On becoming a cliche . . . and when do I say enough?

[Virginia Girl]

Sorry in advance for how long this is 9the scary part is I tried to keep it brief) - thanks for reading and responding!

 

My husband and I have been together for 13 years, 9 of them married. In the last two years, our life has been a bit stressful to say the least. For example, his brother and his brother's wife have both had drug problems which have required them to go to rehab 9the wife three times), they have had money problems and a host of other problems (at some points on an almost daily basis) that we are constantly pulled into and forced to deal with - usually in the form of a cash donation. Last year after a week long hospital stay, my husband discovered that he has a potentially life threatening genetic condition, which is now being controlled by medication. In November, we got custody of my husband's three year old cousin (who has some special needs as she does not really talk yet) as her separated parents both suffer from varying degrees of mental illness - however, we have to deal with both of them quite frequently as they do have visitation. I run errands, and pay the bills, for my husband's disabled aunt who lives in an assisted living facility near us. My husband and I both work and we have two children of our own aged 3 and 6. In addition, right after Thanksgiving my husband's father was diagnosed with brain and lung cancer.

 

My husband and I had periodically (on average about every 6 weeks, but sometimes not for months) gone to marriage counseling over the last year and a half, but really had not been since late last year. Throughout the winter, my husband had not been a nice person - he was irritable, working and drinking more and treating me rudely and was quick to fly off of the handle. Not to say that I was Miss Sweetness and Light during this time - it was stressful adding a new child to our family - our youngest took it very hard at the time (although she has grown to love her new "sister"). My husband basically left me to deal with the new addition (who I initially was uncertain about adding to our family, but who, I too have grown to love as if she were my own child), her parents, and his family's other assorted problems at the same time that I was trying to work, deal with my own family (including my parents - I am an only child).

 

In late February, my husband came to me and said that we needed to separate, that he knew we had problems, but he could not be bothered to work on them any more. His dad's illness had made him realize that "life was too short not to be happy." The only way to save our marriage was to be apart - he wanted us to rent a furnished place and the two of us would take turns staying and at home with the children. He said that there was no one else - he was disconnected and not engaged in our marriage. He did not want anyone to know about the separation, including our children. He moved out in March. I quickly tired of going to the other place - it was not what I wanted and I missed my children so I said that I would not go - he wanted to leave so he could go. A few weeks after he moved out he said that while he was not 100% sure that we should be divorced, he was not hopeful that we could save our marriage. Since he moved out, I see him about every day - he works in the building next to mine and I even see him in the cafe in my building, in addition to seeing him when he comes to see the three children.

 

A few days before Mothers' day, I decided to treat myself to a new cell phone (you can all see where this is going, can't you?) and discovered that my husband had been text messaging and talking on the phone to a divorced waitress 10 years younger than him (he has even introduced our 3 year old daughter to her) since early December. He says that they are just good friends and he is not sure why I am so upset - he should have told me about their friendship, but she has absolutely nothing to do with our problems and the fact that we are now heading toward divorce. I absolutely believe that she is a major factor in why we are where we are now - the more he talked to, text messaged, and hung out with her (oh yes, he has been out with her and her friends and to her house), the meaner he was to me.

 

So, here (finally - as you all sigh in relief) is my point. . . We have three children so I believe that we should not divorce unless we are sure and we have done our best (not a religious thing, just a responsibility thing) to sty together. So, I keep trying to convince him to go to more (different) counseling with me and to work on our relationship. He says that he does not want to give me "false hope." On the other hand, he refuses to actually file for divorce - when/how do you know that it is time to give up? If we did not have children, I honestly probably would have given up already - I am so hurt, angry, and embarrassed as now everyone knows that we are separated and most people know about his "friendship" too. Although he does not want to go, he says that he will go to one more (that is all he will commit to) counseling session with me (better be the best damn counselor in the world). So, should I give up or should I continue to hope that he will snap our of his second childhood?

 

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond . . .

[Ladyjane14]

I saw your post on another thread, and thought maybe I'd paste down a reply that I just put on someone else's. (It saves on the typing! )Your situation is similar, albeit not exactly the same.

 

I also recommend the marriagebuilders Plan A & Plan B. You should also read Surviving An Affair by Dr. Harley for more information on the plan.

