Dealing with fiance's child - LONG

[Really_Tough_Choices]

Well, I know this topic isn't 100% suited for this forum, but I've gotten so much great advice here I figured I would post this question.

 

I am divorced and I have been dating a wonderful woman for the past year. I am 31 and she is 28. I have no children and she has a 4 year old daughter.

 

Recently we discussed marriage, and being our second marriage we spent a LOT of time going over everything and eventually decided that marriage was a good option for us.

 

She is from Japan and her EX is from Iran (they both live in Tokyo now). We agree that she should live in the US since I earn a more than her and could provide a reasonable home for her. However, when it came time to discuss her daughter we really had some problems. We did not disagree, but we had difficulty making the right choice.

 

Eventually we decided that the best option was for the daughter to stay in Japan with her EX. The daughter cannot speak English & therefore could not enter school in the US without significant long-term language training. Furthermore, the daughter already has established friends and family - ripping her out of that and staying in Japan is one thing, but ripping her out of that and moving her to America is a lot more serious. Her EX has agreed that the daughter could come to stay with us every summer for 3 months and every Christmas for 1 week.

 

HOWEVER, here are the problems. First, I recently had my first ever conversation with the EX on the phone. He screamed at me "F--k YOU - F--k America - I am happy those planes killed all of your people!!". Obviously, he's got a major problem with me and Americans as a whole.

 

So my concern is he will poison the daughter's mind towards me and America in general, thus eventually destroying her relationship with her mom (how dare mom be involved with an American!). Second, I'm quite concerned about the toll it will take on this little girl to travel 1/2 way around the world 2 times a year ALONE. Third, I am a Christian and I completely and utterly disagree with islam and it's treatment of women. However, the daughter will be raised as a strict muslim by the EX. My fiance and I both agree that we would forbid her to practice that faith in our house and that when she visits she would attend church with us, so that would be another source for great conflict as time goes on.

 

I see my options as follows.

 

1. we continue with this plan and do our best to make it work.

 

2. my fiance gives up all parental rights and trusts that her EX will remarry and give the daughter a stable, loving home - regardless of religion or feelings towards America. Essentially giving her daughter up for adoption.

 

3. we take the daughter in and deal with the financial, educational and emotional problems that it will bring - my fiance will not be able to work by law for quite a while, so it would mean I would have to take on a second job to support this instant family as well as to get a new place to live (my place only has 1 bedroom).

 

All 3 of this options have some major problems associated with them, but I see no other alternatives.

 

What do you all think?

[midori]

Wow what a dilemma. From what I understand, most Iranians in Japan are there as guest workers -- construction, etc. -- and do not have citizenship. Is your fiancee's ex different because he was married to a Japanese citizen? I ask because I wonder how likely the ex would be to move back to Iran and take the little girl with him. Which wouldn't necessarily be the worst thing in the world (close friends of mine have travelled in Iran, it is nothing like Afghanistan under the Taliban, or even Saudi Arabia. Women vote, work out of the homes and while they do wear headscarves they don't have to wear veils). But if he took her to Iran your fiancee would have absolutely no rights where her daughter is concerned.

 

If he is a strict Muslim, isn't it likely that he'll want to marry a Muslim woman? I don't think there are many in Japan ... which makes it more likely, it seems, that he'd at some point want to go back to Iran.

 

I think that your fiancee needs to decide whether or not she'll be able to relinquish her daughter to her ex. I don't think I'd be able to do that if I had a child, I think that regardless of my relationship with her father I'd be guilt-ridden at moving half-way around the world to start a new life without her. If your fiancee is OK with it, well, there's your answer. But she ought to consider the full range of possibilities, and it seems like her daughter ending up in Iran would be one of them.

 

I do think that if you & your fiancee choose to leave her daughter behind with her father that it would be highly unfair of you to insist that she be torn between two cultures & religions, forced to abandon the faith her father raises her in when she goes to visit her mother. If you and your fiancee, knowing the ex's principles & beliefs when it comes to religion & women, still choose to leave the daughter in his care, then I think you must be willing to accept the way he raises her. If you can't accept it then you shouldn't leave her behind, it would be irresponsible and selfish of you to do so. Do what will be best for the child, no matter how inconvenient that is for you.

