Situation ...

[Blazelet]

Hello everyone. I appreciate being able to post here and talk with you all.

I am going through a tough spot right now. I am in the process of a divorce that I am finding very difficult to cope with, Monday is the day it is filed.

 

My wife and I were married a little over three years ago. It was never a perfect marriage, and we both betrayed one another's trust very early on - I did it first, then she did it in response, and so it continued. By betraying one another's trust, we did not cheat - it was more about putting our emotions into other things. About a year ago we hit what, to me, was a transitional period. We had been in counseling for a while, and I felt we were making headway. My issues had been resolved (and are to this day) and hers seemed to be, as well. Throughout the latter part of 2005 I fell more in love with her than I had ever been, and I thought she felt the same way. We began discussing starting a family around Christmas time, and decided to try in February. I can't begin to stress what a big thing that was for me, to finally want a family. The idea of having children and being a parent with my wife made me feel complete.

 

We believe she had actually gotten pregnant at one point, and had a miscarriage ... it was our intention to keep trying.

 

I would like to set the stage at this point. She was working 8-5, I was 3-11p ... so we didn't see each other often. We spent a lot of time on our own, learning to do things our own way. I would come home at night and, although I loved her very much, I wouldn't strive to spend all the time with her I would have liked. We had weekends together. Saturdays were dedicated "Date Nights" and Sundays were dedicated to spending time togehter, with my family. But the ammount of time we had with one another was still extraordinarily limited.

 

It was a Sunday, she wasn't at church. So I came home and she said she hadn't felt well, and had to go to school that afternoon to work on a paper instead of spending the day playing tennis, as we had planned. I was ok with this, and told her to go on. She came home 7 or 8 hours later and, after being incredibly sweet, making me dinner, and telling me she loved me (as I told her), she went to get a bath. Three hours later she was still in the bath, so I began to get suspicious. I opened my laptop, checked her work email, and saw she was emailing back and forth with a co-worker. The nature of the emails was such as I considered them entirely inappropriate, while she still claims they were jokes. She had spent the evening with this friend, at the school lobrary and at dinner. I was deeply hurt by this, probably more largely because of the history of problems we had than the event itself, and I emailed them both a "Got ya" email and then I left the house. We spoke on the phone that night, and I told her that if she would be willing to leave her job and leave this guy, I would work with her. She was not willing to do that.

 

Within a couple days I had found a lawyer and filed for divorce, she had given me no out, she wasn't going to leave her job or the dude. I went and spoke to our counselor and he agreed, a relationship never works where a 3rd party stays in the picture - that if we were to work things out she would have to humble herself sufficiently and put me as a priority (as I would have to do for her).

 

Divorce is never what I wanted, it is what seemed the only possible solution as a result of her response. And I was so deeply hurt, the pain coupled with her disregard for me or our marriage made it feel like the right things to do. So we left it at that. Communcation kept up, but it was usually angry and scattered. I relied a lot of my friends and family at this time, because when I am hurt - I need to talk about it. There are six or seven people that I relied on, and talked to frequently about what was going on. I needed them, I needed support, because my usual pillar of support, my wife, was stabbing me every time we spoke.

 

Back to the family thing, I was ready to settle down with this girl, have 4 or 5 kids, and spend the rest of my life loving them. This had become my image of the future and it was so exciting.

 

After I filed the divorce, I asked her to move out of the house because it was too painful to live there with her, knowing each morning she was leaving me to go to work and spend the day with the dude. She did move out, and I spent that week reeling from the truthfulness of what had happened ... and at the end of the week I left for Oklahoma, to a friend's wedding. I came home after that weekend to find she had spent the weekend in the house, not collecting her things like I had asked, but hanging out and talking to the dude on the phone. I started gathering her things together, boxing them for her. How painful that was, I so wish she had done it herself to save me the torture.

 

As I packed up her things from the night stand I found a bag behind it. Perhaps seven months ago, the two of us had been shopping at Target. We were looking for DVDs to watch, and I spotted a book in the kids section called "Goodnight My Angel" - it was a book written to Billy Joel's lyrics, of the same name. We stood there in the store and read it together, and she said "Some day you're going to be reading this book to our kids, you'll be such an excellent father." Well behind her night stand was this book, she had gone and bought it to give to me when she found out she was pregnant. I stood there and cried because of the sincerity and sweetness of this gesture ... a little later I called her, because I was certain that someone who had done this, just a few months prior, had to still feel love for me. But her response was "I don't need it, you can keep it or throw it away."

