Contemplating divorce...

[sunseed]

I have a question: If I am contemplating divorcing my husband because of lying, emotional neglect and verbal abuse, is it appropriate to tell his parents when he hasn't yet mentioned to them that we're having problems? I think they may have some insight and may encourage us to stay together, so that might be positive in the long run, but since they're his parents I am not sure how to proceed. My own folks, btw, are hopeless.

[portableversion]

Why tell them? In hopes of them saying "please stay together?" What matters is what you want, not them.

[sunseed]

Well I guess I'm not sure what I want, honestly. On the one hand my most basic emotional needs are just not being met, and my husband will do almost anything to avoid meeting them. (Yelling, shouting, guilting, shutting down, hanging up on me, breaking things, verbal abuse, the old foot-in-the-wall...) So I'm starting to want out, as it's looking more and more like this isn't going to change. On the other, maybe bringing someone else into the mix may encourage him to make more of an effort.

 

But man, has that EVER worked? It doesn't feel very realistic, but I don't know what to do.

[Guest]

I have a question: If I am contemplating divorcing my husband because of lying, emotional neglect and verbal abuse, is it appropriate to tell his parents when he hasn't yet mentioned to them that we're having problems? I think they may have some insight and may encourage us to stay together, so that might be positive in the long run, but since they're his parents I am not sure how to proceed. My own folks, btw, are hopeless.

 

 

 

I am not sure how you should proceed. You know your husband better than we do.

 

Will he perceive you talking to his parents as a betrayal? Or will he see it in a positive light?

 

What do you hope to gain by talking to them? Do you want to fix things between you both or do you want his parents to know what a jerk he's being so if you two split up you don't get labelled the 'bad guy'?

 

Can you try approaching your husband and suggest BOTH of you going to talk to his parents, together?

 

I think that would be a reasonable approach.

[SoleMate]

I do think that it is appropriate to ask members of your family for help to avoid a divorce. If his parents are usually calm, helpful and wise about such matetrs, I think it makes a lot of sense. Do try to get his agreement before you go, and preferably go together so it does not look like a betrayal.

 

How many years have you been married? Any kids? Did your r/s ever work better than it does presently? And have you tried "marriage builders"?

 

The problems you describe are both distressing and common. AND many couples have addressed them successfully, by learning better communication methods, "fighting fair", and focussing on meeting each other's needs. In most cases, I would advise trying everything before pursuing the big D option.

[scrybe74]

Have you tried counseling? That may have a bigger impact than talking to his parents. I wouldn't rule out talking to his parents but that probably shouldn't be your first move.

[sunseed]

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate your responses. We are in counseling, together and separately, with a mind to continuing the relationship though I find myself doubting lately. He is a recently-diagnosed porn addict with a penchant for fighting very unfairly and a serious resistance to doing what anyone else wants him to do. (Including meeting my basic needs.) My trust is shot, and he digs in whenever I express needing anything. Some days it feels pretty hopeless. Today is one of them.

 

But in his family, divorce just doesn't happen. I know no one in his blood family who has divorced. Not. One. I think that if we went to his parents (35 years married) they might see the resistance he is putting up as being a block to our progress as a couple. But maybe not! I'm not sure what they would do. I know they love me, and even once have said, "We won't let you go!" But on the other hand he is their son and they love him dearly.

 

We're just married a year, no kids, own a house together and two cats. I've glanced at marriage builders...any successes out there with this program?

[whichwayisup]

Do you still love him? I mean really love him. I ask this because I would hate to hear 3 years from now you're full of regret and wished that you had worked on the marriage and waited things out to see if it all got better.

 

I think for now, it's noone's business what is going on. You don't need outside influences as what counts is what you feel and what your husband feels.

[LightningRod]

So why is he so upset. What is his side of the arguement? When I get angry it usually because I have a reason (I usually pick stupid things to argue over when something else is bothering me).

[sunseed]

Lightning Rod: Who can say for sure? He he has some stuff from his family life to confront (don't we all) that has definitely informed this relationship. His relationship with his older brother in particular has left him with some pretty deep scars. And besides that, what I keep hearing is that he never really screwed up or got in trouble when he was a kid, partly because he grew up privileged and partly because he was just a quiet, easygoing boy who never made mistakes. Another way to interpret this is that his parents, though dear and loving people, did not make much of an attempt to communicate with him because they didn't want to pry, so any mistakes he made went unnoticed and unpunished. Then, enter me! I do notice. And he doesn't like that one little bit.

