How Do Wives Do It?

[newbby]

bullhunter, i have to say i think that you have taken an extreme stance as compensation. it seems that you feel that the more you hate the ow the more you are making things up to your wife. it seems your wife has forgiven you, but i am in agreement with the others here, that you have not yet forgiven yourself. those who are very angry and blameful of another in a situation are usually trying to shift some of the guilt from themselves, and i dont mean this in a derogative way to you. i do not mean that you are being weak, but i think you are feeling OVER guilty about this, and you really need to let go of it. reliving the past is the surest way to madness.

[Last Mohegan]

I wondered that as well. There seems to still be a huge amount of emotion behind the "non feelings" for the OW. It reminds me of the old saying "me thinks thou doest protest too much"... most who have moved on in their hearts and minds don't still have such enormous emotion about it.

 

bullhunter, i have to say i think that you have taken an extreme stance as compensation. it seems that you feel that the more you hate the ow the more you are making things up to your wife. it seems your wife has forgiven you, but i am in agreement with the others here, that you have not yet forgiven yourself. those who are very angry and blameful of another in a situation are usually trying to shift some of the guilt from themselves, and i dont mean this in a derogative way to you. i do not mean that you are being weak, but i think you are feeling OVER guilty about this, and you really need to let go of it. reliving the past is the surest way to madness.

[bullhunter]

Sorry to disappoint, but only the one time. And I didn't say I hated the ow, I said I didn't think of her. I don't hate her, I don't like her and never did. What get's my back-up is the attitude I have read on these boards - like from cassoria who says how much the mm love her and hides from his wife. In fact, I probably like her even less after reading all of the posts from ow than if I never had.

 

I have a lot of guilt about what I did. Most of my anger is directed at myself, and no, I haven't forgiven me. I don't know that I ever will. It was so out of character, and I was such a disappointment to myself, and my wife I'm sure.

 

I get tired of the attitudes and the hate. I know that I should quit reading here, but I've become somewhat addicted to the place. I think it rubs my nose in my own stupidity, and maybe I think I need that still at some level.

[casoria99]

Casoria, you are talking about your experience with the man you were with, and may possibly have been true for him. I doubt it, though.

 

I was a MM, and I can tell you that what you are saying has little if anything to do with how I felt or how I feel. I'm sorry I gave pain to my wife. I think about what I put her through, constantly. The only time I ever think of the OW is if my wife brings it up, or I'm stupid enough to read some postings, and get angry at the attitudes displayed toward the wives by the OW's.

 

And for the record, again, just as ManAlive said, I didn't love the OW. It was not love. I told her that I did because it was what she wanted to hear. I picked my wife because I loved her, not because she "held all the cards".

 

If I truly wanted a divorce my wife would have given me one with no bickering, no hassles. We would have parted amicably. I would have lost nothing, nor would she.

 

I notice in this forum that people think that the only thing of value worth saying or the only last word should come from a wife or a married man and in support of that union. But everyone is foolish to jump on the "I hate the other woman" bandwagon without really hearing what she has to say. Believe me, I am on the wife's side. See, I have hung out with your man, he's cooked for me, bought me gifts, held me, made love to me,

 

MM, I appreciate your candidness. I already knew that you didn't "love" me in the way that you love your wife. That is kinda obvious when the holidays and weekends come around. But I am talking about "love" in the sense of caring for another human being in general. In those moments, however fleeting, there was passion and the sex was intensified because you knew I loved you. You felt for me. So even if you were "just mad at your wife" and that's why you were "acting out," you actually believed and felt that you were in love with the OW.

 

Your wife would have not been AMICABLE while giving you a divorce. That's crap. No woman wants to be alone especially if she has been married for years. Change gets more difficult the older you get. And it would take YEARS for her to get over you, then find herself, and then feel able to go date again. And honestly, what is available for a woman who is in her 40's or 50's who is divorcing a cheating husband, when it comes to eligible men? In her mind, it's easier to keep you. The house is a lonely house if the kids are grown and she is the only one sitting in it.