 

I would recommend to you that you incorporate some 180's into your Plan A. Begging and pleading seldom work. Here's a list:

Michele Weiner-Davis, re: DivorceBusting

 

 

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or

implore!

2. No frequent phone calls

3. Do not point out good points in marriage

4. Do not follow him around the house

5. Do not encourage talk about the future

6. Do not ask for help from family members

7. Do not ask for reassurances

8. Do not buy gifts

9. Do not schedule dates together

10. Do not spy on spouse

11. Do not say "I Love You"

12. Act as if you are moving on with your life

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get

busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends,

etc.

15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start

the conversation) be scarce or short on words

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his

whereabouts, ASK NOTHING

17. You need to make your partner think that you have

had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you

are going to move on with your life, with or without

your spouse

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull

back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more

important, realize what he will be missing

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show

your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him

someone he would want to be around.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on

hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which

may be a while)

21. Never lose your cool

22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic

23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes

their feelings stronger)

24. Be patient

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really

saying to you

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you

want to speak out

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh &

focus on all the other parts of your life that are not

in turmoil)

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly

29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest

CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any

words you can say or write

30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you

are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with

your spouse

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than

50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in

absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad

you feel

34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes

 

In all likelihood, your husband has lied to you about only meeting this OW recently. It's a very common tactic for adulterers to make it seem as if their affair hasn't been going on all along. They do that because they hope to improve their divorce settlement and custody issues without the bias of the court.

 

Here's a recent post by one such person. I'm not going to point out her name or thread, but I want you to understand that there REALLY is a certain amount of premeditation in some of these situations.

Yes, tragedy and heartbreak are clearly in someone's future. If we handle our situation as we plan, no one will know that our relationship began before the marriages were over. The plan is well thought out and will work as long as we are careful. No, the wife doesn't know and she won't know unless one of us tells her. Our relationship comes with a lot of baggage and we are handling it the best way that we can. We are not planning to drop a bombshell on anyone or hurt anyone. We are planning to have a mutual decision made between all parties involved. It's a long story but I can tell you that this is not a relationship that was not thought out and planned. It is a situation that we willingly persued and when the timing is right, the spouses will know that there will be a divorce, but I hope that they don't find out about the relationship. It is very private, very delicate and we handle it well. It just works for us right now.

 

You should see an attorney immediately in order to protect yourself and your children. It's possible that your husband has ZERO intention of working things out with you and is just stringing you along in order to keep you cooperative. It's also possible that he's fathered an OC (other child) on the OW. If so, you need to protect your own children FIRST. Sometimes, that means being the first to file for child support. You may need to legalize your separation in order to get that accomplished.

 

You can find some legal information on line at sites like url]divorcenet.com, but bear in mind this is no substitution for specific legal advice from an attorney in your area.

 

If I were you, I'd only "Plan A" for a short time, maybe a month or two. Then I'd hit him hard with "Plan B", which as you'll see when you read the information, involves minimal contact. You'll need to make preparations for how you'll handle parenting issues in advance. You absolutely should do whatever you need to do to protect your family even as you Plan A. So, see that lawyer!

 

I'm sorry that you're going through all this, and I know it must be very difficult for you emotionally, but you've got a crisis on your hands.... and you've got ALOT to do in order to combat it. Don't let yourself get bogged down by your own emotions. You need a clear head in order to get it all done.

 

[Guest]

I saw your post on another thread, and thought maybe I'd paste down a reply that I just put on someone else's. (It saves on the typing! )Your situation is similar, albeit not exactly the same.

 

I read through this plan A and it made me so sad to see that women or men go through this kind of walking on glass just to get their spouses attention! Its pathetic. Its a list of "do not's" and "nevers" that are absolutely impossible for any individual to maintain...least of all a betrayed spouse who is devastated. This is a list that sets you up to fail and then puts the blame back on the yourself if you don't "win him/her back". Then the last point is the kicker...instead of saying "do not backslide on your hard earned changes" it should say, "now don't slip up and act hurt or like you give a sh*t or he just might cheat on you again and then it'll be all your fault for now following plan A"... I mean what is "never lose your cool" and "learn to speak softly"? Is this a dog training book? Geez.