 

WWIU: A very good question. I do love him, in fact. No question there. We've been together all told about three years, and I haven't wanted to throw this away! But when the person who says he loves you refuses to answer your most basic emotional needs (when you've communicated them fairly and consistently), and doesn't hesitate to get abusive in his language, and often...what do you do? How long do you wait? Don't they say you can't expect people to change for you?

 

I want to say that since last night he has offered sincere words of appreciation twice. And they couldn't have been more needed or at better times, and I let him know. But only after a day of his being nasty and digging in. Also, we've had these bright spots before, followed by more rejection and abuse. I guess I don't trust them at this point so I don't know what to think.

[Becoming]

Sunseed--I think we share the same in-laws and similar husbands.

 

It's good to hear you're both getting individual counseling and marriage counseling. It takes awhile, but it can work as long as you're both willing to make it so.

 

Honestly, it sounds like he's too childish to be married. He wants what HE wants when he wants it . . . and a W, too, without having to take care of her.

 

At least, that's my read based on my experience. Let me tell you my story with my H, an adored and adorable child who never had to suffer the consequences of his behavior (which was usually good). And then came me--cast in the bitchy mother role (which I never auditioned for) that he could then finally rebel from as the adolescent he was emotionally.

 

I should have left him temporariliy to get him to wake up and decide whether or not he really wanted to be married to me early on in the marriage. But I didn't until he engaged in an email affair. At that time, I threw him out, changed the locks, and called his parents and told them where he was and why. I figured they created him; they could deal with him. They're good folks, like your in-laws--divorce not an option in their world. And they finally disciplined their 30 some-year-old son. But that was years into the marriage with grandchildren they wanted to see.

 

He came back into the marriage on my terms, and it's been a struggle living with someone who basically never had to grow up. Reading Living with a Passive-Aggressive Man was the best book I've ever read to deal with my H. It teaches us how to hold these folks responsible for their actions when they balk, which is because they feel powerless (that may sound like a surprise--it was to me).

 

Marriage counseling and individual therapy for a year now is giving us the marriage we had always hoped for but didn't know how to have--that and working through marriage builders site together. But it takes time. Little changes over a long period of time. Can you be that patient?

 

No one can really tell you what to do, but this is what's worked for us. Only wish we'd done it one year into the marriage instead of years and years later.

 

I'm afraid your H may need a serious wake-up call, and separation may have to be it. Then when the parents ask why you can tell all? At this age, he may be too young emotionally to understand what you're doing and why and just resent you. That's your call--with your therapist?

 

All the best.

[sunseed]

Wow, Becoming. Thank you so much. What a relief to know that this is not isolated. I never thought I was crazy, but with all the rages and manipulations, I've definitely felt crazy. My friends are growing concerned for me at last, as I finally am telling them what's really been going on. Generally, my H has managed to get people to be protective of him somehow, including me and even my friends (save one, who is way too smart for that)--it's the sweet, innocent charm he exudes. He even fooled a therapist once! We never went back to her after that.

 

I did leave for seven nights to stay with that friend the first full week of this month. I let him know he had the power to influence this situation and it was up to him to make change. I left because I discovered that he had been using porn habitually and lying about right to my face. I discovered that day, an hour after what I thought was a decent talk wherein I gently expressed through tears my struggle in trusting him, he looked online for a new form of porn. I split, zip-zap. Pack a bag, call a friend, out the door.

 

I wonder if talking to his parents would have been good to do right then, but I didn't want to just charge ahead like that without informing him, besides, they were out of town. He is aware at this point that I want to talk to them, and together. We'll be discussing it further and if he doesn't consent soon, I will go ahead with it alone.

 

There has been some change. A little I guess. He's signed up for a program at our local university for sex addict treatment, and reached out to a friend of his to tell him about the addiction. It turns out the friend was exactly the same, and could relate to the tune of 8 months clean of porn, and was supportive of our relationship, in his word, "first." Which was cool. I was impressed that my H's intuition led him to the one person who would have the most support to offer.

 

As for the rest, yeesh. His entitlement is dreadful, and the resentment is ridiculous. A major blowup 10 days ago landed him in a hotel for the night. (Almost me--he offered to leave as I was at the door and I took him up on it.)

 

At this point I know what I need first for this relationship to succeed besides radical honesty: Appreciation. Lots of it. Daily. He has made some efforts as I've said, but I am disturbed by the resentment and the day of fighting that had to come first.

