't much more than following the Golden Rule. It's true that I usually don't need a nap. I find that whole groggy, just-waking-up thing to be an experience I'm only willing to tolerate once a day! But when I 'walk a mile', if taking a nap was MY thing.... I'd want the freedom to be ME.

So, I prioritize his need to nap as if it were my own, and I treat him like I'd like to be treated.

 

You can't MAKE your partner adopt that attitude, but I think you'd be surprised at the level of reciprocation that's possible when you change the way that YOU act and react.

 

You have some tools in your arsenal already. She likes to knit. Why not get behind her and support her hobby? Admire her work. Build her a storage unit for her supplies. Wind yarn with her. Ask her about her projects and LISTEN when she talks about them. You know, I'm a quilter. My husband isn't interested in learning to sew, but he's got a damn fine eye for color and he's willing to offer up some advice when I ask it. He supports my hobby when he can, and it makes me feel like he's there for me. All in all, I know that he's placating me and not really interested in quilting, but it's not about the quilting anyway.... he's showing interest in ME.

 

You don't watch TV together, but that's okay. Married couple don't have to have the same taste in programming. (I'm with you on all that depressing crime drama, btw. No way I'm sitting through all that!) But there's no reason why you can't rent a movie together twice a month, and make a home theatre night out of it. Pick a title you BOTH might enjoy, pop some popcorn, turn out the lights, and 'go to the movies' right there in the living room. You don't have to have all these things "in common" in order to respect each other's taste. The trick is simply not to disrespect the other guy's preferences.

 

You both have three other little handy 'tools' in your arsenal by the way. Parenting together can be extremely bonding. Particularly when you make some time for FUN, and not just chores. An hour playing a board game as a family, can be a great experience for everyone. When you put the emphasis on having a good time together rather than using the time to teach... it's even better. Too often, family-time ends up being quarrelsome. But it doesnt' have to be. With kids, there's always going to be some kind of DRAMA, you know how it is.... but if you limit the duration of the activity, and let the kids work out their own emotional responses, it can be very rewarding for everybody.

 

You don't have to devote a whole day to family-time. An hour at the local fishing hole, baiting worms is plenty. And it give you an opportunity to hold your wife's hand while you walk, and gallantly bait her hook for her. Same thing when you take them to any kind of little community event. A little craft fair, an agricultural event, a short trip to a museum or historical site, or even going to the mall or grocery store.... these are all opportunities to bask in your 'coupleness'. The trick is... that you walk alongside of her, and pay attention to her as if she were your date. You get out of the rut, and you get her out of her element. If you keep the activities fairly brief, so they aren't too strenuous... you'll enjoy even greater success.

 

Meantime, develop some new hobbies of your own. You don't want to get into something that eats up too much of your free time, but spending a few hours a week doing something that's constructive and just for YOU... makes you more interesting. It also give her an opportunity to reciprocate supportively. Say, you're gardening or building birdhouses. These are constructive, relaxing things. They're not detrimental to your family-time. They aren't addictive like gaming can be. And your wife has an opportunity to maybe pick up a new tool for you, or cut out a magazine article that she thinks might interest you.

 

These are all small things, and they won't fix all your problems right away. But you can't eat a bear but ONE BITE at a time, right?

 

When you let go of some of the preconceived notions, you'll also begin to let go of old resentments. As you look for ways to be considerate of one another, you find ways to validate each other's feelings. You both become more secure, less defensive. Eventually, there's less to fight over.

 

You two started out young, that's true. But you're only missing something if you THINK you are. There's nothing out there worth having that you don't already have in your grasp. It takes work, and it takes committment from BOTH of you. Eventually, your wife will have to step up to the plate and change the way she does business. For right now though.... it's a beginning to show her what a great guy you are, and that you're worth the effort.

[Brianschick]

ok, LJ..you are very insiteful and obviously have some expierence in what you talk about but, I am married to and I am much like Amanwithtrouble's wife.

When a wife is done..basically, she is DONE. This woman sounds like she is not at all intrested in making this marriage work. She gave up a long time ago.