[Tony T]

The emotional, psychological, educational, social and general welfare of this child should be a major factor in your decision. The others here are adult and prepared to handle things but she is not.

 

Her EX is a no good butthold and should not be allowed to raise this child.

 

This child should be with her mother full time. Even if it takes several years for the child to learn English, this has got to be the way it will be. Actually, young people pick up languages a lot faster than older ones so she may learn English quite fast. If she has to enter the first grade a year or two late, so be it.

 

As for the religion of the child, discuss this with the mother. Even though the girl is four, if she has been introduced to Muslim religion, seek advice from a competent psychologist on the best way to handle any transition you may see fit.

 

Keep in mind the cultural shock for both your lady and her daughter may be rough for a while but just have patience and deal with it.

 

It would be cruel and inhumane to leave this child to the devices of her raunchy scumbag father in Japan. She belongs with her mother and the intial sacrifices you make will be worth it.

 

I don't think you will have many additional expenses once the child arrives in the states. Instead of going out and getting an extra job, just go find one job that pays more.

 

I think this can all work out but you and your lady would be devastated and probably feel very guilty if you handle this matter any other way.

 

You deserve praise for thinking this out so well and your alternatives are very well articulated. I just couldn't imagine this child flying alone that far twice a year to see the mother she should be with all the time.

 

See what others have to say.

[Really_Tough_Choices]

Well I think you said it right there - we cannot accept his faith. His culture and his faith are what ultimately lead to their divorce.

 

He can stay in Japan because the daughter is a Japanese citizen and as her primary caregiver he is entitled to stay.

 

As I understand it now, the daughter would be unable to visit us for around 2 years because she is not old enough to fly alone. My fiance could not visit her because she can't leave the country until her temporary citizenship is granted. But I don't think she would go to visit anyway because it would mean seeing her EX - they had an extremly unhealthy and sometimes dangerous relationship - being an extreme muslim means that he believes that women are truly inferior to men and that hitting your wife is just "discipline" (however strangely enough, hitting your child is still considered assault).

 

But I do tend to agree with you. If it is truly in her best interest to stay in her own country, with her friends, speaking her native language - even if she's learning a religion we cannot accept - it is irresponsible to try to make her lead 2 separate lives. I also think that as the years go by and we have our own children the daughter will feel more and more like a guest in our house and not a member of the family.

[Tony T]

In your above post, I think you made a compelling argument for bringing the little girl to the U.S. to be with her mother.

 

Courts of law in all parts of the world have long held that a young child is best off with the mother.

 

I beg you to consider the total welfare of this child in your decision. At four years old, she can learn a new language, make lifelong friends, and begin a life anew with her mother, you, a new country and new brothers and sisters.

[Really_Tough_Choices]

Well.. that's also an interesting take on this subject.

 

For all practical purposes the daughter could not come here until next summer no matter what. And at that point she would still have to fly alone because as I posted in my other response, my fiance cannot leave the country until her status has been adjusted and that can take from 6 months to 1 year (after we are married).

 

Unfortunately just getting a higher paying job isn't as easy as it sounds. I am a dot com employee and there are simply no jobs out there. Especially in my part of the country.

 

This is a really difficult situation. I'm doing my best to look at it logically and not let my emotions take over, but it is really difficult.

 

Part of me wants to take her in and "save her" from her moron father, but the other part wants her to stay in her own country with her own friends and family. However, to be perfectly honest my secondary reason for wanting her to stay in her own country is that she simply is a spoiled rotten little brat and I know as a step-parent I would have no authority to discipline her at all. She is one of these kids you see screaming at the top of their lungs running through the mall breaking things, pulling clothes off of shelves, etc. The EX does not believe in disciplining a child (that is reserved for your wife) so the daughter can do whatever she pleases with no consequences. My fiance and I talked about this for a LONG time and she agrees that discipline is very important - but since she sees it as the husband's job, their daughter never was disciplined for anything.

 

And yes, I am aware that I'm facing a pretty big mess here. But that's why I'm asking for advice ;-)

[Tony T]

With each post you are revealing new details that certainly factor into this. I hope we aren't confusing you.

 

I do think a child's behavior can change and it can definitely be modified with the right techniques over a short period of time. Also, her rowdiness may very well be due to the father.