 

Secondly, you would have lost something. You would have lost your position in life. Everyone would have known that you got a divorce because you couldn't keep your penis in your britches. The shame, humiliation and defeat of that would have been too much to handle for you. So by obliterating any feelings for the other woman, you are able to pick the lesser of two evils: cheaper to keep her by any means necessary. And since society has made the other woman into someone who does not deserve feelings or attention, it is rather easy for you to slither on your belly back into your bed with your wife.

 

She probably washed your semen stained underwear every week. She probably cooks you breakfast and makes your coffee when you leave in the morning. She cleans behind the toilet stools and maybe takes care of the taxes. I LIKELY WOULD NOT DO ANY OF THOSE THINGS FOR YOU. So you would have to learn to be responsible which is something that is obviously not your area of expertise.

 

Men like you don't love any women. You want your cake and eat it, too. It's wives like yours that take you back and allow you to cower behind her assaulting the other woman who did nothing but love you. But it makes the wife feel reassured and secure that you won't do it again. There is still something incredibly wrong with you if you do not feel sorry for the other woman unless, of course, your wife brings it up. Women are women, WITH FEELINGS, no matter who's name is on your life insurance.

 

I mean, every woman you come in contact with is someone's precious daughter. And if you did LIE to her, then tell the wives that so they can focus their anger on YOU and not us because the OW believed your slithering lies just like she believed that you would honor and respect her.

 

Finally, MM, don't you think that you should have some DOWNTIME? The wives take you back because of the value they place on the marriage and also on the words that come out of your yellow teeth.

 

I mean, could you just stop for a second and let everyone who is hurt manuever around you and sort their lives? Let your wife find HERSELF and then find you. It might take years MM. Do you think you could keep your penis in your pants for a few years so that your wife (and the other woman) can rebuild their hearts and lives. What makes you think that you deserve to go on? You have a false sense of security to think that it's okay for you to go on and KEEP EVERYTHING and cause so much pain in the other woman's life.

 

But you have to seal the deal with sex. You did it to the other woman and now the wife. And if it was "just sex," then why would a wife want to do anything with you. Apparently there is something to that sex, if she opens her legs to allow you anywhere close to her. I don't care if you were wearing a condom or not, did you get an AIDS test before you screwed your wife? Did you stop having sex for at least a year to see what types of diseases might pop up?

 

Of course, now since you have an OPEN marriage, did you tell her about the sexual encounters (orally and otherwise) with the other woman? Did you tell her about all of the things that the other woman did that you told her the wife didn't do.

 

(me personally, I had my MM get an AIDS test.)

 

I swear the serpent that gave Eve the apple was a middle aged married man. You run from one female to the next, and then have the audacity to say that "you are working on your marriage." You are still doing whatever YOU WANT TO DO....and in some ways get some sort of adrenalin from being able to convince any woman (wife or otherwise) that you deserve chances, love, trust, and commitment.

 

Just because you are with your wife now and feeling guilty for what you did to her does not make you a superhero or a better husband or a better man.

 

"Whatever you do to the least of my brothers (or sisters in this case), that you do unto me."

 

You are doing to her, what you did to your wife. You were angry at your wife, so you screw over a woman. Now you hate the other woman and screwing over your wife.

 

You need to learn to feel remorse for the destruction that your lies caused not just your wife but to that other woman who really thought you couldn't stand your wife. You are the one that called her all sorts of names and were there for the children. Apologize to the other woman. An apology is not going to cost you your wife, your kids, your house, laundry, your position, your job, your religion, or anything.

 

The last I checked, a good husband is a GOOD MAN. So being a good husband starts with being a good man and that's to anyone you come in contact with.

 

MM, aren't you tired of excuses and justifications for what you did? You owe everybody that you have LIED TO an apology. That might not be what a husband who got caught would do, but that's what a RESPONSIBLE MAN would do.

[BUTAFLY]

Casoria,

I enjoyed your late post. I def. agree with the apology thing. I can't wait to read reponses to this post- they should be interesting.

[Blind Illusion]

Casoria,

I enjoyed your late post. I def. agree with the apology thing. I can't wait to read reponses to this post- they should be interesting.

 

I did as well!!~

 

Very thought out. A smirk did cross my face with the serpent in the Garden of Eden being a married man. I also liked the line about women being women, with feelings regardless of whose name is on the life insurance policy. Also, I have to agree with you regarding how sometimes women can be so petty and catty with another women when, in fact, they ought not be that way. Sometimes, I often wonder , if throughout time, men actually encouraged such a thing for their own benefit.