I have only been married a little over six yrs and I'm feeling like Amanwithtrouble's wife. I do the same things to my husband. I just don't give a dam anymore. I hate feeling this way and I know I"m hurting him but I just don't have it in me. We are more like roomates...he trys to make it more but I'm all set.

I really think Amanwith should just cut his losses (as cold as that sounds) and move on. There is a woman out there that wants to love him and treat him like he deserves to be treated. Why put all this wasted energy into a person that has no desire to make it work?

[AManWithTroubles]

Ugh. Brianschick now scares me, really. That would be a lot of wasted time and effort. Can I just come right out and ask her if she is really done? Ask her honestly? I would hate to waste many more years of my life if there is no hope. I'm not getting any younger, after all.

[Pink_Tulip]

AMan- don't let that scare you! LJ and I were both DONE with our marriages at one point. I mean I was totally DONE!!! But we are still here, doing better in many ways than ever. That is why you need the wake up call for your wife. She may really be done and leave, but then again, she may realize what she will be losing and be willing to do the work. No one can tell you for sure, but having resolution one way or the other has GOT to be better than what you have now.

[RecordProducer]

When a wife is done..basically, she is DONE.

Or a husband...

 

This woman really acts like she doesn't love you, but wants to stay with you. Why? I think she is having an affair, but doesn't have the guts to leave the comfortable marriage. The other man might be married too.

 

I am not saying she is necessarily cheating, but she doesn't show love or respect, if what you described is the exact truth: she constantly has an attitude, ignores you, etc.

 

In any case, it could be 50% your fault too. The greatest misconception people have in a marriage is when they only see the other party's faults and never look in the mirror.

 

My husband claims that he knows he isn't perfect, but when asked to name his imperfections, he names none. He doesn't see them. He is completely oblivious as to how wrong he is sometimes.

 

Ask your wife what she doesn't like about you. Listen carefully and trust her on that. All her reasons are legitimate since that's how she feels and she can't control her feelings. Start from there. Divorce should be the last, not the first, resort.

[Woggle]

Just leave. Even if she changes her tune when you threaten to leave do you really want a woman that won't treat you well on her own?

[AManWithTroubles]

I think I'm going to work on it.

 

I guess that maybe I'm just paying attention to all the things that she does that hurts me now, since the whole "I don't love you" episode. She does do things to show love too, I guess. She makes really nice dinners, but I think that's more for herself than anyone. But it's great to have a good cook around. Uhh, she, well, she tries really hard sometimes, ya know, when it gets to the point of my almost explosion. I just have to push her to push herself.

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't love myself either. I had her record me today, just doing some miscellaneous things. I was doing it for references. Well, I saw myself on the computer, in video, and I decided that I couldn't love someone like me either. My gut really is beginning to grow. I'm nowhere near obese, but I'm probably 10 lbs overweight. I guess commuting 20 to 25 hours a week, and tons of schoolwork done a computer does that to someone. Plus my exercise is limited due to a physical ailment, nothing I can fix, without a major surgery. But I move weird too, or something. It's just that I saw myself, and thought wow, no wonder she doesn't like me in a physical way. I need some work.

 

So what if the sex life sucks. Or she hollers at me out of the blue. Or brings up problems from the past during light-hearted moments. I'm by no means perfect either. I will sit here at my computer every night, making it my friend. I will get up early, and do whatever exercise I can. I am cutting out beer altogether. And I will not play another computer game until I am making the big bucks. I need to put forth some effort into myself.

[Woggle]

You are convincing yourself that you deserve it. I bet she is far from perfect as well and you don't deserve to be treated like that. Don't let her destroy your self esteem.

[silktricks]

So I left her to fall asleep on the sofa, well, after she watches hours of IFC and knits.

 

This is one of the problems we have. We usually don't do much, and she just likes to watch these shows on the television, like boring IFC movies, and saddening documentaries where people die. I'm more of a sci-fi and comedy freak, so the television is never agreed on. And she doesn't talk much, at least with me, so I don't know what to do with her. I just always feel like I'm being pushed away so that she can watch her television and knit, and not be bothered. I get the feeling that I am in her way. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

 

Your situation sounds so much like my H's and mine of a few years ago that it's just plain scary. I was exhausted and so terribly jealous of my husband. It seemed that he had so much freedom to do whatever he wanted and I had none. I became resentful, and filled my life with hobbies so that I would have "something" that was mine. Though I thought I had tried to tell him what was going on with me, I didn't let him in on my level of depression, and constant dreaming of suicide, and he wasn't able to take in what little I could share.