 

The history of our relationship since that day has been along these lines. Time after time again, I am given clue or example of how she might feel, that there might still be a chance for reconciliation. Sometimes it's in the form of a direct communication from her, and sometimes it's something I extrapolate because I want it to be true. I use these feelings and begin to believe there might be chance for reconciliation, and so I pursue it. And every time she guts me again. I know that she has moved on, that she has an interest in this guy ... but ultimately, he won't make her happy, because he played the weaknesses in my marriage to tempt my wife, and she bought it. I mean, he called her the day after I found out about them because he felt he should come forward and tell her that he had feelings for her. Why do that unless you're trying to take advantage of the situation?

 

So I need support in two areas. First - how do I begin to forgive them both? Right now my two modes of thinking are to either be angry at them, or blame myself. How do I get past all that, and simply forgive, accept, and move on? I have been trying to approach this as if my best friend had died - go through the five stages of grief .. but it seems to be cycling through anger (it's their fault), bargaining (it's my fault, I'll change), and depression (I don't care). Can anyone offer real world solutions on how to begin this healing process? I feel no better off today than I did when this started 2 months ago.

 

And the other area I need support in is, was it the right decision to move toward divorce? Divorce is the last thing I want, as I am still deeply in love with her. We are LDS, marriage is so important to our faith, not withstanding the love I do have for her. I feel like I have been put in a similar situation as Jonah and Paul. Jonah was given a simple option - handle your situation righteously, or be lunch. Paul was given a similar option - handle your situation righteously, or sit on the streets of Damascus for the rest of your life with a cup in one hand and a red tipped cane in the other. So in handling this situation righteously, what is the best thing I can do?

 

"Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or to take arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing, end them."

 

I would like to close by saying I love my wife very much...

 

Ryan

[Gunny376]

I've been through this three times ~ one engagement, one marriage ~divorce, one shack up deal.

 

Kid yourself not. This "friends" crap is just that ~ crap. Some would say that you overeacted, not really. Perhpas a little too quickly ~ trouble is the fat's in the fire now. You've humiliated her, which leads to anger which leads to resentment which leads to lost of respect. For now anyway.

 

There might be a chance of reconcilation once the infatuation with the OM wears off. And, that's pretty much what it is ~ infatuation ~ it does't last.

 

What's he got that you haven't got? The time and opportunity to spend time with her, make her laugh, be fun. You, in the course of taking care of day to day business cease being fun to her. Thus you lost her interest. Enter stage left ~ OM. You left your flanks wide open. Idle mind are the Devil's playground.

 

What to do about it?

 

I'd call and cancel the divorce ~ and then do nothing ~ cease contact ~ be firm, work on the anger, (the reason you should cancel the divorce, you're PO and you should make decisions when you're PO'd) Then leave her the Hell alone. No contact. No nothing. Let things run there course ~ the infatuation ~ with the OM ~ he doesn't have any home field advantage. He's got nothing, no skill set, no experience no nothing.

 

If it comes up ~ as to what the deal is ~ just tell her ~ I'm PO'd and hurt, and I don't want to make such a life alternating decision under those circumstances.

 

Don't try romancing her, any of that. No begging, no pleading, no crying, no whinning, no being weak minded, no cards. no flowers, no candy, no jewelry.

 

Besides your sense of Honor and Pride ~ why are you in such a hurry to divorce the love of your life? If you want her Dude, your going to have to "man-up" and take the hard path. You're being re-active, when you should have been pro-active. The time to take care of the engine in your car isn't when your sitting beside the road ~ its every 3000 miles or so.

[Billy Bob]

I'd call and cancel the divorce ~ and then do nothing ~ cease contact ~ be firm, work on the anger, (the reason you should cancel the divorce, you're PO and you should make decisions when you're PO'd) Then leave her the Hell alone. No contact. No nothing. Let things run there course ~ the infatuation ~ with the OM ~ he doesn't have any home field advantage. He's got nothing, no skill set, no experience no nothing.

 

Couldn't have said it better Gunny. That prescribed course of action doesn't guarantee she'll come back to you, but its probably the best chance you got.

 

I went and spoke to our counselor and he agreed, a relationship never works where a 3rd party stays in the picture - that if we were to work things out she would have to humble herself sufficiently and put me as a priority (as I would have to do for her).