 

I suppose I should put out a mild disclaimer saying that I know not all women nor all men are a particular way. I'm just speaking in general.

[stoopid_guy]

Also, I have to agree with you regarding how sometimes women can be so petty and catty with another women when, in fact, they ought not be that way. Sometimes, I often wonder , if throughout time, men actually encouraged such a thing for their own benefit.

 

I read an article many years ago that was talking about male/female roles in evolution and reproduction. One interesting point was that men are inclined to solve problems with brute force, where women are inclined to solve them with cunning. The article was written by a female anthropologist, by the way.

 

I don't think men are cuning enough to encourage the cattiness (and there are few things worse than being stuck in the middle of two women in an argument.) I'll admit, however, to finding it entertaining at a certain level.

[newbby]

i have to disagree stoopid guy,

i have come across quite a few men who are cunning enough to encourage and create rivalry between women, whilst making themselves appear innocent. it serves their egos very well indeed.

cassoria, that was a fantastic post, some really good points raised.

[stoopid_guy]

i have to disagree stoopid guy,

i have come across quite a few men who are cunning enough to encourage and create rivalry between women, whilst making themselves appear innocent. it serves their egos very well indeed.

No doubt, there are some like that, but I don't think they make up the majority of men. And I doubt most men who have had affairs are trying to play the two ladies against each other. Most of us would probably prefer to keep them in two entirely seperate compartments of our lives.

[newbby]

i see what you are saying. yes.

i think though that there are alot of mm who fit the narcissistic description, and possibly might be the type to enjoy the rivalry.

however, i agree that most want to keep the two as seperate as possible.

btw, i think you seem one of the rare mm who is genuine about ow, and read you saying somewhere that you are taking steps to do the right thing. so please dont take the narcissist comment personally.

[stoopid_guy]

i think though that there are alot of mm who fit the narcissistic description, and possibly might be the type to enjoy the rivalry.

 

That wouldn't surprise me at all.

 

please dont take the narcissist comment personally.

 

The best thing about LS is the chance to see things from many angles. I didn't take it personally at all.

[Guest]

Why is it that when discussion turns to the men, it's always the "lying and manipulating" man. But when I say that the woman lied and manipulated me, nobody, but nobody believes me? It Is The Truth.

 

What I did with it was shameful. What I did was shameful. I will carry that shame for the rest of my life. I will carry regret for the pain I caused my wife the rest of my life. There is no excuse for what I did, and I take full responsibility for what I did.

 

I would have liked to see the OW take responsibility for what SHE did. I started reading and writing on this forum, hoping against hope that somewhere, sometime I'd see at least one woman admit to the manipulation that went on on her side, because I doubt that the woman who manipulated me was the ONLY ONE out there to do that.

 

Bullhunter, you are no victim. You are a man, a husband, an adult and you are responsibile for YOUR ACTIONS. Speaking as an OW, if she did manipulate you, it was to try to sort through the crap that you were feeding her. She had your truths and lies to base her actions. And she loved you and wanted to be with you. No OW is responsible for what you are doing or didn't do at home. That's your wife and your vows and your issues. For you to put the pain and blame on the other woman sickens me. And if your wife is DUMB enough to keep you and throw all of her pain on the OW just to have you, she is sick, too. She is confused and lied to by YOU.

 

OW are not just used for sex by the MM. They are also used by both the husband and wife to be the one to blame so that they can work out their marriage. OW become nothing more than dumping grounds for all the pain, not just theirs, but the wives and the children of these MM.

[casoria99]

Sorry to disappoint, but only the one time. And I didn't say I hated the ow, I said I didn't think of her. I don't hate her, I don't like her and never did. What get's my back-up is the attitude I have read on these boards - like from cassoria who says how much the mm love her and hides from his wife. In fact, I probably like her even less after reading all of the posts from ow than if I never had.

 

I have a lot of guilt about what I did. Most of my anger is directed at myself, and no, I haven't forgiven me. I don't know that I ever will. It was so out of character, and I was such a disappointment to myself, and my wife I'm sure.