 

So. . . can that be where your wife is at? It sounds like you've been so busy with making a living, and she's been so busy at taking care of children that you've lost touch with what attracted you to each other in the first place. Taking care of children is exhausting, and in many ways extremely unrewarding, it's like working your socks off for no money, and no accolades from society either.

 

Is she ever willing to talk to you about how she really feels, deep down inside? Does she feel safe doing so, or do you ever become in any way critical of her thoughts when she shares them? I felt like I was crawling out from under a rock when I started opening up to my H. Any expression of criticism, and I went scuttling back out of the light.

 

I think LJ always gives the best advice, and I'm not nearly as articulate, but does your wife know that you really care about her? If my husband left me on the couch to watch TV and sleep, I wouldn't think he did. Show her that you want her, not just physically, but want her as your companion.

 

#1. throw out the TV.

#2. remember all of the things about her that you found so fascinating when you were dating? talk with her about those things.

#3. remember the difference about talking to someone and conversing with someone. Converse. Have dialogue. I know that you've said she doesn't want to talk, but it could be that she doesn't want to talk about anything hard.

#4. get away from the house, and away from the kids.

#5. touch her. rub her feet, rub her back, rub her head. help her relax, not as a prelude to sex, not as a prelude to anything, just relax.

 

Don't give up. The two of you have worked hard on fitting society's roles. Maybe society's roles don't work for you all that well. Work on finding your own roles.

 

Maybe it is too late for your marriage, but there's no doubt it's too late if you've both decided it is. I really really hope you can work it out.

[Ladyjane14]

 

I guess that maybe I'm just paying attention to all the things that she does that hurts me now, since the whole "I don't love you" episode. She does do things to show love too, I guess.

 

It's a natural response for a guy in your position to become overly sensitive to nuance. She's giving you mixed signals afterall. Her actions don't meet her words. She told you 'I don't love you', but she still does nice things for you. She tells you she wants a separation, then she tells you she's willing to try to work things out. And then.... she doesn't put the relationship work in, but rather returns to the status quo. What's a guy supposed to think???

 

You know, it's completely possible to still love someone.... and not be in touch with that emotion. It happened to me, and it happened to Pink, much as she told you in her last post. We were both DONE with our husband's at one point.

 

For my part, I couldn't feel the love I had for my husband anymore. My resentments were blocking it. Like your wife, I continued to include him in family life, cooking meals, washing socks, and occasionally bringing him little gifts.... but I would have SWORN that I only loved him like a family member. I even gave him 'duty sex' about twice a month, but really, it was just to keep the peace. It was just another chore. I wasn't feeling much of anything romantically for him.

 

So yeah... it's possible for you and your wife to rediscover each other. I can't guarantee you it's going to happen for sure, but if you clear up the old resentments, I think you'll be able to better assess your situation. In the example Silktricks cited for you, you can REALLY see how powerful those unresolved resentments can be.

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't love myself either. I had her record me today, just doing some miscellaneous things. I was doing it for references. Well, I saw myself on the computer, in video, and I decided that I couldn't love someone like me either. My gut really is beginning to grow. I'm nowhere near obese, but I'm probably 10 lbs overweight. I guess commuting 20 to 25 hours a week, and tons of schoolwork done a computer does that to someone. Plus my exercise is limited due to a physical ailment, nothing I can fix, without a major surgery. But I move weird too, or something. It's just that I saw myself, and thought wow, no wonder she doesn't like me in a physical way. I need some work.

 

It's always a good thing to get the appropriate amount of exercise and to be physically fit, but I very much doubt that your wife's lack of libido is due to your love handles.

I know you saw a recent thread that discussed a similar topic, but the fact remains that there was resentment existing in that marriage. Having experienced loss of libido in the past, I can't give much credence to the idea that it's all about physical attractiveness.

