False hope with ex-fiance? Need thoughts (especially male perspectives)!

[Devrapunzel]

Hi all,

 

O.k. I'm new to this forum and really hoping that I can get some objective opinions (especially any male perspectives). I apologize if this is too long - I'll summarize the best I can.

 

My ex-fiance and I just broke up two weeks ago and I moved out of the house we own together. We were together two years. The bottom-line issue was whether or not to have children. I really want kids and have made this clear since we first starting dating. He gave me every indication that he was on board even "trying" to make that happen. I became pregnant last year and he reacted very poorly, but eventually came around. Unfortunately I miscarried.

 

He proposed to me in October 2005 and included "wanting to have a family with me" and so forth in his proposal. We bought a house together in December 2005. Since then, he has been back and forth on the child issue....literally saying one thing one week and the complete opposite the next week. A month ago, on my birthday, he told me how much he wanted kids with me and that he was really ready for it. Two weeks later, he said the exact opposite again, telling me he was scared he was too old (he just turned 40 - I just turned 38), etc. I couldn't handle the constant rollercoaster and finally moved out. I didn't want to break things up, just wanted to give both of us space. He said that we're broken up then.

 

So here we are now: He needs to refinance the house in his name only to get my name off the mortgage. He doesn't want to do this right away (although it's only hurting him financially by waiting) and has asked me to "wait a few weeks". He says "once he refinances, then it's over in his mind" and "that's too final". He said he needs time to think and that he's confused. He said he has no plans to see other people. He said I should go ahead and see other people if I want, but that it probably isn't a good idea if I still have feelings for him. (I wasn't planning to anyway so soon). Meanwhile, I had to stop at the house to pick up some mail a few days ago and I noticed our photo is still up. Furthermore, he seemed miserable.

 

It has been four days since we have talked and I'm trying the no contact plan - just giving him space and time to think.

 

So tell me wise people out there: how do you interpret this? Is he seriously contemplating things (having children, etc.) Or am I hanging on to false hope here? Why is he waiting on the mortage? Why is our photo still up? etc. What is really going on?

 

I'm going crazy here and would rather be "home". However, I don't want to even think about that option if it is not an option in the first place. It seems odd to me to be asking for opinions at my age (shouldn't I have it all figured out? Ha!), but I'll swallow my pride and put it out there anyway.

 

Any help would be soooo appreciated. Thanks!

 

Peace,

Dev

[KittenMoon]

I think the question is WHY he doesn't want to have kids. Did he have a tough childhood family wise? Does he think he'll be a bad father? Does he have a short temper?

 

Has he been around any children (nieces, nephews, friends' kids, etc)? How does he act around them? Could he handle a few preactice rounds- weekends taking care of a niece/nephew etc?

 

What about pre-marital counseling to discuss this issue? It seems rough to give up at this point when he obviously still have some ambivalence on the issue.

[Guest]

Yes, he is seriously considereing all aspects....I have been there myself, similar age, and never really wanted kids, yet when with the right person, and it seems important to them that they want one, then it is a HUGE rollercoaster personally.

 

The question is not all about why he does not want kids, it could be anything down to not wanting the responsibility of fathering / financing them, because he is scared, more than feeling stable enough, he may not be a great kid lover, many, many issues that simply do not matter at the moment...(have you actually spoken to him about his reasons for being unsure?)..the greatest thing of importance is do you still want to be with him if he decides he cannot go through with having kids just for your happiness....it is a double edged blade, selfish on both parties behalf......it appears obvious he feels enough to put his emotions in check and question all avenues, and it appears he is struggling with the outcome of his reality....would you do the same for him, if the issue were reveresed with a different aspect?..i.e. not about having kids, but something that your really unsure about within your life, just to be able to stay with him?....that is the reason he has done what he has now....from a male perspective!