 

On a side note be very careful with marriage counselors, if you went to 10 different counselors they would give you 11 different answers - catch my drift? During the course of about 10 counseling sessions with my wife and I, I basically learned that my marriage counselor was gay and supported "open relationships", needless to say I no longer go to counseling with that bozo. Not that I disagree with what your counselor told you.

 

I'm pretty much a plan B, hard line kind of guy myself, but I also think you jumped the gun a little quick filing for divorce and kicking her out was probably a bad move as well.

 

Your going to have to realize that getting her back (if it works) is going to take some time. Gunny, you should give him that big list of rules..

[Gunny376]

"Tha List" I got from LJ aka Lady Jane:

 

Michele Weiner-Davis, re: DivorceBusting

 

 

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or

implore!

 

2. No frequent phone calls

 

3. Do not point out good points in marriage

 

4. Do not follow her around the house

 

5. Do not encourage talk about the future

 

6. Do not ask for help from family members

 

7. Do not ask for reassurances

 

8. Do not buy gifts

 

9. Do not schedule dates together

 

10. Do not spy on spouse

 

11. Do not say "I Love You"

 

12. Act as if you are moving on with your life

 

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive

 

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get

busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends,

etc.

 

15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start

the conversation) be scarce or short on words

 

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his

whereabouts, ASK NOTHING

 

17. You need to make your partner think that you have

had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you

are going to move on with your life, with or without

your spouse

 

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull

back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more

important, realize what he will be missing

 

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show

your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her

someone he would want to be around.

 

20. All questions about marriage should be put on

hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which

may be a while)

 

21. Never lose your cool

 

22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic

 

23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes

their feelings stronger)

 

24. Be patient

 

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really

saying to you

 

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you

want to speak out

 

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh &

focus on all the other parts of your life that are not

in turmoil)

 

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly

 

29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest

CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any

words you can say or write

 

30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you

are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy

 

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with

your spouse

 

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than

50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in

absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared

 

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad

you feel

 

34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes

 

Print this out and read several times daily. The more of the oppossite of these things that you do ~ the wrorse that your going to make it. Just walk away from it and leave it alone, and keep your mouth shut! The more you talk ~ the more fuel your adding to the fire. If and when you do talk ~ keep it short and on neutral topics.

 

I don't care if your crying your baby blues out each night ~ and sleeping like a new born baby (waking up every two hours) ~ don't let her know it.

 

You've got to give her time to miss you, and to miss your marriage. The human mind is an amazing thing ~ over time ~ you've forget or at least tend to think less about the bad times even during the worse of times during your life ~ but it happens over times. Doing anything but the above keeps dredging up those memories. She's thinking there's another life out there ~ and perhaps its something that she's got to explore on her own ~ to see what's out there. I promise you, its a meat market out there, and you've got to shovel tons of coal before you find a diamond.

 

You? You need to get busy and stay busy ~ if you're not coming home and dropping dead from PHYSICAL exhaustion ~ then you need to get busy ~ getting busy. Don't start drinking, using illegal drugs. If your having trouble sleeping at night ~ go to WalMart (whereever) and get some melatonin 5mg. The bottle says take one tablet, I take 2-3. (Height ~ Bodymass) Its over the counter, non-presection and you will find it in the vitamins section. It won't "knock" you out ~ but it will make you drozy, sleepy, watery-eyes, yawning. When you do get to bed it will quite your thoughts, and you will wake up rested.

[Blazelet]

Hey! Thank you so much for your replies. I printed them off as you suggested and read them on my dinner break.

 

The nice thing about your list, Gunny, is that it serves a secondary purpose. It takes the energy that an individual would otherwise spend on sulking over their spouse and turns it into a positive outcome - self improvement. At the same time, it seperates an individual from their spouse, making it easier to seperate emotionally in the event a divorce does happen.

 

So if the divorce doesn't happen, you've improved yourself and have a new base for the marriage. If it does happen, at least you've spent time making yourself better and emotionally less attached.

 

I joined a gym today and found a personal trainer, mailed my last bits of application material for grad school, and found out about a new position I am going to be filling at church that will be very people oriented. So I am going to do the keeping busy part no problem.

 

As far as not letting her know how I feel? That's always been the hard part for me ... I wear my heart on my sleeve. But I know over time how I feel will change, especially as I get out there and do more, meet new people, and remember that there's happiness in other things. But you're right in the short term it's important to not let her know, because it doesn't help either of us.

 

Thanks, I appreciate all the responses and the new perspectives.