 

I'm not suggesting anyone do the complete opposite of what you have outlined in this list but my Lord, how can a person who's entire world has just been severely rocked, be "cheerful, outgoing, strong and attractive"? Its my understanding that people are typically devestated and in complete shock that they have been betrayed and are so hurt that they can barely think straight, much less act as if everything is "just fine"..... which is a gross understatement of what this list suggests a betrayed spouse attempt to do. Be honest with your husband and don't carry on some charade of being "okay" just to win him back. You are aloud to be devastated Virginia Girl because something devastating has happened to you. Give yourself the freedom to grieve for goodness sakes. You can't be perfect and maintain perfect behavior--no one can. Not even the author of Plan A. The most glaringly obvious reason for that is because you are human being created with real feelings, real emotions and the ability to feel real pain. You were not created with a heart that has the capacity to maintain auto pilot simply to keep a man who--oh my gosh--might stay with his other woman if you don't.

 

The other problem with Marriage Builders is that it completely disagrees that co-dependence in a relationship is unhealthy and takes it so far as to suggest that co-dependence is good for a marriage. Good luck finding a marriage counselor that subscribes to this line of thinking. Every organized group in the world (AA, Al Anon, SA Anon, etc.) readily identifies co-dependence as being poison in ANY relationship. You may find some extremely helpful advice on that site as well as others and I hope that you do. But please, give yourself the freedom and grace to feel the emotions that are in you right now.

[Virginia Girl]

Thanks for the advice - some of the things I had thought of and some I had not so your response was very helpful - I am definitely focusing on protecting my children and myself. Especially since tonight I confirmed what I had long suspected - that his friend is not just a friend. Since I now have proof, I have not shed a tear (although I suspect that I will at some point) this final, and for me complete, betrayal has hardened my heart and my resolve. So again thank for your advice about protecting my children - it was very timely. Take care.

[dgiirl]

Guest, from personal experience, the people ON the site are exactly how you described. If you dont keep your cool, then it's completely your fault the marriage is where it is. And I agree that is wrong. However, some of the material on that site and on divorcebusting which LJ quoted has some validity. By all means, you shouldnt discard your feelings, and you definitely need time to grieve. However, most of what I read are a list of things not to do in front of your partner. Grieving, begging, crying in front of your partner is not going to win him back, it's going to push him further away. Honestly, if you were in their shoes, would someone crying/grieving/begging you be attractive? I personally would be running in the opposite direction, and fast. You need to show them that you are ok without them. That you are having a good happy life. And you might give them something to be curious about. And if it doesnt work for your marriage, it's ALSO the first steps to getting your confidence back so you can move on. So in my eyes, it's a win win.

 

Virginia Girl, if he's willing to go to counselling, why not go? What do you have to lose? I would go, even if nothing comes of it.

[Guest]

I agree that you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak, and ban the entire site. I just know that in order for me personally to be able to show that kind of strength, I wouldn't be able to maintain the "act" for more than about 10 minutes. Maybe not, maybe I'd be so devastated that it would translate into an "I'm fine without you and moving on" persona. I don't know...I don't want to know actually. I guess the "list" touched a nerve. The WS has literally thrown a wrecking ball into your entire world and now you have to thinking about a strategy to make them want you. UGH... I think I'd be more likely to be able to adhere to a strategy on how not to beat the hell out of them.

 

Guest, from personal experience, the people ON the site are exactly how you described. If you dont keep your cool, then it's completely your fault the marriage is where it is. And I agree that is wrong. However, some of the material on that site and on divorcebusting which LJ quoted has some validity. By all means, you shouldnt discard your feelings, and you definitely need time to grieve. However, most of what I read are a list of things not to do in front of your partner. Grieving, begging, crying in front of your partner is not going to win him back, it's going to push him further away. Honestly, if you were in their shoes, would someone crying/grieving/begging you be attractive? I personally would be running in the opposite direction, and fast. You need to show them that you are ok without them. That you are having a good happy life. And you might give them something to be curious about. And if it doesnt work for your marriage, it's ALSO the first steps to getting your confidence back so you can move on. So in my eyes, it's a win win.

 

Virginia Girl, if he's willing to go to counselling, why not go? What do you have to lose? I would go, even if nothing comes of it.