[Devrapunzel]

[sIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Kitten,[/FONT][/sIZE]

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[sIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Very good questions. Although he says he had a good childhood, I know there were significant issues between his parents (let's just say his father was not a good role model). Whereas I'm around kids all the time (elemetary school teacher), he has not been much at all. However, I took care of my 7 month old nephew recently and he was great with him around. It mostly seems like his fears center around "being too old", "not having the energy", "a lot of responsibility", "what if I'm not a good father", etc. I empathize with him, but I don't think fear is a good reason not to embark on something wonderful. He has a very tender heart and I know he'd be a good dad. Although he is short-tempered, he also knows when to apologize and will readily admit he needs to try harder to keep it in check.[/FONT][/sIZE]

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[sIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]We went to two counseling sessions and it just seemed to make him angry. He stopped going - I continue.[/FONT][/sIZE]

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[sIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]With so much invested, it seems illogical to just throw it all away. However, I want to be realistic here. I do not want to set myself up with false hope.[/FONT][/sIZE]

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[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]Thanks for your response.[/sIZE][/FONT]

[Devrapunzel]

oops. sorry about all that weird font-text babble....don't know what happened there.

[WithOrWithoutYou]

1. He does have serious reservations about having kids. It might be the age thing, or he may have other issues regarding his own childhood - who knows.

 

2. He hasn't refinanced and taken the pictures down because you are the one that dumped him (you did want a male perspective), and he is still coming to terms with the new reality that in his mind, you have foisted on him. Guys do not like to be dumped (even if there were reasons, even good ones), especially by someone who they trust, care about, and wanted to spend the rest of their lives with. It is a bit of a blow to the ego, but more importantly, despite how hurt he is feeling right now, a big part of him still wants you back.

 

3. He may be contemplating whether getting you back is worth writing "I want babies with you" in blood or not, since (refer to 1), that isn't something he wants without reservation. He may not want to make an ironclad plan about that. Guys often like to take a whatever happens, happens approach to that sort of thing. That said, it really is something you need to think about together. I guess it comes down to just how important to you that is, and how much you love him. At 38, are you going to go rapidly search for some other guy to do that with if this guy does not want to have kids? If you can do that, how much do you really love THIS man? Just a thought.

 

4. He loves you - a lot. This is why he looks miserable. It is because he is. When a man truly loves a woman, that love becomes a part of not only what he feels, but who he is. That has just been taken from him, and he is searching for either. A) a way to get it back, or B) a way to live without it. If you do not provide him with A, there will come a time when he will seek B, and then reconcilliation may not be possible (if that is even what you want).

 

I was going to sugar-coat it, but this really is much of what a guy is thinking after getting dumped by someone he loves, and I hope it helps you to understand some of his behavior. Of course, every guy is different, and this is more the basic stuff. Depending on the particulars of your relationship, there are probably many other things he is thinking.

 

The bottom line is you have a decision to make. Do you love this man, truly? Is he the only man (whatever his shortcomings, wishes about kids, etc.) that you could see yourself spending the rest of your life with? If yes, you better go home before it is too late. If not, you need to be honest with him about that, and you both need to try to move on.

[a4a]

 

Instead of questions about him I am curious to know a few things.

 

Did you use your moving out as an ultimatium in hopes that he will agree to have kids?

 

What did he say about kids at the start of the relationship?

 

Are you hoping he will change his mind and be ok with it?

 

Are you hoping that you can force him into this by your move out?

 

From my perspective as a person who does not want or desire children, but I am married to a person who would like them. What you pulled is not fair if your intentions are to use it to force him into your way of thinking about kids.

 

This is not about a gym membership, getting a new car, or anything else. Once you have kids you cannot get rid of them. You cannot take the back to the store or sell them.

 

My guess is that he at times agrees with you to have kids simply because he loves you, not because he actually wants them. I myself have pondered giving into my H's desires simply because I do care about him...... but in the end I would resent him, I would not be happy having kids in my life, and I truly think no matter how hard I tried I would end up taking it out on our kids if it was intentional or not.

 

If he acted differently towards you when you were pregnant do you think he would suddenly want kids if you became pregnant again....... a sudden change of heart about it?

 

It's not fair to try to manipulate him into having babies if he does not want them. If this is one thing that you cannot live without in your life..... let the man go, find one that wants kids. He is stating and showing you that he does not desire them. He is also willing to end your relationship over this issue, so realize that not having kids is as important to him as you wanting kids.