 

I too am cast in bitchy mother role, and it doesn't surprise me that powerlessness plays such a role in his self-concept. It's a shame, really. I think his own mother might be interested in that. I mean this respectfully.

 

I like your description of your H rebelling as the adolescent he is inside. Sounds like my guy's reactions. He knows this, at least intellectually. We've talked about it. Did you find that if your H could conceptualize something however distantly, that it made any difference down the road?

[Becoming]

Oh, honey, you are a prime candidate for the book I mentioned. Order it online now! These guys are charming, liars who don't even seem to know they're lying because they don't know themselves. They're irresponsible, well-meaning little boys. I've been married to one for 25 years now, and I'm no dummy. My H is a great guy who never grew up because he didn't have to--I fell into the mother role too easily because of my own issues. And we were off . . . !

 

Good for you for standing up to him! I didn't have the wherewithal to even know what was happening to me because my H was that good at spinning.

 

It's good to hear he's going to an SA group of some kind and getting help. My sister ended up divorcing her porn-addicted H because he refused to get help, and it was killing her self-esteem. It's really sad.

 

My H finally figured out he wanted more for himself because he finally understood what was at stake--his children, his future, his family, his own life and self. Honestly, he never really developed his own self apart from his family and then me. Until now. And only because he had no choice.

 

It's a hard road, but one that's been worth it in my case. Courage to you.

[bunset]

sunseed,

 

I am not the best to give you advice right now, but I will shar with you some of my viewpoint.

I've been married for almost 16 years to a man with similar issues as your H.

Plus I have issues of my own.

We have been through at least 3 cycles of couples therapy in the last 10 years. He would fall away from his individual counseling as soon as he felt he could 'get away'. I would go for IC infrequently and started back regularly about 3 years ago, when I was finally diagnosed and treated for ADHD, and NOT depression.

I've come realize that I have tolerated an abusive relationship and also reciprocated at times out of the disrespect we built.

My pre-teen son also deals withADHD and some behavioral issues.. most likely stemming from the disrespectful atmosphere at home.

I'm now strong enough to know that I cannot live like this any longer and my H needs to find what makes him happy, since it clearly isn't me.

I'm in the planning stages of a divorce and have encouraged my H to attend counselling, but he believes we need to do it together.. still. Never that he needs it for himself. I'm still broken and need fixing, in his view.

If you can, do the counseling, and follow the marriagebuilders program. But if you feel like you're broken and need fixing.... let it be for yourself, and not him.

[sunseed]

Bunset: Your story sounds painful, and I'm sorry you've had to go through this. I feel for you and recognize some points in your post. I only hope your husband can sort out his role in your marriage and take responsibility for it, before you make your final exit, well, final. Thank you for contributing your tale as support. Becoming: Thank you so very sincerely for your support and kindness. You asked me if I could be patient enough to wait for small changes over time and to be honest I don't know. An exit strategy is always an option, one my H is amply aware of. In fact Bunset, I told him of your story and we agreed that we don't want to be there down the road. In other words (I don't know if he understood this or not), change begins now, or I'm outta here.

 

I've been coping with the situation day by day. As soon as he gets entitled or rebellious lately, I've reminded him that we are not in some stable relationship where he has the right to make demands of me, or to refuse to answer my needs on the grounds that he doesn't wanna, or be a jerk. That is, if he wants me to stick around. He can, after all, do whatever he wants, but if what he wants is me, some changes have to start happening. I've told him I'm "paying attention" to his truth-twisting and have taken to reflecting most instances of his doing so, however forcefully or playfully. (We aren't always fighting, thank god, and in fact are getting along nicely today.) I don't ask him to change his story to the real one when I've caught the glaring inaccuracy, I just let him know I've seen it, I describe the true reality, and leave it there. As ever I have, I stand firm on topic when we are in conflict, no matter how hard he tries to change one subject into six different ones. Sometimes I falter and let us drift a little off topic, but in general I do a decent job. I'm averaging 65/35 I think. The verbal abuse is a little harder for me to take in stride. I have a hard time walking away from it. I guess because it's so offensive I don't think anyone should be allowed to be nasty without pretty quick consequences. But maybe I'm missing the point.

 

The manipulations continue, sadly. He's recently used a point that my therapist made to support himself, and it's sticking out in my head right now. She said: "Well, if he doesn't want to give you what you need, he's not going to. And if it continues, you will have a decision to make." He tried (hollering) to convince me that she said that to get me to dial back my feelings when he won't give me what I want. But she never said anything about my feelings, or his for that matter. He was yelling so much I had to say goodbye and hang up the phone. Once we had a few hours apart, I said that if you don't wanna do something, you don't have to. But I don't have to stay.