 

My husband is JUST as attractive physically in my eyes as he was when we were dating. But when I was mad at him.... I didn't find him appealing AT ALL. What I've noticed these days though, is that when your relationship is emotionally close... a few extra pounds or a little 'snow on the roof' isn't going to get in the way of TRUE LOVE.

Please do yourself a favor, and don't get bogged down in self-loathing.

 

You're trying to apply REASON to someone else's unreasonable behavior. But you're putting words in her mouth when you make assumptions. I know she's not talking, and she's not giving you much to go on. But until you've improved communications, you're just going to have to do your best not to draw conclusions. There are just TOO MANY possible variables for you to be able to guess accurately. The best you can do is to eliminate behaviors that you already know are unsuccessful on your part.

 

I'll use my own situation as an example again. One of the chief reasons that I wasn't talking to my husband was that I truly believed that he was using my words as ammunition in subsequent disagreements. So, if I shared an inner fear or flaw, he'd use that in a "You always...." or "You never...." sort of way later on and slap it back in my face. Only some of that was true though. Most of it was actually my own sensitivity to it. My belief in it made it so in my eyes. It became my truth. Once our communications improved and he became cognizant of my sensitivity, he stopped doing it altogether, effectively eliminating the behavior that I had become sensitive to.

 

This is where your pet peeves list comes in. These are things that you already know are bugging her. You can eliminate some of the possible causes for resentment by addressing that list. You can also reinforce the positives by addressing the ENs list.

[Timberlane]

One of the things that split my wife and I up was that I could not for the life of me sweet talk her into anything. Just stubborn as a mule. She learned it from interacting with her mother, who was always a pusher. Ugh. Oh well, you can ask and plead, but if you have to do it that much the payoff isn't worth it.

[carmaenforcer]

Hi AManWithTroubles, My Wife has the same problem as yours seems to have. She will never say she is sorry for anything, either she fights her cause tooth and nail or simply tries to skip the whole thing and just try to sneak up on my all like nothing happened after she thinks enough time has passed, like I forgot how much of a bitch she was to me. She flies off the handle for anything, is quick to be rude, mean and proud of it at the drop of a hat for the simplest things. I used to try to reason with her but that went no where, so I simply warned her one last time that if she didn't correct her behavior that I would simply start treating her the same way she did me. In her cocky ignorance she kept it up thinking I was bluffing and I simply started being mean back to her, she doesn't cook so if she was being a jerk I simply wait until she is hungry and comes to me like nothing happened asking whats for dinner and I tell her "f*** you, cook your own dawn dinner" if she comes up wanting a massage like she had become accostumed to getting daily I tell "her get away from me" or I simply yell back at her like some freak when she yells mean s*** at me and when she tells me don't talk to me like that I remind her of how she is going to get what she tries to give me, each and every time. I am naturally a nice, respectful person though, so I am not 100% consistant about my jerky behavior but I have been keeping it up as best I can and it's starting to work.

I think some people (WOMEN) will try to get away with as much as they can until they are stopped. Like a 2 year old testing his boundaries and like a 2 year old they have to be taught manners and that their bad behavior will get them bad treatment.

Just the other day my Wife tried leaving me on the side of the road because I brought up something that she was trting to get away with me that I had told her wasn't going to fly. We carpool to work and after work of this particular day we had done to a neighboring town for dinner. I had been also practicing not talking about things till I'm good and ready, if she pisses me off I don't bring it up right away because it will just start a heated argument and since she is not good about listening to reason, having a logical conversation or taking blame when she is obviously wrong I have gotten into the habbit of just staying quiet until such time as I feel I can gain some ground or punish her for her actions. Anyway she had noticed my not talking or looking at her and she bugged me until I told her what wass wrong, when I finaly did she admitted to knowing what she was doing to piss me off but just told me to get over it. I didn't and since she pulled me out of my shell to fight, it was on.

Long story short, she threatend to leave me there 50 miles from home, I shut up long enough for her to calm down enough to let me in the car and about 12 miles from home I started up again, simply asking her why it was so hard for her to understand the concept of respect for someone other than herself. She then pulled over and tried to kick me out of her car. I asked her toplease just take me home, she refused and when I asked her how she could even think about doing something like this to me, I would't ever do it to her, she simply said, "that's the diference betwen you and me, I'm mean you nice."