 

I get tired of the attitudes and the hate. I know that I should quit reading here, but I've become somewhat addicted to the place. I think it rubs my nose in my own stupidity, and maybe I think I need that still at some level.

 

You don't like me Bullhunter because I am telling you how I feel and you are reading it because I probably represent the OW in your life. It rings too familiar for you. I am not responsible for your marriage, you are. And you are a LIAR to say that you didn't like the other woman. I think that most other woman and wives are not completely dumb. If you didn't like the OW and you spoke the way that you write in this forum, then why on earth would a woman want to love you or get involved with you (even if you were SINGLE!). So whatever you told that woman, she had to be convinced that you were speaking from your heart.

 

You don't like her, that's good. The OW is nothing more than a man's weakness. And no man likes being weak. In as much as an OW likes being the weakness. So when we put our hands down and say, "casual sex is not enough" and then when the W finds out, you go running back to blame the OW and then say that "it was just sex."

 

As far as my relationship with my MM, in those moments, he did love me. Was the love greater than the risks of losing everything he built, no it wasn't. But it was love. And are there things that he is not sharing with his wife that he shared with me? Yes there were. Because in this situation, as I suspect in many, when the man gets caught, all the problems that lead up to him cheating, seem to disappear. But they aren't gone forever and eventually have to be dealt with. In my situation, as long as the wife is the VICTIM, she never has to change and my exMM will still be lonely in certain areas. But hey, he gets to take the family on vacation every year!

[newbby]

You don't like her, that's good. The OW is nothing more than a man's weakness. And no man likes being weak.

 

exactly.

mm who despise the ow are actually despising a part of themselves, the part that they associate with the ow.

[bullhunter]

You don't like me Bullhunter because I am telling you how I feel and you are reading it because I probably represent the OW in your life. It rings too familiar for you.

Lady, I don't know you. I neither like nor dislike you. The HER I spoke of in my previous posting was the ow in my life. I do not pretend that every ow is even remotely similar to the woman I had an EA with. I would appreciate it if the women on these boards would attempt to do the same.

 

I am NOT the man you had a relationship with. I don't know if that man loved you, hated you, liked you or disliked you. I don't know. I'm not him. I am me.

 

I am not responsible for your marriage, you are. And you are a LIAR to say that you didn't like the other woman.

I'm not lying. Believe what you will. When I say I didn't like her i meant: I did not appreciate her as a person. She was not someone I would ever consider as a mate at any level. I did not consider her feelings, I was neither physically attracted to her nor emotionally involved with her. Had I been those things I would not have been able to purposely use her as I did. I wanted to continue to hear from her about how great I was. She may have been lying to me at the same level I was lying to her. I don't know, I don't care - actually that's not true, I hope she was. I was a liar. I'm not now.

 

By the end, my not liking her had grown into dislike. Reading the posts here has solidified and heightened that dislike I had of her.

 

As far as my relationship with my MM, in those moments, he did love me. Was the love greater than the risks of losing everything he built, no it wasn't. But it was love.

who are you trying to convince? I don't know if it was or not. I've never talked about your situation, only my own. Maybe he did love you, maybe not. All I know is what I felt, and what I did. I did not love the woman. I also didn't MAKE love with the woman. I talked and wrote. What I said and what I wrote were lies.

[newbby]

I do not pretend that every ow is even remotely similar to the woman I had an EA with.

 

By the end, my not liking her had grown into dislike. Reading the posts here has solidified and heightened that dislike I had of her.

 

this looks like contradiction to me

[bullhunter]

this looks like contradiction to me

It does sound that way, but it's not.

 

First statement: I do not pretend that every ow is even remotely similar to the woman I had an EA with.

 

I do not think all ow are the same. I think many ow are innocently sucked into relationships by married men. It starts innocently as a friendship or even low-level flirtation. Nothing is intended beyond that on your side, and you don't realize that something is intended on the other side.

 

On the other hand, I think some ow are exactly the opposite, they begin the friendship with the purpose in mind of having a "relationship" with the married man.

 

All are not the same, not even remotely. That's the first statement.

 

The second statement:

By the end, my not liking her had grown into dislike. Reading the posts here has solidified and heightened that dislike I had of her.