 

Overall I've been asking him, very plainly, "Why would I stay in a marriage where I can't see that I'm appreciated, but where I can see that I'm not treated well? What incentive do I have?" He never argues with that logic, though how much actual difference it will make I have no idea.

 

He is in a treatment program for his porn addiciton, which I'm guessing will address at least part of his PA problem. I've proposed that he's PA, and he doesn't argue, but says he's not ready to deal with that "yet," and looks persecuted. Well, fine. In the mean time, I have work to do. Big work.

 

I've had an anxiety problem for almost five years, and it's messed with my work life a couple of times. I've also got verbal and sexual abuse to deal with, and some abandonment issues. (Father figures...can't shoot 'em.) My therapy continues, and as I've been saying about my relationship for a month now, "we'll see."

 

But you know what? I am growing increasingly inclined to talk to his parents before summer vacation starts in early August. I'm girding my loins for that conversation.

[LightningRod]

Sunseed, I am not a expert on the topic, but his irrational resentment might be withdrawl from his addiction. Just like people get bitchy when they stop smoking. However like I said I am not an expert on the topic.

 

Try giving lots of physical affection. Such as hugs, kiss on the cheek, back rub, holding hands, cuddling together on the couch, or foot massage. I find, for me anyway, that can it break me from the fowlest of moods. Nothing says I love you more then attention.

[bunset]

The verbal abuse is a little harder for me to take in stride. I have a hard time walking away from it. I guess because it's so offensive I don't think anyone should be allowed to be nasty without pretty quick consequences. But maybe I'm missing the point.

I'm afraid that your reactions(read:consequences) may be his 'reward' for his behavior. So, no you may not be taking the behavior in stride, but you can freeze it out and try a re-direct.

 

The manipulations continue, sadly. He's recently used a point that my therapist made to support himself, and it's sticking out in my head right now. She said: "Well, if he doesn't want to give you what you need, he's not going to. And if it continues, you will have a decision to make." He tried (hollering) to convince me that she said that to get me to dial back my feelings when he won't give me what I want. But she never said anything about my feelings, or his for that matter. He was yelling so much I had to say goodbye and hang up the phone. Once we had a few hours apart, I said that if you don't wanna do something, you don't have to. But I don't have to stay.

I highly recommend the book "Why Does He Do That" about angry and controlling men. It may help with the coping, it has for me.

It gives me insight on some of the same tactics he has used in the past, plus allows me to stop my similar counter attacks.

 

Personal example today- He says "let me take you out to eat" I said "great, I was counting on it" .... some ongoing, pressing tasks get completed, we talk a bout a destination, and he procedes to suit-up/prepare to ride his motorcycle, even starts it up. Pulls out of the garage and sits at the end of the driveway...

while I'm just standing in the garage looking at him (I'm nowhere near ready). I also have my own motorcycle ... so it seems to me he's expecting me to also suit up and ride, most likely my own... but hey, what do I know about his thoughts? we're not all psychic.

Fact is, I was actually a bit ill from the heat and I would've preferred riding in the car. So I hesitate a beat and then try to ask over the engine noise and 15 feet of distance, if I'm supposed to get on his bike or ride my own. He responds with - "whatever you want." Well, I didn't want either, so I told him that it would be nicer if he invited me to either situation, or asked me what I'd like to do, rather than - "whatever". He gave me the shug and 'whatever' look, (placing the burden of hobson's choice on me) and then told me I should just tell him I want to go in the car, if that's what I want... He had already chosen to ride a bike. so I just walked back into the house as he angrily hauled his bike back into the garage. I sat down and started doing my own thing on the computer and when he asked "are you going out with me or not?" I responded with "I'd really prefer not to have an argument about it, and I don't feel that either of us would be good company". I followed up with "But it would have been nice if I was invited, rather than expected to know or told what you'd like".

He stewed about it, huffed a bit and finally asked "Would you like to come to dinner with me?" I said "I'd like that, but I really don't feel well enough to drive my own bike, and it is still hot outside."

Then I got "would you prefer to go in the car?" and I did say "yes, thank you, that would be more comfortable".

I was able to analyze the behaviors and counter with my own bit of strength-with-options.

Anyway, we went out and even chatted a bit and came home without additional argument.

So, chalk up one little point for effort on both parties.