 

Exactly what does the mother want to do? If a woman does not want her daughter to be with her, you ought to look at that very closely. A woman who does not want her offspring with her may have some issues you ought to delve into. A woman who is willing to leave her daughter with a scumbag is even more suspect, in my opinion. Don't rush into any of this before you look at all parts of the puzzle a bit more.

[Really_Tough_Choices]

The mother has repeatedly told me that she sees the EX as a very good father and yet terrible husband.

 

She firmly believes that staying in Japan is the best option and the second best option is moving in with us in the US.

 

I'm starting to wonder if there is a way to "soft launch" (to use a dot com expression) the daughter's life in America. Basically, the first 2 years we follow the current plan of her visiting us, but during those 2 years we prepare for her to move here permanently.

 

That would give us time to prepare for it emotionally, financially and legally (since the EX already has legal custody and is not going to give her up, there most likely will be a legal battle).

 

She truly loves her daughter and wants what is best. That's why initially we thought allowing the daughter access to both parents was the best solution. But after really thinking about it, I can't see it as being a good solution anymore.

[sparkle]

Some good points were made about a mother willing to leave her child for a relationship.

 

This girl is only 4 yrs old...every mother I personally know is willing to sacrifice everything for a child this age. I've looked after many children when the parents have gone out (for example, an anniversary dinner or to a trip/funeral for a weekend). They have trouble being away from their child for just a day or two and always call to check up on them. I can't begin to imagine how difficult it would be to be away from your child for months at a time!!

 

You two must have an amazing relationship for her to even consider leaving her child with this extreme ex-husband of hers!!!

 

You wrote, "...my secondary reason for wanting her to stay in her own country is that she simply is a spoiled rotten little brat..."

 

Have you met this child before? Your feelings toward her sound pretty negative. How do you feel about her living with you?

 

My final question: how and where did you meet this lady anyway?

[Laurynn]

If the EX is as big of a jerk as it sounds, and is someone who hates America/Americans (and was thrilled with the tragedies in September), AND he has legal custody of the daughter, what makes anyone think he'd even CONSIDER allowing her to come live in the U.S.? My guess would be he'd put up one HELL of a fight...a fight that would be difficult when both parties live in different parts of the world, it would cost you a fortune, no doubt, and this poor little girl (as bratty as she is) would probably suffer the most.

 

Has anyone considered how hard it would be on her to only see her Mom for 13 weeks a year? That's just heartbreaking.

 

To be truthful, I can't imagine a Mom putting any man/relationship above her child. I mean no offense to you at all.....but I find it unfathomable that she'd even consider leaving her daughter in Japan.

 

Are you sure you couldn't get a decent job over there? I happen to know several people (some I went to high school with) who are working in the IT industry, in Japan..doing very nicely. What about something related but slightly different?

 

If you moved there, even though you might have a lower paying job, wouldn't your wife be able to work as well? So with 2 incomes, that would surely be enough to live on, no? And that way she could have her daughter in her life....daughter wouldn't be ripped out of her environment...would have both of her parents.

 

You said you work in 'dot com'..and that there are few jobs now. So what have you go to lose? Have you considered signing up with any Headhunter firms to see what the job prospects are like over there? It doesn't hurt to look. If you could get on with a large company/corporation, who knows, they might even help with the cost of moving you there??

 

Laurynn

[midori]

These are very good questions. I lived in Japan for a year and some of the things he has described -- in particular the way the child has been raised -- are weird.

 

Small Japanese children, typically, are extraordinarily well-behaved. The culture is geared toward gentle conformity. I think it's strange that the mother is so concerned about her daughter maintaining her native cultural ties, when clearly she wasn't instilling them in her to begin with. She feels it's the father's duty to discipline a young child? That's not the norm in Japan. Japanese mothers raise their children, the fathers are neither the primary caregivers nor are they the disciplinarians for pre-schoolers.

 

A speculative aside: you want to know why the little girl is a screaming brat? Perhaps because she's been raised in an environment where her mother was subjected to terror and abuse.