 

Since reading the posts here, I've changed my opinion of women overall. I used to think that all people at core took responsibility for their own actions, and owned their own pain. I've changed my point of view. The women that I've encountered on these boards, with very few exceptions seem intent on blaming the man for everything

[newbby]

Since reading the posts here, I've changed my opinion of women overall. I used to think that all people at core took responsibility for their own actions, and owned their own pain. I've changed my point of view. The women that I've encountered on these boards, with very few exceptions seem intent on blaming the man for everything

 

and you really dont see the hypocrisy is this last paragraph?

[Buttaflyy]

Casoria,

 

It seems that in your letter you have answered your own original question. I want you to understand, that no matter what, even if the OW is also a victim, the W is not to be looked upon as weak, or pacifying of her H's behavior after the affair was found out. You asked why she would take him back. I think that in asking that, there is some hostility toward her. It's seems as if you find shame in the fact that she would again sleep with her H after he's been with another woman. I can't understand where these feelings would come from when you, the OW, has done this knowingly.

 

There's alot of talk of women being catty toward one another. Women not respecting one another, I originally brought up this point and the message was that a woman shouldn't be this way toward her sister (figuratively speaking). I agree with this. But this is the behavior I see displayed from you, the OW numerously. You address the W as if you are taunting her, telling her details of your affair with HER H, menacingly. Nowhere did YOU apologize. You were also hurt by him. The after effects of YOUR participation in her betrayal.

 

If you were an unknowing OW for a time, you are not to blame. When you found out and continued.... you either understood the repercussions or you expected you'd win him. In order for women to join together, for the hostility to end, you've gotta understand that you have to take responsibility for your part and yours only. The only victim here is the W in this threesome. What she does after you, is totally up to her.

[stoopid_guy]

The women that I've encountered on these boards, with very few exceptions seem intent on blaming the man for everything

 

I just haven't seen that. Some do (and in some cases justifiably) but I've seen more "I should have known better" than anything else.

[newbby]

Casoria,

 

It seems that in your letter you have answered your own original question. I want you to understand, that no matter what, even if the OW is also a victim, the W is not to be looked upon as weak, or pacifying of her H's behavior after the affair was found out. You asked why she would take him back. I think that in asking that, there is some hostility toward her. It's seems as if you find shame in the fact that she would again sleep with her H after he's been with another woman. I can't understand where these feelings would come from when you, the OW, has done this knowingly.

 

There's alot of talk of women being catty toward one another. Women not respecting one another, I originally brought up this point and the message was that a woman shouldn't be this way toward her sister (figuratively speaking). I agree with this. But this is the behavior I see displayed from you, the OW numerously. You address the W as if you are taunting her, telling her details of your affair with HER H, menacingly. Nowhere did YOU apologize. You were also hurt by him. The after effects of YOUR participation in her betrayal.

 

If you were an unknowing OW for a time, you are not to blame. When you found out and continued.... you either understood the repercussions or you expected you'd win him. In order for women to join together, for the hostility to end, you've gotta understand that you have to take responsibility for your part and yours only. The only victim here is the W in this threesome. What she does after you, is totally up to her.

 

i havent read the beginning of this thread and i am not about to. but it seems to me that this could be taken in two ways. one is that the op (cas) is accusing the w of being weak, in which case, i agree it is lacking in understanding, and nobody should know how it feels to be misunderstood more than an ow.

OR it could be a way of directing anger toward mm, a way of saying, "how could you forgive that a***hole, or believe him, when this is the truth of the matter".

[Buttaflyy]

i havent read the beginning of this thread and i am not about to. but it seems to me that this could be taken in two ways. one is that the op (cas) is accusing the w of being weak, in which case, i agree it is lacking in understanding, and nobody should know how it feels to be misunderstood more than an ow.

OR it could be a way of directing anger toward mm, a way of saying, "how could you forgive that a***hole, or believe him, when this is the truth of the matter".

 

There's a long post on about the 2nd or 3rd page where the OP posted. I'm referring to this, as well as plenty statements afterward. If the question is taken as how could men get away with it (which was also posted by the OP) then, my answer is, simply... because she, the OW allowed him to when she knew he had a wife and kept his secret with him.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I can't understand how one could ask the wife, how she could sleep with her H all the while, you've done it and in the process contributed to the wives betrayal. Sounds like you (OW) don't want her to take him back after he's hurt you. After things didn't work out the way you expected, now it's "why do women let men get away with this?"