 

Ryan

[Blazelet]

Hey Gunny,

 

Also wanted to say I'm sorry about the three times you've been through this ... it's not very pleasant, but I would imagine you've become something of an authority. What would you say is the #1 rule you've learned?

[Blazelet]

And one more question ...

 

How long do you wait around when your spouse is having a relationship with someone else?

[Gunny376]

Hey Gunny,

 

Also wanted to say I'm sorry about the three times you've been through this ... it's not very pleasant, but I would imagine you've become something of an authority. What would you say is the #1 rule you've learned?

 

 

Jezzzz! That would be a hard one to answer ~ because there are no absolutes ~ its all fluid, and its all such a paradox ~ its all the same for each of us that have gone through it ~ but yet so uniquely personal and different for each individual.

 

And, the answer to that question would have been different a month ago ~ than it would be today ~ but since having joined this site ~ I've learned some things that when joined in conjunction with previously acquired knowledge.

 

I would say it would be this ~ quit listening to the media, the so called experts, the therapist, the couselors so much and just listen to your heart. Upon your heart is written and it was written there the day thatg you were conceived to just do the right thing. You know what the right thing is, and you know what the right thing isn't. You don''t need toi go to school, church, read about it in a book, nor have it preached to you every week. You know what it is.

 

And, also writen upon your heart was who and what you are as a person ~ quit trying to be something other than what and who you are, to satisfy, please or pacify or obtain the approval of someone else ~ just be who and what you are. If your a man, "man up" and be a man and own up to your mistakes, your responsibilities, your obligations, your oaths to the absolute best that you can.

 

Don't whine, don't cry, don't be a wuss. Know your limitations and set your bounderies. Set down and define and write your own personal code, clearly stating who and what you're about ~ and then take it a step further ~ and write out a mission statement for your life ~ in a short brief sentance WTF are you here for other than just taking up space on the planet. Re-write it, add to it, or make deletions as you grow and learn, and as the circumstances of your life changes, but always keep them honor based, bound by your own personal sense of honor.

 

All that crap that you hear coming out of Hollyweird and New York is just bulls***. Women don't a man that is nurturing, caring, giving, sharing, sensistive side whose in touch with his inner child and his "femininity" They want a man that is loving, caring, nurting, giving sharing, sensetive to them and those that close to them ` but who going to kick the crap out anyone else that crossses his path. They want a man who is a man, walks like a man, talks like a man, acts like a man, who "man's up" to his obligations, responsibilities, and obligations. They want a man who can be romantic ~ but creative and imaginative ~ in doing so. Women want a man they can respect, who will be a protector, a part of the solution and not part of the problem, part of the answer and not part of the question. Who will past the little test they lay before you from time to time to see if your the geniune article ~ up to and including to see if they

re going to stand up to them and their bulls***. They want a man who's a challenge, and challenges them mentally, emotionally, intellectually, pyschologicially ~ who's somewhat of a mystery.

Who's somehow just a little out of reach ~ AND who's not apolgetic for being man that likes women and wants to have sex with women.

 

The worse thing that you can do is try and solve all of a woman's problems ~ they're not stupid you know! And, they're not the little weak fragile things some of them would have you believe ~ they come from stronger and sturdy stock than that. Next to that the worse thing you can do is try and become a woman's best friend or vice versa. You're not a woman ~ and they're not men. A real man could give a damn about intenior decorating ~ and if he does any of it at all ~ its to get laid.

 

Another modern day mis-conception is letting a woman know all that there is about you. You've got to give them something to be curious and to remian curious about.

 

Finally, there isn't any such thing as a shortage of women nor men ~ the freaking planet is covered up with them. About 6 billion last time I heard.

Love? Love is the self imposed dilussion that one woman only has something that all the other 3 billion women don't have.

 

When you've studied the art of seduction, attraction ~ what works and doesn't work ~ you could care less if some woman walks out on you ~ because in the end all it means is that you've got to go find yourself some new girl friends? Damn the bad luck.

 

Marriage benefits women ~ hardly ever women. The reason men get married is becuase they don't have the necessary skill set, mind set to be successful in meeting, attracting, and seducing women. Its a learned skill just like anything, and it has a learning curve to it ~ at first you'll fail and you'll fail miserably ~ and often. But, then you'll get better at it, and then you'll go from being a "sarger" (think shotgun blast") to a sniper. One shot ~ one kill.

[Gunny376]

And one more question ...

 

How long do you wait around when your spouse is having a relationship with someone else?