 

As I said in an earlier post, to my knowledge most Iranians living in Japan are there as guest workers in construction. They're not professionals typically, and live in rather segregated communities. They're usually only in Japan for a few years and send their money home. They're there for the high wages. Now how did the fiancee come to meet & get involved with a strict Muslim Iranian? They don't usually mingle in mainstream Japanese society. Why would HE want to get involved with a non-Muslim Japanese woman, unless she indicated to him that she was willing to uphold his values? Or is it that his gothic tendencies didn't surface until they were married?

 

Also, given that her relationship with him ended up being abusive, and his views on women are medieval, why is she willing to leave her little girl in his care?

 

From what has emerged in this discussion it seems very clear that the best thing for the daughter is to get out of her father's clutches ASAP. But I think that perhaps the mother requires some kind of intervention (psychological) herself. Her behavior and attitudes just aren't normal for a Japanese mother of a four year old girl. It occurs to me that maybe she was so traumatized by her ex that she was grateful to do anything to get away from him, even leaving her daughter behind with him. If so she'll need help dealing with the issues that remain in her life as a result of her bad marriage -- cause she's not ready to be a good parent. Please consider before you have more kids with her. Some of those issues probably were there even before, and allowed her to make such a bad choice in husbands in the first place. Because the situation as described is just not typical in Japan.

[Really_Tough_Choices]

I've been signed up with headhunters in Japan for almost 2 years and I've never even been able to get an interview. The Japanese economy is tanking and they much prefer to give jobs to native Japanese rather than gaijin - in fact the law clearly states that a foreigner MUST have a skill that the company cannot find in a Japanese worker.

 

As for the EX - I personally think his words came out of anger and jealousy at his wife having a shot at a good life. Up until that conversation my fiance had said that he and his entire family greatly admired America and all wished they could move here. I'm guessing a hot temper and a big ego had a lot more to do with his words than true feelings of hate - though I could be totally wrong & that's why I'm posting things here.

[Really_Tough_Choices]

You two must have an amazing relationship

for her to even consider leaving her child with this extreme ex-husband of hers!!!

As I said previously, my fiance described him as a horrible husband and a wonderful father. I have nothing more to go on than that. I asked her tons of questions about this situation before we moved forward and her reply was "do you honestly think I could ever leave my child with someone I didn't completely trust??"

 

And, YES we have an amazing relationship. I've never met someone I had so much in common with.

Have you met this child before? Your feelings toward her sound pretty negative. How do you feel about her living with you?

I have met the child and spent a lot of time with her. In my opinion she is a typical Tokyo child. Parents no longer raise their kids in Japan - they send them to daycare and let their kids learn behavior from strangers and other children. Everywhere I went in Tokyo there were these out-of-control little terrors running around screaming. So, it's not just the child I have negative feelings towards, its Tokyo children in general. Outside of Tokyo in smaller towns I found the kids to be wonderful. Very well behaved, polite and courteous.

My final question: how and where did you meet this lady anyway?

Like many people these days we met on the net. We were both looking for language partners and originally started out as penpals. After a certain amount of time you run out of basic subjects when just working as a language partner and you start to get personal - and thats when we started to realize how much we had in common.

[Really_Tough_Choices]

I hear what you are saying and truthfully I think that is partially the case - she was traumatized by this brute and wants to get away and simply start a new life. And I honestly can't blame her for wanting that. She got married too young, got pregnant by accident, and by the time she was 24 she was saddled with a life she never wanted. I mean, her EX wouldn't even let her go to college because "women shouldn't learn things". (again, strangely enough he thinks the daughter SHOULD go to college)

 

Then along I come - I love her deeply, I respect her, I listen to her, I care for her, I have told her I would love it if she would go to college, everyday I tell her she is my equal partner & her opinions matter as much as mine. I think in some ways she looks at a potential life with me and wants to simply escape her past. Her daughter is a daily reminder of her terrible past. I know that may sound really cold, but I'm trying to lay out the truth here because lying about it wouldn't solve anything.

 

Her behavior with her child, however, is quite typical from what I experienced in Tokyo. As I posted in my other reply. In Tokyo all I saw were out-of-control kids running, screaming, and generally being little brats. This is because moms in Tokyo don't actually raise their kids anymore - they send them to daycare. Outside of Tokyo I found a totally different kind of kid - well behaved, quiet, courteous and just plain nice.