 

My thoughts are that if you hadn't let him get away with it from the beginning, who knows what coulda happened?

[newbby]

There's a long post on about the 2nd or 3rd page where the OP posted. I'm referring to this, as well as plenty statements afterward. If the question is taken as how could men get away with it (which was also posted by the OP) then, my answer is, simply... because she, the OW allowed him to when she knew he had a wife and kept his secret with him.

oh yes, i agree to an extent. whilst the ow is allowing him to eat cake, he will eat cake. but most ow do not believe mm to be a cake eater when the a begins, because mostly the mm acts very confused and very emotional with her. however, i agree that unless she takes a stand for an exclusive relationship, then she is simply allowing his behaviour to continue, but she is not responsible for his actions.

Maybe it's just me, but I can't understand how one could ask the wife, how she could sleep with her H all the while, you've done it and in the process contributed to the wives betrayal. Sounds like you (OW) don't want her to take him back after he's hurt you. After things didn't work out the way you expected, now it's "why do women let men get away with this?"

yes, i dont agree with asking the wife how she could do this, either.

but i can understand any ow being angry at the mm and wife both standing together and blaming the ow, and i could understand a statement like this in that instance. it is pure frustration that the wife doesnt see how much the mm lied to the ow, and how very determined he was to have an a.

My thoughts are that if you hadn't let him get away with it from the beginning, who knows what coulda happened?

again i think you are putting undue responsibility onto the ow. mm didnt work out his marital problems, and this is why he had an a, not the other way round.

[Buttaflyy]

oh yes, i agree to an extent. whilst the ow is allowing him to eat cake, he will eat cake. but most ow do not believe mm to be a cake eater when the a begins, because mostly the mm acts very confused and very emotional with her. however, i agree that unless she takes a stand for an exclusive relationship, then she is simply allowing his behaviour to continue, but she is not responsible for his actions.

I'm in no way saying that she is responsible for his actions. I just don't see that responsibility is taken for hers. The responsible thing to do in a situation like this is to say, "your married, I'm not getting involved". When he comes crying on your shoulder, if you empathise or have an interest in him, you say, "I'll be there if you don't work things out".

I've been here before except, I didn't know initially that he was married. He was actually in a terrible relationship with his W. She was clinically insane and put him through lots of crap. In my case, when he was crying on my shoulder his reasons could have been valid. However, when I found out he was married, I had no choice but to leave him alone.

 

yes, i dont agree with asking the wife how she could do this, either.

but i can understand any ow being angry at the mm and wife both standing together and blaming the ow, and i could understand a statement like this in that instance. it is pure frustration that the wife doesnt see how much the mm lied to the ow, and how very determined he was to have an a.

 

I agree with this. I understand anger toward him. Definitely. Maybe even frustration toward her for it seeming as if she's putting most of the blame on you. But realistically, we can probably be sure that she's had her piece (and not peace ) with her cheating H. And whatever issues they had to cause the A is between them. He probably would have cheated anyway, but I choose for it not to be with me. It's up to every woman to choose. That's the only way that men wouldn't have their cake and eat it.

 

For the OW, In order to get pass the A and it's aftermath, it's important to take responsibility for your part. You have to let go of the envy and resentment toward the W. In the big scheme of things how important is this to your well being anyway?

 

again i think you are putting undue responsibility onto the ow. mm didnt work out his marital problems, and this is why he had an a, not the other way round.

How does this contribute to the OW's responsibility? The reason for him stepping out on his marriage is irrelevant to the OW. I'm not assuming that she should take responsibility for him. Just own up to her part. I really don't think I've seen this.

[newbby]

 

For the OW, In order to get pass the A and it's aftermath, it's important to take responsibility for your part. You have to let go of the envy and resentment toward the W. In the big scheme of things how important is this to your well being anyway?

 

 

 

to be honest, i really dont see or speak to alot of ow who feel anger or resentment towards the wife. i certainly never felt that myself. in fact the majority of ow feel guilty toward the wife, and feel even more angry at mm for her choice based on his lies, that was also deceptive to his wife.

it might seem hard to believe, but i experienced this myself, and i also witness similar in others.