 

At times you want to do things that will please your spouse even if it is something you detest doing. But having children is not one of those things that should be done as a favor. Don't try to force this on him.... that is not fair to him or children that you would have with him.

[Devrapunzel]

WOWO, Thanks for that very eloquent message. You said things so well. First of all, I did NOT dump him. He made it clear we were broken up. Yes, I moved out, but only after months and months and months of his wavering. I kicked and screamed the whole time moving out. The day I decided to sign a lease (only month-to-month lease) he had told me that he was 99% sure he didn't want kids. Again, three weeks before this, he was telling me how much he DID want them. When he proposed to me, he stated he wanted a family, etc. He has known from week one of dating me that this was something I wanted. We were together two years. (You have to understand moving out wasn't a ploy or a trick on my part - it was a "I have to get out of here before I lose my sanity" I didn't know up from down anymore. I was literally being told complete opposite things from week to week, sometimes day to day. As much as I love him, I was feeling strung along. It was also to give him space to think as he readily admits that he is very confused.)

 

I'm not just looking for a guy to have a baby here. I love him deeply. I'm simply unwilling to budge on the child issue. If we stayed together without him having made a decision on that issue and we'd never have kids, I'm afraid I'd become resentful. I told him the first week or so into dating. I even said, "if you don't ever see yourself having kids, let's not see each other anymore because I don't want to fall for you if your goals are different than mine". His response? "I'd be a great father!"

 

Of course I hope he makes a decision to move in my direction. But I want it to be because he wants it. So is NC the best thing I can do for him right now? I would like nothing more than to move back into our home (which is why I purposely chose a month-to-month lease), but I feel like that invitation needs to come from him.

[a4a]

Of course I hope he makes a decision to move in my direction. But I want it to be because he wants it. So is NC the best thing I can do for him right now? I would like nothing more than to move back into our home (which is why I purposely chose a month-to-month lease), but I feel like that invitation needs to come from him.

 

Devra I was not trying to upset you with my post. I thought seeing it from the perspective of a person who does not want children would be helpful to you.

 

As for NC, yes it is probably the best thing for you at this point. If he is does not want children and you are not willing to budge on the issue NC is a pretty good coping tool until you are able to feel less vulnerable.

 

He may attempt to ask you back into his life but again may "string" you along stating he will think about starting a family but not really wanting to.

 

Good Luck to you.

[Devrapunzel]

a4a,

 

I know you weren't trying to upset me with your post. It hurt a little, but you didn't have the "stringing along" info. at that point. I really appreciate your input! I have tried to see things from the other point of view (his). I guess I would be seeing things more clearly if he was just honest from the beginning. Two years of back and forth is a long time. Granted, I stayed the two years. Again, I believed him when he said he wanted a family with me when he proposed (and all the other tiems he said it as well). I really don't think he is 100% against it, but very fearful of it (we have talked about these fears).

 

It's been six days of NC and I can only hope that he is really giving it all some thought. In this situation, does six days of NC seem long? I guess I thought I'd hear something from him by now especially with the shared mortgage hanging out there.

[ridingthebulls]

You're in the years where it really is not going to be worthwhile to dilly dally with a man like that. You want kids and honestly, you miscarried already a year ago so it MIGHT not be a walk in the park trying to have a successful pregnancy. At his age, he should know what he wants with conviction and most men when they dont have kids already by that age, usually are elated.

 

Do you really want to waste these years with a man who is lying to you just to string you along until you will absolutely not be able to have children? Seriously, start seeing other people!

 

I would be FURIOUS if someone lied to me in the beginning of a relationship AND over and over again just to satisfy their selfish desires to have me in the bag.

[Devrapunzel]

Riding, Thanks for your honesty. I needed to hear that. At times, I have been furious as you say, but other times, not as much because I don't think he was ever intentionally lying...I believe this man is very confused. But here's a different point: do I want to be with a man who is that confused?

 

Last night he told me via phone that:

* he thinks he's "going through a mid-life crisis". whatever.

 

*He then got mad at me when I suggested we just close the mortgage

 

*went on to blame me for not being able to "relax", suggesting I was never happy in the relationship and that once I have a kid, then "I'll just want something else". (WTF? I have treated this man so well, gave way more than I was ever given, and have put up with this bs way too long.)