 

 

Until your heart tells you its time to move on. I think you've answered your own question ~ haven't you?

 

Where did you go wrong? Same place I did, and a lot of men.

 

Today, when a young couple wants to get married the young man goes to the girls father and ask for her hand in marriage, out of respect. That's NOT what that's all about.

 

Up until about fifty years ago, most men didn't go to college, and they didn't have trade school, and so they either worked on the farm ~ or they had to go and learn a trade by which to make a living ~ in other words they became apprenticies. They would have to work at this trade for about two to three years before they learned it ~ another ten before they mastered it.

 

It was only then, and having proven to the community at large that he was capable of supporting a wife and children, wasn't a deadbeat, wasn't going to drink up, gamble away the rent and grocery money ~ that a man could go out and look for a wife ~ and then he could ask the father for her hand in marriage. He had to prove not only the above ~ but that he could put a roof over their heads, etc and would because if he couldn't or didn't then she would be moving back home and brining even more mouths to feed.

 

What I told my son to do, was to do the above, establish himself, build a reputation for dependability, reliability, etc. and then buy him some land, build his house the way that he wanted it, buy all of his Boy-toys, and then he wouldn't have any problem finding a woman to marry.

 

But the stuggle would be over. The house would be built, and furnished, he would be established in his trade, he would have moved up to where he was making a decent living.

 

This as oppossed to the current model, of getting married and not having anything, trying to go to school, hold down jobs, have babies. A recipe for diaster~

[Blazelet]

I disagree with your concept of what marriage is about (ie - for men who can't seduce). For me marriage was about being happy with one person, and being ok with that. There isn't a flaw there.

 

However you're right about the Hollywood concept of men being wrong. But Hollywood is wrong in most ways, they rely on stereotypes because that's easier. Women love the sweet romantic nice guy in movies, because they only have to deal with him for two hours.

 

Maybe that's my problem ...

 

You think I can pay someone to teach me to grunt and watch football?

 

Yeah I have made my decision about the divorce, it will go on Monday, because I've drawn that line and I need to stand by it. She knows what to do to get me to back down.

 

One good thing I have learned in the last two months is that I don't need her. I want her, I miss her, but I don't need her. And life will go on without her.

 

And as far as being someone who "man's up" - you're right. The women in my life that I am more confident and sure of myself around, willing to lead the way with, tend to be more friendly and open. That's another thing I'll focus on.

 

I appreciate the sincerity.

 

Ryan

[Gunny376]

I disagree with your concept of what marriage is about (ie - for men who can't seduce). This isn't my concept of what marriage is about ~ its what a lot of men's concept of marriage is about.

 

 

For me marriage was about being happy with one person, and being ok with that. This is MY concept of marriage

 

However you're right about the Hollywood concept of men being wrong. But Hollywood is wrong in most ways, they rely on stereotypes because that's easier. Women love the sweet romantic nice guy in movies, because they only have to deal with him for two hours. Hammer just hit the nail square on the head! Reality what a concept!

 

Maybe that's my problem ...

 

You think I can pay someone to teach me to grunt and watch football? Nor is my concept of being a real man ~ its just a stereotypical one.

 

 

Yeah I have made my decision about the divorce, it will go on Monday, because I've drawn that line and I need to stand by it. She knows what to do to get me to back down. This is my concept of what being a real man is!

 

One good thing I have learned in the last two months is that I don't need her. I want her, I miss her, but I don't need her. And life will go on without her. And again this is what MY concept of being a real man is!

 

And as far as being someone who "man's up" - you're right. The women in my life that I am more confident and sure of myself around, willing to lead the way with, tend to be more friendly and open. That's another thing I'll focus on. And again this is what my concept of being a real man is!

 

I appreciate the sincerity.

 

Ryan

 

 

Part of my definition of being a man:

Doing that which is necessary, even when un-pleasant, and distasteful, while maintaining one's self diginity , honor, and integrity, and head about themselves even under the most adverse of conditions while yielding when possible to the humanity and suffering of others in the most compassionate

manner permissable.

[Blazelet]

So does this mean I can keep my Spongebob shirt?

[Gunny376]

So does this mean I can keep my Spongebob shirt?

 

 

Hey! The only fetish I'm into are women! But, if that's your thing Dude ~ have at it! Whatever flips your trigger and floats your boat ~ that's between you and whoever you're with ~ strictly none of my business. Just be careful that it doesn't clash with your VW Beetle convertable.

 

Carry on there "Herbie"