I tell her you say that like it's a good thing, to which she replies "it is a good thing, good for me." I asked her again to please just take me home and then she can go where ever she wants, she refusses and yells at me to get out of her car.

 

So this is what I do, I take her cell phone out of her purse, knowing how important it is to her and tell her take me home and you can have it back. She then proceeds to slap and punch me in the side of my head about 7 or 8 times, yelling for me to give it back to her the whole time and me calmly asking take me home and you will get it. I finally get out of her car, spend the night at a freinds, ignring her attemps to reach me through that same freind's girl freind and the next day she tried to get me to come back home.

She apologized, half assed, saying everything but the actual world "I'M SORRY" and I told her you are never to do that again.

 

Like I said, since they act like spoiled brats you have no choice but to treat them like spoiled brats and check them.

[Ladyjane14]

Carma... If you two are just going to continue ramping up the conflict, you should probably think about getting away from each other. The adversarial behavior you two are currently engaged in is NOT going to be a healthy environment for a child. And there's quite frankly NO WAY that you're going to fix your marriage by increasing the acrimony. All you're doing is turning oppositional behavior into the norm. Over-the-top fighting becomes the status quo.

[AManWithTroubles]

I don't know now. I know it's too soon to judge, but...

 

We had a heart to heart yesterday, and worked out some of that resentment. She told me some of the things that are bothering her. I explained myself. Things went much better all day, and at the end of the night...

 

We made love. Not just lie down and take it, but the good kind. She took the top and actually put me inside of her, and pushed body parts into my mouth. Sorry for the graphic scene, but it was great.

 

And now, hopefully she remembers what we talked about, so that she doesnt' misinterpret me. So, basically the problem was her misinterpreting some of my actions, and holding it against me. Why does it take her so damn long to tell me her problems? This can not be good for the long term relationship. But for now, I will just cut back on those actions that she misinterpreted, although it's kinda natural to me. Time to beat nature.

 

I'll keep you people updated, but I seriously think we can work this out.

[whichwayisup]

Sorry for the graphic scene, but it was great.

 

Don't worry 'bout that. Guess you haven't wandered to the other area's of LS.

 

Good to hear you two connected...Maybe this is the start of something. She seems to only want to talk and open up when SHE'S ready...

 

Though, as much as you are feeling good right now and I don't want to rain on your parade...Look for change in her actions...One night of love making and intimacy isn't going to erase the problems you two have right now...

[Pink_Tulip]

Hey AMan, that is great. Baby steps.

 

You said something that I went throught msyelf. When my H and I were going through it, I NEVER talked about anything that was REALLY bothering me. I'd bring up little things, but never the really big stuff. I think it was mainly b/c there was a part of me that felt, if he really loved me, he'd just KNOW that hurts me! Immature, I know, (and I have a degree in psych! DUH!) but when you are in the middle of your own crap, logic is not your friend. And I also thought, if he really loved me and wanted to work on this, he would ask me whats wrong, he would try, etc. You obviously have done that part, which I think is great. But it has been years, and I am still working on expressing my feelings when they come up, rather than holding onto them. For some people, it is a real learning process. Please don't expect her to change overnight. But you can help her by continually talking to her. I saw an interview with some relationship psych one time, dont' know where, and he said a good thing for couples to do, was every night when it's quiet, sit down and ask eachother what your relationship meter is at today. So from a scale of 1-10, 10 being the best, you can each say what you felt. If she says 7, it is a way to discuss why its a 7, and what would have made it a 10 for that day. Basically it keeps you always talking, and always learning about eachothers wants and needs.

 

And one last thing about resentments... If something comes up for her and she has a bad day or takes something out on you, please be understanding. As my H and I were in counseling and I was processing years of me being done, stuff came up and I would get sooo hurt and angry, to the point of my going into rages and the counselor questioning whether I was bipolar or not... LOL! You may think that b/c she is now opening up it is smooth sailing... for me it was the EXACT opposite. The road back is VERY hard, but it IS progress.