 

* he even pointed out that he had "the better end" of our relationship, but was still the one who called it off (saying he broke up for my benefit earlier in the conversation and then, once angry, saying the exact opposite later in the same conversation)

 

*He still wants to wait on the mortgage, but states that if he is still indecisive after a few weeks, then we should just go ahead and refinance it because it's not fair to me to otherwise.

 

At this very moment, I am furious, but almost humorously bewildered if that makes sense. It's so ridiculous. WHAT AM I DOING? So, yes, Riding, I think you're right, I need to start seeing other people (don't want to, but think I need to).

 

Wow, thanks for letting me get that off my chest!

[a4a]

Dear Devra,

 

Yes move on....... ask him to close the mortgage now.

 

He is not going to have a sudden change of heart and stick to it.

 

He is looking at every bad possible situation that could happen if you have children.

 

Like I said I am on the opposite end of things but in the same situation.......or was. There is no way I will change my mind about having kids. I did at one time entertain it to keep my H happy. (however he knew from day one I did not want kids)

 

Now if he pressed me to do this there is no way I would continue a R with him for 2 reasons:

 

I do not want kids

I would not want to stay with him and take that oppurtunity away from him either.

 

So from that point of view he has a choice........ give up on your R or have kids, and that is not what he wants.

 

I suppose it is hard to understand another persons point of view about not or wanting kids when your desire is so strong to have or not have them.

 

Top that off with the guilt of not giving your partner what they want even though it is something you don't want and that sends a person into a state of being indecisive and wishy washy........ at least it was that way for me for a short time.

 

I don't think you would want him having children with you just to make you happy and because he feels like he is supposed to....... not because he really wants them.

 

Being similar to your fiance I can tell you that is a rough choice to make.... not to be crude but that is like being told you have to jump out of a plane without a parachute but you have a choice of type of plane to jump from. But you never wanted to jump out of any plane.

 

I am only telling you this so you can possibly see how a person who does not want children feels...... hoping that perhaps it will help you move on and understand how he may feel. He is hurting too. As strong as your desire is to have kids, his desire is just as strong not to have them. If he really did he would have by now. Possibly with you or another person.

 

Take control of your life now, move on.

[Devrapunzel]

Dear a4a,

 

Again, I appreciate your view on this. However, the difference between your view and his seems to be that if pressed, you would end a R if knowing absolutely that you do not want children. He is not truly ending this. And, admittedly, I am allowing this. He told me that he feels closing the mortgage would be too final for him and hard to reconcile thereafter. When I had difficulty comprehending why closing the mortgage would be so insurmountable, he likened it to it being insurmountable for me to reconcile if he were to sleep with other women. Although an odd analogy, I better understood. He wanted to make a "deal" with me that if we could leave the mortgage open for now, he vows to not sleep with other women (I wasn't worried about this anyway).

 

So, in short, I guess if he were more upfront like you are with your H, I'd respect that so much more and find it easier to move on. As it is now, he makes it seem like he is really trying to figure things out - telling me if he "already knew the answer, then we'd be closing on the house".

 

When he says that if he is still undecided in a few weeks, then we'll just close because it's unfair to me, I foolishly want to just wait and see what will happen. I guess I'm way too curious as to what this "magical few weeks" is all about. What could he possibly gain from waiting a few weeks? (BTW, waiting on the mortgage only benefits me financially, not him).

 

P.S. Thanks for reading/responding to these posts. Sometimes, I feel silly, not to mention vulnerable posting. But, hey, we're all only human, right? When your staring at the trees, it's hard to see the forest (or whichever way that goes). It helps to have others clear your view.

[a4a]

However, the difference between your view and his seems to be that if pressed, you would end a R if knowing absolutely that you do not want children. He is not truly ending this. .

 

No, I did toy with it when pressured by him, and when he pressured me further I went along with it until the reality of it hit home. (Look at my original post here..... my reason for coming to LS exactly what you are posting about......but we were already married.)

 

He (my H) did not see anything wrong with having kids before marriage....... I used that as my first excuse to bow out of parenthood...stating I did not think it was right to do so.

(we are in our late 30's so all grown up not teenagers social pressure about being married was not a real thing for me)

 

So on and off I would agree to it...... thinking..... well how bad can it be? I love him and this is what he wants....... so I would smile and say YES.

 

But inside it was killing me to go against what I knew was not what I wanted...........so then the "NO Way way in Hell" would surface.

 

Back and forth. Just like your fiance..........then we thought we had an "accident"

I got so so angry. (does this sound familiar?) Thankfully it was just a scare.

 

I think you are in hopes that he will suddenly say he wants kids...... and that he really means it. Or are you willing to settle for another string along from him, or for him to end up resentful, leaving you and the kid behind in the future while spouting off "I never wanted kids, you forced me into it."

 

His holding on is just another wishy washy guilt induced attempt at buying time and hoping maybe you will change your mind. You're hoping he will change his mind. Stalemate.

 

Why don't you talk to him..... point blank.

 

I will tell you this also,from time to time he brought up the subject in the recent past and at times out of sheer guilt I think maybe I should just to make him happy. But I don't/didn't tell him or string him along with false hope. I had done that in the past to just make myself feel better and hope that he would be happy with me saying ........sure someday.....maybe...... that might be nice..... ok....

 

Now in my defense from the time we started out as friends years ago he knew I did not like kids, did not want them, but I suppose he thought that if we got married and shared our lives I would for some reason change my mind.

 

I have and continue to give my H the option of a friendly divorce if this is important to him. But now he states kids or no kids he is happy with me so it is no longer important to him.

 

Now on a offish topic are you sure that you are able to carry a child to full term? If I recall you had a miscarriage. This whole issue could be for nothing if that is the case.

 

Don't your children deserve a father that wants them? I think if you force a person into having a child or the child is not truly desired by one parent it will create huge problems in the future for all involved.

 

I guess I have great empathy for your fiance as I know how he feels or at least share some of his feelings on this subject.

 

I am really trying to help you here..... I really am. Not trying to hurt you at all.

[Devrapunzel]

a4a,

 

I know you're not trying to hurt me - only help me and for that I thank you.

 

Yes, I am able to carry a child to full-term. I've had a complete medical work up and all is well. (miscarriages or chemical pregnancies are not that uncommon).

 

I have tried talking to him numerous times and in a variety of ways...last night for instance. Now he just gets angry and doesn't want to talk about it.

 

So, back to my previous question:

 

When he says that if he is still undecided in a few weeks, then we'll just close because it's unfair to me, I foolishly want to just wait and see what will happen. I guess I'm way too curious as to what this "magical few weeks" is all about. What could he possibly gain from waiting a few weeks? (BTW, waiting on the mortgage only benefits me financially, not him). He knows I will not change my mind on the child issue.

[a4a]

I think he needs the time to cool off.

 

As for him getting angry when confronted with the issue......so did I. Because that meant I had to deal with the choice of leaving my SO over the issue.

 

The whole thing is about avoiding it. I did it....thus the wishy washy back and forth....string along I did also for quite awhile until I got the balls to face it and tell him how I really felt and gave my H the ultimatum myself.

 

.... good luck.

[Sal Paradise]

Not everyone who doesn't want kids had some childhood trauma, have a short temper, or hate children. Some people simply don't want kids. Not everyone has this need or drive to reproduce. Raising children is a huge responsibility and should not be taken lightly. I sometimes get the impression that some women (not pointing my finger at any of you) view a guy not wanting children as a sign of the guy not being committed to them, or they're irresponsible and don't want to grow up and settle down. It usually has nothing to do with either. Having a kid changes every aspect of your life forever (and not all of the changes are positive). Its not something you jump into. And unless you feel this strong desire to have them you shouldn't have any.

 

It doesn't sound like he really wants kids. If he isn't 100% sure he shouldn't have them. If I were you I wouldn't pressure him to have kids. You're taking a huge risk. If you pressure him into having a child he doesn't want he could grow to resent you and the baby. Don't you want the father of your baby to be a man who wants to be a father? Not a guy who did it to keep you and make you happy? You owe it to your child to pick a good father, don't pick an unhappy sperm donor.